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When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Columbo on 08.02.16 18:06

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 
I totally agree that Catriona Baker was not an important witness nor a witness of any description
I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.

And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm.

It's clear that Goncalo Amaral did not believe the whole David Payne-Kate McCann dance about THAT visit at 6.30pm by Payne to G5A, was it 30 seconds or several minutes?, did he enter the apartment or not?, was Kate dressed only in a towel? etc. etc. 

But he DID believe Cat Baker's account of the 'high tea' - and on that shaky foundation, he concluded that Madeleine was alive at 6pm.

Hideho did a good article on all the high tea discrepancies back in 2010:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/HiDeHo-Posts/Catriona-and-Creche-Inconsistencies-1-802393.html

And Cat Baker's evidence has convinced a good many others apart from Amaral: Pat Brown, Johanna Renstein, Textusa and our own pennylane to name but a few
For those of us like Pennylane and myself who think something happened to MBM on 3 May these visits and events are all crucial.

Working backwards:

DP's visit

Did DP's visit happen? If so, which version and more importantly, did he see MBM alive? If the visit is ficticious or he didn't see MBM then it's back to...

The High Tea

Did this actually happen? Was MBM there? If not, then it's back to...

Thursday PM creche

Was MBM there? If she was, was she there the whole time?

Playtime

Was MBM in the play area from 1330 to 1430? This is when the disputed last pic is supposed to have been taken.

And so on, back through lunch in the apartment, morning creche, breakfast in the apartment etc.

It all comes down to which point in the day (or the preceding week) we respectively believe that someone, apart from the parents, saw MBM alive. For me, it's the High Tea. I accept there are problems and discrepancies with that, but there seem to be with just about every moment of that week.

I think the time around DP's alleged visit is crucial. If I had a time machine, that's the moment I'd go back to. It's at that time that I think - whether DP was there or not - that something happened to MBM and led to all that has followed.

All just supposition and my "tuppence worth".
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by hogwash on 08.02.16 18:21

Is that the visit where DP said all the children were ready for bed, dressed in white like angels?

Yet Madeleine disappeared in pinkish pyjamas?

Did the abductor get her changed before he took her, leaving no evidence behind?
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 19:44

@hogwash wrote:Is that the visit where DP said all the children were ready for bed, dressed in white like angels?

Yet Madeleine disappeared in pinkish pyjamas?

Did the abductor get her changed before he took her, leaving no evidence behind?
It's all in the mind winkwink !

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 19:51

@Columbo wrote:  For those of us like Pennylane and myself who think something happened to MBM on 3 May these visits and events are all crucial.

That's the problem and has been since the very beginning.  Picture if you can - a group of tourists on a weeks holiday report to the local police that one of their children has gone missing.  In fairness to the GNR and PJ, all they had to guide them, at that stage, was the information provided by the parents McCann and their friends, under the circumstances the logical first reaction would be that the child had wandered off somewhere, especially as the parents said they had left the patio door unlocked.  It wasn't very long (about 24 hours I believe) before the PJ coordinated by Goncalo Amaral realised that the groups account of events didn't accord. 

I for one don't believe for a moment that David Payne ever made that visit to the McCanns apartment early evening on 3rd May, I believe it was a contrived story to place a living Madeleine in the apartment at the specified time frame.  If you compare the statements, the group can't even agree amongst themselves as to who was where and when. 

What particular event convinces you that Madeleine was alive early evening on 3rd May when there are so many unexplained incidents during the week?  The group apparently went on this short break because they were 'so into each other' and had similar tastes in leisure activities (?) yet if you read between the lines, the only real time they all spent together as a group was dinner at the Tapas restaurant.  According the the various statements, after the first full day they breakfasted together at the Millenium - without the McCann family and they lunched together at the Paynes gaff - without the McCann family.

On the Thursday they all went to the beach together - without the McCann family.  The only quasi togetherness seemed to be at the tennis courts but whether or not than can be positively confirmed is a matter of conjecture.  If the creche records are anything to go by, the Ocean Club didn't seem to pay too much attention to accuracy.  Is there any conclusive evidence as to the groups movements during the week?  I don't think so - do you?

