"Fresh agony for the McCanns"
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Portuguese Police Investigation :: McCanns v Dr Gonçalo Amaral + ECHR
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
aquila wrote:Oh HKP, no-one of any credibility was called into the Portuguese court by Team McCann.HKP wrote:Sorry Mirage but KM didn't have her son make a statement to police therefore your example is not really relevant i.e he was not called into court and confirmed the story therefore committing perjuryMirage wrote:I don't want to get into the Smith sighting palaver. However, I just wanted to say in response to HKP (without drawing down all the associated quote) that KH certainly had no compunction in coming out with that cock and bull story about the school bus which implicated her son. And this was done quite brazenly in a courtroom.
It's just an observation about the vagaries of human behaviour when in a bit of a fix.
Indeed! A sad and motley crew, who only made things worse.
pennylane- Posts : 2770
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
The difference between the two is nobody asked him to make a statement to the police stating he heard that story on the school bus radio. Mr Smith had his daughter make a statement to police in a world renowned case, and asked her to blatantly lie?Mirage wrote:Exactly. And you have to wonder at how this would have been received by the other parents, who in turn would have questioned their puzzled offspring, who may or may not have formed an opinion of their classmate as a result. They may have challenged him or kept an awkward silence. Most unhealthy either way.aquila wrote:I'd love someone to quote the precise radio programme, apparently aired on school-run time on a school bus with all the kids sitting ever so quietly so they could listen to the news.Mirage wrote:I don't want to get into the Smith sighting palaver. However, I just wanted to say in response to HKP (without drawing down all the associated quote) that KH certainly had no compunction in coming out with a cock and bull story about her son and the school bus in a courtroom.
It's just an observation about the vagaries of human behaviour when in a bit of a fix.
Then there's the bus driver, who may or may not have a radio on. The bus company, who may or may not have a view about driver concentration or awareness of behaviour/safety of his young charges. The teachers will also have become aware of this and discussed the implausibility of the whole thing.
Finally, for anyone to be talking of GA's theories on a British radio station during the years of Omerta is inconceivable.
All in all, a provable lie, but the onus shifted onto a child's shoulders. Just dreadful.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Realist wrote:A hasty decision to bury his daughter and concoct a kidnapping fable in response to an accident which occurred earlier in the evening. Why would he feel the need to turn an accident into a potential murder enquiry, Suzy.suzyjohnson wrote:
. I think the most likely explanation would be that GM made a hasty decision in response to an accident which occurred earlier on the evening of May 3 rd.
I don't know whether you are aware of the fact, but most people who commit crimes where a person is killed attempt to make them appear as accidents, not t'uther way round.
An accident in the sense that what occurred was (most likely) not intentional. I don't mean accident in the legal sense of the distinction between accidental death and manslaughter.
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suzyjohnson- Posts : 1209
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
@ HKP I want to make this perfectly clear to you: I do not have a view on the Smith statements. There are too many variables involved. I just let them sit there and know that they will find their rightful place in the narrative eventually.
My interest is in observing human behaviour. And the degree to which KH used her child for her own interests - thereby involving him in a provable lie - is instructive as to how far some desperate people will sometimes go.
You seemed to have drawn an arbitrary line beyond which you thought a parent would not go . I am merely demonstrating that your theory does not always hold in every case.
My interest is in observing human behaviour. And the degree to which KH used her child for her own interests - thereby involving him in a provable lie - is instructive as to how far some desperate people will sometimes go.
You seemed to have drawn an arbitrary line beyond which you thought a parent would not go . I am merely demonstrating that your theory does not always hold in every case.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Isn't it true that after a meeting with TM Mr. Smith no longer believes he saw Gerry carrying a child?
So was he lying when he said it was Gerry or was he lying when he said it wasn't Gerry?
So was he lying when he said it was Gerry or was he lying when he said it wasn't Gerry?
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
'no-one of any credibility was called into the Portuguese court by Team McCann.'
