The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When you register please do NOT use your email address for a username because everyone will be able to see it!

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Mm11

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Regist10

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Page 12 of 14 Previous  1 ... 7 ... 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Whose pyjamas did the McCanns hold up at those June 2007 press conferences?

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_lcap16%Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_rcap 16% 
[ 3 ]
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_lcap63%Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_rcap 63% 
[ 12 ]
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_lcap21%Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Vote_rcap 21% 
[ 4 ]
 
Total Votes : 19
 

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by crusader on 15.01.20 12:50

@"Tony Bennett.3. Was the original Luis Forra photograph of the pyjamas taken by him or one of his staff - or by an amateur photographer?

The photo of Amalie's  pyjamas is credited to Luis Forra, Fact. It doesn't say anywhere as far as I know, that he or one of his staff took it or how he came by it.

Even if, and it's speculation, that the Mccann's took the photo of Amalie's pyjamas on the blue couch, it proves nothing unless it can be proved that the pyjamas belonged to Madeleine.

How and when did the Mccann's come into contact with Luis Forra to give him the pyjama photo or take it to his studio in Lisbon.
crusader
crusader

Posts : 272
Join date : 2019-03-12

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.01.20 13:29

@crusader wrote:@"Tony Bennett.3. Was the original Luis Forra photograph of the pyjamas taken by him or one of his staff - or by an amateur photographer?

The photo of Amalie's pyjamas is credited to Luis Forra, Fact. It doesn't say anywhere as far as I know, that he or one of his staff took it or how he came by it.

REPLY: We know that Luis Forra/his agency 'created' this photo on Saturday 5 May. He had in front of him any one of these 4 possibilities:
(1) A photo of Maddie's pyjamas
(2) A photo of Amelie's pyjamas
(3) Maddie's actual pyjamas, or
(4) Amelie's actual pyjamas.


Even if, and it's speculation, that the McCanns took the photo of Amelie's pyjamas on the blue couch, it proves nothing unless it can be proved that the pyjamas belonged to Madeleine. 

REPLY: If the McCanns took the photo, then they must have taken it during the early part of 5 May, or more likely before then. You would have to ask (a) why they did so and (b) why the McCanns have never mentioned the episode of this photo being taken, not even in Kate's book.

How and when did the McCanns come into contact with Luis Forra to give him the pyjama photo or take it to his studio in Lisbon?

REPLY: Lisbon? I thought he worked from Lagos? Did he have an agent on the Algarve? Or maybe did the McCanns send him the photo to his studio by email, and then Luis Forra created a fresh one (from the photo) so that it was suitable for release to the press? Of course, if the McCanns took the photo any time before about 9.15pm on Thursday 3 May, we can safely say that Madeleine wasn't abducted.  
  

Please see replies above in red

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 15.01.20 15:20

@crusader wrote:@"Tony Bennett.3. Was the original Luis Forra photograph of the pyjamas taken by him or one of his staff - or by an amateur photographer?

The photo of Amalie's  pyjamas is credited to Luis Forra, Fact. It doesn't say anywhere as far as I know, that he or one of his staff took it or how he came by it.

Even if, and it's speculation, that the Mccann's took the photo of Amalie's pyjamas on the blue couch, it proves nothing unless it can be proved that the pyjamas belonged to Madeleine.

How and when did the Mccann's come into contact with Luis Forra to give him the pyjama photo or take it to his studio in Lisbon.

Precisely crusader.  I've been through all this before yonks ago, must have been on another thread.

This is my final attempt to put the record straight.  This is the image documented on the EPA archives..

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree418

Take particular notice of the wording:

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree419

Luis Forra works with the Portuguese press agency LUSA, this agency comes under the global umberella of the european press agency, the EPA.

As I said up-page, the black and white pyjama image that somehow found it's way into the Leicester Police documentation relating to the marina vision, clearly shows the Portuguese police mark, from which it can besafely deduced that the image originated from that source, the Portuguese Police.

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Blakc_10

I see no reason to think this photograph is anything other than a genuine image of Amelie McCann's pyjamas, taken by press photographer Luis Forra.

Here's another by way of example..

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree420

NB: Apologies for the shabby posting, my desk top has got frostbite - I blame global warming.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.01.20 18:04

@Verdi wrote:

This is my final attempt to put the record straight.  This is the image documented on the EPA archives..