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 20:30

So who exactly saw Madeleine at the Tapas teatime on Thursday 3rd?  Discounting the McCanns, their friends and Catriona Baker - an enigma in itself, what independent witness can testify to Madeleine's attendance beyond reasonable doubt? 

The Tapas restaurant cook?

Witness statement - Maria Manuela Jose  [snipped]..



With relation to the facts being investigated, she confirms that on the 4 May 2007, at about 18h30, when arriving for work at the complex, she heard from her supervisor, Steve, that a female child who was staying with her parents and siblings at one of the OC apartments had gone missing on the previous day (3rd May 2007).

When she was informed about the disappearance she did not realise which child this was, it was only later, *upon watching the television news that night and after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was*, referring to her as Madeleine  (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children...




Upon questioning, the witness confirms that on the day of the disappearance, she worked at the restaurant from 10h00 to 18h45, when, having finished her shift, she went home...




Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week...


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html


*It's important here to remember what photographs were issued to the press.

Hardly conclusive is it?  Was there anyone else that can be classed as a bona fide independent witness that can testify to Madeleine's presence at teatime on 3rd May - can't recall off the top of my head.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.02.16 21:45

@Columbo wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 
I totally agree that Catriona Baker was not an important witness nor a witness of any description
I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.

And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm.

It's clear that Goncalo Amaral did not believe the whole David Payne-Kate McCann dance about THAT visit at 6.30pm by Payne to G5A, was it 30 seconds or several minutes?, did he enter the apartment or not?, was Kate dressed only in a towel? etc. etc. 

But he DID believe Cat Baker's account of the 'high tea' - and on that shaky foundation, he concluded that Madeleine was alive at 6pm.

Hideho did a good article on all the high tea discrepancies back in 2010:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/HiDeHo-Posts/Catriona-and-Creche-Inconsistencies-1-802393.html

And Cat Baker's evidence has convinced a good many others apart from Amaral: Pat Brown, Johanna Renstein, Textusa and our own pennylane to name but a few
For those of us like Pennylane and myself who think something happened to MBM on 3 May these visits and events are all crucial.

Working backwards:

DP's visit

Did DP's visit happen? If so, which version and more importantly, did he see MBM alive? If the visit is ficticious or he didn't see MBM then it's back to...

The High Tea

Did this actually happen? Was MBM there? If not, then it's back to...


Thursday PM creche

Was MBM there? If she was, was she there the whole time?

Playtime

Was MBM in the play area from 1330 to 1430? This is when the disputed last pic is supposed to have been taken.

And so on, back through lunch in the apartment, morning creche, breakfast in the apartment etc.

It all comes down to which point in the day (or the preceding week) we respectively believe that someone, apart from the parents, saw MBM alive. For me, it's the High Tea. I accept there are problems and discrepancies with that, but there seem to be with just about every moment of that week.

I think the time around DP's alleged visit is crucial. If I had a time machine, that's the moment I'd go back to. It's at that time that I think - whether DP was there or not - that something happened to MBM and led to all that has followed.

All just supposition and my "tuppence worth".
Hallo @ Columbo    I don't know if I welcomed you to the forum; if not, let's do so now.. welcome!

I very much like your 'let's work backwards' idea, working back from one incident when Madeleine was said to be present, back to the next, and so on - excellent.

Just on the specifics of the alleged David Payne visit, some time ago, I listed the TWENTY separate contradictions I found about that claimed visit.

In looking at them, I suggest that there are three broad possibilities:

1. David Payne was broadly correct (and Kate wrong)
2. Kate McCann was broadly correct (and Payne wrong). or
3. The visit never happened and they are both making up what happened.

I think that alternative (3) stands out as the obvious answer to the riddle. Anyway, here are those '20 Contradictions again:

--------------------------


CONTRADICTION 1: When Dr Payne first mentioned this visit, he said it took place at 5.00pm. Later he changed this to 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 2: Dr Payne first of all said that both Gerry and Kate McCann were there when he visited the apartment. Later he changed this to saying it was just Kate.

