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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Whose pyjamas did the McCanns hold up at those June 2007 press conferences?

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Total Votes : 28
 

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Post by PeterMac 14.08.20 21:07

"those two sets of incriminating stray wisps of cotton which lie right at the heart of this entire thread."

Brilliant !

laugh
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Post by SueH 14.08.20 21:56

If Maddie was not wearing her pyjamas, what was she wearing?  Were any other items of her clothing reported missing?
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Post by sharonl 14.08.20 22:55

@SueH wrote:If Maddie was not wearing her pyjamas, what was she wearing?  Were any other items of her clothing reported missing?

Thats a good question. The children were reportedly bathed and put into PJs around 6 - 6.30, however Kate once said that Madeleine was sometimes difficult to get indoors when it was time to get ready for bed and would run around playing hide and seek.

If we knew what Madeleine was wearing when she met her fate it would give us a better indication of the time. If there was only one set of Pjs, then this would have been before 7pm. If we believe, as many of us now do, that Madeleine had died on the Sunday, we could narrow down the time of death to 1.30 pm to 7pm on that day.
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Post by Secondthoughts2 14.08.20 23:15

@ Tony Bennett

Thanks for reply.   I haven't read Dr Roberts piece but will do, and as I said to Crusader, I will then reach my conclusion.

McCanns would need to have been so very certain that no trace of Madeleine was ever going to be found to have stuck their necks out in saying that she was wearing those particular pyjamas when she vanished, if she wasn't?

Begs question too, why all the drama about a tea stain?

Hypothetically, if she had been found, or her dead body found - in what would she have been clothed?  Whoever removed her from the apartment would s/he/they have wrapped her in bedding of some description, and disposed of her body where/how?

Come to think of it, I don't think I have read anywhere anyone's thoughts on how Madeleine's body might have been disposed of?

Thank again

Oh and, this was the other link I posted earlier re pyjamas

Big Pyjamas
After the screening of Crimewatch last night, there were hundreds of calls if not thousands to their hotline.  Andy Redwood was derrlighted!

Seems all over the UK parents wanted to know who stocks those pyjamas - the ones that grow with your kid!
As Andy revealed the 'Big Pyjamas' he told viewers - This will be the ones to buy this Christmas.   Stocks will be limited - they may be difficult to find.
Holding back the tears, he spoke poignantly of the moment he discovered the pyjamas.   He'd heard they existed - pyjamas that grow with your child - but like everyone else - he would not believe it until he saw a pair for himself.
He had not wanted to promise his young offspring a pair until he was sure such a thing existed.    Little did he know when he took on the Review of the Madeleine case, that he would soon have a proud father moment where he could present them with a pair - as unknown to him and just around the corner - a pair of magic pj's !

The Big Pyjamas launched during Crimewatch UK are sure to be this years best seller over the festive season!
The Mystery British father said:  My wife and I recommend them - Our kid, now 8 years old has been wearing them for the past six years - Sometimes we've slipped up and put them in washing machine at 60 degrees, and they just don't shrink...Unbelievable!
I remember well, the first time Officer Redwood saw the pyjamas, an emotional moment, he broke down, what a tiny tears for a big guy.

When would that have been..?   Now let me think, that would have been around the time...let me think...oh yeh when there was all that stuff in the papers about a libel trial - and his Review wasn't going too well so I'd heard... - I hadn't heard Madeleine was missing though or anything at all about a sighting of a man who looked like me, carrying a child that funny way I do, the child wearing pyjamas just like my daughter's and from just around the corner from the McCann holiday apartment where I had  passed that night.  What are the chances of that eh?     Yes, M'Lud, No M'Lud, Yes I'm sure M'Lud  I'm not making it up.  Me and the wife - we never knew nuffin about Madeleine going missing -it was when Officer Redwood called at our home we could see how distraught he was. David Cameron had given him mission impossible he said sumfin like that, said through his tears.   

When we showed him the pyjamas he started jumping up and down, shouting about a 'rerverlayshun'  we thought it must be a police term - wife and I just looked at each other  -  A rerverlayshun?'  

We thought it would be a nice thing to do - so we offered him the pyjamas - my child hadn't outgrown them- I guffawed at my own joke, you can't outgrow these big pyjamas!    Officer Redwood - said he was derrlighted, proper derrlighted he was.  