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree418

Take particular notice of the wording:

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree419

Luis Forra works with the Portuguese press agency LUSA, this agency comes under the global umbreella of the European Press Agency, the EPA.

As I said up-page, the black and white pyjama image that somehow found it's way into the Leicester Police documentation relating to the marina vision, clearly shows the Portuguese police mark, from which it can be safely deduced that the image originated from that source, the Portuguese Police.

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Blakc_10

I see no reason to think this photograph is anything other than a genuine image of Amelie McCann's pyjamas, taken by press photographer Luis Forra.

@Verdi 

There is nothing in the factual information you have posted that I disagree with, far from it.

However, the information we have does NOT establish (a) that this photo is of AMELIE'S pyjamas nor (b) that, as you say, it was "TAKEN BY press photographer Luis Forra.

I think we need some clarification about what is meant by the Luis Forra agency having 'CREATED' this photograph on Saturday 5 May.

To understand this issue let us have a look again at the Tennis Balls Photo.

This also was 'CREATED' on the very same day, Saturday 5 May, as the pyjamas photo.

But does that mean the Tennis Balls photo was TAKEN on Saturday, 5 May?

CLEARLY, NO, it doesn't.  

The McCanns say it was taken by Kate on Tiuesday 1 May.

Others claim (Jane Tanner and Rachael Oldfield IIRC) to have taken it any date between Monday 30 April and Thursday 3 May. The evidence from the McCanns and the Tapas 7 is all over the place regarding this photo. 

PeterMac's analysis (Chapter 22, Tennis Balls Photo) suggests it was not taken on Kate McCann's camera and moreover that it may have been taken, or forged from, a photo taken well before the holiday.

Absolutely no-one suggests the Tennis Balls Photo was TAKEN on 5 May, even though the EXIF DATA say it was CREATED on 5 May (see the data, bottom right of this screen-grab - sorry it's not sharper, but it does say it was created on 05-05-07):

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie15


Thus the information you provided in your post doesn't tell us when the photo was TAKEN - it tells us merely when it was CREATED

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by crusader on 15.01.20 21:20

We know that a larger size of Amalie's pj's does exist, we have seen a photo of them. So Kate Mccann must either have had a pair, ie, Madeleines, or knew the larger size had no button.

The photo of the pj's in the police files, kindly shown by @Verdi up thread, showing the pj's with no button, was I believe taken at the Portuguese Forensic Institute.

Goncalo Amaral sent them to the Institute after receiving them from M&S. They were sent there for the purpose of comparing fibers found on the wall outside the Mccann's apartment.

Date: 5th June 2007

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007 from P da L.

By means of this note I am sending a set of child's pyjamas to the Scientific Police Laboratory.

The pyjamas are of Marks $ Spencers make and size 2/3 years, 97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces, a camisole without buttons and half length sleeves, pink in colour with designs and letters and white trousers with floral motifs (small), on the right leg there is a design (smaller size) that is the same as the design on the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs and presumably texture, as those the girl was wearing at the moment of her disappearance.

The article sent serves for eventual comparison with 'fibres' collected during the competent examinations
crusader
crusader

Posts : 272
Join date : 2019-03-12

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by crusader on 15.01.20 21:32

I was wondering why, it say's Author unknown at the beginning of 
Dr Robert's post.
crusader
crusader

Posts : 272
Join date : 2019-03-12

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.01.20 22:04

@crusader wrote:We know that a larger size of Amalie's pj's does exist, we have seen a photo of them. So Kate Mccann must either have had a pair, ie, Madeleines, or knew the larger size had no button.

Goncalo Amaral sent [the pyjamas] to the Institute after receiving them from M&S. They were sent there for the purpose of comparing fibers found on the wall outside the McCanns' apartment.

Date: 5th June 2007

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

SNIPPED

The pyjamas are of Marks $ Spencers make and size 2/3 years, 97 cm.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs and presumably texture, as those the girl was wearing at the moment of her disappearance.
 

Thank you @crusader.

The bit I've bolded and underlined in red is very interesting. 

We are TOLD that the McCanns' waved AMELIE'S actual pyjamas at those two June 2007 press conferences.

Yet, as Goncalo Amaral says in his letter, the one he ordered from M&S are 'EQUAL IN SIZE' etc. to those worn by MADELEINE on that holiday. 

