Re: Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance

by Draco 28.07.10 20:06

Judge Mental wrote:@ Draco

A body is not necessarily needed as proof, Draco.

The two cases cited above were to simply to show there have been occasions where a person has been wrongly accused and tried, as was the case for Timothy John Evans, and that on other occasions a great many years had to pass before people were finally convicted. Park thought he had got away with the murder of his wife when he was released after his first arrest, yet he was finally re-arrested in 2004 because of an unusual type of knot.in a rope.

Thank you for proving my point.

Okay, recap:
I wrote "This case will only be solved, Madeleine will only get justice, if
a. she's found alive or
b. someone who knows what's happened, comes forward and makes a statement, confesses, leads them to the body.
c. if her body is found with evidence of who's involved, who's hidden the body."

Gordon Park was convicted on circumstantial evidence. Part of the evidence was found when Carol Ann Park's body was found.
But he didn't get charged and convicted at that time. It was only after a former cellmate made a confession to the police about what Gordon told him. After that the police went back and found a rock that linked to Gordon's house.
Gordon talked, someone came forward, they found evidence near the body, that's my b. and c. (Seems there's still some controversy about his guilt or innocence?).

Re the petition, I'm not a dreamer nor a pessimist, I'm a realist. Let's wait and see who's got it right, shall we?

ETA and I really object to a petition of which the person who's started it is using an alias. If he/she is doing a genuine attempt, why not using his/her own name?

by Judge Mental 30.07.10 13:07

Should anybody still not believe in the power of signing petitions, please note how easy it is to amass more than 20.000 signatures within only a short period of time:

Petition to:
scrap the plans to tax phone lines to subsidise other peoples broadband
This petition is now closed, as its deadline has passed.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to scrap the plans to tax phone lines to subsidise other peoples broadband. More details

Submitted by Tony Humphreys – Deadline to sign up by: 27 February 2010 – Signatures: 20,243

More details from petition creator
I request that the Government scraps any plans to add 50p a month tax to phone lines to subsidise further broadband roll out. It is wholly unfair to tax my phone line to pay for someone else's broadband, and it is as simple as that. It is recognised that rural areas do suffer a slower connection and higher costs, but they have fantastic views, clean air and a safer environment - its a choice people have to live in the country - and a decision they take. Please see sense, and stop this poll tax - broadband is not a vital service.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrap50pphonetax/

Government response
The Government confirmed in the Budget that it will not introduce the proposed duty on landlines. Instead, it will drive private sector investment in superfast broadband by making regulatory changes to reduce the cost of roll-out.

We are keen to avoid a digital divide between those who enjoy modern communications and those who – for whatever reason – do not. The Coalition Government is therefore committed to stimulating access to reliable internet broadband across the country through whatever technology is required. We are examining options of how to deliver this.

The recent Budget also confirmed that there are to be three pilot projects that will bring superfast broadband to rural and hard-to-reach areas. These are projects that will not only benefit those living in these areas, but will also provide Government with vital information about how we can best target Government intervention and make next generation broadband viable in even the most challenging areas.

BDUK is also working towards the delivery of universal broadband service at two Megabits per second. This will be funded by a portion of the Digital Switchover underspend within the TV licence fee.

by Judge Mental 30.07.10 15:03

@ Draco

You do not seem to have considered your last post as carefully as you think you have, so one will ignore it for now. However, with regard to the ETA part of your last post: ''ETA and I really object to a petition of which the person who's started it is using an alias. If he/she is doing a genuine attempt, why not using his/her own name?''

If you 'really object', then do not sign it. Is anybody twisting your arm up your back or sticking needles in your eyes?.

How do you know it is somebody using an alias? How does this invalidate their said attempt?

Why should somebody have to use their own name when they are at liberty to use an alias? You are currently using an alias on here. Would you prefer us to ignore you until you tell us your real name and come back with a bank reference and two utility bills? .

by aiyoyo 01.08.10 9:03

The more important point is 2000 valid and verifiable signatures and not who is organising the petition under what name? This is about Madeleine isnt it?

