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Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Mm11

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Regist10

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions

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Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Empty Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 10:28

AFTER 8 YEARS AND SEVEN MONTHS, STILL NO TRACE OF 'SMITHMAN', and NO TRACE OF 'TANNERMAN'.

I WONDER WHY?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Metropolitan Police Service (MPS)

18 December 2015
   
Dear Mr Bennett

Freedom of Information Request Reference No:  2015110001462

I respond in connection with your request for information which was received by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) on 30/11/2015.  I note you seek access to the following information:

Please provide the following information about Operation Grange:
       
1. On 14 October 2013 on BBC Crimewatch, DCI Andy Redwood presented two e-fit images of a man he said was 'the centre of our focus'. He asked people to say who he might be. He announced days later that hundreds had called in with a possible identification. Are we, the public, still supposed to be looking for him? Or has been traced, identified and eliminated?        
 
2. On the McCanns' 'Find Madeleine' website, there is an image of a faceless man - whom the McCann investigation team still say is a suspect - wearing a dark jacket and beige trousers, which was drawn up by Melissa Little, paid for by the head of the McCanns' private investigation team, Brian Kennedy, based on the recollections of Jane Tanner, and released to the public in late October 2007, nearly six months after the reported disappearance of Madeleine     McCann. Is Operation Grange still asking (as they were previously) for the public's help in tracing this man, as well as the man in the two
e-fits? Or not?      
   
3. Who will make the final decision as to whether or not to close or 'shelve' the active investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann...    

(a) The current DCI, Nicola Wall, or any successor of hers?
(b) The current S.I.O. or her/his successor?    

(c) A more senior Met Police Officer?    
(d) Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, or any successor of his?  
(e) The Home Secretary?    

(f) The Prime Minister? - or    
(g) Someone else?        

4. If and when Operation Grange is closed, or the investigation is 'shelved', is it the Met Police's intention to provide a report to either

(a) the public
(b) the Mayor of London's Police Committee    
(c) the Home Secretary or
(d) the Prime Minister
on its work and achievements?    

EXTENT OF SEARCHES TO LOCATE INFORMATION

To locate the information relevant to your request searches were conducted within the MPS.

DECISION

I have today decided to disclose the located information to you in full:


The MPS response to Q1 and Q2 is:

These images remain unidentified. Any information that the public may have that may assist in this investigation will always be appreciated.

The MPS response to Q3 is:

As in all major enquiries any decision to close the active phase of an investigation is taken by a senior officer in consultation with the relevant partners and stakeholders. It is then kept under review for new opportunities.  

The MPS response to Q4 is:


When an operation or investigation is closed part of the process would be a full report - with whom it is shared is a decision for the future.



For your information you have not made a request for recorded information which may be held by the MPS but questions around a topic.

Due to the way you have phrased your questions we have answered your questions outside of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (the Act).

Disclosure will be made under the term Business As Usual (BAU).

If you are unhappy with the way I have dealt with this request or should you have any further enquiries concerning this matter, please email me, quoting the reference number above.

Yours sincerely

Paul O'Shea
Information Manager

In complying with their statutory duty under sections 1 and 11 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to release the enclosed information, the Patents Act 1988. However, the rights of the copyright owner of the enclosed information will continue to be protected by law.  Applications for the copyright owner's written permission to reproduce any part of the attached information should be addressed to MPS Directorate of Legal Services, 1st Floor (Victoria Block), New Scotland Yard, Victoria, London, SW1H 0BG.

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Consider our environment - please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary.

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____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Richard IV on 22.12.15 11:00

Well I never.  Such unspecific answers to Tony`s very specific questions. 

The ability to give vague answers must be one of the requirements of an Information Manager.
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Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 11:32

I have just e-mailed the letter below to Operation Grange...

...whose e-mail address, by the way, remains Operation.Grange@met.police.uk

======================

QUOTE

@ Operation Grange

Thank you for your answers dated 18 December 2015 about two individuals who say they saw a man who didn't look like a tourist carrying a young blonde girl clad only in pyjamas.

One was Jane Tanner who said she saw this man at 9.15pm.

The other was Martin Smith who said that he and other members of his family saw this man at 10.00pm.

