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What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

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Which of the following do you think the evidence now suggests?

1% 1% 
[ 1 ]
5% 5% 
[ 4 ]
9% 9% 
[ 7 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
4% 4% 
[ 3 ]
15% 15% 
[ 12 ]
56% 56% 
[ 45 ]
1% 1% 
[ 1 ]
3% 3% 
[ 2 ]
6% 6% 
[ 5 ]
 
Total Votes : 80

Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Cmaryholmes on 16.03.16 12:18

Doesn't the time line scribbled on Madeleine's colouring book suggest a hurried panic ? Having said that, maybe that was contrived to look that way.
Just a thought.

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 12:22

@April28th wrote:I went for 30th, I find Fatima da Silva's account accurate as it was given on the 8th of May, and describes accurately what Madeleine was wearing in the 'last photo', which she couldn't have gotten from the photo itself as it wasn't yet doing the rounds.

As to the Payne discrepancy, I think that it, as with the Oldfield 'check' was retrofitted to the story to cover any chance of their dna being found inside the apartment (for whatever reason..).
An indication but hardly conclusive.  I offer you the following for further consideration..


Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada - witness statment 8th May 2007

As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description.

madeleine by Kate McCann

She was wearing an outfit I’d bought especially for her holiday: a peach-coloured smock top from Gap and some white broderie-anglaise shorts from Monsoon ...



Hardly an accurate description of Madeleine's appearance is it?  Nor does her statement fit in with Gerry McCann's claim that his wife, during the daytime, always left with the children by the patio door which he locked from the inside and then left by the front door.  The witness claims to have seen KM + 3 trotting off to the Paynes abode with their lunch, shortly followed by Gerry McCann. 

As for your comment about DNA - I don't think anything can be deduced by the presence of any of the groups DNA in the McCann apartment.  They were on holiday as a group, only to be expected that they would leave a scent wherever they trod.

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by April28th on 16.03.16 12:40

Re the DNA, I mean to say that it was a contingency thing, to show that they'd definitely been in the apartment, and that it wasn't suspicious that they had. We didn't have such statements from other players in the story - clearly they needed to make the statement for some obfuscatory reason.

ETA - on this point you could also argue about the fact that a lot of people went through the apartment after the 'abduction'. I think that's why these two stand out to me, they're quite redundant otherwise (except as alibis).

Regarding the outfit, there was no occasion we are aware of on which she wore a skirt, however she says she was just a meter away, from which perspective (her being taller) she could've mistaken the 'smock top' for a dress/skirt. I know I certainly don't know the distinction between smock top and dress. But we know she wore trousers when they arrived, pink shorts for tennis (if that was even taken on the holiday), so the 'skirt' interpretation could only belong to this outfit IMO, unless you're saying the sighting was completely imagined (in which case why?).
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 12:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:  I have also seen a case made that there was no crèche at all on the Sunday, I do not find it persuasive, but there are some arguments in support of that.  

I agree, there's no earthly reason to suppose the creche facilities were closed on a Sunday, Saturday yes, because that was change-over day.  I think the myth was most likely borne out of Amy Tierney's (that name again) witness statement taken on 6th May 2007 (translated by none other than Robert Murat ? )..

'The hours of the club are from 09.00 to 12.30 and from 14.30 to 17.30, the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service.'

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by HelenMeg on 16.03.16 13:37

An interesting thread and good to read everyone's interpretation of different events and how they have arrived at their beliefs.

Another small thing leading me to my own belief is that the only time I have seen raw grief out of KM is when she had to stand next to GM on
4th May (I think 4th May) as he read a statement to the press. She wears the grey T shirt and she looks wild and slightly out of control. Like she needs to be kept firmly in grip.
She appears (to me) slightly defiant and just 'raw'.  It looks to me like she is still coming to terms with what happened and 'they' need to control her so that she conforms to the 'abduction' scenario.
For me , this fits in with 'accident' on 3rd, more than 'accident' earlier in the week. I think there are persuasive arguments in either direction

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.03.16 14:20

@HelenMeg wrote:An interesting thread and good to read everyone's interpretation of different events and how they have arrived at their beliefs.

