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When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.02.16 8:40

@worriedmum wrote:I still have a problem with the idea of hearing a patio door opening ABOVE the noise of a child crying frantically. I do wonder if Mrs Fenn heard it after the crying stopped...as someone was leaving?

@ worriedmum    Both you and @ pennylane are indulging in speculation about what happened on the Tuesday night.

You base this on believing Mrs Fenn's statement.

Particularly in this case, I would suggest that great care must be taken in taking ANYTHING as fact. All statements must be weighed as to whether they are truthful or not, and whether they are spoken by people who are manifestly telling the truth. Or not.  

In the case of Mrs Fenn, I would suggest that there are a whole series of 'red flags' which mean we cannot place any reliance on what she says.

I've been over this a few times on the forum, but here's a reminder of just some of the problems with her statement:

1. There is not a shred of evidence that she reported the alleged 'crying incident' before she made her statement on 20 August

2. When she did make her statement, 111 days after Madeleine was reported missing, she only did so after a co-ordinated campaign of articles in the British mainstream press (on 18 August) which miraculously predicted exactly what she was going to say in her statement   

3. Any claim that a person heard a child crying and sobbing continuously for 75 minutes must be treated with caution 

4. Her statement was accompanied by dramatic and improbable stories of an attempted burglary at her flat (which again there is no evidence she reported at the time, and which seemed to vary hugely every time they were told

5. She clumsily tried to say in her statement that she had the powers to distinguish between the cries of an infant 'two years or under' and one 'over two years'

6. Two days after making her statement, she told reporters that what she had said was 'rubbish'

7. And she advised the journalists: 'Ignore it"

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 05.02.16 14:41

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:I still have a problem with the idea of hearing a patio door opening ABOVE the noise of a child crying frantically. I do wonder if Mrs Fenn heard it after the crying stopped...as someone was leaving?

@ worriedmum    Both you and @ pennylane are indulging in speculation about what happened on the Tuesday night.

You base this on believing Mrs Fenn's statement.

Particularly in this case, I would suggest that great care must be taken in taking ANYTHING as fact. All statements must be weighed as to whether they are truthful or not, and whether they are spoken by people who are manifestly telling the truth. Or not.  

In the case of Mrs Fenn, I would suggest that there are a whole series of 'red flags' which mean we cannot place any reliance on what she says.

I've been over this a few times on the forum, but here's a reminder of just some of the problems with her statement:

1. There is not a shred of evidence that she reported the alleged 'crying incident' before she made her statement on 20 August

2. When she did make her statement, 111 days after Madeleine was reported missing, she only did so after a co-ordinated campaign of articles in the British mainstream press (on 18 August) which miraculously predicted exactly what she was going to say in her statement   

3. Any claim that a person heard a child crying and sobbing continuously for 75 minutes must be treated with caution 

4. Her statement was accompanied by dramatic and improbable stories of an attempted burglary at her flat (which again there is no evidence she reported at the time, and which seemed to vary hugely every time they were told

5. She clumsily tried to say in her statement that she had the powers to distinguish between the cries of an infant 'two years or under' and one 'over two years'

6. Two days after making her statement, she told reporters that what she had said was 'rubbish'

7. And she advised the journalists: 'Ignore it"
Hi Tony,

I have read your reasons for doubting Mrs Fenn, and rather than argue points that cannot be proven, I would rather just say I don't agree with you.  Sorry! sad Just because you cannot find evidence of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  As I have said many times, absence of proof is not proof of absence.  Also, I can remember way back, there being reports of a mole in the PJ who was leaking information. There can be many different explanations for things.

Police often make an appointment for witnesses to make their statements officially.  This does not mean that the official statement is the first time a witness has spoken to the police about an incident.

You say she 'clumsily said she heard a 3 year old,' but I don't find that a clumsy thing to say. 


If I was hounded by reporters, I might be inclined to say 'it's all rubbish,' please leave me alone too.  Journalists do print a lot of rubbish that often cannot be corroborated. Kate McCann has done everything in her power to discredit Mrs Fenn, and (imo) Mitchell will be doing his part in completing that aim.  Perhaps the burglary story has been written in such a way to do just that!