Yet the McCanns say that the pyjamas they held up were AMELIE's. 

So, if this is correct, this means that the pyjamas being worn by Amelie on that holiday (who was just over 2 years old) were the SAME SIZE as those being worn by Madeleine on that holiday (she was a few days shy of 4).


Were Amelie (2) and Madeleine (nearly 4) the same height at that time? Would they really have had IDENTICAL PYJAMAS on that holiday? 


Does anyone see a problem here?


The McCanns are asking us to believe that not only did Amelie and Madeleine have exactly the same MAKE and DESIGN of pyjamas on that holiday, but they were exactly the same SIZE.


I don't believe it





.

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Mainline on 15.01.20 22:25

@Verdi wrote:
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie10
Press Agency Archive
[Shows back fastening that Kate McCann says Madeleine's didn't have]

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie11
PJ Release
[Shows back fastening that Kate McCann says Madeleine's didn't have]

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree414
PJ Files
[Pyjamas supplied by Marks & Spencers said to be equal to those belonging to Madeleine, show no back fastening as Kate McCann said Madeleine's didn't have.


Verdi summed this up here.

I note there is some confusion about the first two images above. And the insinuation seems to be that only the second image is the original, since it has a blue background.

They are both images of the same pair of pyjamas, against the same background. They don't move between shots. Compare the positions of the two 'errant threads', mentioned upthread.

The colour of the background doesn't change. All that changes is the quality and perspective.

Has anyone contacted Mr Forra for clarification?
Mainline
Mainline

Posts : 119
Join date : 2018-10-01

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.01.20 22:35

@Mainline wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie10
Press Agency Archive
[Shows back fastening that Kate McCann says Madeleine's didn't have]

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie11
PJ Release
[Shows back fastening that Kate McCann says Madeleine's didn't have]


And that is the crux of this entire thread.

We either believe 100% what Kate McCann says about these pyjamas....i.e. that these really were Amelie's pyjamas.

Or we don't

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by crusader on 15.01.20 22:38

I know for sure the 2 images are the same .I don't however, know much about photography.
The first photo looks like a better take of the pj's, the second photo is more wishy washy.
I had thought until yesterday, that the curtains and covers in Madeleine's room were grey, when in fact they were lilac.
crusader
crusader

Posts : 272
Join date : 2019-03-12

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 15.01.20 23:56

@Tony Bennett wrote:And that is the crux of this entire thread.

We either believe 100% what Kate McCann says about these pyjamas....i.e. that these really were Amelie's pyjamas.

Or we don't

It's not a matter of believing what Kate McCann says, the consistency is apparent.

Before the world's media, Kate McCann said the pyjamas shown were the same as those belonging to Madeleine, the only differences being the size and the back button fastening which Madeleine's pyjamas didn't have.  The images provided by Marks & Spencer for the press, showed similar pyjamas for a child of Madeleine's age without the back fastening, just as Kate McCann described.

The pyjamas later supplied to the PJ by Marks & Spencer accord with the images sent to the press and Kate McCann's description - no back fastening.

The image of the pyjama's accredited to Luis Forra of LUSA/EPA show a back button fastening, consistent with a model for a slightly younger child - as Kate McCann described.

It's all posted up-page and beforehand somewhere else on the forum.

As an aside, if you trawl through the various press agency photograph archives, you will note they ALL use the wording 'created on'.  Invariably, if not always, this means the date the photograph was taken.  It DOES NOT mean, nor imply, that any particular image has been photo-shopped, manipulated, invented - or whatever other verb you prefer to use.

You will also note, if an image is not accredited to a specific press photographer or agency, it states the image is a family hand-out, so it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that Kate McCann, nor any of her adherents handed over the photograph to Luis Forra nor even Leicester Police.  

The negative image of almost certainly Amelie's pyjamas is recorded in the official PJ files released into the public domain.  Across this image you can clearly see the Portuguese Judiciary's mark.  It's beyond reasonable to conclude the image was the property of/in the custody of the PJ.

There is nothing, I repeat nothing, to indicate - let alone prove, anything to the contrary.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 16.01.20 0:11

@Tony Bennett wrote:To understand this issue let us have a look again at the Tennis Balls Photo.

This also was 'CREATED' on the very same day, Saturday 5 May, as the pyjamas photo.