Another small thing leading me to my own belief is that the only time I have seen raw grief out of KM is when she had to stand next to GM on
4th May (I think 4th May) as he read a statement to the press. She wears the grey T shirt and she looks wild and slightly out of control. Like she needs to be kept firmly in grip.
She appears (to me) slightly defiant and just 'raw'.  It looks to me like she is still coming to terms with what happened and 'they' need to control her so that she conforms to the 'abduction' scenario.
For me , this fits in with 'accident' on 3rd, more than 'accident' earlier in the week. I think there are persuasive arguments in either direction
Goodness, I have seen real, deep, powerful, uncontrollable, unconsolable grief and distress on many occasions, face to face and on the TV etc., but this performance (yes, it was on 4th May) doesn't to me look anything like it.

Yet I have many times seen unbridled joy and happiness many times since, on the very same face.

I can only once remember seeing real distress and tearfulness on Kate McCann's face, and that was on a TV interview where the interviewer dwelt rather too long for Kate's comfort on the claim that Madeleine and Sean had been crying the night before she was allegedly abducted. And kept on asking her questions about it. 

Kate broke down, on the one and only occasion I have seen this happen to her, she began to be very tearful and distressed, and then said something very disturbing indeed, saying that in different circumstances she would have shaken Madeleine and demanded to know: "What do you mean? What do you mean you were crying last night?"

This was accompanied by Kate McCann physically demonstrating to the interviewer how she would have got hold of her and shaken her. It looked on TV like she was shaking a rag doll.

I was absolutely stupefied when I first saw this. I thought to myself: "How could any parent walking this earth actually think of interrogating a young infant like this, as if she had just committed some deeply sinful act, of demanding answers from her and shaking her violently like that?"

I shall never forget my reaction when I first saw that. I can't now find the clip. Does anyone here know where to find it?

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 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Mariita on 16.03.16 14:43

Yes, that interview was terrible - what a strange thing to do and say
Can't link right now, but it's on youtube type "Kate and Gerry McCann analysis of NVC "One Year On"

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by MRNOODLES on 16.03.16 15:09

@garfy wrote:
 [i think  also someone forgot to gemmie the window no matter how you plan something always goes wrong]


Or wasn't able to perhaps, because when they went to do the deed.  Gerry was gassing in the street?
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 15:42

@Mariita wrote:Yes, that interview was terrible - what a strange thing to do and say
Can't link right now, but it's on youtube type "Kate and Gerry McCann analysis of NVC "One Year On"
Is this it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UezSc5jnuQU

Would be more helpful if there is footage of the actual interview, rather than this analysis which, for me, is distorted by a rather poor rendition of John Hurt playing John Merrick.  It is however interesting to observe their body language - if it wasn't so serious, their words and actions could be a take from a comedy sketch show.

Do you know when and where this interview took place?

ETA:  @Mariita - sorry, you beat me to it!  smilie

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Mariita on 16.03.16 16:45

Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 16.03.16 16:58

@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Mariita on 16.03.16 17:30

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
She had to do something with her arms and hands as Cuddle Cat had escaped from her lap by 2009...
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 16.03.16 17:38

@Mariita wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
She had to do something with her arms and hands as Cuddle Cat had escaped from her lap by 2009...
What about Gerry's crotch? She always had her hand there like something was about to fall off.
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by hentie on 16.03.16 17:40

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
She had to do something with her arms and hands as Cuddle Cat had escaped from her lap by 2009...
What about Gerry's crotch? She always had her hand there like something was about to fall off.
 Maybe he's in need of control....bit like the joystick of a plane  big grin
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 16.03.16 17:45

@hentie wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
She had to do something with her arms and hands as Cuddle Cat had escaped from her lap by 2009...
What about Gerry's crotch? She always had her hand there like something was about to fall off.
 Maybe he's in need of control....bit like the joystick of a plane  big grin
  spit coffee
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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Nina on 16.03.16 18:20

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@hentie wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Thankyou Get'em Gonçalo for adding the link  thumbup

@Verdi No problems! It really is a special clip, what a performance...
She also did the same shaking demonstration on the Oprah Winfrey show.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/kate-mccann-slapping-and-shaking.html
She had to do something with her arms and hands as Cuddle Cat had escaped from her lap by 2009...
What about Gerry's crotch? She always had her hand there like something was about to fall off.
 Maybe he's in need of control....bit like the joystick of a plane  big grin
  spit coffee
puke

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 20:19

Ever so slightly off piste but I think this is worthy of another airing..