CONTRADICTION 3: Although Dr Payne and Kate McCann both claim that Payne visited the McCanns' apartment some time between 6.30pm and 7.00pm on 3rd May, Dr Payne's wife Fiona makes no mention of this in either of her two statements to the police, even though she claims she was watching her husband play tennis throughout this time.

CONTRADICTIONS 4 to 9: Why did this alleged visit take place? On various occasions, at least six different reasons have been given:

(1) just ‘for a visit’

(2) to help take Kate and the children down to the recreation area

(3) to ‘check on Kate’ (see if she was all right)

(4) because Kate ‘might need help in looking after all three children’

(5) 'To see if it was OK for Gerry to carry on playing tennis, and

(6) simply because Dr Payne ‘offered to go and see Kate’.

CONTRADICTION 10: Dr Payne says he walked in through the patio door without knocking. Kate McCann said she was in the shower and heard knocking.

CONTRADICTION 11: Dr Payne says Kate McCann was fully dressed. Kate McCann says she hurriedly put a towel around her and went to the door.

CONTRADICTION 12: Dr Payne says he walked in though the patio door. Kate McCann said he never entered, saying: 'he remained at the balcony door’.

CONTRADICTION 13: Dr Payne says we was in the apartment for at least ‘3 to 5 minutes'. Kate McCann says he remained on the balcony and she sent him away after no more than '30 seconds'.

CONTRADICTION 14: Dr Payne says he saw all three children. Kate doesn’t mention this.

CONTRADICTION 15: A newspaper story based on information supplied by ‘a source close to the McCanns’ claimed that Dr Payne ‘saw Kate putting the children to bed’. Neither Dr Payne nor Kate McCann mention this.

CONTRADICTION 16: In early statements, the McCanns said they took their children up to their apartment at 5.40pm, staying there until leaving for dinner at 8.30pm. But Dr Payne and Kate McCann say that Gerry McCann was not there at 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 17: Later, Gerry McCann changed his statement to say he was at the tennis courts at 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 18: The McCanns initially said that they had decided, as they went up to their apartment, that the children were too tired to stay and watch the tennis, so they would put them to bed, as they had had an exhausting day. Later the story was changed to say that they had decided no such thing and that Dr Payne had gone up to see if Kate McCann was going to bring the children down to watch the tennis match.

CONTRADICTION 19: Gerry McCann initially said that Dr Payne went up to see Kate McCann at about 6.30pm, and that he came back half-an-hour later at 7.00pm. Dr Payne said he only returned to the tennis court once, but Gerry McCann later changed his statement to say that Dr Payne had returned twice, once after seeing Kate, and then again after (allegedly) changing for tennis.

CONTRADICTION 20: In a report by David James Smith in The Times on 16 December 2007, said to be the ‘fullest account yet’ of what happened on the day Madeleine disappeared, Smith said that Gerry McCann at 4.30pm was ‘too injured with an Achilles tendon injury at 4.30pm to carry on playing tennis’. Yet later he claimed he was playing tennis again in a‘social tennis’ competition from 6.00pm to 7.00pm.

----- 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10076-yes-or-no-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-madeleine-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by BlueBag on 09.02.16 8:26

@Tony Bennett wrote:1. David Payne was broadly correct (and Kate MASSIVELY wrong)
2. Kate McCann was broadly correct (and Payne MASSIVELY wrong). or
3. The visit never happened and they are both making up what happened.

A small correction Tony.
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by kaz on 09.02.16 9:20

@Verdi wrote:@Columbo wrote:  For those of us like Pennylane and myself who think something happened to MBM on 3 May these visits and events are all crucial.

That's the problem and has been since the very beginning.  Picture if you can - a group of tourists on a weeks holiday report to the local police that one of their children has gone missing.  In fairness to the GNR and PJ, all they had to guide them, at that stage, was the information provided by the parents McCann and their friends, under the circumstances the logical first reaction would be that the child had wandered off somewhere, especially as the parents said they had left the patio door unlocked.  It wasn't very long (about 24 hours I believe) before the PJ coordinated by Goncalo Amaral realised that the groups account of events didn't accord. 