Does it matter if it is tom dick or harry under whichever name is organising the petition, shouldnt it be about the purpose of the petition?

by baconbutty 01.08.10 9:57

Can I be devil's advocate for a moment?

A serious petition will, at some point, be handed over to officialdom for their perusal and consideration, presumably.
If said officialdom cotton on to the petiton organiser's anagram, they might not be inclined to take it quite as seriously as if it had a genuine organiser's name on it.

However sincere the aims and objectives of the petition are, I believe it is always wise not to give officialdom any excuse, however small, to reject it. Because if there is any opportunity for them to do nothing, they will grab it.

IMO, a petition is a formal, official document and should be formatted as such.
It is not the same as a forum, where by convention usernames are acceptable and the norm. A forum is, in the main, a meeting point for informal discussion under quite different circumstances -- I can't imagine any conditions under which such material would be presented to anyone in authority.

What if some signees decided to 'follow the leader' and sign the petition with anagrams of people connected with the case?

Cat McKenna? Paddy Naive? Jean Rannet?

I don't think the organiser would be very happy with that.

JMHO.

by MR.D 01.08.10 10:15

I do think that the petition should have a real name on it (ie the sponsor). Otherwise all the hard work collecting names may be in vain.

I have not signed it yet for this reason, it does need a real sponsor.

by ufercoffy 01.08.10 10:21

baconbutty wrote:However sincere the aims and objectives of the petition are, I believe it is always wise not to give officialdom any excuse, however small, to reject it. Because if there is any opportunity for them to do nothing, they will grab it.

I agree, we only have to look at the way the HO continue to dodge answering FOI questions.

by aiyoyo 02.08.10 3:53

The person originating this petition would have to provide real identity to authority in the first place to requisite this petition I would imagine.

by **sharonl** 02.08.10 7:56

Good Morning Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 977352

I think that the petitioner will identify themselves when the time comes, but if they do wish to remain anonymous The Madeleine Foundation will take responsibility for it as it is in line with our cause. If there was a problem, I would be more than happy to put my own name forward.

by Irish Eyes 02.08.10 14:20

sharonl wrote:Good Morning

I think that the petitioner will identify themselves when the time comes, but if they do wish to remain anonymous The Madeleine Foundation will take responsibility for it as it is in line with our cause. If there was a problem, I would be more than happy to put my own name forward.

Why don't you just admit that you know who the petitioner is and that it's most likely Bennett or yourself? Anyone would think the petitioner would be worried about CR in asking for a public enquiry.

by littlepixie 02.08.10 14:33

Well I think if people want to petition then that is up to them and others who dont support it should just keep their nose out, it doesnt affect them.

by Judge Mental 02.08.10 14:44

Irish Eyes wrote:
sharonl wrote:Good Morning

I think that the petitioner will identify themselves when the time comes, but if they do wish to remain anonymous The Madeleine Foundation will take responsibility for it as it is in line with our cause. If there was a problem, I would be more than happy to put my own name forward.

Why don't you just admit that you know who the petitioner is and that it's most likely Bennett or yourself? Anyone would think the petitioner would be worried about CR in asking for a public enquiry.

Irish Eyes. please would you give some indication as to why anybody would be worried about CR in this instance? One hopes you have some evidence to support your finger-pointing. One of one's own fingers is already poised to ban you because of your nonsensical contributions and failure to entertain or amuse

by Judge Mental 02.08.10 14:46

littlepixie wrote:Well I think if people want to petition then that is up to them and others who dont support it should just keep their nose out, it doesnt affect them.

Quite right.

by **sharonl** 02.08.10 15:06

Please accept my apologies, this statement went out from The Madeleine Foundation a few days ago and I should really have posted it here.

Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/289/petition-for-a-full-public-enquiry-into-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-with-the-power-to

We have identified the creator of the petition and this is definitely a genuine petition trying to garner support for the idea of a public enquiry. We cannot say any more about the petition creator at the moment since the petition creator wishes to remain anonymous, but please look at the wording of the petition itself, it's clear from this that it is no con.

You might like to take account of the fact that this case has world-wide interest and that Care2 Petitions has a good and international reputation. People are signing it from many countries. It appears that the idea of the anagram was a meant as a tribute to Goncalo Amaral and to promote awareness of him - it's certainly done that!

Look at how the ‘pros’ attacked the petition as soon as they saw it.

Consider carefully the wording of the petition itself and the accompanying introduction. If you agree, sign it, if you don't agree, then don't.

We are aware of what is said on some forums but we continue to recommend this petition. As for the idea that this could be used to harvest e-mail names for Team McCann, that really is nonsense. The Care Petitions site is a well-respected and voluntary petition site which never discloses e-mail names and would never dream of doing so. Besides, Team McCann over the past few years have had much easier ways of getting names and addresses if that is what they wanted to do.

We will be promoting the petition further as it’s fully consistent with our aims.

"If the petition attracts a significant level of support, The Madeleine Foundation intends to use that to press the U.K. government for a full public enquiry into Madeleine's disappearance. Others interested in what really happened to Madeleine could also of course do the same"

The Committee of the Madeleine Foundation

by Kololi 02.08.10 17:40

It is such a shame that there is so much mystery and nonsense surrounding the disappearance of this little girl.

What struck me initially as a good idea now leaves me mouth agog as we hear it is a conn to get email addresses then it isn't a conn. The person starting the petition uses an anagram of the Portuguese detective's name instead of their own. There is no good reason for that then there is a good reason for that depending on whose post you read. It just seems sometimes that this is all about people playing games with each other and hurting others in the process.

I do hope that some good comes from the petition for Madeleine but I am not so sure that any will now. If it is taken seriously even with the anagram name then it seems many people will try to rubbish it to ruin any credibility it might have held.

Just call me confused but comfortable to be sat on a fence forever hoping that one day somebody with appropriate authority and proof can accurately point the finger where it needs to be pointed so that whoever was involved with this little girls disappearance is caught and dealt with.

by Draco 03.08.10 1:26

I may change my mind about signing the petition, but for now there's too many unanswered questions for me to do so. Like :

If the petitioner wants to get as many signatures as possible, he/she shouldn't have used an alias. If there's nothing to be ashamed of, no dodgy tricks by anybody to collect names and email addresses, then I don't see why he/she couldn't use his/her own name.

It's also not clear to what government it's addressed. The Portuguese, the UK? Would either of these governments bother about the opinion of foreigners who are signing the petition?

What guarantee has the petitioner, or the government, that the people who've signed the petition are genuine people, not made up characters with made up throwaway email addresses?

The teneur of the comments makes it (even for the government) pretty clear this is not a request for an open minded enquiry.
How about the comments that are breaking the CARE2 TERMS OF SERVICE? Will they be deleted?
http://www.care2.com/help/general/tos.html

What if there's a been a public enquiry and the status quo isn't changed? What's next?

Is the person who's started the petition a member of the Foundation?

Why is Mrs Morais not supporting this petition? Why are the people over at MM sceptical about it?
What did you do, are you doing to change their minds?

When will the petition close? By a date or by reaching the target (2.000 signatures)?

by Judge Mental 03.08.10 11:52

@ Draco

Having just read your previous post, may one suggest that the best thing for you to do is to start your own petition and show us all how it should be done. Far better for you to lead us by example than watch us become embroiled in something you are not sure about. One looks forward to signing your own petition.

by Draco 03.08.10 22:00

@ JM Did you start this petition? Are you a member of the Foundation? How many successful petitions did the Madeleine Foundation start? And why don't they answer the questions, they are perfectly reasonable.

by aiyoyo 04.08.10 6:34

Judge Mental wrote:@ Draco

Having just read your previous post, may one suggest that the best thing for you to do is to start your own petition and show us all how it should be done. Far better for you to lead us by example than watch us become embroiled in something you are not sure about. One looks forward to signing your own petition.

