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FOI Request to Op Grange - "A full murder investigation team" Mm11

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FOI Request to Op Grange - "A full murder investigation team"

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Post by Nina on 12.03.16 20:09

So the M word as in the K word resulting in the D word is now permissible. And a 'full Murder Investigation' not just in passing let's have a glance. Has GA been notified of this?

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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 20:12

Well..let's see if that quote makes the papers in the morning?

I'd been expecting her body to be 'discovered'to cap off OG by the end of this year. Only wondering whether there will be a cover story/exoneration for them as part of this 9 year deal or they'll go down and take others with them?

Cat amongst the pigeons..
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 20:13


I'm a tiny bit confused. Surely this can't mean there were only 4 people involved in OP Grange during the period in question. This answer seems to imply that there was a 4 member 'Murder Investigation Team' off shoot within OP Grange, but the FOI question didn't ask about any sub-committees, it asked about the numbers of staff within OP Grange as a whole. What am I missing?
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 20:15

^It's just two days they're looking at, perhaps that explains it. Be curious to know what they were investigating over new years..
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 20:18

^^I know I am accustomed to the US way of date formatting but that looks more like a month to me not two days. November 30- December 31,  2015. EDIT: Nevermind, I see the petitioner is requesting info for those specific dates. Why, might I ask? Still, while 4 staff members might make sense on NYE, it's still a question for November.
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 20:20

Right you are, I guess my eyes are still recovering from that flash bang...
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 20:21

April28th wrote:Right you are, I guess my eyes are still recovering from that flash bang...

No, you were right, I think, see my edit. 'Respectively' implies queries for those specific dates. ODD.
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 20:35

I think so. And if I am reading correctly, it means 1DC, 2DS and however many make up a murder investigation unit - not sure why its unspecified.
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 20:47

April28th wrote:I think so. And if I am reading correctly, it means 1DC, 2DS and however many make up a murder investigation unit - not sure why its unspecified.

It looks like whoever answered the query took the opportunity to disclose the existence of a murder unit within OPG since, as you say, the petitioner didn't specify any particular unit but asked about the operation as a whole.
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 21:29

@whodunit wrote:

I'm a tiny bit confused. Surely this can't mean there were only 4 people involved in OP Grange during the period in question. This answer seems to imply that there was a 4 member 'Murder Investigation Team' off shoot within OP Grange, but the FOI question didn't ask about any sub-committees, it asked about the numbers of staff within OP Grange as a whole. What am I missing?
let me try this a second time, cos if it happens a second time, I have a lot more info than I did the first time.  such is life.



4 people on OG for 1 month.

Murder investigation teams deal with abducted people.
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 21:40

Elça Craig wrote:
@whodunit wrote:

I'm a tiny bit confused. Surely this can't mean there were only 4 people involved in OP Grange during the period in question. This answer seems to imply that there was a 4 member 'Murder Investigation Team' off shoot within OP Grange, but the FOI question didn't ask about any sub-committees, it asked about the numbers of staff within OP Grange as a whole. What am I missing?
let me try this a second time, cos if it happens a second time, I have a lot more info than I did the first time.  such is life.



4 people on OG for 1 month.

Murder investigation teams deal with abducted people.


Yes, but according to the website of the Met Police, it's a little more involved than just 'abducted people'. There has to be special circumstances..



Homicide and Serious Crime
The Homicide and Serious Crime Command is responsible for the investigation of homicide and other serious crimes in London.

Murder Investigation Teams investigate:


  • All murder, manslaughter and infanticide offences;
  • Deaths within the workplace or mass disaster where culpability for the loss of life is likely to be an issue in criminal court
  • Attempted murder where the evidence of intent is unambiguous or where a risk assessment identifies substantive risk to life
  • High-risk missing persons where there is a substantive reason to suspect life has been taken or is under threat
  • Linked series of two or more stranger rapes which are beyond the capability of SCD2 Sapphire Command or other 'critical incidents'



emphasis mine.
In other words, the Murder Investigation Team isn't there just because Madeleine was reported abducted, it must be that OPG has 'substantive reason' to suspect her life has been taken or is under threat.

