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What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.01.16 15:20

@worriedmum wrote:Tony if Clarence Mitchell fed this story to the press, what was he trying to achieve and why?
In early August, Martin Grime brought his dogs to Praia da Luz. They alerted to cadaver odour or blood in 17 different locations.

Over the next 2 weeks, there was a stream of lurid press headlines, in Portugal and Britain, about:

* blood
* a corpse
* DNA
* death

etc.

Did the 'team' perhaps respond by suddenly finding a witness who could give evidence about:

1. A burglary
2. A suspicious man on the afternoon of 3 May  and
3. Madeleine crying one night? 

The public, on the weekend of 18/19 August, were fed the above front-page stories PLUS an article by Lori Campbell in both the Sunday Mirror and the Independent on Sunday in which the McCanns admitted to leaving the children on their own every night, for up to half-an-hour at a time. All of these stories strongly reinforced the abduction narrative after two weeks of terrible headlines suggesting that Madeleine had died in the apartment and the parents had covered it up.

P.S.       Are you able to answer my question about the 12 issues which suggest that Mrs Fenn may not be a witness of truth?

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by HiDeHo on 25.01.16 16:18

There is NOTHING in the files to suggest a trip to Chaplins was a fact.

The suggestion originally came from a poster named 'Vera' what was given a certain amount of credibility at the time but I would suggest to NOT believe it as fact unless supported by files evidence.

Interesting to keep in mind though...

















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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by NickE on 25.01.16 16:30

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@NickE wrote:
Quoting Kiko:

"I always said Robert Murat's texting at 2200 on 1/5 was directly connected with K McCann's which started 2 mins after Murat's had finished.

Here's another funny thing: Murat pairs of SMS 2200 1/5 separated by: 1 min, 3 mins, 6 mins. KM's at 2216 by 1 min, 3 mins, 7 mins. Connect!" .
Despite all that I've ever said about Robert Murat, I was never aware of this!

Has this ever been brought here before? - I am not aware of it, during the 6 years and 2 months I've been a member.

What are the statistical chances of two people connecting at the same time (apart from 2 minutes, which could just be the time settings on the respective 'phones AND THEN making/receiving three calls within 7 minutes at exactly the same times?

Put this together with Murat's unexplained rush to Praia da Luz early on May 1, and then Gerry McCann's stony-faced, angry refusal to comment on whether he already knew Murat, and surely we have just had one of the most significant posts ever on CMMOM?!

Thank you very much @ NickE for bringing this here, and - despite my never having been persuaded by his 'substitute Maddie' theory - thank you too @ Kiko for his research of these 'phone records.
Here is more from "Kiko´s" excellent research on this subject, sorry if this has been posted already.



-----------------------------------------------------

"The only phone records that seem to be public for this day are for DP who had calls at 0846 and 1550".


----------------------------------------------------------


"PJudiciaria withheld Annex 37. So you know the importance of Kate McCann's texts/calls 1/5 2031-37 and 2216-28. Urgent! "Fala" 

--------------------------------------------------------

"Kate McCann´s had a frenzy of calls on 1/5. Gerry didn't make a single voice call 1 or 2/5. But his 12 voicemails dovetailed neatly, w/out overlap, with incoming calls fm; Amanda,his Ma, Whetstone woman, Rachel and Jane. Each time 1 of them called, GM was waiting for it."

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by NickE on 25.01.16 17:46

@HiDeHo wrote:There is NOTHING in the files to suggest a trip to Chaplins was a fact.

The suggestion originally came from a poster named 'Vera' what was given a certain amount of credibility at the time but I would suggest to NOT believe it as fact unless supported by files evidence.

Interesting to keep in mind though...

















"They also had a babysitting service where a person who normally worked in the creche by day stayed in the apartment and babysat the children"




I really hope that NSY have asked a nanny who later left for another country if she babysat the children in 5A on Sunday evening and was paid "under the table" or maybe the information and receipts were destroyed?


Did someone in the MW staff called Mr Murat on the "forgotten Monday" after the disaster to hurry down to Pdl?


Just thoughts flag









If you know what I mean.

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.01.16 18:55

@NickE wrote:




Did someone in the MW staff call Mr Murat on the ‘forgotten Monday’ after the disaster to hurry down to PdL?
Just thoughts

If you know what I mean.

I think that as a result of this thread, all members and guests here tonight should be getting a very good idea of exactly what you mean.

Come on, let us all wake up and smell that coffee!