In your Freedom of Information Act response, you say that you are still looking for a man, or two men, represented by a forensic artist's sketch (Jane Tanner) or two different e-fits (the Smiths).

On 14 October 2013, DCI Andy Redwood said that the 'Smith sighting' was "the centre of our focus".

I cannot see anywhere on the Metropolitan Police website where I can find these three images, which I find very odd.

Can you point me to where they can be found please?

And if you are not currently displaying these images, could you please do so, to give the British public a better chance of identifying them.

Are any of these images actively on display in Portugal or in any other country please?

Sincerely

Tony Bennett

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 22.12.15 15:36

@Richard IV wrote:Well I never.  Such unspecific answers to Tony`s very specific questions. 

The ability to give vague answers must be one of the requirements of an Information Manager.
Very condescending of them to be so evasive don't you think?  One thing for sure, if anyone ever trusted the ruling masses to be transparent by actually being honest with their citizens - they're bonkers!

No way did the UK authorities ever intend to give out information they want to be secreted.  This response is a prime example - half hearted information to appease but at the same time giving nothing away.  Bet they cringe everytime they see the name TB.

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Post by Verdi on 22.12.15 15:36

@Tony Bennett wrote:I have just e-mailed the letter below to Operation Grange...

...whose e-mail address, by the way, remains Operation.Grange@met.police.uk

======================

QUOTE

@ Operation Grange

Thank you for your answers dated 18 December 2015 about two individuals who say they saw a man who didn't look like a tourist carrying a young blonde girl clad only in pyjamas.

One was Jane Tanner who said she saw this man at 9.15pm.

The other was Martin Smith who said that he and other members of his family saw this man at 10.00pm.

In your Freedom of Information Act response, you say that you are still looking for a man, or two men, represented by a forensic artist's sketch (Jane Tanner) or two different e-fits (the Smiths).

On 14 October 2013, DCI Andy Redwood said that the 'Smith sighting' was "the centre of our focus".

I cannot see anywhere on the Metropolitan Police website where I can find these three images, which I find very odd.

Can you point me to where they can be found please?

And if you are not currently displaying these images, could you please do so, to give the British public a better chance of identifying them.

Are any of these images actively on display in Portugal or in any other country please?

Sincerely

Tony Bennett
eyebrows

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Post by Guest on 22.12.15 16:02

Odd, but I'd go the other way.

The answers to Q1 and Q2 I take as indicating that both Tannerman and Smithman are 'persons of interest' who have not been identified to a sufficient level, as of Dec 2015, and hence further public input is required.

The answers to Q3 and Q4 I would have expected to be vague, and the answers - roughly that the proper authorities will make an appropriate decision at the relevant time - are as vague as I would have anticipated.

What surprises me is the apparent clarity of Q1/Q2 answers.  It looks like someone has decided a different approach to the 2013 Crimewatch was in order.
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Post by plebgate on 22.12.15 16:54

Hi Tony, would you please be able explain the point about Tannerman.  Err, um, um, I thought Tannerman had voluntarily come foward and he was  a dad who had been carrying his child toward or away from the night creche!  It is all so confusing to me.   HELLLP please. smilie
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Post by Richard IV on 22.12.15 17:59

The public have already been told not to bother about Tannerman because Andy Redwood miraculously found him - he`s Crecheman don`tcha know.
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Post by plebgate on 22.12.15 18:38

@Richard IV wrote:The public have already been told not to bother about Tannerman because Andy Redwood miraculously found him - he`s Crecheman don`tcha know.
snipped from Reply to Ton's FOI:

"
The MPS response to Q1 and Q2 is:

These images remain unidentified. Any information that the public may have that may assist in this investigation will always be appreciated."


Yes that's what I thought but from the way the answer is worded it sounds to me as though Tannerman image remains unidetified?

Tony will hopefully be able to say whether he thinks this is what is meant or not.



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Post by Richard IV on 22.12.15 19:01

@plebgate wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:The public have already been told not to bother about Tannerman because Andy Redwood miraculously found him - he`s Crecheman don`tcha know.
snipped from Reply to Ton's FOI:

"
The MPS response to Q1 and Q2 is:

These images remain unidentified. Any information that the public may have that may assist in this investigation will always be appreciated."