I'm satisfied for myself that Mrs Fenn was disturbed by the crying (imo of Maddie) on the 1st May 2007, and phoned her friend as she claimed.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 05.02.16 14:51

@worriedmum wrote:I still have a problem with the idea of hearing a patio door opening ABOVE the noise of a child crying frantically. I do wonder if Mrs Fenn heard it after the crying stopped...as someone was leaving?

I see what you're saying, however, I do believe when you live above another flat, you become keenly attuned to the noises below.  Also, putting myself in Mrs Fenn's position, I imagine I would be paying particular attention to events as they unfolded that night.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by kaz on 05.02.16 15:04

If Mrs Fenn did hear a child crying as she states there's no proof though that it was Madeleine and I honestly don't believe that she  would be able to differentiate between a three and two year old child's  cries. So even if she did hear something it's not actual proof that Madeleine was still alive at this point. The other bit I find hard to swallow is why didn't the crying child wake the others up ? I know sedation has been cited as a possible reason but why sedate two of the children and not three? If it was Madeleine crying that night for over an hour I can only presume she was the only child in that apartment . The twins had to be somewhere else but of course this makes no sense whatsoever.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 05.02.16 15:38

@kaz wrote:If Mrs Fenn did hear a child crying as she states there's no proof though that it was Madeleine and I honestly don't believe that she  would be able to differentiate between a three and two year old child's  cries. So even if she did hear something it's not actual proof that Madeleine was still alive at this point. The other bit I find hard to swallow is why didn't the crying child wake the others up ? I know sedation has been cited as a possible reason but why sedate two of the children and not three? If it was Madeleine crying that night for over an hour I can only presume she was the only child in that apartment . The twins had to be somewhere else but of course this makes no sense whatsoever.
As I said above, you become keenly attuned when you live in a flat.  Perhaps Mrs Fenn had already noted the different sounds below? Maddie was a notoriously poor sleeper, so perhaps she woke through the sedation and they altered it after that, on 2nd and 3rd?

I personally think Maddie was still alive on 3rd, and went to the creche and to the beach as claimed.  Others think differently I realise. I fear we will never know.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Columbo on 05.02.16 22:12

@pennylane wrote:
I personally think Maddie was still alive on 3rd, and went to the creche and to the beach as claimed.  Others think differently I realise. I fear we will never know.
We're on the same hymn sheet there, Pennylane.

I do think the creche records may have been altered but not necessarily directly by someone involved in Madeleine's disappearance. I will try and explain.

Record keeping at the creche facilities may not have been done very well. People can get careless and lackadaisical about that sort of thing, particularly if nothing happens over a long time and no one carries out inspections. Suddenly, something *has* happened. A child is missing, not from the creche, but as a staff member you know the creche records will be checked and you know they're not in good order. Wouldn't there be temptation to try and get them looking right before they're checked?

Just an idea and just my "tuppence worth".
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 06.02.16 20:53

@Columbo wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
I personally think Maddie was still alive on 3rd, and went to the creche and to the beach as claimed.  Others think differently I realise. I fear we will never know.
We're on the same hymn sheet there, Pennylane.

I do think the creche records may have been altered but not necessarily directly by someone involved in Madeleine's disappearance. I will try and explain.

Record keeping at the creche facilities may not have been done very well. People can get careless and lackadaisical about that sort of thing, particularly if nothing happens over a long time and no one carries out inspections. Suddenly, something *has* happened. A child is missing, not from the creche, but as a staff member you know the creche records will be checked and you know they're not in good order. Wouldn't there be temptation to try and get them looking right before they're checked?

Just an idea and just my "tuppence worth".
I agree, people can be very complacent with such things, and under the circumstances there may be a temptation to fill in some blanks.  At the care home where my mother resides, once visitors are inside the front door, only some sign the log-in and log out sheets, but many just walk right by them.  I've never once seen the receptionist monitor anyone.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by kaz on 07.02.16 9:57

@pennylane wrote:
@Columbo wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
I personally think Maddie was still alive on 3rd, and went to the creche and to the beach as claimed.  Others think differently I realise. I fear we will never know.
We're on the same hymn sheet there, Pennylane.