Doubt anyone will sign Draco's petition even if made in her name given at birth without the usual spanish inquisition dealt out first!

Even, if TB or any MF member were to do in their given name they would still be damned from a different angle.

Let's go through the list of people who if so inclined to do it but wont face criticism? Bren? Joanna Morais? Jkh? Susan Menez? DB? or any of the less known personalities?
Which of these won't people hesitate to criticise before they sign, if they sign at all?

twats, nutters, pros and their irks won't raise a petition for the simple reason they think Maddie is still alive and maybe giving her tupperworth to her captor.

Fence sitters (where this case is concerned) are just people pretending to be without own mind- flow aimlessly with the strongest current.

As for the mccanns? AHHhhh.........the mccanns they need it like holes in their heads or should I say they'll never ask for FULL and COMPLETE review, not even over their dead bodies!

So who's the only courageous or possible who could have put this up? Does 2 + 2 makes five always?

by Judge Mental 04.08.10 9:51

Draco wrote:@ JM Did you start this petition? Are you a member of the Foundation? How many successful petitions did the Madeleine Foundation start? And why don't they answer the questions, they are perfectly reasonable.

There is a possibility that one may have started the petition. What if one were to say one had? Would one feel more confident signing a petition started by myself 'Judge Mental'? Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 110921

Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 110921

What business is it of yours as to whether I am a member of The Madeleine Foundation or not? May one suggest a trip to The Madeleine Foundation website to find out how many successful petitions The Foundation have started, or alternatively ask that you make contact with Tony Bennett privately, and see if he will give you the time of day and answer your questions. Better still, why not apply for membership so that you feel you are doing something worthwhile instead of sitting around asking questions that are of no use to anybody else?

by MR.D 04.08.10 10:32

I have signed the petition. I want as many people as possible to sign it.

It is good to read the comments on the petition.

How do you measure the success of a petition? Well for me the fact that people are prompted to think, discuss and comment about an issue is good result.

by baconbutty 04.08.10 10:49

OK, Devil's Advocate Part Deux --

Having been around this case for 3+ years now, one learns a lot about human nature along the way.
Your average justice seeker has been through the mill a fair bit, some more than others. What I can say with a modicum of certainty is that people grow terribly weary of secrecy. Of being kept in the dark.

We can all cite examples -- the clandestine skulduggery of the old 3As, similarly that of MM with its SSS and its 'elite' members. The pathetic info blackout on Butler's 'walk'.

It's things like this that are a turn off for many, indeed many have resigned from forums which behave in this way.

Of course, I am in no way saying that this petition is anything other than sincere. I believe that its intentions are worthwhile and honourable. But when people saw the name they had never heard of and then discovered that it was an anagram, alarm bells began to ring. And no doubt they rang because past experiences were triggered. At this point the damage was done.
It's obvious that a few people know full well who this petition organiser is. But why aren't the rest of the wider community allowed to know? Why keep it from them?

It just serves to make a person feel like an outsider, and it's not a nice feeling.
It might seem petty and nit-picking to some, but it's human nature.
JMHO.

by aiyoyo 04.08.10 16:07

baconbutty wrote:

It just serves to make a person feel like an outsider, and it's not a nice feeling.
It might seem petty and nit-picking to some, but it's human nature.
JMHO.

I definitely am not in the know who's behind it - only second guessing.

I dont mind being an outsider because I dont like to be an insider, clicky and all.

I dont mind so long as its genuine. I figure people must have a good and valid reason for staying anonymous. I dont have a problem with anonymity where a petition is concerned because its for good cause.