This man is/was the Managing Director of Resonate, a subsidiary of one of the world's most powerful PR agencies, Bell Pottinger, which has and still has h massive influence and control over the press and media:

]
Michael Frohlich, Managing Director of RESONATE, subsidiary of BELL POTTINGER

So was fellow Resonate Director, Tricia Moon:

 
Tricia Moon, Fellow Director of RESONATE, subsidiary of BELL POTTINGER

The article clearly informs us (a) that Mark Warner pulled in RESONATE and (b) that they were there in the days before Madeleine was reported missing.

Not only that, but RESONATE was reported as 'liaising with'

* The British consul
* The Portuguese Police
* The Portuguese media and
* The British media.

How very very convenient!  

And how much was it that Lord Bell, owner and manager of Bell Pottinger, said the McCanns paid him for 'keeping the McCanns on the front page for a year'?

£500,000. FIVE - HUNDRED - GRAND. Most of it raised from a willing and generous British public.

NIck E reminded us that Robert Murat was hastily despatched from England to Portugal early on Tuesday 1 May.

The magazine above tells us that Mark Warner sent out RESONATE to do some work at Mark Warner and the Ocean Club - in the days before Madeleine was reported missing - to do some 'generic work'?

Pull the other one!

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by hogwash on 25.01.16 19:04

Resonate were brought in a week before Madeleine disappeared?

Does that mean this was all pre-planned then or was there another reason for them being brought in?
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.01.16 19:16

@hogwash wrote:Resonate were brought in a week before Madeleine disappeared?

Does that mean this was all pre-planned then or was there another reason for them being brought in?
The article doesn't say what date they were brought in. It could have been Monday 30th April or Tuesday 1st May. I do not personally think that this means 'pre-planning'

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Verdi on 25.01.16 22:56

It's interesting to note how Kate McCann's book 'madeleine' pays so much attention to family activities on Tuesday 1st as opposed to the rest of the week.  The trip to the beach, the ice creams, the cold and rain, the stop off at the market stall for Gerald to buy sunglasses, the tennis ball photograph, the broken shutter, the washing machine incident, Russell staying in apartment during dinner period, Madeleine's nocturnal shenanigans, thus - 'some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up.  Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us'.

Amidst all this waffle, she even goes so far as to say..

'You may be wondering not only what relevance all these minute details might have to anything, but also how I can recall them so distinctly and how accurate my recollections can possibly be. The answer is that,  within a couple of days, every single apparently inconsequential thing that happened on that holiday would become vitally important, and Gerry and I would soon be painstakingly trying to extract from our brains every tiny incident, no matter how small, that might have been significant.


Armed with notebook, pen and dated photographs, I would be challenging myself to piece together as comprehensive an outline of the sequence of events that I could.'
----------

Funny that -   every single apparently inconsequential thing that happened on that holiday that would become vitally important, all seemed to happen on the Tuesday.  They were also 'lucky enough' to have a cleaner on Monday and Wednesday..

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Verdi on 25.01.16 23:14

@worriedmum wrote:I don't agree that Mrs Fenn is not a reliable witness. Some of what she is reported to have said is from newspapers-not necessarily verbatim.

As for coming forward, I think that a lot of people don't want to get involved /trust that the police have got it sorted.
Your user name tells me you are a caring responsible parent.  If you heard a child crying for that length of time with no sign of any movement or noise that would indicate the presence of an adult, would you just ignore it?  At that stage she didn't need to call the police but a quick call to the Ocean Club reception wouldn't be a problem surely?

The whole idea of a child listening service provided in some Warner holiday resorts, as I understand, is for a parent or guardian to be notified if a child appears to be awake - crying for example.  On the surface nothing sinister so no need to be concerned about getting involved, just doing a good deed.

As for her witness statement, if Madeleine had been abducted which was the theory widely claimed, Mrs Fenn could have been a vital witness.  As it happened she didn't see anything, didn't hear anything or didn't say anything so I can't see why she should be reluctant to speak out - *before 20th August* 

I do however wonder why she wasn't interviewed by the PJ within hours of Madeleine's disappearance.  They did carry out a door to door search - if Mrs Fenn was in situ it seems rather odd that she wasn't formally, or even informally, interviewed.  Strategically placed as she apparently was.

ETA: *

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.01.16 23:57

@Verdi wrote:
I do however wonder why she wasn't interviewed by the PJ within hours of Madeleine's disappearance.  They did carry out a door to door search - if Mrs Fenn was in situ it seems rather odd that she wasn't formally, or even informally, interviewed.  Strategically placed as she apparently was.

I think that you answered your own question when you wrote:  "They did carry out a door to door search..."

How many statements were taken from those whose doors were knocked on?

Probably none at all. 

And that's because, in all probability, they had no useful information to give.