As for the 4 people on OG for 1 month, was there a special reason to have a skeleton crew during this time? Why does the query state 'respectively' if the dates encompass the entire month between Nov. 30-Dec. 31? Are you the petitioner?
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Post by Nina on 12.03.16 21:42

@whodunit wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:
@whodunit wrote:

I'm a tiny bit confused. Surely this can't mean there were only 4 people involved in OP Grange during the period in question. This answer seems to imply that there was a 4 member 'Murder Investigation Team' off shoot within OP Grange, but the FOI question didn't ask about any sub-committees, it asked about the numbers of staff within OP Grange as a whole. What am I missing?
let me try this a second time, cos if it happens a second time, I have a lot more info than I did the first time.  such is life.



4 people on OG for 1 month.

Murder investigation teams deal with abducted people.


Yes, but according to the website of the Met Police, it's a little more involved than just 'abducted people'. There has to be special circumstances..



Homicide and Serious Crime
The Homicide and Serious Crime Command is responsible for the investigation of homicide and other serious crimes in London.

Murder Investigation Teams investigate:




  • All murder, manslaughter and infanticide offences;
  • Deaths within the workplace or mass disaster where culpability for the loss of life is likely to be an issue in criminal court
  • Attempted murder where the evidence of intent is unambiguous or where a risk assessment identifies substantive risk to life
  • High-risk missing persons where there is a substantive reason to suspect life has been taken or is under threat
  • Linked series of two or more stranger rapes which are beyond the capability of SCD2 Sapphire Command or other 'critical incidents'



emphasis mine.
In other words, the Murder Investigation Team isn't there just because Madeleine was reported abducted, it must be that OPG has 'substantive reason' to suspect her life has been taken or is under threat.

As for the 4 people on OG for 1 month, was there a special reason to have a skeleton crew during this time? Why does the query state 'respectively' if the dates encompass the entire month between Nov. 30-Dec. 31? Are you the petitioner?
Christmas Leave. Sorry not belittling it.

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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 22:04

@whodunit wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:
@whodunit wrote:

I'm a tiny bit confused. Surely this can't mean there were only 4 people involved in OP Grange during the period in question. This answer seems to imply that there was a 4 member 'Murder Investigation Team' off shoot within OP Grange, but the FOI question didn't ask about any sub-committees, it asked about the numbers of staff within OP Grange as a whole. What am I missing?
let me try this a second time, cos if it happens a second time, I have a lot more info than I did the first time.  such is life.



4 people on OG for 1 month.

Murder investigation teams deal with abducted people.


Yes, but according to the website of the Met Police, it's a little more involved than just 'abducted people'. There has to be special circumstances..



Homicide and Serious Crime
The Homicide and Serious Crime Command is responsible for the investigation of homicide and other serious crimes in London.

Murder Investigation Teams investigate:




  • All murder, manslaughter and infanticide offences;
  • Deaths within the workplace or mass disaster where culpability for the loss of life is likely to be an issue in criminal court
  • Attempted murder where the evidence of intent is unambiguous or where a risk assessment identifies substantive risk to life
  • High-risk missing persons where there is a substantive reason to suspect life has been taken or is under threat
  • Linked series of two or more stranger rapes which are beyond the capability of SCD2 Sapphire Command or other 'critical incidents'



emphasis mine.
In other words, the Murder Investigation Team isn't there just because Madeleine was reported abducted, it must be that OPG has 'substantive reason' to suspect her life has been taken or is under threat.

As for the 4 people on OG for 1 month, was there a special reason to have a skeleton crew during this time? Why does the query state 'respectively' if the dates encompass the entire month between Nov. 30-Dec. 31? Are you the petitioner?

4 people on OG.  thats enough to investigate the leads left now.

no, I am not a petitioner.
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 22:09

Assuredly, you wouldn't refer to one person as a 'team'. So we can at the very least say five..and again, that's just the ones who were active on those specific dates. It doesn't necessarily represent an average over the month.

ETA I'd love to know if the two dates chosen held specific events that the petitioner perhaps knew about, or whether it was to generally sense the direction during the month? It seems to me writing 'during December' would achieve that easily enough.
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Post by whodunit on 12.03.16 22:41

Elça Craig wrote:
4 people on OG.  thats enough to investigate the leads left now.

no, I am not a petitioner.