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Not one of their holiday 'buddies' in April/May 2007 was called into ANY Portuguese courtroom, by Team McCan't!
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Not one of their holiday 'buddies' in April/May 2007 was called into ANY Portuguese courtroom, by Team McCan't!
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
whodunit wrote:Isn't it true that after a meeting with TM Mr. Smith no longer believes he saw Gerry carrying a child?
So was he lying when he said it was Gerry or was he lying when he said it wasn't Gerry?
Maybe neither.
As far as I know, Mr Smith never said the man he saw (briefly and in the dark) was definitely Gerry. He said he recognised his way of walking and carrying a child when he saw him on television in September 2007.
Mr Smith said the man he saw resembled Gerry. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. In that situation it might be very difficult to be absolutely certain.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
I don't understand your logic, either it was an accident, or it wasn't an accident. The Oxford dictionary definition of accident is 'an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.'suzyjohnson wrote:
An accident in the sense that what occurred was (most likely) not intentional.
If the aforementioned is what transpired with the McCann's daughter, why would they feel the need to dispose of her body and concoct a kidnapping fable, thereby turning an accident into a potential murder enquiry. Accidents aren't criminally indictable, disposing of bodies and concocting kidnapping fables most definitely are.
Do you suppose the McCanns are people who enjoy 'living on the edge' and getting their rocks off by risking imprisonment, jeopardising their careers, their financial assets and the custody of their children in order to lead the authorities on a wild goose chase. Maybe it was a dare, eh.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
suzyjohnson wrote:whodunit wrote:Isn't it true that after a meeting with TM Mr. Smith no longer believes he saw Gerry carrying a child?
So was he lying when he said it was Gerry or was he lying when he said it wasn't Gerry?
Maybe neither.
As far as I know, Mr Smith never said the man he saw (briefly and in the dark) was definitely Gerry. He said he recognised his way of walking and carrying a child when he saw him on television in September 2007.
Mr Smith said the man he saw resembled Gerry. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. In that situation it might be very difficult to be absolutely certain.
If he wasn't sure he shouldn't have taken the trouble to make a police report identifying Gerry.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Realist wrote:I don't understand your logic, either it was an accident, or it wasn't an accident. The Oxford dictionary definition of accident is 'an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.'suzyjohnson wrote:
An accident in the sense that what occurred was (most likely) not intentional.
If the aforementioned is what transpired with the McCann's daughter, why would they feel the need to dispose of her body and concoct a kidnapping fable, thereby turning an accident into a potential murder enquiry. Accidents aren't criminally indictable, disposing of bodies and concocting kidnapping fables most definitely are.
Do you suppose the McCanns are people who enjoy 'living on the edge' and getting their rocks off by jeopardising their careers, their financial assets and the custody of their children in order to lead the authorities on a wild goose chase. Maybe it was a dare, eh.
Of course not.
If, for example, the McCanns had given Madeleine a sedative on the evening of May 3 rd, their intention would have been that she should sleep soundly whilst they dined out with their friends.
If Madeleine then had an accident, like falling from a sofa, that would be an accident.
However, if she had been given a sedative, and her drowsiness had contributed to the accident, then that, presumably would be classed as manslaughter if she had died as a result of the accident.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
whodunit wrote:suzyjohnson wrote:whodunit wrote:Isn't it true that after a meeting with TM Mr. Smith no longer believes he saw Gerry carrying a child?
So was he lying when he said it was Gerry or was he lying when he said it wasn't Gerry?
Maybe neither.
As far as I know, Mr Smith never said the man he saw (briefly and in the dark) was definitely Gerry. He said he recognised his way of walking and carrying a child when he saw him on television in September 2007.
Mr Smith said the man he saw resembled Gerry. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. In that situation it might be very difficult to be absolutely certain.
If he wasn't sure he shouldn't have taken the trouble to make a police report identifying Gerry.