We can take an educated guess at what Mrs Fenn did tell them when they knocked on her door.

Something like: "No, I never heard anything. About 9.45pm or so I heard some loud conversation below so I leaned over and asked what was the matter. They told me a child was missing and that the police had been informed. I'm afraid that's it, officer, I never heard or saw anything else. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you".

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by worriedmum on 26.01.16 0:18

But do we know if Mrs Fenn thought that the child was alone?

If she thought the child's parents were present, would she interfere? It's a big taboo in our culture...
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Verdi on 26.01.16 13:06

Daily Express - 18th August 2008

BRAVERY:   Mrs Fenn challenged intruder


A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.

Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.

In the weeks before Madeleine disappeared Mrs Fenn scared off an intruder who had apparently let himself into her apartment with a key.

It was one of a series of similar crimes reported to Portuguese police.

In a second development Mrs Fenn's niece reported seeing a man who matched the description of a suspect peering into the McCanns holiday apartment around the time Madeleine went missing.

And she revealed vital details of the movements of Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, and their holiday friends in the run up to the night of May 3 - when Madeleine vanished.

Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her.

Incredibly Mrs Fenn, who lives in the apartment directly above the flat the McCanns were staying in, was never interviewed by Portuguese police, it was claimed yesterday.

It was only when a team of British officers were called in to help carry out a major review of the case that the information was acted on.

Now Mrs Fenn will be formally interviewed for the first time by Portuguese detectives at police headquarters in Portimao on Monday morning.

Her niece, who has not been named, will also give a sworn testimony next week, after she was asked to fly to Portugal from Britain.

The Daily Express can reveal they are among a series of witnesses will be called in to give statements in the light of new evidence which has emerged.

Detectives are preparing to swoop on new suspects after a breakthrough in a major new line of inquiry.

Investigators are now working on the theory Madeleine, four, died inside the holiday apartment where her family were staying.

A police source told The Daily Express: "Next week we will be taking statements from several witnesses.

"We want to clarify details which may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in the light of the facts we have found."

Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.

There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.

The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.

Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window.

She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped.
She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.

Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there.

Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared.

She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends.

Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm.

A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.

The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.







[Images my addition]


Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns' apartment.

Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out.

A friend of Mrs Fenn told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in.

"She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before.

"Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.

"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment.

"She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement.

"Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.

"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom.

"She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window.

"She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door.

"She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.

"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday.

"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns' apartment.

"He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.

"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm.

"She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned.

"She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone and she was watching the news at 10.30pm.


"On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs.

"She looked over the balcony and saw the child's mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying 'We've let her down. We've let her down.'

"All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."

Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence.

Under Portugal's strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation.

But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."

Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.


A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have.

"They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."

Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns' holiday apartment.

The source said friends of Madeleine's parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.

The source said: "It is possible the McCanns friends will be brought in again but not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests.

"The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them.

"The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."

Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns.

The couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead.

Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory.

The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we meet.

"We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."

A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing.

The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal,she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken.

The woman said: "It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from.

"The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry."


(Thanks to mccannfiles.com)

Such a flurry of activity...



ETA:  Sorry, can't get rid of all those brackety things.

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by NickE on 26.01.16 13:33

@Tony

I think there is no doubt that "Tannerman's" description was based on Krokowski,but where and when did Tanner or someone else got the idea?
Did she/they see him somewhere?
Or did someone else (MW staff? Murat connection?) Saw/met him somewhere and came up with the idea?

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.01.16 14:13

Tony, I've just watched the video...


and what I heard despite the traffic noise was  that she hadn't spoken to jounalists and it was all rubbish. ..apparently what the papers had written. She was obviously fed up with people pestering her.
She didn't say that she didn't hear the crying.

I noticed the video was posted by Brenda Ryan. IMO I think she had been threatened to change her views. I was on 3A for many years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.01.16 14:20

@Tony Bennett wrote:...snipped...

How many statements were taken from those whose doors were knocked on?

Probably none at all. 

And that's because, in all probability, they had no useful information to give.

We can take an educated guess at what Mrs Fenn did tell them when they knocked on her door.

Something like: "No, I never heard anything. About 9.45pm or so I heard some loud conversation below so I leaned over and asked what was the matter. They told me a child was missing and that the police had been informed. I'm afraid that's it, officer, I never heard or saw anything else. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you".

Tony, I really don't think you should be making "educated guesses"" like that. You are a respected Researcher, not a cheap guesser.

There are few facts in this case but let us stick to those.
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.01.16 14:42

@whatsupdoc wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:...snipped...

How many statements were taken from those whose doors were knocked on?