I for one don't believe for a moment that David Payne ever made that visit to the McCanns apartment early evening on 3rd May, I believe it was a contrived story to place a living Madeleine in the apartment at the specified time frame.  If you compare the statements, the group can't even agree amongst themselves as to who was where and when. 

What particular event convinces you that Madeleine was alive early evening on 3rd May when there are so many unexplained incidents during the week?  The group apparently went on this short break because they were 'so into each other' and had similar tastes in leisure activities (?) yet if you read between the lines, the only real time they all spent together as a group was dinner at the Tapas restaurant.  According the the various statements, after the first full day they breakfasted together at the Millenium - without the McCann family and they lunched together at the Paynes gaff - without the McCann family.

On the Thursday they all went to the beach together - without the McCann family.  The only quasi togetherness seemed to be at the tennis courts but whether or not than can be positively confirmed is a matter of conjecture.  If the creche records are anything to go by, the Ocean Club didn't seem to pay too much attention to accuracy.  Is there any conclusive evidence as to the groups movements during the week?  I don't think so - do you?
Never have so few words spoke so much and the single  question mark speaks the loudest!!!!

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by BlueBag on 09.02.16 11:42

On the Thursday they all went to the beach together - without the McCann family.

A red flag for any Policeman interested in bog standard policing.

I'm sure Grange have asked them about that.

Maybe.
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 09.02.16 12:05

Apropos of the groups communal activities on Thursday 3rd and looking for some conclusive evidence thereof, I had another read of the Mark Warner tennis coach duo witness statements, both taken on 8th May..

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Georgina_Jackson.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAN-STUK.htm

Almost identical wording!  This could of course be the way in which the interviews were conducted and/or the routine questions asked - on the other hand it could be that both were translated by ROBERT MURAT Esq.  Whatever, it is interesting to note that the timings for the McCanns tennis sessions on the Thursday, as specified in the above statements, accord with those so strongly emphasized by the McCanns in their various witness statements and other 'sources'.  Remarkable considering their generally vague recollection of prior days.

ETA:  Not forgetting Kate McCann found time to squeeze in a jog along the beach, which just happened to be witnessed by the rest of the group.  Was it necessary to place KM somewhere at that particular time or was it a hoax distraction?  Problem is, as always in this case, nobody was ever around to verify the claims made by the group.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.02.16 12:23

@Verdi wrote:ETA:  Not forgetting Kate McCann found time to squeeze in a jog along the beach, which just happened to be witnessed by the rest of the group. 
If her account is correct, she arrived at the supposed 'high tea' at 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May in her running gear.

She must have looked a very strange sight walking back to her apartment (as she testifies) carrying a 'pale, tired, worn out' Madeleine in her running gear.

Another query that arises directly from considering these claims is why it was Kate that had to carry a tired Madeleine back to the apartment, but not Gerry, who she says was with her.

Ungentlemanly.

(If true)

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Doug D on 09.02.16 12:43

I’ve still got an inkling that this is KM on the beach in her running gear in these photos, but unfortunately we’re not going to be able to prove it one way or another. Would mess up the ‘high tea’ timetable though.
 
3/5/07 @ 17.38
 

 
17.46
 

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 09.02.16 12:47

Snipped from David Payne's rogatory interview.  Remember, this is the random ramblings of a  well educated doctor - at least so we've been told..

..Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in.

So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since [?] then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know [?], for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

No, I don't know Dr. Payne but pray - do feel free to elaborate.  Is it me being of the old school, can someone wise me up - is this an example of a new age man?  Seems an extraordinary way of describing another man's child.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 09.02.16 12:55

@Doug D wrote:I’ve still got an inkling that this is KM on the beach in her running gear in these photos, but unfortunately we’re not going to be able to prove it one way or another. Would mess up the ‘high tea’ timetable though.
 