Yes that's what I thought but from the way the answer is worded it sounds to me as though Tannerman image remains unidetified?

Tony will hopefully be able to say whether he thinks this is what is meant or not.



You`re right - they`ve told a downright lie there.
Tannerman was definitely identified as Mr. Crecheman, an innocent holidaymaker carrying his child back from the night creche (but in the wrong direction).  They decided to keep his details secret, therefore not identifying him to the public.
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Post by kinell on 22.12.15 20:03

Sounds like TB has tripped 'em up.

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Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 22:20

@Richard IV wrote:
@plebgate wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:The public have already been told not to bother about Tannerman because Andy Redwood miraculously found him - he`s Crecheman don`tcha know.
snipped from Reply to Ton's FOI:

"The MPS response to Q1 and Q2 is:

These images remain unidentified. Any information that the public may have that may assist in this investigation will always be appreciated."


Yes that's what I thought but from the way the answer is worded it sounds to me as though Tannerman image remains unidetified?

Tony will hopefully be able to say whether he thinks this is what is meant or not.


You`re right - they`ve told a downright lie there.

Tannerman was definitely identified as Mr. Crecheman, an innocent holidaymaker carrying his child back from the night creche (but in the wrong direction).  They decided to keep his details secret, therefore not identifying him to the public.
@  Richard IV    Your statement: 'Tannerman was definitely identified as Mr Crecheman" is technically incorrect.  

Let me completely clear this up - I will do so by reproducing the relevant excerpt from the transcript if that travesty of the BBC Crimewatch McCann Show transmitted on 14 October 2013. I've have highlighted the relevant words in red:

============================


REDWOOD

One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and  8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.
 
AMROLIWALA (BBC)

The British father had collected his two-year-old daughter from the crèche. He had been walking near the McCanns’ apartment.

[PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN]

This is the actual photograph taken by Metropolitan Police Officers of the man dressed in the kind of clothes he wore on holiday. This image was compared to the artist’s impression [based on Jane Tanner’s statement].

[CRECHEMAN AND TANNERMAN MERGED SO THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE VERY SIMILAR]

It is uncannily similar – and we know from the pyjamas that their child was wearing that it is, again, uncannily striking, the similarity.

AMROLIWALA

So, what you’re saying is that the timeline that everyone was working on for four years in this case…was wrong?

REDWOOD

We’re almost certain, now, that this sighting is not the abductor. But very importantly, what it says is that from 9.15, we are able to allow the clock…

==========================

These people are very cunning .That BBC Crimewatch script had been scrupulously planned for months. And as can be seen, the crafty coppers left themselves a get-out.

They were not certain that Crecheman was Tannerman.

They were merely 'almost' certain.

So the ridiculous stage we've now reached is that we have (according to Grange) identified one bloke, Crecheman, who was walking without the child's mother and carrying a young blonde child back to his apartment clad only in pyjamas - even though, on a cold night, he took a long route round from the crèche to where he was actually seen. Funny that.

We also have the Smiths with their claims of also having seen a similar bloke.

And because, well, you know, we're almost certain, but sort of not quite sure, but nearly, that Crecheman is Tannerman, well, there could even have been a third man walking around Praia da Luz, without the child's mother, and carrying his young blonde daughter back home - or maybe abducting Madeleine. We're leaving no stone unturned, you know, and we even drew everything back to zero.

So, once again, Grange has spoken, this time via a Freedom of Information Act requests.

Think hard.

Do you remember seeing this bloke over 8 years ago?

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Zzzzzz13

Or a bloke looking like one or other of these two?  

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Smithm10



The unidentified abductor remains the centre of our focus. If you think you know who any of these men are, give me a call at the Yard - D.C.I. Nikki Wall 

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 22.12.15 22:31

@TonyBennett

You beat me to it - only in greater detail.  So as not to have completely wasted my time listening (again) to the Crimewatch production for that revelation moment, I'll post my contribution anyway..

DCI Andy Redwood speaks

"One particular family we spoke to gave us information that was really interesting and exciting.  In fact I would say it was a revelation moment when having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they 'could' be the Tanner sighting....