I do think the creche records may have been altered but not necessarily directly by someone involved in Madeleine's disappearance. I will try and explain.

Record keeping at the creche facilities may not have been done very well. People can get careless and lackadaisical about that sort of thing, particularly if nothing happens over a long time and no one carries out inspections. Suddenly, something *has* happened. A child is missing, not from the creche, but as a staff member you know the creche records will be checked and you know they're not in good order. Wouldn't there be temptation to try and get them looking right before they're checked?

Just an idea and just my "tuppence worth".
I agree, people can be very complacent with such things, and under the circumstances there may be a temptation to fill in some blanks.  At the care home where my mother resides, once visitors are inside the front door, only some sign the log-in and log out sheets, but many just walk right by them.  I've never once seen the receptionist monitor anyone.
But then  no one is going to walk away with someone else's old dear , are they?

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 07.02.16 14:13

@kaz wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@Columbo wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
I personally think Maddie was still alive on 3rd, and went to the creche and to the beach as claimed.  Others think differently I realise. I fear we will never know.
We're on the same hymn sheet there, Pennylane.

I do think the creche records may have been altered but not necessarily directly by someone involved in Madeleine's disappearance. I will try and explain.

Record keeping at the creche facilities may not have been done very well. People can get careless and lackadaisical about that sort of thing, particularly if nothing happens over a long time and no one carries out inspections. Suddenly, something *has* happened. A child is missing, not from the creche, but as a staff member you know the creche records will be checked and you know they're not in good order. Wouldn't there be temptation to try and get them looking right before they're checked?

Just an idea and just my "tuppence worth".
I agree, people can be very complacent with such things, and under the circumstances there may be a temptation to fill in some blanks.  At the care home where my mother resides, once visitors are inside the front door, only some sign the log-in and log out sheets, but many just walk right by them.  I've never once seen the receptionist monitor anyone.
But then  no one is going to walk away with someone else's old dear , are they?
Probably not (lol), kaz. 

Seriously though people can escape care homes, one resident from the extreme mental area nearly exited when my husband and I opened the door to leave.  She was very quick and came from nowhere, and we probably wouldn't have even noticed her as she was fully dressed and our thoughts were elsewhere.  The carers caught her in the nick of time and had to coax her back inside as she was adamant she wanted to go home (very sad). Without meticulous records there's all kinds of potential problems that can arise, not to mention if there was a fire etc. Just saying...............

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by kaz on 07.02.16 16:13

Totally agree Pennylane.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by whodunit on 07.02.16 19:54

The child didn't go missing from Creche, she went missing from her apartment.
This being the case, why would a creche worker take it upon themselves to try and get the records 'looking right'? If a parent of a missing child neglected to sign their child in and out of creche the week of the abduction that is the parent's problem, not the creche workers. Falsifying creche records did one thing and one thing only: made it look like Madeleine had attended creche that week when she may not have. Why would a disinterested creche worker care? A worker looking at the records without Madeleine's name on them would have to assume she hadn't attended creche that week. She would at least ask herself: What if Maddie hadn't attended? If then this hypothetical creche worker makes the records 'look right' by inserting her into the sign in sheets, then she is knowingly putting herself on the line by perverting the course of justice. Why would a lowly creche worker do that for people she supposedly didn't even know?
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.02.16 21:16

@whodunit wrote:...why would a creche worker take it upon themselves to try and get the records 'looking right'? Why would a disinterested creche worker care? If... this hypothetical creche worker makes the records 'look right' by inserting her into the sign-in sheets, then she is knowingly putting herself on the line by perverting the course of justice. Why would a lowly creche worker do that for people she supposedly didn't even know?
To be frank, we are talking about Catriona Baker, Madeleine's crèche nanny.

Was she 'disinterested'? Someone who 'supposedly didn't even know' the McCanns?



I believe it was substantiated that she had been a Facebook Friend of Chloe Corner, daughter of Madeleine's godfatherm,at least a year before May 2007.

I believe Jon Corner was on record in 2007 as saying he'd 'been to Praia da Luz' many times before. Quite possibly with his daughter and the rest of his family. 

Moreover, Cat Baker's return to Rothley for a stay with the McCanns in November 2007 was widely reported, with a cameraman there to record the happy reunion:



May be Cat Baker was not a 'disinterested' person?