My wife and I,thought it would be another nice thing to do, so WE suggested to HIM that if his Review wasn't going so well, that we could be the 'Tanner sighting' if he wanted us to -he  broke down...his prayers had been answered he said.

It was grand seeing the pyjamas on Crimewatch - the wife said though she hopes the public do understand the magic and the mystery they hold - that back six years ago - those pyjama legs would not have been so long that they could have covered the legs of a child three times the size of our then 2 year old daughter, that they understood the pyjamas grow with you....

I said to her - they will - they will understand exactly what is going on...'the public are not stupid' I said to her.

END

A friend called me last night, no, not to ask where she could purchase these wonderful pyjamas but to ask if the mystery British man had been in prison for the past six years along with his wife of course!


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15th October 2013
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Post by Secondthoughts2 14.08.20 23:22

@Sharoni

Perhaps David Payne could help with pyjamagate - did he not say that he was in McCann apartment and saw all three children, bathed, ready for bed, in their pyjamas, looking like little angels?

Would he have noticed what style pyjamas?  Probably not.

If for talks sake, he was able to confirm what Madeleine was wearing, and it was the eyeore pyjamas - would we then have to assume that they were later removed?

Also, Madeleine was unwell that evening was she not, so she may not have been running around that night before bedtime?
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Post by sharonl 14.08.20 23:52

@Secondthoughts2 wrote:@Sharoni

Perhaps David Payne could help with pyjamagate - did he not say that he was in McCann apartment and saw all three children, bathed, ready for bed, in their pyjamas, looking like little angels?

Would he have noticed what style pyjamas?  Probably not.

If for talks sake, he was able to confirm what Madeleine was wearing, and it was the eyeore pyjamas - would we then have to assume that they were later removed?

Also, Madeleine was unwell that evening was she not, so she may not have been running around that night before bedtime?

Payne said that they were all dressed, mostly in white.  But can we really believe anything that Payne has told us? Did Paynes' visit to the McCanns apartment on May 3rd really take place? Even if he did go there, was it on that particular evening?  With so many discrepancies between his version of events and Kates', it is highly unlikely that this ever happened.

How likely is it that he could remember what the children were wearing but couldn't remember that Kate was in nothing but a towel?

And, If Madeleine disappeared on April 29th, obviously he did not see her in her PJs on May 3rd.
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Post by Secondthoughts2 15.08.20 6:20

@Sharoni

Exactly!   And can we really believe anything any of the doctors & co said?

The very reason a reconciliation was - still is imperative - and the very reason that they, the doctors & co will never agree to take part in one despite the case remaining open at this time.  Despite still claiming they believe their daughter is out there - they won't assist - is they know it will show that they have lied.

But that is them.  Does make one wonder - why Met Police and now German police blatantly ignore what is obvious to us laymen out here - that a reconciliation even if it doesn't solve the case, it throws it wide open, it would officially prove/demonstrate that the statements given by these people are wholly untruthful! 

One for Peter Mac - What would prevent, if anything, the police forces involved in this (active) case today (or any case for that matter, after years have gone by since event) carrying out a reconciliation based on statements to police by the chief witnesses shall we say, and followed to the letter of said statements?
Would not that be something that officers would wish to explore in their efforts to solve case - the glaring inconsistencies/lies surely should, even at this stage be something that throws up a red flag to police officers of whatever rank, world over?

I don't believe Madeleine disappeared on 29th April  By disappeared on that date are you saying she died on that date, or simply disappeared on that date, but was still alive until..?

As for all the suspects they periodically pull from the hat, where/what time  would they squeeze in one of these suspects (Brueckner for example) to fit with a reconciliation based on the witness statements given by the doctors would be something to behold.

Brings us back to WHY these people have been so protected by authorities!
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Post by PeterMac 15.08.20 7:16

What is to prevent the police ... carrying out a reconstruction . . ?

Nothing
Except that it is impossible to achieve as a simple reading of the statements shows.
Dr Amaral saw this very early on, which is why they asked them to come back and do it !
And is why they all refused.  
This is a plot of the 'ludicrous' thing they would have do do.
And eat a 3 course meal at the same time.