However I would object to people hiding behind cloak of anonymity or secrecy for a bad cause, example: just to attack, disrupt, or generally for something banal or imbecile - that would be a different matter altogether.

by Kololi 04.08.10 19:18

Aiyoyo said:

"Fence sitters (where this case is concerned) are just people pretending to be without own mind- flow aimlessly with the strongest current."

Hi Aiyoyo

May I just say that I don't call people who strongly believe the abduction theory ("pro's") nutters and neither do I call those who believe otherwise ("antis") nasty evil what have you's.

I don't necessarily agree with some of the extremist or spiteful comments made by some people from either side and will say so if I feel moved enough to - Kate McCann's choice of shoes and the hurtful comments made about Jill's mum??? Both totally uncalled for in my humble opinion and both unlikely to prove one way or another what happed to Madeleine McCann.

What I do do is respect and accept that people do not need to share my opinion of what I guess might have happened on that night and have their own reasons for thinking the way that they do. The bottom line is that my "guess" is just that, a guess, and as such holds no water other than in my own thoughts until somebody is tried and found guilty of being the cause of Madeleine's disappearance.

I post here amongst people who predominantly appear to believe that Madeleine was not abducted and I stand fast by my decision to do that because it is a pleasant forum to read and post on thanks to the way that it is run. If I was "flowing aimlessly with the strongest current posting here", I would be yelling from the rafters alongside Mr Bennett et al and posting or handing out his his leaflets for him.

Please guys, give me a break and be a little accepting that I don't necessarily need to be in bed with you to respect some of the differences of opinions that we might have with each other.

Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 Icon_flower

by **Jill Havern** 04.08.10 19:25

Kololi wrote:I post here amongst people who predominantly appear to believe that Madeleine was not abducted and I stand fast by my decision to do that because it is a pleasant forum to read and post on thanks to the way that it is run. If I was "flowing aimlessly with the strongest current posting here", I would be yelling from the rafters alongside Mr Bennett et al and posting or handing out his his leaflets for him.

Please guys, give me a break and be a little accepting that I don't necessarily need to be in bed with you to respect some of the differences of opinions that we might have with each other.

Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 759815

by Guest 04.08.10 20:02

jkh wrote:
Kololi wrote:I post here amongst people who predominantly appear to believe that Madeleine was not abducted and I stand fast by my decision to do that because it is a pleasant forum to read and post on thanks to the way that it is run. If I was "flowing aimlessly with the strongest current posting here", I would be yelling from the rafters alongside Mr Bennett et al and posting or handing out his his leaflets for him.

Please guys, give me a break and be a little accepting that I don't necessarily need to be in bed with you to respect some of the differences of opinions that we might have with each other.

I second Jill's thumbsup

This is a nice forum, and I firmly believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. - To be able to discuss and debate in a calm and measured way without some of the nasty things that go on in other places. thumbsup

Also a

to all the members.

by **Jill Havern** 04.08.10 20:12

candyfloss wrote:
jkh wrote:
Kololi wrote:I post here amongst people who predominantly appear to believe that Madeleine was not abducted and I stand fast by my decision to do that because it is a pleasant forum to read and post on thanks to the way that it is run. If I was "flowing aimlessly with the strongest current posting here", I would be yelling from the rafters alongside Mr Bennett et al and posting or handing out his his leaflets for him.

Please guys, give me a break and be a little accepting that I don't necessarily need to be in bed with you to respect some of the differences of opinions that we might have with each other.

I second Jill's This is a nice forum, and I firmly believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. - To be able to discuss and debate in a calm and measured way without some of the nasty things that go on in other places. Also a to all the members.