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 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by whodunit on 07.02.16 21:21

@Tony Bennett   "May be Cat Baker was not a 'disinterested' person?"

Yes, that's kind of my point. Responding to the conversation above, it seems ridiculous to me that a 'disinterested' creche worker would tamper with the records merely so they 'look right', especially as such tampering could constitute a perversion of justice.  There had to be some kind of agenda afoot as a motivator. And if it was necessary to insert Madeleine into the record that means either the Mcs never bothered to sign in or out--which seems laughable--or she was never there in the first place.
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 07.02.16 22:42

I for one believe Maddie was alive on 3rd and was indeed at the creche as claimed. The point I was making was the creche records were probably sloppy and unsupervised, and those involved not at all diligent.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 07.02.16 22:48

Then there was Amy Tierney, head of the baby and mini club in May 2007 - the same mini club that Madeleine allegedly attended during the week of the holiday.

The same Amy Tierney that dabbled in printing off holiday photographs, ostensibly from the camera equipment owned by the parents McCann.  The printer that quickly disappeared en-route for France in the custody of her boyfriend !?!

The same Amy Tierney that was exposed on twitter (under an assumed name) as an avid particularly vicious McCann supporter, I believe.

I'll gloss over Charlotte Pennington who evidently witnessed a man suspiciously loading a bundle onto a boat in the dark at the PdL harbour on the night of the 3rd May - I think.

ETA:  The Charlotte Pennington who just happened to be on the same flight out to Portugal on 28 April 2007, as some of the Tapas group.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 07.02.16 23:28

Lest they forget - the McCanns considered Catriona Baker to be such an important 'witness' that she was included by them on the list for interviews rogatory - held in April 2008.  After her private visit to the Rothley household in November of the previous year, around the same time as the well documented Rothley Hotel 'meeting' took place.

She worked in the creche, Madeleine allegedly disappeared from apartment 5a.  If Ms Baker was not previously acquainted with the McCanns and/or one or more of their friends, what exactly was she supposed to be witness to?  Not a character witness clearly if she was not known to the McCanns and not to Madeleine's disappearance per se as she was not looking after Madeleine on the night of 3rd May - so again I ask, how could she be an important key witness? 

Nothing suspicious here.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by whodunit on 07.02.16 23:42

@pennylane wrote:I for one believe Maddie was alive on 3rd and was indeed at the creche as claimed. The point I was making was the creche records were probably sloppy and unsupervised, and those involved not at all diligent.

The impression I was getting from the conversation above is that you and others do not think it is suspicious that  creche records appear to have been tampered with. Saying it must be because the records are sloppy and unsupervised and therefore must have been 'set to rights' by workers who were embarrassed by their lack of diligence is ignoring the incredibly suspicious nature of the act of inserting a child who is missing into the sign in sheets. Investigators and researchers alike cannot afford to wave away tampering with important documentation, nor do the transgressors, whoever they are, deserve the benefit of the doubt when there is a missing child.
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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by pennylane on 07.02.16 23:43

@Verdi wrote:Lest they forget - the McCanns considered Catriona Baker to be such an important 'witness' that she was included by them on the list for interviews rogatory - held in April 2008.  After her private visit to the Rothley household in November of the previous year, around the same time as the well documented Rothley Hotel 'meeting' took place.

She worked in the creche, Madeleine allegedly disappeared from apartment 5a.  If Ms Baker was not previously acquainted with the McCanns and/or one or more of their friends, what exactly was she supposed to be witness to?  Not a character witness clearly if she was not known to the McCanns and not to Madeleine's disappearance per se as she was not looking after Madeleine on the night of 3rd May - so again I ask, how could she be an important key witness? 

Nothing suspicious here.
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 

That headline was purely pink spin.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 0:18

@pennylane wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Lest they forget - the McCanns considered Catriona Baker to be such an important 'witness' that she was included by them on the list for interviews rogatory - held in April 2008.  After her private visit to the Rothley household in November of the previous year, around the same time as the well documented Rothley Hotel 'meeting' took place.