....we are 'almost' certain now this sighting is not the abductor....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y  @ 21:54


Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Tannerman-and-crc3a8cheman

Before - Tannerman                                         After - Crecheman

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Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 22:42

@Verdi wrote:
Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Tannerman-and-crc3a8cheman

Before - Tannerman                                         After - Crecheman
Every single one of them: Tannerman, Smithman, Crecheman, fabrications IMO - or 'Phantoms', in the words of Richard Hall:

[ PHANTOMS, by Richard Hall, uploaded by Lizzy HideHo:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL0-ePd3FCU ]

And all based on a fourth fabrication, namely Nuno Lourenco's lies about Polish businessman, Wojchiech Krokowski, having nearly kidnapped his daughter outside a café and cake shop in Sagres.

A story not tackled in our mainstream press because of the might of our media and our libel laws.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 22.12.15 22:51

@TonyBennett wrote:  And all based on a fourth fabrication, namely Nuno Lourenco's lies about Polish businessman, Wojchiech Krokowski, having nearly kidnapped his daughter outside a café and cake shop in Sagres.

Indeed, why should he be left out of the ID parade..

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions 01_VOLUMEIa_Page_194

Lest they forget.

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Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 23:03

@Verdi wrote:
Indeed, why should he be left out of the ID parade..

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions 01_VOLUMEIa_Page_194
Lest they forget.
Quite right.

Yes, let's have all four men on show.

The four men who were all...

* aged about 30 to 40

* wore cloth clothes

* didn't look like a tourist 

* had dark hair

* wearing a jacket 

* and light-coloured trousers

* and dark, classic shoes...

... and three of whom...

* were carrying their daughters

* clad only in pyjamas

* coloured white and pink

* who all looked just like Madeleine McCann

* on a chilly early May night

* in the dark

* with no buggy

* and with the child's mother not with them....


Boy, did Wojcheich Krokowksi play a major role in this whole tale! -

Not to mention accomplished liar Nuno Lourenco...

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 22.12.15 23:13

@TonyBennett wrote: 

Boy, did Wojcheich Krokowksi play a major role in this whole tale! -

Not to mention accomplished liar Nuno Lourenco...



Bearing in mind the 'timeline' (scoff!) of the Lourenco story, well in advance of the Tanner/Smith creation - yes, I believe you could well be right!

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Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Empty Re: Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.12.15 23:18

@Verdi wrote:@TonyBennett wrote: 

Boy, did Wojcheich Krokowksi play a major role in this whole tale! -

Not to mention accomplished liar Nuno Lourenco...



Bearing in mind the 'timeline' (scoff!) of the Lourenco story, well in advance of the Tanner/Smith creation - yes, I believe you could well be right!

Somebody gave Nuno Lourenco a script, made him learn it, and told him exactly when to 'phone the PJ. He had taken a pic of Krokowsli's rented car just to embellish the story and give it the edge of reality his tale needed.

He did well. He utterly fooled Goncalo Amaral.

If only we could find out who put him up to this, the case would be solved

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Empty Re: Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 23.12.15 6:22

And who works for Murdoch to embellish the McCann's fairystory?

Possibly:

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Z

Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions 9k=
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Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions Empty Re: Both SMITHMAN and TANNERMAN still not yet found - Met Police STILL looking for them - and give me a full response to my Freedom of Information Act questions

Post by Verdi on 23.12.15 15:25

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@TonyBennett wrote: 

Boy, did Wojcheich Krokowksi play a major role in this whole tale! -

Not to mention accomplished liar Nuno Lourenco...



Bearing in mind the 'timeline' (scoff!) of the Lourenco story, well in advance of the Tanner/Smith creation - yes, I believe you could well be right!

Somebody gave Nuno Lourenco a script, made him learn it, and told him exactly when to 'phone the PJ. He had taken a pic of Krokowsli's rented car just to embellish the story and give it the edge of reality his tale needed.

He did well. He utterly fooled Goncalo Amaral.

If only we could find out who put him up to this, the case would be solved
I'll wager someone with a very good knowledge of the locality and intimacy with residents and regular tourists.  Now let me think, who might that be...

thinking?

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The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
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