Probably none at all. 

And that's because, in all probability, they had no useful information to give.

We can take an educated guess at what Mrs Fenn did tell them when they knocked on her door.

Something like: "No, I never heard anything. About 9.45pm or so I heard some loud conversation below so I leaned over and asked what was the matter. They told me a child was missing and that the police had been informed. I'm afraid that's it, officer, I never heard or saw anything else. Sorry I cannot be of more help to you".

Tony, I really don't think you should be making "educated guesses" like that. You are a respected researcher, not a cheap guesser.

There are few facts in this case but let us stick to those.
OK then, are you happy with this?

1. The PJ say that they knocked on all the doors.

2. Clearly they therefore knocked at Mrs Fenn's.

3. We simply do not know what she told them.

4. We do not know if she actually made a statement in writing to the PJ but there is no evidence that she did.

5. There is absolutely no evidence that she ever mentioned the 'crying incident' at this time

6. There is absolutely no evidence that she mentioned the 'crying incident' to anyone before she made her statement on 20 August

7. (Except that (a) she claims to have spoken to Mrs Glyn about it on 3 May and (b) she must have mentioned this to whoever 'leaked' what she was going to say to several British newspapers on Saturday 18 August

8. The most likely source for all the stories in the mainstream press on 18 August is Clarence Mitchell, and

9. For the British press to have carried all those stories about what Mrs Fenn was going to say, the provider of those stories (assumed to be Clarence Mitchell) must EITHER have spoken to Mrs Fenn herself OR spoken to those who were in contact with Mrs Fenn.


I repeat my assertion that on the evidence we have, Mrs Fenn could not, when she was knocked on by the police on 3 or 4 May, have had any useful information to give them, either about an abductor, or about an alleged 'crying incident'

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by whatsupdoc on 26.01.16 17:05

Thanks for replying, Tony.

1)  OK
2)We assume they did knock on Mrs. Fenn's door.
3)Did she answer the door? Did she speak to the officer?
4)We do not know if she actually made a statement in writing to the PJ
5)There is absolutely no evidence that she ever mentioned the 'crying incident' at this time... BUT she may have spoken about it...we don't know.
6)We don't know.
7)(Except that (a) she claims to have spoken to Mrs Glyn about it on 3 May.  OK
8)The most likely source for all the stories in the mainstream press on 18 August is Clarence Mitchell, ,quote.   HENCE my saying who believes anything in the Newspapers.The sound on the video was drowned out by traffic noise but I understood Mrs. Fenn to have said she hadn't spoken to a journalist.
9)Can't assume anything when the Press are involved.


I wouldn't tell the Press anything. They write what they want.Clarence was running the show.

I remember hearing about Vera very early on and what stuck in my mind was when she said "When you hear the truth your jaw will hit the ground" ....not your jaw will drop.

There is a lot we don't know and all the lies told by the McCanns was to muddy the water even more.
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by sar on 26.01.16 17:19

@whatsupdoc wrote:Thanks for replying, Tony.

1)  OK
2)We assume they did knock on Mrs. Fenn's door.
3)Did she answer the door? Did she speak to the officer?
4)We do not know if she actually made a statement in writing to the PJ
5)There is absolutely no evidence that she ever mentioned the 'crying incident' at this time... BUT she may have spoken about it...we don't know.
6)We don't know.
7)(Except that (a) she claims to have spoken to Mrs Glyn about it on 3 May.  OK
8)The most likely source for all the stories in the mainstream press on 18 August is Clarence Mitchell, ,quote.   HENCE my saying who believes anything in the Newspapers.The sound on the video was drowned out by traffic noise but I understood Mrs. Fenn to have said she hadn't spoken to a journalist.
9)Can't assume anything when the Press are involved.


I wouldn't tell the Press anything. They write what they want.Clarence was running the show.

I remember hearing about Vera very early on and what stuck in my mind was when she said "When you hear the truth your jaw will hit the ground" ....not your jaw will drop.

There is a lot we don't know and all the lies told by the McCanns was to muddy the water even more.
 sometimes just a slightly weird phrase almost sends a chill down your spine.  Sorry for perhaps not using the quote button properly / over judiciously

"I remember hearing about Vera very early on and what stuck in my mind was when she said "When you hear the truth your jaw will hit the ground" ....not your jaw will drop."


Time after time in this case we hear / see these snippets which allude to something far more sinister than a missing child on a foreign holiday.  Think back to the initial reports you heard about this story, a child missing, abducted from a holiday complex.  Sometimes I feel guilty of almost forgetting the tragedy of the situation as it was first described, I still can't come to terms with the truly horrific feelings I had as I realised things may not be as they seemed.