Exactly Miss Floss...Kololi has been with us for 7 months and has proved that people with different opinions can successfully chat in the same forum, and why not? Petition for a full public enquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance - Page 2 Icon_flower

by Autumn 04.08.10 21:21

Having been banned from 2 forums supposedly claiming to be seeking justice for Madeleine, I totally agree with your comments Kololi. Things have reached a sorry state of affairs when members who are totally committed to finding out what happened to Madeleine are kicked off forums because Admin demand that we denounce forums that do not have their seal of approval, regardless of the fact that they are fighting the same cause. Thank goodness for this place where we can have differences of opinion but still maintain a pleasant atmosphere thumbsup

by aiyoyo 05.08.10 5:48

Kololi wrote:Aiyoyo said:

"Fence sitters (where this case is concerned) are just people pretending to be without own mind- flow aimlessly with the strongest current."

Hi Aiyoyo

May I just say that I don't call people who strongly believe the abduction theory ("pro's") nutters and neither do I call those who believe otherwise ("antis") nasty evil what have you's.

I don't necessarily agree with some of the extremist or spiteful comments made by some people from either side and will say so if I feel moved enough to - Kate McCann's choice of shoes and the hurtful comments made about Jill's mum??? Both totally uncalled for in my humble opinion and both unlikely to prove one way or another what happed to Madeleine McCann.

What I do do is respect and accept that people do not need to share my opinion of what I guess might have happened on that night and have their own reasons for thinking the way that they do. The bottom line is that my "guess" is just that, a guess, and as such holds no water other than in my own thoughts until somebody is tried and found guilty of being the cause of Madeleine's disappearance.

I post here amongst people who predominantly appear to believe that Madeleine was not abducted and I stand fast by my decision to do that because it is a pleasant forum to read and post on thanks to the way that it is run. If I was "flowing aimlessly with the strongest current posting here", I would be yelling from the rafters alongside Mr Bennett et al and posting or handing out his his leaflets for him.

Please guys, give me a break and be a little accepting that I don't necessarily need to be in bed with you to respect some of the differences of opinions that we might have with each other.

Hey, it was a general comment not aimed at anyone. My apology if people take it personal., which it was not.

With all due respect , but your above points just proved my point in that even ‘so called fence sitters’ do form and have their own opinion of what they think happened to Madeleine, and not that they don’t have an opinion at all, because it’s human’s innate nature to form an opinion. Despite that opinion, no matter what it be, they’re willing to go along with the flow of the current of discussions in the spirtt of the forum theme if you like. I do regard that as going along with the flow of the current ,but maybe the word ‘strongest’ was inappropriate.

Maybe I didn’t put it so well before - I didn’t mean fence sitters flow blindly with the srongest current, but they do flow with certain type of current of their choice or rather current of the forum. What you’ve described is someone who already have with an opinion (of the fate of Madeleine) but leave an open mind where foregone conclusion is concerned, ie innocent until proven guilty. And, while we’re on the subject of fence sitter, to me, that is largely different from pretendy fence sitters who use that as excuse to disrupt when they are in fact pros. For me agenda loaded fence sitter and open minded are two different matters altogether.

I totally agree anyone objective and sensible would object to radical or vile remarks from either side which are so unpleasant and unnecessary. Banal debate like people’s taste of clothes or whatnot and people’s personal life is abhorrent to read - oh I absolutely agree that kind of behavior has nothing to do Madeleine.

I am a strong advocate that all people should be allowed their views, even dissenting views, even people who had made mistakes in the past , so long as they’re not disruptive or bad mannered, and be able to post them up without fear of being banned for being different. While rudeness can be spotted miles off, disruptiveness can sometimes border on subjectiveness because unfortunately mistrust is rife.

by Kololi 05.08.10 16:10

Thank you, especially Aiyoyo.

I did take it personally and should not have. Sometimes us folks who prefer to try and keep an open mind or who are plain unsure can get kicked from both sides and whilst usually, it is easy to ignore, sometimes when the kicking is hard, a post like yours feels like the straw that broke the camel's back and moves me to retaliate a little.

No hard feelings on my side and as stated in an earlier post, I do hope that good comes from this petition - not sure it will but I do hope so.

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