Dr Christian Ludke - Criminal Psychologist


Interviewer: You have since early on warned that behaviour of Gerry and Kate McCann is pointing towards them being involved, what had made you feel that way?


Ludke: In the latest years I have often been in contact with parents who had lost their child due to a crime. They are under massive shock, were helpless, were insecure, withdrawing themselves. They have an inner struggle, blaming themselves for possibly not have looked enough after their child.


Interviewer: Was it different with the McCanns?


Ludke: They live completely different, often harmonic. Already after a few days they went jogging, as if that was a normal thing to do, they always came together. These parents took matters into their own hands instead of leaving matters in the hands of the police. They distanced themselves from their two other children by going on a European tour, that to me is very strange.


Interviewer: Maybe it was an accident?


Ludke: No. In such a case, after the first shock they would have trusted the police. Both parents are doctors, in case of an accident they would have tried to get help. It is even more unrealistic that of all people two doctors would leave 3 children alone in a strange environment, even more at night. I have many doctors as patients. As professionals they know all that can happen to children, and as parents they are overly protective.


Interviewer: What could have been the motive, to disappear their own daughter?


Ludke: There are parents who have little to no emotional binding with a child. Often such a child is considered a burden, that is treated in a brutal or perverse way. The most known is the Munchhausen-by proxy-Syndrome: The mother hurts the child until it is almost not alive anymore and then calls for the police because she herself has a huge wish for attention.


Interviewer: Do you think it is possible that Madeleine’s parents have killed Madeleine together and hidden her?


Ludke: I believe both have perpetrator knowledge.


Interviewer: You mean, the McCanns have planned the death of their daughter?


Ludke: Yes, it is possible that they have planned the act for a long time, at least in must have been in their minds often and they must have spoken about it together. Otherwise they would now be contradicting each others.


Interviewer: When parents are guilty of killing their child, do they block that out of their minds?


Ludke: not likely. Both are very much conscious, give interviews, travel. It is for them easier to lie than to tell the truth.
One can rule out a psychoses. Many things are pointing towards mentally disturbed. The children of the McCanns were conceived artificially, that can lead to problems in parenthood. Maybe a lack of self esteem that is not often talked about. Maybe the child had to die for a problem that had been going on for many years.


Interviewer: But the McCanns seem perfect and loving parents.


Ludke: That image to the outside world can be due to a guilt mechanism when on a media campaign, and to distract from the real problem.


Interviewer: Why do they not go back to Great Britain?


Ludke: That also speaks against them, when someone looses a child they want to be with loved ones in a trusted surrounding. When they continue to stay on that resort, there were something terrible happened the worse that can happen to a parent, being loosing a child, that points towards a permanent survival instinct, images of what happened must pop up when being there. That the McCanns do not return home, where they also can have memories of happy times with their children can be a way out, to not be de-connected with what they have done.


Interviewer: The world thinks it is impossible that these parents can be guilty.


Ludke: the media are probably been taken on by the McCanns. Very soon they have been thinking of themselves instead of of the child. De parents were treated like the Beckhams. In his Internet diary the father writes almost daily about that and irrelevant/banal things, which shirt he was wearing, what the weather is like. That isn’t a father that is worried. Statistically 70 percent of all the violence against children is caused by the parents, family members or friends. That has unfortunately not been looked into. The Portuguese police was treated very unfairly when pointing towards that.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DR_CHRISTIAN_LUDKE.htm

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 22:51

Having again watched the illustrious double acts appearance on the Oprah Winfrey show, I'm reminded of the McCanns audacious arrogance, flying in the face of all reason.  For a start, who or what the flippin' heck prompted them to agree to appear - Madeleine did not disappear in the US, there has never been any indication either by the official investigation/s or any other source to suggest she might have been taken to the US.  So why exactly did they take the road show across the pond to flaunt their all time best golden raspberry award performance?