It is self evidently impossible.
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Tapas_16
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Post by Tony Bennett 15.08.20 9:19

@Sharonl

Perhaps David Payne could help with pyjamagate - did he not say that he was in McCann apartment and saw all three children, bathed, ready for bed, in their pyjamas, looking like little angels?

@Secondthoughts2

I appreciate you are quite new to most aspects of this case, but I should tell you that long ago on CMOMM we KNEW that this alleged visit by David Payne to the McCanns on 3 May 2007 never happened.

We covered this long ago in the '20 CONTRADICTIONS' article which showed how overwhelming the contradictions were:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16138-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-maddie-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10076-yes-or-no-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-madeleine-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place

I would respectfully suggest that there is only one plausible explanation for this, namely that both parties planned in advance to make a false statement about this alleged visit.

Then, of course, the Portuguese Police quite rightly probed each of them for more detail.

And then the lies unravelled. They had to make up what happened on that visit! And made a complete hash of it!

The visit never happened, and the only relevance of it is to ask WHY they made up this tale  






.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett 15.08.20 9:41

@Secondthoughts2 wrote:
I don't believe Madeleine disappeared on 29th April  By disappeared on that date are you saying she died on that date, or simply disappeared on that date, but was still alive until..?

What is your best explanation for the fact that we have five photos of Madeleine alive, three on Saturday 28th April 2007, one about 11am on Sunday 29th April and one more at 1.29pm or 2.29pm on Sunday 29th April - but none for the rest of the week?

Also, what is your best explanation for why the 'Last Photo' of Madeleine by the pool had its date stamp changed from 29 April to 3 May?

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Zzzzzz29

I only ask because the answer to these questions is directly related to the fact that on 5 June and 7 June 2007, the McCanns were able to hold up Madeleine's actual pyjamas on that holiday - a fact that Dr Martin Roberts was able to work out but not the combined brains of the PJ, Leicestershire Police and Scotland Yard.

And as we are off-topic now, we really should return this thread to this issue of the pyjamas.     

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Paulo Alexandre 15.08.20 10:38

@Tony Bennett wrote:
I only ask because the answer to these questions is directly related to the fact that on 5 June and 7 June 2007, the McCanns were able to hold up Madeleine's actual pyjamas on that holiday - a fact that Dr Martin Roberts was able to work out but not the combined brains of the PJ, Leicestershire Police and Scotland Yard.
Nowhere near a fact.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the pyjamas shown at the London and Amsterdam press conferences belonged to Madeleine at the time of her disappearance.

They may be the same ones as those allegedly photographed by Luís Forra, but without more data to confirm it, this theory holds no water, and quite frankly, it makes no sense for Kate to have photographed Madeleine's pyjamas on the morning of the 3rd of May. What would be the purpose? What is she accomplishing by taking a picture of the pyjamas? Making sure people know those are Madeleine's pyjamas - the same pyjamas that she was abducted in?

The McCanns don't strike me as being stupid. They wouldn't do such thing and there is no reason for them to do it anyway, since it doesn't help their abduction story.

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Post by Paulo Alexandre 15.08.20 11:00

Dr. Martin Roberts wrote:Alongside a suite of photographs taken at Lagos Marina by Kate McCann is an introductory memo, written by DC Markley of Leicester Police on or about the 8 May and headed up, 'Information from the Family'. Here also one finds the only copy (in black and white) of the McCanns' official photograph of Madeleine's pyjamas (Outros Apensos Vol. II - Apenso VIII, p.342). Rather than its being a PJ production, afterwards passed to the McCanns, it seems the photograph was actually a McCann production fed to the PJ, an observation wholly concordant with the fact that it was actually the McCanns who first revealed this photograph to the press, on Monday 7 May, three days before the PJ released it (as reported by Ian Herbert, the Independent, 11.5.07).

Any illusion that the image in question was the result of a McCann representative's commissioning their own studio photograph of 'off-the-shelf' UK merchandise may soon be dispelled. It is an amateur snapshot. Taken in ambient (day) light, against a coloured (as opposed to neutral) background, it is slightly out of focus and displays detectable signs of parallax. It is not something even a journeyman professional would admit to.