While a Christmas break makes more sense, neither this or lack of leads explains why members of the Murder Investigation Unit are the only ones left.
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Post by Guest on 12.03.16 22:44

Pure speculation, but maybe there's a timeframe organised and they're looking busy until they're allowed to pull the trigger?
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Post by dottyaussie on 12.03.16 23:08

This was another FOI requst, note this was for the month of Oct.....FOI Request to Op Grange - "A full murder investigation team" Met10
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Post by MRNOODLES on 12.03.16 23:28

@dottyaussie wrote:This was another FOI requst, note this was for the month of Oct.....FOI Request to Op Grange - "A full murder investigation team" Met10

Just my opinion.  If this is what people hope it is.  It's still possible it could be pinned onto the dead pervert.  I don't want to be a damp squib, but it's not worth getting too hopeful yet.
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Post by Doug D on 13.03.16 9:28

We’ve been down this road before as to where the enquiry sits within the Met and I think people are reading far too much into it.
 
As for the dates, OG was scaled back to 4 at the end of October, so asking for numbers for the end of November & the end of December is pretty logical imo as the FOI request was probably dated in early January.
 
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12106p75-police-hunt-for-madeleine-mccann-is-scaled-back
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Post by inspirespirit on 13.03.16 10:38

Why does it not have a reference number?
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Post by HelenMeg on 13.03.16 11:28

@Doug D wrote:We’ve been down this road before as to where the enquiry sits within the Met and I think people are reading far too much into it.
 
As for the dates, OG was scaled back to 4 at the end of October, so asking for numbers for the end of November & the end of December is pretty logical imo as the FOI request was probably dated in early January.
 
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12106p75-police-hunt-for-madeleine-mccann-is-scaled-back
It was widely publicised back on 28th October 2015 that the Met were scaling down the amount of people assigned to Op Grange - from 29 to 4:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3293516/Police-hunt-Madeleine-McCann-scaled-investigating-60-suspects-nearly-9-000-sightings-missing-girl.html

It was reported widely in the media.  Surely this only serves to back that up and is nothing new.  Although I have  a very vague memory at the time that although it was scaled down in terms of police officers
there were still to be civilians connected to it e.e potentially DNA specialists etc. (cant find reference to that at moment though). Also it was reported that they had definite leads and a far better understanding of events that week..
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Post by Guest on 13.03.16 11:53

@MRNOODLES wrote:
Just my opinion.  If this is what people hope it is.  It's still possible it could be pinned onto the dead pervert.  I don't want to be a damp squib, but it's not worth getting too hopeful yet.

My concern as well, which direction it will go in once the body is 'discovered'. It wouldn't be hard to retro-fit an explanation that sounds mostly accurate, and blame it on someone who people will have no sympathy for/who literally can't reply. Raymond Hewlett must've been like manna from heaven for the team.

I do, though, have faith in justice in this country, and that if the case is wrapped up it will be done so properly, and not falsely at the behest of intelligences.
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Post by Jill Havern on 13.03.16 18:45

Lynda Greatbanks on CMOMM facebook group:



A further PS has been added - It is circulating on the internet this response to a FOI:

“Freedom of Information Request Reference No:

I note you seek access to the following information:

How many Police officers and civilian staff were on this operation [Operation Grange] on 30/11/2015 and 31/12/2015, respectively.

DECISION

I have today decided to disclose the located information to you in full.

1 Detective Sergeant and 3 Detectives Constables are dedicated to Op Grange, they are attached to, and under the supervision of, a full Murder Investigation Team, these numbers did not change for the time period you specified.

Information Rights Unit”

People are picking up that it now has been clearly said by Scotland Yard that Operation Grange is a murder investigation.

One must never forget that in this case there’s always a catch. One should never take anything for its face value. Only after one finds the catch can one fully understand the messages being passed.

Indeed, Murder Investigation Teams (MITs) investigate “murder, manslaughter, attempted murder where the evidence of intent is unambiguous” but also investigations into missing persons and abductions:

“Murder/Major Investigation Teams (MIT) are the specialised homicide squads of the Metropolitan Police in London, England. Forming part of the Homicide and Serious Crime Command, itself part of the Specialist Crime Directorate, there are 24 MITs within the Met. MITs investigate cases of murder, manslaughter, attempted murder where the evidence of intent is unambiguous, or where a risk assessment identifies substantive risk to life. They also undertake investigations into missing persons or abductions where there is a reason to suspect life has been taken or is under threat and other investigations identified for specialist needs.”

It could be said that they only look into abductions where life has been taken or is under threat. Other than “parental abduction" is there any other abduction that does not fall under this remit?

