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Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Jill Havern on 02.08.18 12:59



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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Crackfox on 02.08.18 14:11

Thanks for clearing that up Verdi. Surely, even if we take the blue background out of the equation, there are still some very serious misnomers and questions to ask? Why would there be a  photograph released to the press and isn't it coincidental that the date the EPA received it corresponds with the date we know at least one other photograph of dubious provenance was also released? Why would the family prioritise releasing an image of pyjamas over the release of 'the last photo' which would surely have been a lot more helpful in the search for their daughter than an image of pyjamas that no one is going to remember accurately - not even JT who allegedly saw them on the night. More shenanigans IMO. I'm sure this will rumble on...

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 02.08.18 15:22

@Crackfox wrote:Thanks for clearing that up Verdi. Surely, even if we take the blue background out of the equation, there are still some very serious misnomers and questions to ask? Why would there be a  photograph released to the press and isn't it coincidental that the date the EPA received it corresponds with the date we know at least one other photograph of dubious provenance was also released? Why would the family prioritise releasing an image of pyjamas over the release of 'the last photo' which would surely have been a lot more helpful in the search for their daughter than an image of pyjamas that no one is going to remember accurately - not even JT who allegedly saw them on the night. More shenanigans IMO. I'm sure this will rumble on...
Sorry you've lost me.  This is the information about the pyjama photograph direct from the EPA, the photograph was taken (created) on 5th May 2007 ..

British missing girl photo information


Photographer
LUIS FORRA
Medianumber
01005211
Date Created
05.05.2007

Region
West Europe > Portugal > PORTIMAO
Category
Crime, Law and Justice
Title
PORTUGAL BRITISH MISSING GIRL
Headline
British missing girl

Description
epa01005211 Pyjama equal to the one Madeleine McCann, the three year old British child, who went missing last week in the Ocean Club village of Praia da Luz, is displayed by the police, Portimao, Portugal, 10 May 2007. EPA/LUIS FORRA


Credit

EPA
Source
LUSA
Caption Writer
JR/PC/MA PT/JS/TP/AR
Image Size
1440px x 2048px
12,2cm x 17,3cm (300dpi)

http://www.epa.eu/crime-law-and-justice-photos/police-photos/british-missing-girl-photos-01005211

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 02.08.18 15:36


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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.08.18 15:38

@Verdi wrote:Size is relative - in short, if the cap fits wear it!   Too much wishing based on fabricated information. such a familiar pattern seen over the past 11 + years.

To put it simply, why would the McCanns promote the nightwear Madeleine was wearing when she was abducted - it doesn't make any sense.  If Madeleine was abducted then her nightwear was abducted with her,  would the McCanns be so crass as to draw attention to the pyjamas as those she was wearing when abducted?

As much as I respect the diligence of Dr Martin Roberts over the years, I think this particular issue is more wishful thinking, or exaggerated hype than factual information.  It's a theory based on a personal perception but appears to have been taken as gospel by the hungry onlooker, just how many similar situations have been witnessed over the past years?  If the content suits your own particular mindset then it's gospel, if it doesn't then it's open to discussion and/or criticism, or even total dismissal - the latter being my position.

Back to basics - the original  image of the pair of pyjamas under such close scrutiny, according to the European Press Agency, clearly shows a background of dark grey textured cloth, NOT blue which so much of this conspiracy has been built on, leading to the belief that the photograph was taken in Ocean Club apartment 5a.  It would appear someone was making mischief when the image morphed from a grey to blue backcloth.

Maddie's jammies?  Hogwash, there is no proof this was ever said - just more media hype emanating from Team McCann.


The McCanns European/North African tour, seemingly organised by Clarence Mitchell and associates, was just a show.  It had no substance or purpose, a publicity exercise pure and simple.  The publicised pyjamas represented abduction - problem being Madeleine was most definitely not abducted, a show to fool the masses and it worked with great eclat.  Kate McCann's bewk followed the same pattern as regards media hype.
@ Verdi    We both agree that disagreement is fine on this forum where people have a reasonable basis for advancing their views and opinions.

However, your post appears to accuse Nigel Moore and Dr Martin Roberts of skullduggery.

You allege that:

1  "It is based on fabricated information"

2  "It is based on wishful thinking"

3  "It is exaggerated hype"

4  "Someone [meaning Dr Martin Roberts, or someone else whom you have not identified] was [deliberately] making mischief"

5  "He is guilty of a 'conspiracy'."

These are serious accusations against a generally highly esteemed fellow researcher.

=====

I wonder if you have had time to consider the Press Association photo that Jill posted (clearly showing 'PA' in the bottom right corner).

You would have to consider precisely how, when and why the EPA photo appears to show a blue-grey/grey background while the PA photo shows a background that is quite a bright blue.

I am not sure that we will ever be able to answer that, but have you considered (a) that the EPA version of this photograph may be far the more accurate of the two or (b) that BOTH the EPA and PA versions may have been taken from an original photograph taken either by the McCanns or someone else?