But does that mean the Tennis Balls photo was TAKEN on Saturday, 5 May?

CLEARLY, NO, it doesn't.  

I don't wish to see yet another thread go off topic but as you mention the tennis ball image,  I don't recall ever seeing it on any press agency photograph archive. As it was featured on many occasions in UK tabloids, this surprises me.  Not to say it isn't hidden somewhere I haven't come across.

One report, the Mirror cite the PA as the source of the image.  I've scrolled through the entire PA archive but haven't seen the tennis ball image - I'm careful not to say photograph.  Nor have I come across it on the AP archive or Getty archive.

But that's for another thread.

Discuss here:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14797p75-the-six-photos-that-provide-the-biggest-clue-to-when-madeleine-died#412959

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 16.01.20 1:28

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Scree421

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Milo on 16.01.20 7:08

So now one can see frills at the bottom of pyjama legs from a distance but only a blank man's face with the features washed off. And providing handouts is so passe (with accent on the "e").
avatar
Milo

Posts : 108
Join date : 2017-10-12
Age : 73
Location : WOODY POINT Australia

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.01.20 21:37

@Verdi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:And that is the crux of this entire thread.

We either believe 100% what Kate McCann says about these pyjamas....i.e. that these really were Amelie's pyjamas.

Or we don't

You will also note, if an image is not accredited to a specific press photographer or agency, it states the image is a family hand-out, so it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that [neither] Kate McCann, nor any of her adherents handed over the photograph to Luis Forra nor even Leicester Police.  

The negative image of almost certainly Amelie's pyjamas is recorded in the official PJ files released into the public domain. Across this image you can clearly see the Portuguese Judiciary's mark.  It's beyond reasonable to conclude the image was the property of/in the custody of the PJ.

There is nothing, I repeat nothing, to indicate - let alone prove, anything to the contrary.

(I assume you missed out the word 'neither' in the first bolded quote above?)

For the purposes of continuing this discussion @Verdi, and to clarify your observations, can we agree the following FACTS? If not, please say where you disagree, thanks:

1. The pair of pyjamas photo which is attributed to the Luis Forra press/photo agency and the pair exhibited by the McCanns at the press conferences are identical

2. The McCanns admit that these pyjamas (whether Amelie's or Madeleine's) were with them on that holiday

3. The Luis Forra photograph was 'created' on Saturday 5 May (the same date as the Tennis Balls Photo was 'created')

4. If Luis Forra took the pyjamas photo, somehow those pyjamas were moved from the McCanns and brought to a place where he could photograph them (his own studio, or elsewhere)

5. On Tuesday 8 May, Kate McCann visited D C Markley and handed him some photos of a boat and a man. She does not say she handed over the pyjamas photo, but it appears in a collection of grey-scale photos that was later in D C Markley's possession and in the PJ's possession

6. EITHER Kate McCann, or one of the McCanns' agents, handed the Luis Forra pyjamas photo to the PJ OR (another possibility) D C Markley, who was in Portugal at the time, gave it to the PJ, hence it bears a PJ imprint

7. The Luis Forra agency pyjama photo was CREATED on Saturday 5 May, was HANDED to the PJ by someone on Tuesday 8 May, and was sent to the media thereafter, being published in the Telegraph and Mail (and possibly other media) on Thursday 10 May

8. Kate McCann admits to washing Madeleine's pyjamas (because of a 'tea stain') on the morning of Thursday 3 May

9. Nowhere in Kate's book does she mention the taking of a photo of a pair of pyjamas nor having visited the Luis Forra agency

10. On Tuesday 8 May Gerry McCann and Alex Woolfall took in to the PJ a computer disk/CD with various photographs on them from the McCanns' and Paynes' cameras. It is clear from what we know that some of these photos were cropped/edited and that others which must have been on the McCanns' camera were not among the images handed in that day nor on the next day by Gerry McCann and Michael Wright

===== 

Further, I assume that the fact that the pyjamas photo was taken against what looks very much like a blue hessian background - which in turn is consistent with a blue settee seen in the McCanns' apartment - is regarded by you as no more than a very strange coincidence?

May I also assume that you reject in their entirety all the many observations Dr Martin Roberts makes about the poor quality of the pyjama photograph in his article?

Thanks

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 17.01.20 0:16

Sorry @Tony, I can't waste any more time on this.  