If ever there was proof required that this whole charade is nothing but a soap opera of epic proportions, this appearance on Oprah Winfrey is it.  Gerry McCann displaying his impatience and supercilious sneer before a world audience to perfection and the missus so adept at that rigid painted look of woe, I think she's permanently stuck like it.  They've been play acting for so long it's become second nature.

Even still promoting the broken shutter and open window fabrication?  When you break it all down, they really are quite unbelievable - literally and metaphorically.   How anyone could ever have been taken in by their deceit I will never understand.

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.03.16 23:31

@Verdi wrote:...and the missus so adept at that rigid painted look of woe, I think she's permanently stuck like it. 
There has, though, been the occasional exception...



...that proves the rule

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 23:39

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:...and the missus so adept at that rigid painted look of woe, I think she's permanently stuck like it. 
There has, though, been the occasional exception...



...that proves the rule
An act of ventriloquism..

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 16.03.16 23:50

Alas, absence of photographs can never be looked on as evidence of a crime but for me it sure sets off a few alarm bells.  A good indication that something was amiss after taking the photograph by the pool (commonly known as the last photograph - which in retrospect probably was only not the recorded date and time).

Looking for something specific in KM's autobiography 'madeleine - mini me', I came across her story about Madeleine arriving at the Tapas one afternoon with the rest of the creche children and sammy snake - but no photograph?  She emphasizes how she rushed to get her camera to capture Madeleine on the tennis court clutching tennis ball and the last photograph allegedly taken on 3rd May, yet all these other charming scenes featuring Madeleine and/or the twins - nothing!

It's just not natural parent behaviour.

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Verdi on 17.03.16 12:13

                  

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by sar on 17.03.16 12:28

@Verdi wrote:                  
+1 Verdi

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by April28th on 17.03.16 13:37

@Verdi wrote:
@April28th wrote:I went for 30th, I find Fatima da Silva's account accurate as it was given on the 8th of May, and describes accurately what Madeleine was wearing in the 'last photo', which she couldn't have gotten from the photo itself as it wasn't yet doing the rounds.

As to the Payne discrepancy, I think that it, as with the Oldfield 'check' was retrofitted to the story to cover any chance of their dna being found inside the apartment (for whatever reason..).
An indication but hardly conclusive.  I offer you the following for further consideration..


Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada - witness statment 8th May 2007

As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description.

madeleine by Kate McCann

She was wearing an outfit I’d bought especially for her holiday: a peach-coloured smock top from Gap and some white broderie-anglaise shorts from Monsoon ...



Hardly an accurate description of Madeleine's appearance is it?  Nor does her statement fit in with Gerry McCann's claim that his wife, during the daytime, always left with the children by the patio door which he locked from the inside and then left by the front door.  The witness claims to have seen KM + 3 trotting off to the Paynes abode with their lunch, shortly followed by Gerry McCann. 

As for your comment about DNA - I don't think anything can be deduced by the presence of any of the groups DNA in the McCann apartment.  They were on holiday as a group, only to be expected that they would leave a scent wherever they trod.

This clip also backs up what I said further up the page in response to you, Verdi. Even Gerry and Kate (Kate by proxy not correcting it) describe a 'dress' when describing the last photo. You're quite correct in quoting it was a smock top and shorts, but I'd wager Gerry (like myself) just described it as a dress not knowing the correct term. And from Fatima's perspective, she could've either seen it as a dress because of her height, or it got described as a dress in translation.

Either way, this was the only day she wore anything even resembling a dress, so I take it as accurate personally.

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Re: What happened to Madeleine? - A poll to assess recent evidence

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 17.03.16 13:45

Thank you for posting that video clip April28th, I hadn't seen it before.

If that's supposed to be Gerry, Madeleine and Kate then where were the twins?
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