And it can’t be denied that the McCann version of Maddie’s abduction (there is no official one) does.

And lest we forget Operation Grange’s remit spoke already spoke of homicide:

“The support and expertise proffered by the Commissioner will be provided by the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1.”

And before one says that the remit gives leeway for it to be a serious crime instead of homicide, one has to understand what the SCD 1 is all about:

“The Homicide and Serious Crime Command (SCD 1) is an Operational Command Unit of the Metropolitan Police responsible for the investigation of homicide and other serious crimes in London. Most of their work is carried out by Murder Investigation Teams, of which there are 24. In addition to the MITs, there are also five city-wide units:

- The Central Criminal Court Trials Unit works with the MITs and Crown Prosecution Service on cases that go to trial at the Central Criminal Court at the Old Bailey. The unit also advocates good practice and procedure through the Policy Unit, Forensic Science Services and the Detective Training Academy.

- The Special Projects Investigation Unit reviews serious crime investigations and conducts primary investigations in certain cases.

- The Coroner's Office ensures that investigations are correctly undertaken within the legal constraints of the powers of the Coroner. Coroner's Officers have a key role as liaison between Operational Command Units, the Coroner's Office and the families of the victims. They also attend the scenes of unexplained deaths to support officers by identifying possible causes of death and advising on scene preservation and the recovery of the deceased.

- The HOLMES Support Unit supports police forces nationwide in their use of HOLMES, the Home Office Large Major Enquiry System.

- Forensic Review Support staff review current or historical scenes of crime evidence. The unit works with the Specialist Crime Review Group and Homicide Units and provides advice on forensic evidence recovery including forensic science advances.”

As can be seen, the MIT is the basic operational unit of the CSD 1. So to say “Op Grange, they are attached to, and under the supervision of, a full Murder Investigation Team” is exactly the same as saying that it is under the supervision of one unit of the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1, as per remit.

We’re afraid to say but in this context the word murder is meaningless. This document only tells us what we already knew, that Operation Grange was downsized to 4 people.

Much more revealing than this response was Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe when he let it slip that it was indeed a murder when he appeared on Eddie Nestor on BBC London on Tuesday 07OCT14, 3 days after Brenda’s death, is just a sign of this:

“But in terms of that file [Dossier], what happened if you recall was that the family [McCanns] handed to our team that are investigating the, or reviewing the murder of...of sorry, reviewing the missing girl. errr the McCann daughter. The file was handed to that team and we were liaising with Leicestershire police which is where the McCann family live...”

Here the word murder means murder. No abduction associated with it.

But this response to this FOI contains one very interesting sentence, which is “I have today decided to disclose the located information to you in full”.

This was pointed out by our FB friend Deborah Jayne Law that Therefore someone was now giving information out previously denied in its true entirety.

Indeed we have seen in all responses to FOIs concerning the Maddie case a dismissal that questions could not be fully answered due to the information in question was classified.

Now, this could be read in one of 2 ways.

SY could be doing an Insane. As we know, when Insane doesn’t have any information to back-up his statements he always says that he has it but won’t share it as an excuse. But he betrays these statements because when he has, even if minimal, he doesn’t hesitate to use it.

In this instance, SY could be doing an Insane because the information requested can be innocuously answered in full, so they are doing just that and want people to notice that.

But SY could also be coming forth and actually stating as a fact that they are now allowed to speak or give the truth. A sort of, last week we couldn’t but this week we can.

We leave it to the reader to decide.

This document, as we said, adds nothing and takes nothing. It’s meaningless. But there are other positive signs out there. For example, we are noticing some very visible signs of wear on the other side.

They are getting sloppy in their replies on Twitter:

They are “busy” they say.

Maybe busy tidying up the house before the sky falls down on their heads?

As a friend of ours has said about how the McCanns look in her opinion: “they feel exhausted and betrayed and in the words of a Lawyer friend of mine, set up to fail”.
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Post by Doug D on 13.03.16 18:51

Inspirespirit:
 
Why does it not have a reference number?’
 
These come from the Met Police’s weekly ‘disclosures’ website which is found at:
 
http://www.met.police.uk/foi/disclosure/disclosure_log.htm
 
They post up their responses but don’t show any reference number or the ‘requestor’, unlike the
 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com
 
site, which shows everything.
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