You persistently go forth without due consideration for my past comments, to put it bluntly you disregard everything I've (and others) presented throughout this entire thread.  You now ask to me agree (or disagree?) with specific points you raise which run counter to, or maybe agree with, my past observations, again ignoring documented fact/informed opinion in favour of blind speculation offered by Dr Martin Roberts.

My final words in brief, I do not agree with Dr Martin Roberts' 'The Nightwear Job'.  I believe it to be a classic case of distorted information and  wishful thinking.

bow3

Maybe other members might be willing to contribute to the thread.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by BlueBag on 17.01.20 8:28

Me too Tony, I think Dr Roberts has made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Not the first time it's happened with this case (an understatement).
BlueBag
BlueBag

Posts : 5844
Join date : 2014-06-06

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.01.20 17:07

@BlueBag wrote:Me too Tony, I think Dr Roberts has made a mountain out of a mole hill.

Not the first time it's happened with this case (an understatement).

I am sad to be at odds on the subject of a pair of pyjamas with two great contributors to the forum, namely @Verdi & @BlueBag.

I was also sad to be accused by Verdi of:

“persistently going forth without due consideration for my past comments”,

“disregarding (to put it mildly) everything  I (and others) have presented throughout this entire thread”, and

“ignoring documented fact/informed opinion”.

And I was sad to see Dr Martin Roberts theory, whose complete works we carry on the forum, dismissed as ‘blind speculation’ (Verdi) and ‘making a mountain out of a molehill’ (BlueBag).

In asking you Verdi to briefly tell me which of 10 statements I made you can agree with, or not as the case may be, I was seeking to get closer to the truth about those pyjamas.

I do not insist that Dr Martin Roberts is right, though I find his arguments persuasive.

Both Verdi & BlueBag are wholly satisfied, as I understand it, that Amelie’s pyjamas were somehow brought to the Luis Forra agency and then displayed a month later at three press conferences in England, Germany and the Netherlands.

I shall continue to question that claim until absolutely convinced that it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I think they may have been Madeleine’s pyjamas.

In light of the above, I thought I would set out below what I consider the beliefs of those who say ‘nothing to see, move along now’ whenever anyone questions whether those pyjamas were Madeleine’s, or Amelie’s - which is the entire issue on this thread.

So this, I think, is a fair summary of their beliefs as I see it:


THE CREED

1 I believe those are Amelie’s pyjamas

2 I believe that from beginning to end the McCanns have told the truth about those pyjamas 

3 I believe that there is nothing in what is said by Dr Martin Roberts, or by anyone else on this thread, that casts any doubt whatsoever on what the McCanns say about those pyjamas

4 I believe it is perfectly sensible to suggest that Madeleine and Amelie wore identical or near-identical pyjamas on that holiday

5 I believe we should completely ignore the reported comment of Amelie, on seeing a pair of pyjamas: (as reported in the Sydney Herald) “Maddie’s jammies! Where is Maddie?”

6 I believe that the pyjamas were photographed by the Luis Forra agency on Saturday 5 May

7 I believe it is utterly irrelevant to bother to inquire as to how, and by whom, these pyjamas were delivered from the custody of the McCanns to the Luis Forra agency   

8 I do not believe that the McCanns themselves photographed these pyjamas

9 I do not believe that the Luis Forra photograph could be a photograph of a photograph

10 I believe that the fact that the photograph seems to have been taken against a blue hessian-type background - which matches a blue sofa in the McCanns’ holiday apartment - is utterly irrelevant and just a mere coincidence

11 I believe that Dr Martin Roberts’ claim that the pyjama photograph was taken by an amateur, that it was slightly out of focus etc., is rubbish, or, if not rubbish, is irrelevant [Martin Roberts’ actual words were: “Any illusion that the image in question was the result of a McCann representative's commissioning their own studio photograph of 'off-the-shelf' UK merchandise may soon be dispelled. It is an amateur snapshot. Taken in ambient (day) light, against a coloured (as opposed to neutral) background, it is slightly out of focus and displays detectable signs of parallax. It is not something even a journeyman professional would admit to. And yet, bold as brass, it represents 'information from the family'.”]