She worked in the creche, Madeleine allegedly disappeared from apartment 5a.  If Ms Baker was not previously acquainted with the McCanns and/or one or more of their friends, what exactly was she supposed to be witness to?  Not a character witness clearly if she was not known to the McCanns and not to Madeleine's disappearance per se as she was not looking after Madeleine on the night of 3rd May - so again I ask, how could she be an important key witness? 

Nothing suspicious here.
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 

That headline was purely pink spin.
I totally agree that Catriona Bakers was not an important witness nor a witness of any description - that is precisely my point.

I disagree with your comment about Clarence Mitchell.  Firstly I didn't mention, nor am I aware of any headline relative to the subject.  What can't be denied is the fact that the McCanns named Ms Baker to be re-interviewed as part of the rogatory procedure that took place in April 2008 because they considered her to be an important key witness.

ETA:  Just to clarify.  I realize that all the creche workers were interviewed by the PJ as part of the investigation, along with all other Ocean Club employees so yes, she was a required witness to Madeleine's attendance at the creche and her general disposition but that does not explain why the McCanns thought she should be re-interviewed the following year.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.02.16 0:42

@Verdi wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
Catriona Baker was not "an important witness" as she did not see Maddie being abducted, nor the alleged abductor, and she wasn't with Kate or Gerry McCann at the time of the alleged abduction, so didn't give either of them an alibi either. 
I totally agree that Catriona Baker was not an important witness nor a witness of any description
I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.

And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm.

It's clear that Goncalo Amaral did not believe the whole David Payne-Kate McCann dance about THAT visit at 6.30pm by Payne to G5A, was it 30 seconds or several minutes?, did he enter the apartment or not?, was Kate dressed only in a towel? etc. etc. 

But he DID believe Cat Baker's account of the 'high tea' - and on that shaky foundation, he concluded that Madeleine was alive at 6pm.

Hideho did a good article on all the high tea discrepancies back in 2010:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/HiDeHo-Posts/Catriona-and-Creche-Inconsistencies-1-802393.html

And Cat Baker's evidence has convinced a good many others apart from Amaral: Pat Brown, Johanna Renstein, Textusa and our own pennylane to name but a few

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 1:03

To continue - snipped..

11-Processo Vol 11(cont'd) Pages 3030-3034

GERALD PATRICK MCCANN and KATE MARIE HEALY, better identified in the documents referenced above, approach, very respectfully, to set forth and request, Sir, the following:

1 - Since the applicants stopped being considered witnesses, moving to suspects of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, witnesses central to the discovery of truth were not questioned, or re-questioned.

2 - With the recent investigations, witness interviews and interrogations of the applicants, new questions were raised and doubts aroused, broadening, in this way, the object of the investigation, as well as matters of fact considered relevant to the investigations.

3 - Indeed, the Investigation departed from confining itself to the disappearance of the minor, proceeding to embrace other matters, allegedly connected with her.

4 - It is therefore essential to hear these witnesses who can explain facts now very relevant, such as the way the couple treated their children, their personality and routine and, even, the reactions manifested by them after the disappearance and the consequent psychological and emotional state.


5 - So, and because it is believed essential and indispensable for the establishment of the facts and consequent discovery of the truth, they come to request the hearing of the following groups of witnesses, all present and with direct knowledge of the facts:

Group 2 (independent customers and employees of the Ocean Club who saw the behavior of Kate and Gerry on the day of the disappearance):
Dan Smith, with address at ...> (Ocean Club, c / o Mark Warner)
Steve Carpenter, with address at ...> (Ware, Herts) (0,781,577 ####)
Carolyn Carpenter, with address at ...> (Ware, Herts)
Jeremy Wilkins, with address at ...> (London)
Catriona Baker, with address at ...> (Surrey) (0,785,823 ####)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MCCANNS-WANTED.htm

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by kaz on 08.02.16 8:27

@whodunit wrote:@Tony Bennett   "May be Cat Baker was not a 'disinterested' person?"