And yet, bold as brass, it represents 'information from the family'.
The information was a statement from Kate's friend about an alleged psychic vision that Madeleine was on a boat. It was clearly written after 8 May, because the friend mentions a past conversation that she had with Kate on the 8th.

One reason I can think of for the pyjama photo being included along the statement and the boat photographs is to remind the Portuguese police what Madeleine was wearing when she was "abducted", just so in case they find anything important.

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Post by Tony Bennett 15.08.20 12:41

pauloalexandre wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
I only ask because the answer to these questions is directly related to the fact that on 5 June and 7 June 2007, the McCanns were able to hold up Madeleine's actual pyjamas on that holiday - a fact that Dr Martin Roberts was able to work out but not the combined brains of the PJ, Leicestershire Police and Scotland Yard.
Nowhere near a fact.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the pyjamas shown at the London and Amsterdam press conferences belonged to Madeleine at the time of her disappearance.

They may be the same ones as those allegedly photographed by Luís Forra, but without more data to confirm it, this theory holds no water, and quite frankly, it makes no sense for Kate to have photographed Madeleine's pyjamas on the morning of the 3rd of May. What would be the purpose? What is she accomplishing by taking a picture of the pyjamas? Making sure people know those are Madeleine's pyjamas - the same pyjamas that she was abducted in?

The McCanns don't strike me as being stupid. They wouldn't do such thing and there is no reason for them to do it anyway, since it doesn't help their abduction story.
I think you agree with the vast majority here that these pyjamas, displayed at two conferences in June 2007, were the McCanns', i.e. they did not suddenly get them from somewhere else for the purpose of displaying them on the Crimewatch Show (5 June) and at the Amsterdam Hilton press conference (7 June). Do we agree on that?

If you do agree that, surely that limits the debate to: "Were they Madeleine's or Amelie's pyjamas, and when were they bought?"  

You wrote: "They may be the same ones as those allegedly photographed by Luís Forra, but without more data to confirm it, this theory holds no water". 

Your denial that the two stray wisps of cotton in exactly the same place on both sets of photos is sufficient proof that we are looking at the same pair of pyjamas as in the Luis Forra-credited photo is on a par with those few who still insist that the fabled 'Last Photo' 'may have been' taken on cool, cloudy, windy Thursday 3 May and not warm and sunny Sunday 29 April.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Jill Havern 15.08.20 12:54

pauloalexandre wrote:One reason I can think of for the pyjama photo being included along the statement and the boat photographs is to remind the Portuguese police what Madeleine was wearing when she was "abducted", just so in case they find anything important.
I'm not sure I follow this...why would the McCanns take a photograph to remind the PJ of what Madeleine was wearing when she was 'abducted'?

It would be obvious to the PJ that the McCanns knew she was going to be 'abducted'.

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Post by Paulo Alexandre 15.08.20 12:59

@Tony Bennett wrote:I think you agree with the vast majority here that these pyjamas, displayed at two conferences in June 2007, were the McCanns', i.e. they did not suddenly get them from somewhere else for the purpose of displaying them on the Crimewatch Show (5 June) and at the Amsterdam Hilton press conference (7 June). Do we agree on that?

If you do agree that, surely that limits the debate to: "Were they Madeleine's or Amelie's pyjamas, and when were they bought?" 
Kate said in the press conference that they were Amelie's pyjamas.

There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

@Tony Bennett wrote:You wrote: "They may be the same ones as those allegedly photographed by Luís Forra, but without more data to confirm it, this theory holds no water". 

Your denial that the two stray wisps of cotton in exactly the same place on both sets of photos is sufficient proof that we are looking at the same pair of pyjamas as in the Luis Forra-credited photo is on a par with those few who still insist that the fabled 'Last Photo' 'may have been' taken on cool, cloudy, windy Thursday 3 May and not warm and sunny Sunday 29 April.
First of all, I did not "deny" anything.

Secondly, even if they are, so what? It certainly does not indicate, in any way, that we are looking at the pyjamas that Madeleine had before the reported disappearance took place.