Mr Smith had already given a witness statement about the man he had seen on May 3 rd. He added to that statement when he saw GM on television in September, that in his opinion the man he saw might have been Gerry. If he began to doubt himself later, there could be many reasons for this.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
suzyjohnson wrote:
Of course not.
If, for example, the McCanns had given Madeleine a sedative on the evening of May 3 rd, their intention would have been that she should sleep soundly whilst they dined out with their friends.
If Madeleine then had an accident, like falling from a sofa, that would be an accident.
Okay, but why would this necessitate them disposing of her body and concocting a kidnapping fable???
However, if she had been given a sedative, and her drowsiness had contributed to the accident, then that, presumably would be classed as manslaughter if she had died as a result of the accident.
If someone had laced her up with an overdose of drugs and she died as a consequence, this would be classified as manslaughter. If someone gave her a mild sedative, causing drowsiness, it is unlikely she would get in a position to incur an accident. Even in the event that she did, it would be a very difficult task to prove that it was the sedative that caused her to incur an accident. Neither of the two examples you have quoted would necessitate the need to dispose of her body and concoct a kidnapping fable.
The type of example that would necessitate the aforementioned is if she had been whacked and incurred severe trauma culminating in her death. That would be classified as murder or manslaughter, accident wouldn't even enter into the equation. If the McCanns were instrumental in their daughter's death, it most definitely wasn't an accident. Accidental deaths do not warrant disposing of bodies etc.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
suzyjohnson wrote:
If, for example, the McCanns had given Madeleine a sedative on the evening of May 3 rd, their intention would have been that she should sleep soundly whilst they dined out with their friends.
This is critical. Imagine the scenario if they had sedated her (not just Calpol!) :
The McCanns return from their evening out - they find poor Madeleine on the floor. She has passed away. The horror, panic, grief and shock would be immense. This is not the time for arcane deliberations on the Portuguese laws of negligent homicide. This is sheer emotion. What will they do? Poor Maddie is gone - there will be an autopsy. Tests will also be run on the twins. All 3 will show traces of sedative.
In that situation, the laws don't matter. Accident or manslaughter - totally irrelevant. The McCanns (both doctors) will be struck off back home. Guaranteed. Social Services will almost certainly get involved in the UK and they might very well lose the twins. Especially if there was a history of abandoning them on most nights of the holiday. The last thing on their minds is whether they face charges in Portugal. What they KNOW they face is the loss of their job, the loss of their income, and quite likely the loss of the twins. All that on top of the devastating and sudden death of their lovely 3-year old daughter.
For all that you might think of the McCanns and how they have behaved, that night is a night that nobody would wish on their worst enemy. They were plunged into hell, and had to make a decision. If they truly did hide the body and construct the story, it's an incredible decision. Which in turn is what has made the case so fascinating for everyone for 9 whole years. An astonishing decision, but one they might well have made...
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Thing is no sedating drugs were amongst the medications found ?
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Roidininki wrote:Thing is no sedating drugs were amongst the medications found ?
That may well be the case. The sedation is just a theory (backed up a bit by Gerry's famous "tell", and the twins inability to wake during the ensuing chaos). But IF they did hide the body, then it can only be because they feared what an autopsy would show. Sedation and a fall fits the bill. Other theories have been put forward (ad nauseam) but require much more sinister and complex back-stories. Amaral seemed to come down on the side of sedation as the simplest and most plausible explanation.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
I have always been drawn towards this line of reasoning.Bishop Brennan wrote:suzyjohnson wrote:
If, for example, the McCanns had given Madeleine a sedative on the evening of May 3 rd, their intention would have been that she should sleep soundly whilst they dined out with their friends.
This is critical. Imagine the scenario if they had sedated her (not just Calpol!) :
The McCanns return from their evening out - they find poor Madeleine on the floor. She has passed away. The horror, panic, grief and shock would be immense. This is not the time for arcane deliberations on the Portuguese laws of negligent homicide. This is sheer emotion. What will they do? Poor Maddie is gone - there will be an autopsy. Tests will also be run on the twins. All 3 will show traces of sedative.