After all ,we know from the Tennis Balls Photo, which says it was 'Created' on Saturday 5 May, that that date was NOT the date the original photograph was actually taken (IF, of course, the McCanns are correct in saying that Madeleine was alive on either Monday, Tuesday or Thursday - the three various dates they and their friends say it was taken).

=====

I turn now to this comment of yours:

QUOTE:  "Maddie's jammies?  Hogwash, there is no proof this was ever said - just more media hype emanating from Team McCann".

First off,  why on earth do you suggest that this comment is 'more media hype emanating from Team McCann'? - when, in fact, the reported comment ['Maddie's jammies. Where is Maddie?'] actually seriously DAMAGES the McCanns' claims about the pyjamas. Because, of course, Amelia is basically saying: "Hey. Those are Maddie's pyjamas, not mine".

I accept we do not have definitive 'proof' that Amelie said those words, but it IS undoubtedly EVIDENCE. To me, and others on the forum, it seems the most natural comment for a 2-year-old to say when she sees her elder sister's pyjamas. To my mind therefore it appears to have the 'ring of truth about it, and it is evidence we can certainly take into account, even if we may attach relatively little weight to it.

=====

I am not accusing you of bad faith here, I am just asking you to reconsider some of the things you have stated in your post

=====

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 02.08.18 15:38


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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.08.18 15:54

We also have to consider whether Martin Brunt made a slip-up here, when he said this:

Martin Brunt

http://www.bjr.org.uk/data/2007/no4_brunt

"The Portuguese police are another lot who don't want to tell anyone what they are up to. Okay, they have a judicial secrecy law, but should that have stopped them making public appeals for help in tracing a missing three-year-old? A news conference was an alien concept to the beleaguered detectives searching for Madeleine McCann, but they were eventually badgered into one. It ended in chaos, live of course, and we learned very little from it.


The McCann family themselves had to issue pictures of their daughter and the pyjamas she was wearing on the night she disappeared.

I have as many police contacts in Portugal as I have on Jupiter, so this was always going to be a tricky one, but you would expect to make some progress with the local cops over a glass of Mateus Rose. Yet all attempts were met with a rebuff, usually accompanied by the chewing of a moustache, the shaking of a head and the wagging of a finger (try doing all that at once). I got the message."

====

How can we explain this? Where did the McCanns get that photograph from? Notice that Martin Brunt most certainly does NOT say: "The McCanns themselves had to use a photo they took after Thursday 3rd May of Amelie's pyjamas - which by a remarkable coincidence were exactly the same type and of similar size to the ones Madeleine was wearing when she was abducted". 
   
=====


I also think it is useful to add these previous comments of Dr Martin Roberts:

March 25, 2012
ANOTHER STORY
By Dr Martin Roberts

But whoever it was that members of the Smith family actually saw being carried, it could not have been Madeleine McCann in her Eeyore pyjamas.
The child seen by Aoife Smith was said to have been wearing a long-sleeved top. If one is prepared to accept that Jane Tanner can discern the colour of a garment from some distance away, in the dark, when she cannot even see the item in question, then it is even more reasonable to accept the accuracy of Aoife Smith's close-up description.


August 23, 2012
'OUT, DAMN'D SPOT'
By Dr Martin Roberts

Kate's transient preoccupation with those Eeyore pyjamas may have been indicative of nothing more than a concern for 'keeping up appearances'.

And then, irony of ironies, with Kate having made a special point of washing out a seemingly innocuous stain, the pyjamas are abducted, never to be seen again.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id400.html



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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 02.08.18 15:56

@Tony Bennett wrote:@ Verdi    We both agree that disagreement is fine on this forum where people have a reasonable basis for advancing their views and opinions.

However, your post appears to accuse Nigel Moore and Dr Martin Roberts of skullduggery.

You allege that:

1  "It is based on fabricated information"

2  "It is based on wishful thinking"

3  "It is exaggerated hype"

4  "Someone [meaning Dr Martin Roberts, or someone else whom you have not identified] was [deliberately] making mischief"

5  "He is guilty of a 'conspiracy'."

These are serious accusations against a generally highly esteemed fellow researcher.
Goodness me, I make no such accusations - I'm astonished you could even think so let alone express your thoughts.

My sincere apologies if that's how my comments came across.

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 02.08.18 16:11

01 Processos Vol I Page 31 to 33a
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_31
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_32
01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_33A
From the PJ

To: The Assistant Prosecutor
Public Ministry


Date: 04-05-2007



Subject: Request for Divulgation by means of the Press



As it is of clear interest to the investigation of the case in reference, I have the honour to ask you to authorise the divulgation of the disappearance of the young girl Madeleine McCann by means of the organs of the press, with the aim of obtaining information leading to her whereabouts.

I enclose a model for divulgation.

With best compliments

The Coordinator of the Investigation.

G. Amaral



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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.08.18 16:51

@Verdi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:@ Verdi    We both agree that disagreement is fine on this forum where people have a reasonable basis for advancing their views and opinions.

However, your post appears to accuse Nigel Moore and Dr Martin Roberts of skullduggery.