3/5/07 @ 17.38
 

 
17.46
 
Ah I see, the other side of the veranda, under the para'sole - that would certainly throw a spanner in the works, thank you for that.  Not a very clear picture but it doesn't look as though anyone at the restaurant is taking any notice of the figure.  Didn't they say they saw her running and waved? 

Haven't time now but from recollection the McCanns version of the teatime episode is shaky to say the least - or should I say contradictory?

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.02.16 13:19

@Verdi wrote:
Haven't time now but from recollection the McCanns version of the teatime episode is shaky to say the least - or should I say contradictory?
Not only that, but there are four different accounts of that alleged 'high tea', none of them saying the same thing:

1. Catriona Baker
2. Gerry McCann 
3. Kate McCann
4. Charlotte Pennington

PLUS the crèche records don't agree with some of their statements

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 09.02.16 14:14

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Columbo wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 
I totally agree that Catriona Baker was not an important witness nor a witness of any description
I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.

And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm.

It's clear that Goncalo Amaral did not believe the whole David Payne-Kate McCann dance about THAT visit at 6.30pm by Payne to G5A, was it 30 seconds or several minutes?, did he enter the apartment or not?, was Kate dressed only in a towel? etc. etc. 

But he DID believe Cat Baker's account of the 'high tea' - and on that shaky foundation, he concluded that Madeleine was alive at 6pm.

Hideho did a good article on all the high tea discrepancies back in 2010:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/HiDeHo-Posts/Catriona-and-Creche-Inconsistencies-1-802393.html

And Cat Baker's evidence has convinced a good many others apart from Amaral: Pat Brown, Johanna Renstein, Textusa and our own pennylane to name but a few
For those of us like Pennylane and myself who think something happened to MBM on 3 May these visits and events are all crucial.

Working backwards:

DP's visit

Did DP's visit happen? If so, which version and more importantly, did he see MBM alive? If the visit is ficticious or he didn't see MBM then it's back to...

The High Tea

Did this actually happen? Was MBM there? If not, then it's back to...


Thursday PM creche

Was MBM there? If she was, was she there the whole time?

Playtime

Was MBM in the play area from 1330 to 1430? This is when the disputed last pic is supposed to have been taken.

And so on, back through lunch in the apartment, morning creche, breakfast in the apartment etc.

It all comes down to which point in the day (or the preceding week) we respectively believe that someone, apart from the parents, saw MBM alive. For me, it's the High Tea. I accept there are problems and discrepancies with that, but there seem to be with just about every moment of that week.

I think the time around DP's alleged visit is crucial. If I had a time machine, that's the moment I'd go back to. It's at that time that I think - whether DP was there or not - that something happened to MBM and led to all that has followed.

All just supposition and my "tuppence worth".
Hallo @ Columbo    I don't know if I welcomed you to the forum; if not, let's do so now.. welcome!

I very much like your 'let's work backwards' idea, working back from one incident when Madeleine was said to be present, back to the next, and so on - excellent.

Just on the specifics of the alleged David Payne visit, some time ago, I listed the TWENTY separate contradictions I found about that claimed visit.

In looking at them, I suggest that there are three broad possibilities:

1. David Payne was broadly correct (and Kate wrong)
2. Kate McCann was broadly correct (and Payne wrong). or
3. The visit never happened and they are both making up what happened.

I think that alternative (3) stands out as the obvious answer to the riddle. Anyway, here are those '20 Contradictions again:

--------------------------


CONTRADICTION 1: When Dr Payne first mentioned this visit, he said it took place at 5.00pm. Later he changed this to 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 2: Dr Payne first of all said that both Gerry and Kate McCann were there when he visited the apartment. Later he changed this to saying it was just Kate.

CONTRADICTION 3: Although Dr Payne and Kate McCann both claim that Payne visited the McCanns' apartment some time between 6.30pm and 7.00pm on 3rd May, Dr Payne's wife Fiona makes no mention of this in either of her two statements to the police, even though she claims she was watching her husband play tennis throughout this time.