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A possible scenario

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.01.16 17:40

@NickE wrote:@Tony

I think there is no doubt that 'Tannerman's description was based on Krokowski, but where and when did Tanner or someone else got the idea?
Did she/they see him somewhere?
Or did someone else (MW staff? Murat connection?) Saw/met him somewhere and came up with the idea?



@ NickE      I have previously answered this question at length on the forum, but am very pleased to do so again, and in some details, as it’s a very important question. And while I have the floor [English expression meaning ‘While I am speaking’] may I thank you for your many factual contributions to the forum, some of which have been most helpful. 
 

My thesis is quite well known by now, I think, namely: 

Tannerman is based on Krokowski

Sagresman is based on Krokowski, and

Smithman is based on Krokowski.

 

Therefore, respectively, Jane Tanner, Nuno Lourenco and Martin Smith were using a ‘template’ description based on an actual person, namely Wojchiech Krokowski. I will leave ‘Smithman’ out of this and just focus on Tannerman and Sagresman. 

Let’s take Nuno Lourenco’s description of Sagresman first: 

1 He first told the PJ early on Saturday 5 May about his alleged two encounters the previous Sunday (29 April) with a paedophile kidnapper at Sagres.

2 The story of the alleged kidnapping was implausible in the extreme. The poster ‘Textusa’ helped to expose Lourenco’s fabrication with a well-researched article based on an actual visit she made to Sagres.

3 When he spoke to the PJ, Lourenco already had on him an item that could definitely identify Krokowski – a photograph of the car he hired that week.

4 He must have had that photograph well before making his call to the PJ on 5 May.

5 He could have taken that photograph any time that week.

6 If the story about Sagresman is a fabrication, then the photograph of Krokowski’s car must have been taken as part of a planned attempt to deceive the Portuguese Police.

 

Now the facts about Jane Tanner’s Tannerman:    

1 She gave her description of the man carrying a child she said she saw to the PJ during Friday 4 May

2 She had already - during the evening of 3 May - given Russell O’Brien details of this alleged ‘sighting’ for him to write down, on the ripped-off cover of Madeleine’s Activity Sticker Book, the claim that she had seen a man carrying a child at about 9.15pm

3 If that was a fabrication, then this must have been planned some time earlier. Maybe hours earlier. Or days earlier.

4 To quote you, and I agree:  I think there is no doubt that ‘Tannerman's description was based on Krokowski”. 

What effect did the Sagresman and Tannerman ‘sightings’ have on the PJ? 

It caused Goncalo Amaral and his men to waste valuable time, on Day 2 of the investigation, contacting (a) INTERPOL (b) the German Police and (c) the Polish police, asking them to search the plane on landing at Berlin and search the Krokowskis’ flat in Warsaw.

It is possible that this was one of the reasons behind a plan to offer the PJ two strikingly similar descriptions. It certainly worked. 

A possible scenario 

You asked: “”Where and when did Tanner or someone else get the idea [of framing Krokowski]? Did she/they see him somewhere? Or did someone else (MW staff? Murat connection?) see/meet him somewhere and come up with the idea?” 

1 Let us suppose first of all that something serious may have happened to Madeleine on Sunday night or early Monday.

2 Let us suppose a plan was put in place to create a hoax abduction.

Robert Murat is sent for during Monday 30 April.

3 He hurriedly books a flight, leaving home at about 5.00am on Tuesday 1 May.

4 We know that when he was first interviewed by the PJ on 15 May and made an arguido, he comprehensively lied about what he did on 1, 2 and 3 May, making at least 17 separate false claims about his movements over those three days.

5 What follows is no more than a possible scenario. I emphasise that it is not a fully developed thesis, it is only one of a number of possibilities.

6 Assume Murat knows the McCanns already. Or that both know a ‘go-between’.

7 Assume that a group is set up to plan a hoax abduction.

8 They need a plausible abductor.



9 One of the group knows Krokowski and knows that he has rented a car.

Krokowski’s car is photographed.

10 The group get Lourenco to invent a plausible account of his daughter nearly being kidnaped at Sagres.

11 One of the group gives Jane Tanner a description of Krokowski and asks her to commit it to memory.

12 Everything is then ready for the hoax to unfold at 10pm on Thursday.  Jane Tanner has her description. Lourenco has a description and he has a photograph of Krokowski’s car. Everything is in place to deceive the PJ. 

Additional scenarios 

It is possible that Jane Tanner and Nuno Lourenco both actually met Krokowski, maybe at a planning meeting with Robert Murat. In which case Krokowski might be a willing accomplice. Indeed they could have met in Krokowski’s holiday apartment in the Sol e Mar block.  