12 I believe that it is irrelevant that the McCanns never mention how the pyjamas got to the Luis Forra agency

13 I believe that the statement by Kate McCann in her book that she washed Madeleine’s pyjamas on the morning of Thursday 3 May, because of a tea stain, is also utterly irrelevant to the fact that these are Amelie’s pyjamas   

14 I believe Dr Martin Roberts is utterly mistaken in thinking that Amelie’s pyjamas look ‘too large’ on the Amsterdam Hilton photos to have been Amelie’s

15 I believe that to spend one second more debating this issue is a complete and utter waste of precious time.

Amen     
  

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Doug D on 17.01.20 21:32

Which pyjamas did GA send with his letter dated 5th June 2007 to Police Scientific Laboratory. Lisbon?
 
 ‘without buttons’, ‘equal in make’, ‘size 2 to 3 years -  97cms.’
 
It seems to have been assumed that these were the ones received from M&S, but if so, why did nothing happen until another request was made in October? 
 
Was GA not particularly interested in a response to the comparison with some fibres found on the outside wall, as he was already satisfied that no abduction had occurred in that manner?


There is no response seemingly on file and then nothing happens until a request in October 2007 sending the pyjamas received from M&S with the labels still attached. 
 











 1713  Letter 5 June 2007 requesting analysis of Marks & Spencer pyjamas, 2-3 year old, 97 cm
  TRANSLATED BY INES
 07 Processos Vol VII Page 1713












07_VOLUMEI1a_Page_1713
There 















3483 to 3487 Forensic report 23 November 2007 on Eeyore pyjamas (+ photographs)
13 Processos Vol XIII Pages 3483 to 3487











13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3484
 
Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3484_small 
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3484_small.jpg
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3485
 Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3485_small
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3485_small.jpg
 
 
 
Forensic report No. 200711800-FI

Requested by:: Portimao DIC

NUIPC 201-07 Galgs

Correspondence number: 3609 of 31st October 2007

Examination initiated : October 2007
 
 If we work on the assumption (not necessarily correct) that these were the same pyjamas (which have a scale shown in the photos), I am sure some clever person could measure and compare the size of the pyjamas held up by the Mc’s, if this has not already been done somewhere, (compare to width of GM’s high quality wristband or the logo size maybe) and see if there is even a possibility that they could be AM’s pyjamas rather than Madeleine’s. If they were bought in 2006 as stated by KM we would be looking at smaller rather than larger sizes, even if built to 'grow into' at that time.
 
M&S sizes are stated as follows:
 
















3-6 Months
6-9 Months
9-12 Months
12-18 Months
18-24 Months
24-36 Months
8kgs
9kgs
10kgs
11kgs
12.5kgs
14.5kgs
69
72
76
83
90
98
avatar
Doug D

Posts : 3043
Join date : 2013-12-03

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Verdi on 18.01.20 0:21


____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
Verdi
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 16265
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by BlueBag on 18.01.20 8:23

I know you already posted that Verdi, you know it as well.

I'm not sure people are paying attention.
BlueBag
BlueBag

Posts : 5844
Join date : 2014-06-06

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Tony Bennett on 20.01.20 17:59

@DougD wrote: If we work on the assumption (not necessarily correct) that these were the same pyjamas (which have a scale shown in the photos), I am sure some clever person could measure and compare the size of the pyjamas held up by the Mc’s, if this has not already been done somewhere, (compare to width of GM’s high quality wristband or the logo size maybe) and see if there is even a possibility that they could be AM’s pyjamas rather than Madeleine’s. If they were bought in 2006 as stated by KM we would be looking at smaller rather than larger sizes, even if built to 'grow into' at that time.  

M&S sizes are stated as follows:
 
REST SNIPPED


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REPLY: If you look at the range of sizes given, these change very rapidly:

69cm 3-6 months
72cm 6-9 months
76cm 9-12 months
83cm-12-18 months
90cm 18-24 months
98cm 24-36 months.

The pyjamas we are discussing (Luis Forra photos) are stated unequivocally by the McCanns to have been AMELIE'S. When were they bought? Amelie had only just turned 2 years in February. Madeleine was a week off from being 4.

I doubt we are going to get a final opinion on what length those pyjamas being waved about by the McCanns at their press conference were - but I agree with Dr Martin's impression that they are much too big to have been been worn by Amelie.


Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie18


And did those two sisters  REALLY have the exactly the same (apart maybe from size), Eeyore-design, pyjamas that week?