CONTRADICTIONS 4 to 9: Why did this alleged visit take place? On various occasions, at least six different reasons have been given:

(1) just ‘for a visit’

(2) to help take Kate and the children down to the recreation area

(3) to ‘check on Kate’ (see if she was all right)

(4) because Kate ‘might need help in looking after all three children’

(5) 'To see if it was OK for Gerry to carry on playing tennis, and

(6) simply because Dr Payne ‘offered to go and see Kate’.

CONTRADICTION 10: Dr Payne says he walked in through the patio door without knocking. Kate McCann said she was in the shower and heard knocking.

CONTRADICTION 11: Dr Payne says Kate McCann was fully dressed. Kate McCann says she hurriedly put a towel around her and went to the door.

CONTRADICTION 12: Dr Payne says he walked in though the patio door. Kate McCann said he never entered, saying: 'he remained at the balcony door’.

CONTRADICTION 13: Dr Payne says we was in the apartment for at least ‘3 to 5 minutes'. Kate McCann says he remained on the balcony and she sent him away after no more than '30 seconds'.

CONTRADICTION 14: Dr Payne says he saw all three children. Kate doesn’t mention this.

CONTRADICTION 15: A newspaper story based on information supplied by ‘a source close to the McCanns’ claimed that Dr Payne ‘saw Kate putting the children to bed’. Neither Dr Payne nor Kate McCann mention this.

CONTRADICTION 16: In early statements, the McCanns said they took their children up to their apartment at 5.40pm, staying there until leaving for dinner at 8.30pm. But Dr Payne and Kate McCann say that Gerry McCann was not there at 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 17: Later, Gerry McCann changed his statement to say he was at the tennis courts at 6.30pm.

CONTRADICTION 18: The McCanns initially said that they had decided, as they went up to their apartment, that the children were too tired to stay and watch the tennis, so they would put them to bed, as they had had an exhausting day. Later the story was changed to say that they had decided no such thing and that Dr Payne had gone up to see if Kate McCann was going to bring the children down to watch the tennis match.

CONTRADICTION 19: Gerry McCann initially said that Dr Payne went up to see Kate McCann at about 6.30pm, and that he came back half-an-hour later at 7.00pm. Dr Payne said he only returned to the tennis court once, but Gerry McCann later changed his statement to say that Dr Payne had returned twice, once after seeing Kate, and then again after (allegedly) changing for tennis.

CONTRADICTION 20: In a report by David James Smith in The Times on 16 December 2007, said to be the ‘fullest account yet’ of what happened on the day Madeleine disappeared, Smith said that Gerry McCann at 4.30pm was ‘too injured with an Achilles tendon injury at 4.30pm to carry on playing tennis’. Yet later he claimed he was playing tennis again in a‘social tennis’ competition from 6.00pm to 7.00pm.

----- 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10076-yes-or-no-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-madeleine-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place
Hi Tony, hello

I think you are unwittingly proving my point, i.e, Maddie's disappearance was not the result of pre-planned staging, but rather a major catastrophe that befell them on the evening of 3rd, followed by a chaotic and desperate attempt to cover their tracks and back fit a story.  Their version/s of events are so disastrously lame and cobbled together that they trip themselves up from every angle.  This is not something they all sat down and discussed and put into action (imho).

Each time I read lists of reasons why some think Maddie died earlier in the week, I become more convinced that she didn't!

Some of the earlier anomalies and deleted phone records may be due to them engaging in an activity that to-date has been successfully covered up.  I believe they may have had access to another premises as a result. This is where my gut leads me thus far........

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by joyce1938 on 09.02.16 15:03

N
Number 3 ,I think was never certified what mrs payne meant ,she did not say her husband  arrived at the same time ,it looked as if ,it could have been Gerald ,as she called him  the husband . joyce1938
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 09.02.16 15:04

@joyce1938 wrote:N
Number 3 ,I think was never certified what mrs payne meant ,she did not say her husband  arrived at the same time ,it looked as if ,it could have been Gerald ,as she called him  the husband . joyce1938
Exactly joyce!