Is there any basis for this suggestion? 

Well, consider these facts: 

1 A hair of the same haplotype as Jane Tanner was found in Krokowski’s Sol e Mar apartment

2 A hair of the same haplotype as Robert Murat was also found in Krokowski’s Sol e Mar apartment

3 The Sol e Mar apartments were built by Robert Murat’s father and are owned and maintained by Murat’s aunt and uncle, the Eveleighs, or those closely connected to them

4 Whilst it was claimed that Nuno Lourenco was living in Germany and just on a three-week holiday to Sagres at that time year to see his mother, he has long since moved back to Sagres and may well have been an associate of Murat

5 The person who gave the PJ the most information about Krokowski was the owner/manager of the Burgau Beach Bar, not named in the PJ files, but thought to be either Ralph Eveleigh, or his manager. The Beach Bar was certainly owned by Eveleigh at the time

6 This owner/manager said that the Krokowski’s had meals most days in his beach bar, he was able to direct the PJ to a shop with CCTV where the Krokowskis had bought a CD of Brazilian music, and said that he had chatted to Krokowski about football. 

7 These facts suggest a possible close nexus between Murat, the Krokowskis and Nuno Lourenco.         

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by worriedmum on 26.01.16 20:41

Tony while I can see there are similar characteristics between Tannerman and Sagresman, I do not see any resemblance to the Smith e-fits at all
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.01.16 21:05

@worriedmum wrote:Tony while I can see there are similar characteristics between Tannerman and Sagresman, I do not see any resemblance to the Smith e-fits at all
@ worriedmum                        

OK, we are the same page where the striking similarities between Tannerman and Sagresman are concerned.

I have never said that the Smith 'efits' resemble anything or anyone in this case, except that I think that one of the e-fits looks very much like this man:



It is my case that the Smiths are NOT the source for either e-fit.

For a detailed look at the 17 striking similarities between Tannerman, Sagresman AND Smithman, please tak a look at the OP on the 'SMITHMAN2' thread, here:         
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8297-smithman-2-what-can-account-for-the-17-remarkable-similarities-between-tannerman-and-smithman

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by HiDeHo on 27.01.16 2:32

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@NickE wrote:





I think that as a result of this thread, all members and guests here tonight should be getting a very good idea of exactly what you mean.

Come on, let us all wake up and smell that coffee!

This man is/was the Managing Director of Resonate, a subsidiary of one of the world's most powerful PR agencies, Bell Pottinger, which has and still has h massive influence and control over the press and media:

]
Michael Frohlich, Managing Director of RESONATE, subsidiary of BELL POTTINGER

So was fellow Resonate Director, Tricia Moon:

 
Tricia Moon, Fellow Director of RESONATE, subsidiary of BELL POTTINGER

The article clearly informs us (a) that Mark Warner pulled in RESONATE and (b) that they were there in the days before Madeleine was reported missing.

Not only that, but RESONATE was reported as 'liaising with'

* The British consul
* The Portuguese Police
* The Portuguese media and
* The British media.

How very very convenient!  

And how much was it that Lord Bell, owner and manager of Bell Pottinger, said the McCanns paid him for 'keeping the McCanns on the front page for a year'?

£500,000. FIVE - HUNDRED - GRAND. Most of it raised from a willing and generous British public.

NIck E reminded us that Robert Murat was hastily despatched from England to Portugal early on Tuesday 1 May.

The magazine above tells us that Mark Warner sent out RESONATE to do some work at Mark Warner and the Ocean Club - in the days before Madeleine was reported missing - to do some 'generic work'?

Pull the other one!


Could THIS have been the reason Mark Warner sent out Reonate to do some work at Mark Warner the week prior to Madeleine going missing be something to do with the BBC Whistleblower program that had been investigating undercover at MW Creche in Egypt at the beginning of April 2007. Just before the McCanns holiday.

Look like they may have recognised the need for some damage control?

Title: Mark Warner & BBC Whistleblower Program
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Creche-Records-Timeline/Mark-Warner-BBC-Whistleblower-Program-1-931795.html

Press Releases

Ofsted Whistleblower reveals widespread failings in the care of the under-fives



Category: Factual & Arts TVBBC One 
Date: 05.03.2008 
Printable version




WhistleblowerBBC One's flagship undercover series, will tonight (Wednesday 5 March, 8.00pm) lift the lid on how nurseries are putting children at serious risk by failing to check both the criminal records and references of staff employed to work with very young children – and the failure of Ofsted to police this.

 

In an exclusive interview given to the programme on condition that her identity was protected, a current Ofsted inspector alleges that Ofsted – the official body responsible for inspecting and regulating nurseries and childminders in the UK – is approving childcare facilities that should not be operating.

 

Ofsted inspector: "I am a mother of two young children and many of my colleagues have young children. Between us, I would say we would inspect roughly 700 crèches, nurseries, after-school clubs and childminders and there wasn't more than five that we would take our own children to."

 

Following the tip-off from the Ofsted inspector, BBC undercover reporter Imogen Willcocks began an eight-month undercover investigation, during which she discovered that Ofsted is not only failing to adequately regulate the childcare industry in order to protect pre-school children in nurseries and in the care of childminders, but that political connections could have influenced Ofsted's decisions.

 

The programme uncovers Ofsted documents that indicate that the Just Learning nursery in Cambourne should have been closed following the accidental death of a child in its care and critical inspection reports, but was saved from closure due to concerns about the implications for Michael Fallon MP. Michael Fallon, the Conservative MP for Sevenoaks, was the Managing Director of the nursery at the time and the documents state:

 

"If we cancel this particular setting then there are implications for Michael Fallon, as he would be automatically disqualified."

 

Viewers will be shocked to see how Imogen Willcocks, a 21-year-old undercover BBC journalist with no experience of looking after children and no professional qualifications, is employed to look after young children under the age of five by two nurseries in Britain, and a leading British holiday company. Furthermore, they will see her approved as a registered childminder by Ofsted.

 

Imogen's undercover filming takes place at Just Learning in Cambourne (near Cambridge) and Buttons nursery in west London, as well as a Mark Warner holiday resort in Dahab, Egypt – an upmarket company that markets itself as offering "award-winning childcare".

 

The undercover footage in the programme reveals:



 A failure to make criminal record and reference checks – The companies that featured in the programme all employed Imogen to look after young children without obtaining CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) checks, or speaking to any of her referees.

 

 Adult to child ratios are not met – The required adult tochild ratios were not always met – on several occasions at Buttons nursery, Imogen is seen left in sole charge of up to 13 pre-school children. [size=16]At Mark Warner, an extra child arrives at the crèche but no one knows who she is and, on one occasion at Just Learning, Imogen and another member of staff are left caring for 23 children. This was despite complaints from members of staff concerned about child welfare and safety.[/size]

 

 Health & Safety compromised – The BBC reporter was given no practical training to ensure that she could deal with emergency situations whilst looking after the children. And the health and safety of the children was compromised on a number of occasions – the undercover BBC reporter discovered, for example, potential choking hazards in the sandpit at Just Learning (which she removed and disposed of). At Buttons nursery she found pieces of glass in the garden and witnessed maintenance work, involving power tools, being carried out whilst the children were in the same room. At Mark Warner, the BBC reporter was asked to accompany and supervise young children on a sailing trip without enough safety helmets for all the children, and take young children into the water without any assessment of her swimming ability. Also, at the Mark Warner resort in Egypt, a room listening service designed to check on children every 30 minutes whilst their parents are out, was found to be inappropriate because the staff could only listen at the door – they couldn't see if the children were all right or go into the rooms. Indeed, a Mark Warner nanny told the BBC undercover journalist that before the journalist arrived in April 07, a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool.

 

 No training – No or negligible training was given to the undercover BBC reporter in any of her jobs. This is despite the fact that Mark Warner, for example, told her that she would receive training before starting the job.

 

 Illegal working on tourist visas – Mark Warner employees at the resort were found working illegally on tourist visas because, according to one member of staff, Mark Warner are "too cheap to cough up and pay for [work] visas".

 

 Infrequent inspections – Ofsted fails to make frequent inspections of nurseries – with the Buttons nursery in west London having nearly four-and-a-half years between inspections.

 

 Illegally low pay – BBC undercover journalist Imogen Willcocks earned £100 a week (about £2.50 an hour) whilst at Buttons nursery – well below the national minimum wage. Staff at Buttons nursery are discouraged from discussing their pay – the nursery manager told Imogen: "a couple of months ago, we called people out because they've been discussing wages. That's confidential, you mustn't do that."

 

Imogen's findings go some way towards understanding the Ofsted Whistleblower's comments in the programme:

 

"Ofsted reports are not worth the paper that they're printed on."

 

"Anybody can approach Ofsted, talk a good talk and really become registered [as a childminder]."

 

"I've taken a great risk talking to you but I don't believe, and many of my colleagues don't believe, that we protect children anymore."