You allege that:

1  "It is based on fabricated information"

2  "It is based on wishful thinking"

3  "It is exaggerated hype"

4  "Someone [meaning Dr Martin Roberts, or someone else whom you have not identified] was [deliberately] making mischief"

5  "He is guilty of a 'conspiracy'."

These are serious accusations against a generally highly esteemed fellow researcher.
Goodness me, I make no such accusations - I'm astonished you could even think so let alone express your thoughts.

My sincere apologies if that's how my comments came across.


REPLY BY TONY BENNETT

But, @ Verdi, the words I used above to list your criticisms of Dr Martin Roberts were all taken verbatim from your very own earlier post about his research!  

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Joseetje on 05.08.18 18:06

It seems to me, it doesn´t really matter whose pj´s they are, fact is that the mc Canns were relocated that night, if they took the picture, it must have been right after Madeleine supposedly disappeared. While they were frantic, non functioning, searching, running around and checking on the twins to see if they were breathing without calling the hospital. Yeah, right..... What does Amaral say about the picture and where it came from?
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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 05.08.18 23:56

I'm inclined to agree - what does it matter whose pyjamas were being bandied about during the European tour?  One thing is for certain, no matter how one cares to interpret this apparent PR exercise, the McCanns would not publicize or promote the pair of pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing when she was allegedly abducted.

The prevalent theory is built on media reports and interviews, any one with an ounce of savvy knows that the UK media are less than reliable as regards truth.  They sensationalize to sell copy - it really is a simple as that. 

A notion that the McCanns took the photograph of the pyjamas featured in the PJ files and sourced to the EPA (European Press Agency), is likewise built on the colour of the background, eagerly linked to the upholstery of the sofa photographed in apartment 5a - because of the colour blue!

The flaw with this theory is the very fact that the original photograph as photographed by it's custodian, the EPA, clearly shows the backcloth to be dark grey.



Admittedly the backcloth appear to be blue in the PJ's press release but that's really beside the point, there could be any number of explanations for this.



In short, there is nothing concrete or even vaguely consistant to suggest the McCanns took the photograph of the pyjamas.  

What did Gonçalo Amaral have to say on the subject?  Why would he say anything?  As previously stated, the photograph is included in the PJ files and accredited to a specific photographer by the EPA, what is to say?

It's routine policing.

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by joyce1938 on 06.08.18 0:09

Yes I believe it was said that some apartments had blue furniture but not 5A. so as you say it wasn't taken where some think ,it was. joyce1938
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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Phoebe on 06.08.18 17:12

As I understand it, Dr. Roberts was questioning why the P.J. would have bothered to photograph a pair of pyjamas which were incorrect in style (featuring a button-tie at the back, and which were smaller than the "real" pair) then later, go to the bother of repeating this by photographing an exact match (acquired from M&S) which showed a scale comparison and a much clearer image of both front AND back views. The photograph of "Amelie's"  is a very amateur effort, being too distant from the item and taken in poor lighting. On the other hand, the police photo included in the forensic report is a much more professional job. This, together with the fact that the McCanns published this second-rate photo days before the P.J. released it, seems to suggest that it was passed onto the P.J. rather than taken officially by them. 


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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 0:00

Disregarding anything published by the media or traipsed around Europe during the McCanns campaign tour, there are two entriely seperate issues at play here.

The photograph of the pair of pyjamas taken by a photographer for the EPA (European Press Agency), were used by the PJ for their official 'missing person' notice released into the public domain.





The photograph of the pyjamas provided by M&S, as also included in the PJ files, were used by the forensic laboratory to compare the fabric with fibres harvested during the forensic examination of apartment 5a and elsewhere.  Hence inclusion in the investigation documentation - the PJ files.



The rest is just window dressing.

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 0:06

07 Processos Vol VII Page 1713
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1713

To: Police Scientific Laboratory
Lisbon

5th June 2007

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Phoebe on 07.08.18 1:08

@Verdi wrote:07 Processos Vol VII Page 1713
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1713

To: Police Scientific Laboratory
Lisbon

5th June 2007

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.

The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.

The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.

The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.

With compliments

Signed

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Goncalo Amaral
Acccording to the letter above, by May 5th the P.J. had access to pyjamas which were identical to those allegedly worn by Madeleine, ie. the camisol is WITHOUT a button-neck fastening. If this is the case one has to wonder why the police would bother taking a photo of pyjamas which are different in that they clearly feature a button fastening. I think this is Dr. Robert's point.

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Re: Dr Martin Roberts - A nightwear job

Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 1:36

The communication between the Portuguese Police Scientific Laboratory and the case coordinator Goncalo Amaral, is dated 5th June 2007, not 5th May.

Button fastening or no button fastening is immaterial.  I thought I'd explained without reason to doubt.  The pyjamas provided by Marks and Spencers were used to compare fibres with those harvested at the crime scene, that is why they appear in the PJ files in their own right.

The reasoning is perfectly clear - I can't see where the confusion lies.

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