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by joyce1938 on 09.02.16 15:08

Cheers pennylane ,for that reply. Some things just click in your head ,once you have heard things over and over again and read it too.joyce1938
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 09.02.16 15:23

@joyce1938 wrote:Cheers pennylane ,for that reply. Some things just click in your head ,once you have heard things over and over again and read it too.joyce1938
I agree!

It's also amazing how many times I have disagreed with others' interpretations, when I have taken the time to check things out for myself, which I did a great deal of in the past.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 09.02.16 15:38

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:ETA:  Not forgetting Kate McCann found time to squeeze in a jog along the beach, which just happened to be witnessed by the rest of the group. 
If her account is correct, she arrived at the supposed 'high tea' at 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May in her running gear.

She must have looked a very strange sight walking back to her apartment (as she testifies) carrying a 'pale, tired, worn out' Madeleine in her running gear.

Another query that arises directly from considering these claims is why it was Kate that had to carry a tired Madeleine back to the apartment, but not Gerry, who she says was with her.

Ungentlemanly.

(If true)
Snipped from Kate McCanns interview on 6th September 2007..

The lesson ended an hour later, at around 4:30 p.m. Gerry continued playing tennis with a guest called JULIAN who belonged to his tennis group, while she went for a jog along the beach, for around half an hour. During that period she saw the rest of the group, children and grownups; she was disappointed as nobody had told her that they were going to the beach and Madeleine surely would have loved to have gone with them. She cannot confirm whether she went to the apartment between the tennis game and the jog.

When she finished jogging, at around 5:20/5:30 p.m., she went to the Tapas area. Gerry was there, as well as the twins and Madeleine who were having dinner at separate tables. Madeleine had been taken to the area by the nannies. Her parents were required to sign the register when the meal was over, at around 5.30 p.m.. During the meal Kate asked Madeleine if she was sad because the other children in the group had gone to the beach without her; she replied that she wasn’t, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment, as well. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.


a)  She may have gone jogging in her tennis frock?
b)  Why on this occassion, 4 months after Madeleine's disappearance, does she see the need to particularly mention the signing of the register?
c)  KM specifically recalls the timing yet something that requires physical action, like going to the apartment to change, she doesn't remember?
d)Rather a coincidence that, again 4 months later, she recalls signing the creche register at 5.30 pm, which just happens to be the exact time shown on the register for that afternoon.
e)  Why does KM see the need to specifiy that Madeleine's tiredness was due to intense daily activity and not to any sickness? 

I've often wondered how much information concerning the investigation was being fed to the McCanns in the early days - and by whom!

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 09.02.16 15:41

Sorry, don't know where all that junk's come from.  Useless me trying to recifiy, from experience it only makes matters worse.

howdy

I've tidied it up for you - Admin

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.02.16 15:55

@pennylane wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:N
Number 3 ,I think was never certified what mrs payne meant ,she did not say her husband  arrived at the same time ,it looked as if ,it could have been Gerald ,as she called him  the husband . joyce1938
Exactly joyce!
You are both correct, 'Contradiction No. 3' was not correct, for the very reason you give.

I have taken the opportunity to go back to my original post >> https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10076-yes-or-no-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-madeleine-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place

...and substitute another contradiction. I hope I am not wrong about that:

CONTRADICTION 3: Although Dr Payne and Kate McCann both claim that Payne visited the McCanns' apartment some time between 6.30pm and 7.00pm on 3rd May, Dr Payne's wife Fiona makes no mention of this in either of her two statements to the police, even though she claims she was watching her husband play tennis throughout this time.

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 09.02.16 16:52

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:N
Number 3 ,I think was never certified what mrs payne meant ,she did not say her husband  arrived at the same time ,it looked as if ,it could have been Gerald ,as she called him  the husband . joyce1938
Exactly joyce!
You are both correct, 'Contradiction No. 3' was not correct, for the very reason you give.