In that situation, the laws don't matter. Accident or manslaughter - totally irrelevant. The McCanns (both doctors) will be struck off back home. Guaranteed. Social Services will almost certainly get involved in the UK and they might very well lose the twins. Especially if there was a history of abandoning them on most nights of the holiday. The last thing on their minds is whether they face charges in Portugal. What they KNOW they face is the loss of their job, the loss of their income, and quite likely the loss of the twins. All that on top of the devastating and sudden death of their lovely 3-year old daughter.
For all that you might think of the McCanns and how they have behaved, that night is a night that nobody would wish on their worst enemy. They were plunged into hell, and had to make a decision. If they truly did hide the body and construct the story, it's an incredible decision. Which in turn is what has made the case so fascinating for everyone for 9 whole years. An astonishing decision, but one they might well have made...
But.. but... somehow... It doesn't seem like enough to warrant the massive establishment help right from the start.
I don't know, but somehow this seems a bit deeper.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Yes of course that's the most acceptable reason for disposing of evidence that a person has met with an accidental death , one where on no account must a postmortem be performed upon. Self preservation would be paramount .Bishop Brennan wrote:Roidininki wrote:Thing is no sedating drugs were amongst the medications found ?
That may well be the case. The sedation is just a theory (backed up a bit by Gerry's famous "tell", and the twins inability to wake during the ensuing chaos). But IF they did hide the body, then it can only be because they feared what an autopsy would show. Sedation and a fall fits the bill. Other theories have been put forward (ad nauseam) but require much more sinister and complex back-stories. Amaral seemed to come down on the side of sedation as the simplest and most plausible explanation.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Roidininki wrote:Thing is no sedating drugs were amongst the medications found ?
I think anyone clever enough to disappear a 3 year old and any forensic trace of her could easily get rid of small bits of evidence.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
There would have been an awful lot of work to be done after the discovery ?
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
People are talking about what might be in the book,
If Amaral focusses on the timeline I don't see how this is useless, he must think he can prove the timeline is bollocks and proves an abduction isn't possible.
I also don't see the point about arguing about smithman, if he can prove the Mccann's are lying about what they say happened then any other possible fabrications or innacuracies would be secondary. Any investigation that suspects them of involvement needs to show they are lying first. I would have thought he still has some unique insight as the head of the investigation at the time, he has said what was written in the first book was just one part of the investigation. So I am looking forward to it, i hope it's ready to be printed.
If Amaral focusses on the timeline I don't see how this is useless, he must think he can prove the timeline is bollocks and proves an abduction isn't possible.
I also don't see the point about arguing about smithman, if he can prove the Mccann's are lying about what they say happened then any other possible fabrications or innacuracies would be secondary. Any investigation that suspects them of involvement needs to show they are lying first. I would have thought he still has some unique insight as the head of the investigation at the time, he has said what was written in the first book was just one part of the investigation. So I am looking forward to it, i hope it's ready to be printed.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
The Roidininki wrote:There would have been an awful lot of work to be done after the discovery ?
That's one of the reasons people think the 'discovery' was staged, all the preperations done at least a day before. Also if all the tapas lot were involved then 'many hands make light work'.
If the new book looks at the timeline that they ALL agreed on and show it can't possibly be true, what are they covering up?
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
They had several days available.Roidininki wrote:There would have been an awful lot of work to be done after the discovery ?
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
I'm not going along with that tho , there's too much involved for them all to be acting.
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Re: "Fresh agony for the McCanns"
Roidininki wrote:Thing is no sedating drugs were amongst the medications found ?
In the McCanns apartment only though. I don't recall the other apartments being searched, nothing to say medication was not present in the other apartments.
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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Portuguese Police Investigation :: McCanns v Dr Gonçalo Amaral + ECHR
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