Yes, that's kind of my point. Responding to the conversation above, it seems ridiculous to me that a 'disinterested' creche worker would tamper with the records merely so they 'look right', especially as such tampering could constitute a perversion of justice.  There had to be some kind of agenda afoot as a motivator. And if it was necessary to insert Madeleine into the record that means either the Mcs never bothered to sign in or out--which seems laughable--or she was never there in the first place.
But they never did look quite right did they, disinterested tamperer ( is there such a word? )  or not. ? If you're going to 'tamper' then at least make things look right. Crossings out, a spelling mistake ( possibly ), an incorrect name ( but we're talking Russell here who always seems to have 'Ella' on his mind ) blanks where there should be signatures, dubious timings .......................the list goes on.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.02.16 8:35

@Verdi wrote:5 - So, and because it is believed essential and indispensable for the establishment of the facts and consequent discovery of the truth, they come to request the hearing of the following groups of witnesses, all present and with direct knowledge of the facts:

Group 2 (independent customers and employees of the Ocean Club who saw the behavior of Kate and Gerry on the day of the disappearance):
Dan Smith, with address at ...> (Ocean Club, c / o Mark Warner)
Steve Carpenter, with address at ...> (Ware, Herts) (0,781,577 ####)
Carolyn Carpenter, with address at ...> (Ware, Herts)
Jeremy Wilkins, with address at ...> (London)
Catriona Baker, with address at ...> (Surrey) (0,785,823 ####)
This is interesting from Hernani Carvalho's interview with TV-Mais on 18 November 2008. Here's a transcript from the relevant part of his interview:

HERNANI CARVALHO ON CATRIONA BAKER --- TV-Mais Interview

“Some have doubts about the Ocean Club’s crèche records.

"The doubts increase if we pay attention to the depositions from Maddie’s last nanny – Cat Baker…

"The statements that the nanny gave to the police raise doubts.

"When re-questioned in England, she corrected several statements that she had given in Portugal.

"She was allowed to refresh her memory from her previous statements.

"Cat Baker says she remembers extraordinary details about the [day Madeleine was reported missing], but says she doesn’t remember who picked up Maddie and at what time…

"The Portuguese Police called in calligraphy experts – these experts found discrepancies in then handwritings.

"Just one of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of those doing he form-filling and their signatures in the form.

"The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did no-one notice this?”

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 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Verdi on 08.02.16 12:14

@Tony Bennett:  I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.  And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm

Precisely my point, not a witness to the actual event (Madeleine's disappearance), therefore of no material interest to the investigation and yet - an important key witness for the McCanns defence.  You only need look at the witness statements of the other people named by the McCanns to get a rough idea of what these particular rogatory interviews were all about.

@Tony Bennett:  This is interesting from Hernani Carvalho's interview with TV-Mais on 18 November 2008. Here's a transcript from the relevant part of his interview

I can never understand why certain people (hopefully a minority) dismiss the creche records as insignificant.  I see them as a crucial element when trying to uncover the truth about MBM's fate.

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Re: When did Madeleine McCann really disappear?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.02.16 12:29

@Verdi wrote:@Tony Bennett:  I am going to fundamentally disagree with you both, because IMO Catriona Baker is one of THE most important witness in the case so far.  And that's because, in her statements, she confirms that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' with her Mum and Dad and the twins, in the time zone 5.30pm to 6pm

Precisely my point, not a witness to the actual event (Madeleine's disappearance), therefore of no material interest to the investigation and yet - an important key witness for the McCanns defence.  You only need look at the witness statements of the other people named by the McCanns to get a rough idea of what these particular rogatory interviews were all about.

@Tony Bennett:  This is interesting from Hernani Carvalho's interview with TV-Mais on 18 November 2008. Here's a transcript from the relevant part of his interview

I can never understand why certain people (hopefully a minority) dismiss the creche records as insignificant.  I see them as a crucial element when trying to uncover the truth about MBM's fate.

Yes - an important witness about one vital issue, but irrelevant on another key issue.

One's view of what happened to Madeleine undoubtedly turns on this pivotal point: was she at that 'high tea' 5.30pm to 6.00pm on Thursday 3 May 2007?

That issue deserves the very closest scrutiny we can possibly give it.

Either she was or she wasn't.

We must all carefully make up our minds - which we do by examining all the different statements made about this alleged event.

It is not sufficient to say "We will never know".

We need to reach a decision, based on all the evidence

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 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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