I have taken the opportunity to go back to my original post >> https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10076-yes-or-no-did-dr-david-payne-visit-dr-kate-mccann-on-the-evening-madeleine-was-reported-missing-20-contradictions-which-suggest-that-this-visit-never-took-place

...and substitute another contradiction. I hope I am not wrong about that:

CONTRADICTION 3: Although Dr Payne and Kate McCann both claim that Payne visited the McCanns' apartment some time between 6.30pm and 7.00pm on 3rd May, Dr Payne's wife Fiona makes no mention of this in either of her two statements to the police, even though she claims she was watching her husband play tennis throughout this time.

Fiona says here that she left David playing tennis, whilst her mum and her went off to bath the kids, and that he had allegedly popped in on Kate before the tennis and saw the kids in their pj's.  She cannot confirm Dave's visit..... "and the rest is what he told me" and she assumes it's between 6 and 6:30  .....so it's actually hearsay....


“Erm, I can up to a point, yeah. He was, as I say, he left, as I see it, around six, erm, and then I wouldn’t have seen him again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn’t sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that’s where he was. And then the rest is what he’s told me, erm, again, I couldn’t tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past”.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Doug D on 09.02.16 17:17

Verdi (12.55):
‘Didn't they say they saw her running and waved?’ 
 
The picures posted by Pamalam are described as ‘CCTV pictures captur(ing) the 'Tapas Seven' at the Paraiso beach restaurant, in Praia da Luz, on 03 May 2007, between 17:31 and 18:36’.
 
Bewk p.66
‘Gerry and I had booked an hour long couples’ tennis lesson……at three-thirty and as the courts were unoccupied , we decided to have a knock-up for half an hour first. Near the end of our lesson…………(so about 4.20?)….another guest appeared and he and Gerry decided to have a game together……..
..I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting…………
…I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by……..
I had finished my run by five-thirty at the Tapas area’
 
From the initial statements:
 
Jane Tanner:
'At about 15h45 she went to the beach with Rachael, Dianne, Fiona, L*** and S****** Payne, taking her daughter E**e along.
 
Around 17h15 she saw Kate Healy pass the beach (7) "jogging", she having waved.'
 
Fiona Payne:
'they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00.'
 
Diane Webster:
'she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 15h45 and left at around 18h15'


 
So they all say beach at about 15.45 and JT is the only one who mentions KM jogging past at about 17.15 (which is hardly ‘only just arrived’).
Shouldn’t have been too difficult for the PJ to corroborate this time on the rest of the CCTV film, which we don’t have.
 
On these stills we also get ‘MUX 4’, top left hand side, (Mix 4). I wonder whether that means there were at least another three CCTV cameras at the Paraiso?

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McCanns apt & hire car


Blood and cadaver alerts
dismissed by UK Government


Retired DCI Gonçalo Amaral: "The English can always present the conclusions to which they themselves arrived in 2007. Because they know, they have the evidence of what happened - they don't need to investigate anything. All this is now a mere 'show off'."

Retired murder DCI Colin Sutton: "I would also like to make the point that Operation Grange was so restricted from the start as to be destined to fail."

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley made public on national TV that Operation Grange is a complete fraud.

Ex-DCI Andy Redwood had a "revelation moment" on BBC's Crimewatch on 14th October 2013 when he announced that Operation Grange had eliminated the Tanner sighting - which opened up the 'window of opportunity', in accordance with their remit, to allow the fake abduction to happen.

Despite "irrelevant behaviour" from blood and cadaver dogs in the McCann's apartment, on Kate McCann's clothes, and in the car they hired three weeks after Maddie disappeared, Ex-Chief Inspector, Ian Horrocks, said: "The thought that Kate and Gerry McCann had anything to do with the death of their daughter is frankly preposterous."

Gerry McCann called for example to be made of 'trolls'. SKY News reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda Leyland on 2 October 2014. She was then found dead in a Leicester hotel room. Brenda paid the price. She paid with her life.

Ex-Deputy Chief Constable, Jim Gamble QPM, congratulated SKY reporter, Martin Brunt, on twitter for doorstepping Brenda Leyland on behalf of Gerry McCann.

Prime Minister Theresa May introduces Prime Suspect Kate McCann to Royalty: The Duchess of Gloucester.

Good Cop Down: The reality of being a police whistleblower
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