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Post by Paulo Alexandre 15.08.20 13:04

@Jill Havern wrote:
pauloalexandre wrote:One reason I can think of for the pyjama photo being included along the statement and the boat photographs is to remind the Portuguese police what Madeleine was wearing when she was "abducted", just so in case they find anything important.
I'm not sure I follow this...why would the McCanns take a photograph to remind the PJ of what Madeleine was wearing when she was 'abducted'?
The PJ was going to search those boats to see if there was anything related to Madeleine. A photograph of pyjamas identical to those of Madeleine would help in that regard, thus the reason why I think that photo may have been attached to the documents.

I did not say the McCanns were the ones who took the photo.

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Post by crusader 15.08.20 13:14

So, if the pictures of the marina and pyjamas came from the UK via the Leicestershire Constabulary, then they are "official" reproductions of what Kate gave to them on the 8th May.
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Post by crusader 15.08.20 13:20

Can somebody please remind me if there was a photo anywhere before the 8th May of the" Amalie " PJs.
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Post by Paulo Alexandre 15.08.20 13:52

@crusader wrote:So, if the pictures of the marina and pyjamas came from the UK via the Leicestershire Constabulary, then they are "official" reproductions of what Kate gave to them on the 8th May.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean she was the one who took the photo.

Wasn't it already established that the pyjama photo was taken by Luís Forra?

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Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by crusader 15.08.20 13:58

It's attributed to Luis Forra, and the PA, But no proof that he took it.
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Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by PeterMac 15.08.20 16:09

in this video clip, at 1:42 Kate says, after a bit of dithering with the button and other things
"... these are ACTUALLY the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing when she was taken . . "



And the piece of stray cotton on the bottom of the left leg is very clear.

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Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett 15.08.20 16:15

pauloalexandre wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
If you do agree that, surely that limits the debate to: "Were they Madeleine's or Amelie's pyjamas, and when were they bought?" 
Kate said in the press conference that they were Amelie's pyjamas. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.


I find this approach to investigating what really happened to Madeleine McCann fascinating.

I think the principle you are enunciating is this:

"If Kate said something, it must be true, unless we have overwhelming evidence to say otherwise".

On that principle, we might as well wade though all 392 pages of Kate's book, close it, and get on with the rest of our lives without wasting our time trying to solve the mystery. 

Meanwhile, we all eagerly await your explanation of how (according to you) a photo of Amelie's pyjamas got to the Luis Forra press agency.

See if you can do better than Dr Martin Roberts

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett 15.08.20 16:27

@PeterMac wrote:in this video clip, at 1:42 Kate says, after a bit of dithering with the button and other things
"... these are ACTUALLY the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing when she was taken ..."



To be absolutely fair, the full quote, to provide better context, is this:

"...so, these are actually, apart from the size and the button at the back, which Madeleine's doesn't actually have, these are actually the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing when she was taken..."

We find the word 'actually' there three times in one sentence.

The emphasis on the size and button at the back is CONTRARY to what we understand about the manufacture of pyjamas for very young children.

The ones for 1-2 year olds had NO button.

The ones for 3-4 year olds DID have a button.

In addition, there is the great unlikelihood (admittedly not an impossibility) that the two sisters would be wearing identical patterned pyjamas.




.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 16 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by SueH 15.08.20 17:31

Generally babies tops do have a button at the back of the neck or envelope style collars to aid in putting them on. Toddlers and children’s do not.
The pair that the PJ were provided by M&S and said to be identical to Maddie’s were for age 2-3. Maddie was not tall for her age.
M&S sizes are generous, I remember buying my sons from M&S they always seem to last a good year and a bit and still fit.
For this reason alone I say the buttoned one’s were Amelie’s, that’s not to say they couldn’t be hand-me-downs from Maddie.
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Post by miffy8 15.08.20 18:38

To say 'actually' is a major faux Pas of Kate's in this instance. Precision and linguistic command is a requisite attribute and necessity of being a medic. This suggests that she is 'actually' and almost definitely telling the truth on this occasion. If they weren't Madeleine's she would have most likely have said 'almost identical to' (except for the size and the button). So familiar infact with these particular pyjamas is she that notice how she doesn't hesitate before revealing the precise location of the motif and the correct leg when holding them up facing away from her. If she was precise in this respect, her choice of the word actually is highly likely to have also been.

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