Again, if they were Amelie's, I would have to question why it was considered necessary to photograph these pyjamas, and that's besides asking who actually took the photo, the McCanns or Luis Forra. Plus, again, the odd fact that amongst screeds of information in Kate McCann's book about the events of 3rd May onwards, we get not a word about the McCanns getting a photo of Amelie's pyjamas to Luis Forra...

...whereas we get a great deal about washing a pair of MADELEINE's pyjamas because of alleged 'tea stain'.


A POLL HAS NOW BEEN OPENED FOR MEMBERS TO GIVE AN OPINION ON WHETHER THESE ARE

AMELIE'S 

or MADELEINE'S 

PYJAMAS





.


.

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 15833
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 72
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by Jill Havern on 26.01.20 5:29

Here's an item from way back in 2011 which I've been sent from the 'Lost Marketing Ploy' blog about whether those pyjamas were Madeleine's or Amelie's. 


Oh What Big Pj's You Have!

 
Friday, 8 April 2011
 
Oh What Big Pj's You Have!


Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie19


Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Maddie20

 
 
Posted by KaOssis at 05:04

And from the comments section:
 
Megafundline   10 April 2011 at 22:07
 
This seems to be in the right proportions so very well done Ka Ossis for this, it's a mightily good idea! - but we don't know if once on Amelie, how they would fit.(the top of the legs-part could perhaps go more up, once on? ). However:
 
the pjs look by the way like shorts (knee level), and why would a mum buy the exact same pair anyway for 2 girls of different ages, that wouldn't help getting fast for the washings, by commodity mums avoid doing this - so yes it looks like these would fit Maddie more than Amelie. And if they were Maddie's then... ah ah ah, the big lie again since they said that she was wearing them when "abducted".
 
unless the McCanns bought them specially for the occasion, thinking 'mmh... we will keep them for Amelie when she's bigger' Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Icon_wink
 
had she not said they came in a pack, perhaps wanting to make people believe that Maddy was wearing the other set, and that we "can buy several clothes with different sizes" in the same pack!
 
if so Kate, no no no, we all know that we can't buy anything of different sizes in a same pack. Lol.
 
Imo, of course Maddie wasn't even wearing pyjamas (that we see here) when she went 'missing' and she wasn't abducted, she wasn't on her own when she died, there was an adult with her. Imo means "in my opinion". Oh and I wonder, McCanns why you get this protection to manage to stay above the law for everything you are implicated into. I hope that a good investigation is on you behind your backs.
 
Reply
 
KaOssis   16 April 2011 at 21:28
 
That's right megafundline, there's absolutely no way those pj's would fit Amelie, she'd have to be wearing stilts for her feet to come out of the bottoms, lol.
 
Would a mother of an abducted child put another one of their children in the same kind of pj's that their oldest child was abducted in?... noooo way, that's just tooo macabre, because a real mother's response would be emotional trauma and mental breakdown seeing another one of her children wearing the same kind of pj's that her eldest daughter was abducted in, it would give any mother flippin nightmares and constant worry of having another daughter abducted; however, it does show how cold and lacking in emotional empathy the McCann's really are in putting Amelie in the same kind of pj's as Madeleine was supposed to have been wearing the night she was abducted, that's how mentally unfit to be parents these types of psychotics behave, they just don't give a f___ as long as they get the mortgage paid for, the legal team paid for, the crap detectives paid for, theirs and their family's holidays abroad gets paid for, their public relations Clarence Mitchell paid for, and paying the police off, especially the Metropolitan police, they all have a bad habit of taking bribes cose the McCann's buddy Gordon Brown and his Labour govment mucked up the economy, so the Mccanns know how to get away with anything if they pay for it!
 
I did read somewhere that Amaral purchased a set of the same pj's sometime during the investigation, but can't seem to locate the story, so perhaps it wasn't true? But what's sussy about that is, how would Amaral get hold of the same type of pj's in the Algarve when the McCann's purchased their two sets of Eeyore pj's in the UK?, or did the Batista supermarket sell the same pj's and the McCann's purchased their two sets there prior to Madeleine's abduction, cos the McCanns have never stated where they purchased their pj's from anyway, but that begs the question of how many sets of pj's the McCanns packed at home for a week’s holiday, because knowing kids that young, instinctively a mother would pack at least 2 sets for each child, and they'd wear one set while the 2nd set was washed and drying, so did Kate pack a couple of sets of pj's for each of her children, or did they forget them and bought new ones at the Baptista supermarket when they got there?
 