 

"Inspectors will go out to undertake an inspection and are literally skimming the surface. We are told consistently and constantly: 'if you go in and you don't see a problem, don't look for one. Get in there, take a quick look and get out'. The No. 1 priority for all inspectors is to meet their targets, because if they don't then they are disciplined. So targets take priority over safeguarding of children."

 

The critical Ofsted report, following the inspection of Just Learning in Cambourne that occurred after 10-month-old Georgia Hollick died accidentally at the nursery in April 2006, found serious problems there. There was no criticism of the nursery at the inquest. Documents obtained by the programme show that Ofsted took into account the consequences the closure of the nursery and disqualification from running it could have on the then Managing Director when considering what action they should take. The Managing Director at the time was Michael Fallon, Conservative MP for Sevenoaks, who remains on the Board of Just Learning.

 

Since filming, the directors of Just Learning have written to parents announcing the closure of their Cambourne nursery following the Ofsted reports and the BBC's investigation, and have admitted that the BBC has made them aware of "a serious breach of recruitment policy last year".

 

Notes to Editors

 

1. BBC undercover reporters Imogen Willcocks and Ashley Kennedy were CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) checked by the BBC prior to their undercover work for the programme but none of the companies that feature in the programme were aware of this.

 

2. BBC undercover reporter Imogen Willcocks worked at:

- Just Learning in Cambourne from 7 to 27 November 2007.

- Buttons nursery in west London from July to August 2007.

Mark Warner resort in Dahab, Egypt between 2 and 14 April 2007.


(SEE MORE AT ABOVE LINK)


http://eyfs.info/forums/topic/12460-bbc-whistleblower-programme/page-2
http://www.foundation-stage.info/forums/index.php?showtopic=12460
As for the Warner holidays set up-would you allow your small child to be transported in a speed boat with complete strangers even if they were wearing a helmet? None of them were strapped in and I was fearful for the little one without the helmet-he/she looked as though they were going to bounce out of the boat at one stage.
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How very very convenient

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.01.16 7:48

@ HideHo      I don't think that the 'BBC Whistleblower' theory helps us to explain why the Managing Director and his Deputy (the top two) of this Bell Pottinger subsidiary went out to this one particular resort in Portugal, during the days before Madeleine was reported missing.

Further, what did Frohlich and Moon do when the story broke late on 3rd May? They simply carried on working over there...

* liaising with the British consult
* liaising with the Portuguese Police
* liaising with the Portuguese media and
* liaising with the British media.

As I think I said before, how very very convenient...

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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by skyrocket on 27.01.16 9:22

The PR Week article has been clipped short. The full piece reads:


Head of issues and crisis management Alex Woolfall is on location in Portugal and reports directly to MD ­David Hopkins.
Mark Warner brought in Resonate on a generic brief a week before three-year-old Madeleine McCann was kidnapped from its Portuguese resort in Praia da Luz. MD Michael Froh­lich then referred the firm to his parent company’s crisis specialist.
Frohlich and Resonate dir­ector Tricia Moon are helping liaise with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese and UK media.


They are working with staff at Mark Warner’s Kensington headquarters.

Read more at http://www.prweek.com/article/656479/mark-warner-hires-bell-pottinger#eMjk9w081YGfe1LV.99

The above doesn't read that Frohlich and Moon were ever in Luz. (Is this reported as fact elsewhere?). More likely that, if genuine, the 'generic' PR campaign described would have been orchestrated from their London base. Bell Pottinger's crisis management man (as opposed to crisis PR), Woolfall, was then sent out after MBM's disappearance. The campaign may have been initiated as a result of the whistleblowing reporting rather than as merely a 'generic brief', as stated.

Resonate (part of Bell Pottinger at that time) advertised 'Crisis PR' as one of its specialities. The bad publicity surrounding the BBC undercover story may have been the motivating 'crisis' but it's clear that circumstances quickly changed. Even if there had been more to Resonate's involvement than simply 'good timing', would the MD appear in Luz before the matter was reported, or at all? (Which he didn't anyway).

However, as in the London bombing and 9/11 incidents, where the presence of emergency services on training sessions has always been highly contentious, the fact that Resonate had apparently just been hired is another of those irritating 'coincidences'.
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Re: What happened in the 12 hrs from 9pm TUESDAY - 9am WED? FOCUS on TUES Night & WED morning..Where was Kate?

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.01.16 9:32

@skyrocket wrote:The PR Week article has been clipped short. The full piece reads:

Frohlich and Resonate dir­ector Tricia Moon are helping liaise with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese and UK media.  [REST SNIPPED]


All of this liaison with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese media...

..all from a couple of desks, telephone, computer and fax machine in an office in Kensington?

Seems very unlikely...

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