Reply
 
Megafundline  16 April 2011 at 22:33
 
Hi Ka, yes it would be macabre, but Kate did this for other items too! She made Amelie wear Maddie's shoes after the 'missing' event!
 
also remember, the 'pool hat'! and the shorts as well from the tennis pic!!!
 
I'll try to find the time over Easter Holidays to publish this in photos and extracts of press interviews.
 
WHO in the right mind would DO that?! Well Kate Healy so-called mother of 'missing Madeleine' did.
 
Reply
 
Megafundline  16 April 2011 at 22:35
 
having said this , I repeat that I think that Maddie never was in pyjamas when she went 'missing'...and I think that the McCanns well know what's happened to her.
 
Reply
 
Megafundline   17 April 2011 at 03:03
 
ALL this IN THIS CIRCUS CASE is in my opinion, except from a few solid FACTS that by the way make us goin loopy conversation - so "Blast'!!" I don't have the time or the leisure to feed this or burden my brain with it - a big bunch of 'rumoured things' to make the public talk and wonder.
 
Remember the "SYRINGE" so-called leaked element, in the press, who had been reporting on this? -  a so-called 'syringe' that was found in the 5a flat.. soon after were about a "bloody footprint"...
 
then on and on... the forensics,, 'wow'... lol
 
ALL THIS IS IN MY OPINION, JUST SENSATION-MATERIAL, ***PURE FICTION AGAIN***, TO FUEL THE 'NEED' OF BUYING BOOKS AND NEWSPAPERS, AND MAKE AN AUDIENCE FOR THE TV MOCKUMENTARIES! NOTHING ELSE! MARKETING PLOYS!!!!!
 
Reply
 
KaOssis   18 April 2011 at 09:49
 
Lol, you’re right, it's all just a marketing ploy, and like I said, there's that many photos of different children, including one of Kate herself as a 5 year old, that's been used as their Madeleine, it's just incredible that so many people actually still throw money into the McCanns fund and can't see the obvious discrepancies in all the Madeleine photos that the McCanns have published themselves, it's sounding more like an extortion racket rather than a fund to locate a missing child. At the end of the day, only a criminal would believe in a lie, especially one that keeps them out of jail, and the amount of people feeding the McCanns fund must have a lot of crimes to be ashamed of, as it's a widely known fact that Freemasons will use any ransom tactic to boost their own bank accounts, and Jim Gamble was in a prime position in CEOP to access all the police records data for a list of criminals to hold to ransom, and with the McCanns’ list of the public's names on their petition to review the case, they're sure to locate them at their most recent IP addresses... like I said, an extortion racket!
 
Reply
 
Megafundline  6 May 2011 at 10:44


As if these could be Amelie's pj's then, the neck part has even been stretched through MADELEINE putting them on, it shows on the fabric, and it would be way too big for toddler Amelie then!!!

http://thelostmarketingploy.blogspot.com/2011/04/blog-post.html

____________________
PeterMac's FREE e-book
Gonçalo Amaral: The truth of the lie
NEW CMOMM & MMRG Blog
George Orwell, '1984': "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
Jill Havern
Jill Havern
Chief Faffer
Chief Faffer

Posts : 17383
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by sharonl on 26.01.20 10:01

Not forgetting that these pyjamas were purchased in 2006 when Amelie was even smaller.

Kate is said to have dressed Amelie in Madeleine's clothes and claims that she also wore her sandals. Why was this claimed? Was it after the size of the pjs were questioned?

Maybe by 3rd May, these were Amelie's PJs, having been passed down from her late sister.

======= 

A POLL HAS NOW BEEN OPENED FOR MEMBERS TO GIVE AN OPINION ON WHETHER THESE ARE

AMELIE'S 

or MADELEINE'S 

PYJAMAS

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron
sharonl
sharonl
Co-Admin
Co-Admin

Posts : 6875
Join date : 2009-12-29

http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job' - Page 12 Empty Re: Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Post by BlueBag on 26.01.20 21:30

Sorry.

So what?
BlueBag
BlueBag

Posts : 5844
Join date : 2014-06-06

Back to top Go down

Page 12 of 14 Previous  1 ... 7 ... 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum