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Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 15.11.15 11:44

@aquila wrote:It was just the same with the Catholic church when the IRA bombed Birmingham.
That isn't true at all.

“Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society … On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace... Let history record that at a difficult moment in the experience of the people of Ireland, the Bishop of Rome set foot in your land, that he was with you and prayed with you for peace and reconciliation, for the victory of justice and love over hatred and violence." 
-- Pope John Paul II Appeal to IRA in Drogheda, September 1979
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Richard IV on 15.11.15 11:44

Here -

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

Muslim leaders the world over are condemning the horrific terror attacks that struck Paris Friday night, expressing outrage and shock at an onslaught of shootings and bombings that left at least 120 dead and hundreds wounded.
The outpouring of support for the victims and and disgust for the attacks began even before ISIS, the militant terrorist group current terrorizing entire sections of Iraq and Syria, claimed responsibility for the carnage. Muslim imamsscholarscommentators, and average Muslims expressed grief and horror using social media. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, an Islamic movement founded in British India in the 19th century, released a statement rebuking the “barbaric attacks.”
In Ireland, the Imam of the Al-Mustafa Islamic Centre and Chair of the Irish Muslim Peace & Integration Council, offered prayers for the victims and dismissed terrorist’s claims to Islam.
“My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris and every other place on earth plagued by sick men with weapons and bombs,” Imam Umar Al-Qadri said. “Terrorists have no religion whatsoever. Their religion is intolerance, hatred for Peace.”
Shuja Shafi, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, repeated Al-Qadri’s rejection of ISIS.
“This attack is being claimed by the group calling themselves ‘Islamic State’,” he said. “There is nothing Islamic about such people and their actions are evil, and outside the boundaries set by our faith.”
The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University, the thousand-year-old, highly influential center for Sunni Muslim scholarship, called the attacks “odious” and called on the world to “unite to face this monster,” according to French magazine Jeunea Frique.
There is nothing Islamic about such people and their actions are evil, and outside the boundaries set by our faith.
Leaders of several Muslim-majority nations also spoke out. Iranian president Hassan Rouhani called the attacks a “crime against humanity,” Qatari foreign minister Khaled al-Attiyah described them as “heinous,” and Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister declared they were “in violation and contravention of all ethics, morals and religions.” Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body also spoke out, saying“terrorists are not sanctioned by Islam and these acts are contrary to values of mercy it brought to the world.”
Joko Widodo, president of Indonesia — the largest Muslim nation population-wise — said “Indonesia condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”
In the United States, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Muslim social justice group, quickly issued a press release rejecting terrorism — something they do regularly in response to such incidents. Their statement also made mention of a bombing in Beirut, Lebanon on Thursday that wounded 200 and killed 45. Three residents of Dearborn, Michigan lost their lives in that attack attack, which ISIS also claimed responsibility for.
“These savage and despicable attacks on civilians, whether they occur in Paris, Beirut or any other city, are outrageous and without justification,” CAIR’s statement read. “We condemn these horrific crimes in the strongest terms possible. Our thoughts and prayers are with the loved ones of those killed and injured and with all of France. The perpetrators of these heinous attacks must be apprehended and brought to justice.”
CAIR is also part of a broad coalition of Muslim groups scheduled to hold a press conference noon Saturday to collectively condemn the attacks. The group is said to include representatives from CAIR, American Muslims for Palestine, Islamic Circle of North America, Muslim Alliance in North America, Muslim American Society, Muslim Legal Fund of America, Muslim Ummah of North America, and the Mosque Cares.
Pope Francis appeared to echo their rejection of ISIS’s religious claims in a phone interview with the Italian Bishops’ Conference television network on Friday. Explaining that he sees the violence as part of a “piecemeal Third World War,” he said “there is no religious or human justification” for the attacks.
“I am close to the people of France, to the families of the victims, and I am praying for all of them,” Pope Francissaid. “I am moved and I am saddened. I do not understand, these things hard to understand.”
The Vatican seconded the pope on Saturday.
“We are shocked by this new manifestation of maddening, terrorist violence and hatred which we condemn in the most radical way together with the pope and all those who love peace,” said Rev. Federico Lombardi, the Vatican’s chief spokesman said in a statement.
The response is expressive of the global Muslim community’s longstanding condemnation of ISIS in general, which faith leaders repeatedly insist is not Islamic.
Such responses are common after terror attacks, although many Muslims and non-Muslims have expressed frustration with being expected to condemn repeatedly the actions of small militant groups who commit violence in the name of Islam, whereas Christians and members of other religious groups are rarely expected to do the same. Other Muslims expressed frustration that leaders of some Middle Eastern nations condemned the Paris attack but not the sometimes deadly tactics used to silence political opposition in their own countries.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 15.11.15 11:54

Also when Birmingham IRA man James McDade blew himself up trying to bomb Coventry, Birmingham Catholic Archbishop George Dwyer forbade a funeral service for him.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by aquila on 15.11.15 12:01

@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:It was just the same with the Catholic church when the IRA bombed Birmingham.
That isn't true at all.

“Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society … On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace... Let history record that at a difficult moment in the experience of the people of Ireland, the Bishop of Rome set foot in your land, that he was with you and prayed with you for peace and reconciliation, for the victory of justice and love over hatred and violence." 
-- Pope John Paul II Appeal to IRA in Drogheda, September 1979
Thank you BlueBag. Did Pope JP arrive in Birmingham (or Ireland for that matter) in 1974 just after the bombings?
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by aquila on 15.11.15 12:02

@Richard IV wrote:Here -

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

Muslim leaders the world over are condemning the horrific terror attacks that struck Paris Friday night, expressing outrage and shock at an onslaught of shootings and bombings that left at least 120 dead and hundreds wounded.
The outpouring of support for the victims and and disgust for the attacks began even before ISIS, the militant terrorist group current terrorizing entire sections of Iraq and Syria, claimed responsibility for the carnage. Muslim imamsscholarscommentators, and average Muslims expressed grief and horror using social media. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, an Islamic movement founded in British India in the 19th century, released a statement rebuking the “barbaric attacks.”
In Ireland, the Imam of the Al-Mustafa Islamic Centre and Chair of the Irish Muslim Peace & Integration Council, offered prayers for the victims and dismissed terrorist’s claims to Islam.
“My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris and every other place on earth plagued by sick men with weapons and bombs,” Imam Umar Al-Qadri said. “Terrorists have no religion whatsoever. Their religion is intolerance, hatred for Peace.”
Shuja Shafi, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, repeated Al-Qadri’s rejection of ISIS.
“This attack is being claimed by the group calling themselves ‘Islamic State’,” he said. “There is nothing Islamic about such people and their actions are evil, and outside the boundaries set by our faith.”
The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University, the thousand-year-old, highly influential center for Sunni Muslim scholarship, called the attacks “odious” and called on the world to “unite to face this monster,” according to French magazine Jeunea Frique.
There is nothing Islamic about such people and their actions are evil, and outside the boundaries set by our faith.
Leaders of several Muslim-majority nations also spoke out. Iranian president Hassan Rouhani called the attacks a “crime against humanity,” Qatari foreign minister Khaled al-Attiyah described them as “heinous,” and Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister declared they were “in violation and contravention of all ethics, morals and religions.” Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body also spoke out, saying“terrorists are not sanctioned by Islam and these acts are contrary to values of mercy it brought to the world.”
Joko Widodo, president of Indonesia — the largest Muslim nation population-wise — said “Indonesia condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”
In the United States, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Muslim social justice group, quickly issued a press release rejecting terrorism — something they do regularly in response to such incidents. Their statement also made mention of a bombing in Beirut, Lebanon on Thursday that wounded 200 and killed 45. Three residents of Dearborn, Michigan lost their lives in that attack attack, which ISIS also claimed responsibility for.
“These savage and despicable attacks on civilians, whether they occur in Paris, Beirut or any other city, are outrageous and without justification,” CAIR’s statement read. “We condemn these horrific crimes in the strongest terms possible. Our thoughts and prayers are with the loved ones of those killed and injured and with all of France. The perpetrators of these heinous attacks must be apprehended and brought to justice.”
CAIR is also part of a broad coalition of Muslim groups scheduled to hold a press conference noon Saturday to collectively condemn the attacks. The group is said to include representatives from CAIR, American Muslims for Palestine, Islamic Circle of North America, Muslim Alliance in North America, Muslim American Society, Muslim Legal Fund of America, Muslim Ummah of North America, and the Mosque Cares.
Pope Francis appeared to echo their rejection of ISIS’s religious claims in a phone interview with the Italian Bishops’ Conference television network on Friday. Explaining that he sees the violence as part of a “piecemeal Third World War,” he said “there is no religious or human justification” for the attacks.
“I am close to the people of France, to the families of the victims, and I am praying for all of them,” Pope Francissaid. “I am moved and I am saddened. I do not understand, these things hard to understand.”
The Vatican seconded the pope on Saturday.
“We are shocked by this new manifestation of maddening, terrorist violence and hatred which we condemn in the most radical way together with the pope and all those who love peace,” said Rev. Federico Lombardi, the Vatican’s chief spokesman said in a statement.
The response is expressive of the global Muslim community’s longstanding condemnation of ISIS in general, which faith leaders repeatedly insist is not Islamic.
Such responses are common after terror attacks, although many Muslims and non-Muslims have expressed frustration with being expected to condemn repeatedly the actions of small militant groups who commit violence in the name of Islam, whereas Christians and members of other religious groups are rarely expected to do the same. Other Muslims expressed frustration that leaders of some Middle Eastern nations condemned the Paris attack but not the sometimes deadly tactics used to silence political opposition in their own countries.
None of this in the mainstream media though is there?
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Guest on 15.11.15 12:05

@Realist wrote:
@aquila wrote: and tears for what is yet to come.

Vive la France

Are you referring to further 'terrorist' attacks, or further gov. attacks on civil liberties, not that there's many left to attack. Nothing much has changed since medieval times, the only difference being, instead of subjugating the proletariat through religion and threats of burning in hell, the ruling elite now use their handmaidens, the media, to control them through the threat of terrorism.

Although this attack occurred in France, let there be no doubt that the British government will use it as an excuse to impose ever more blairesque draconianism on its already subservient subjects. At the very least, this latest attack must surely warrant calls from the 'Sun' and 'Daily Mail' for further benefit cuts on the poor and disabled, or perhaps even the banning of water pistols and the supply of kitchen utensils in any material other than plastic.
Hi Realist, I agree that this attack will be used to further restrict our civil liberties in the UK.  Although the last few lines of your post are, I think, ridiculous!
Welcome back, BTW.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 15.11.15 12:06

@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:It was just the same with the Catholic church when the IRA bombed Birmingham.
That isn't true at all.

“Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society … On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace... Let history record that at a difficult moment in the experience of the people of Ireland, the Bishop of Rome set foot in your land, that he was with you and prayed with you for peace and reconciliation, for the victory of justice and love over hatred and violence." 
-- Pope John Paul II Appeal to IRA in Drogheda, September 1979
Thank you BlueBag. Did Pope JP arrive in Birmingham (or Ireland for that matter) in 1974 just after the bombings?
No but the Catholic Church condemned the violence through the Archbishop of Birmingham who did a very brave thing to deny McDade a funeral.
That WAS in the news and it upset the IRA.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by aquila on 15.11.15 12:16

@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:It was just the same with the Catholic church when the IRA bombed Birmingham.
That isn't true at all.

“Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society … On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace... Let history record that at a difficult moment in the experience of the people of Ireland, the Bishop of Rome set foot in your land, that he was with you and prayed with you for peace and reconciliation, for the victory of justice and love over hatred and violence." 
-- Pope John Paul II Appeal to IRA in Drogheda, September 1979
Thank you BlueBag. Did Pope JP arrive in Birmingham (or Ireland for that matter) in 1974 just after the bombings?
No but the Catholic Church condemned the violence through the Archbishop of Birmingham who did a very brave thing to deny McDade a funeral.
That WAS in the news and it upset the IRA.
and all the while the USA were funding the IRA.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 15.11.15 12:22

@aquila wrote:

and all the while the USA were funding the IRA.
Yes, some Irish people in the USA were - some were appalled. I had Irish relatives there at the time.

I don't think the US Catholic Church was condoning violence though.

The Catholic Church in the UK was actively condemning it.


STAY ON TOPIC, PLEASE.  MOD.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Realist on 15.11.15 12:37

@Ladyinred wrote:

Hi Realist, I agree that this attack will be used to further restrict our civil liberties in the UK.  Although the last few lines of your post are, I think, ridiculous!
Welcome back, BTW.

I may have been exaggerating a tad to prove a point, Ladyinred big grin However, how many people 30 yrs. ago would have envisaged the robotic, media controlled, Britain's Peoples' Republik of today. Why even the cars look the same, with obese, Lowrie lookalike figures clad in nylon grunge uniforms. bearing concentration camp tattoo markings and carrying gov. tracking devices, euphemistically referred to as mobile phones big grin

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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by aquila on 15.11.15 12:44

@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:

and all the while the USA were funding the IRA.
Yes, some Irish people in the USA were - some were appalled. I had Irish relatives there at the time.

I don't think the US Catholic Church was condoning violence though.

The Catholic Church in the UK was actively condemning it.
I'm sure many people in UK who frequented 'Irish' pubs can recall having a collection box thrust in their faces to drop in a coin or two 'for the cause' and did so not because they agreed with it but because there was a blind threat if you didn't. Same goes for USA - although in USA there is always that sympathy with 'the old home'.

I know this is off topic for the Paris thread and I apologise.

My brother left one of the pubs that were bombed in Birmingham in 1974 twenty minutes before the bomb went off.

There was a huge backlash on the Irish in every community in Birmingham. There was outrage, Irish people were told to stay away from work by their employers, were not served in shops etc. There was huge anger in communities that had existed fairly peacefully up until that moment. Factories went on strike. Irish people resident in Birmingham were in tears of despair.

In a roundabout way what I'm trying to say is that there seems to be no outrage from anyone anymore towards terrorism. We are all plebs as there is nothing we can do. There is only sadness and fear. Terrorism on the streets of UK is likely. Most muslims don't want that and neither does anyone else.

As for Islam...I think it has no place in the Western world...but I'm only a pleb and not a government doing business with islamic states who have oil.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 15.11.15 13:01

@aquila wrote:

There was a huge backlash on the Irish in every community in Birmingham.
I know.

Only too well, I was at school at the time and it wasn't pleasant. Luckily there were 2 other Irish catholics in my class and one was rather big.

I also know how generally appalled the Birmingham Irish Community was.

I guess like many Muslims who don't believe in their religion THAT much.

Edit:
------------
This doesn't in any way imply I have the least sympathy for Islam. I have none and I wish it would disappear from our society. 
I also am against mass immigration.
No one ever asked the British people "is this what you want?"
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by aquila on 15.11.15 13:04

@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:

There was a huge backlash on the Irish in every community in Birmingham.
I know.

Only too well, I was at school at the time and it wasn't pleasant. Luckily there were 2 other Irish catholics in my class and one was rather big.

I also know how generally appalled the Birmingham Irish Community was.

I guess like many Muslims who don't believe in their religion THAT much.

Edit:
------------
This doesn't in any way imply I have the least sympathy for Islam. I have none and I wish it would disappear from our society. 
I also am against mass immigration.
No one ever asked the British people "is this what you want?"
friends


ontopic
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Realist on 15.11.15 13:25

@BlueBag wrote:

No one ever asked the British people "is this what you want?"

They weren't asked if they wanted the 1998 Firearms Act, the 2002 Proceeds of Crime Act, the 2003 Criminal Justice Act, the 2007 Welfare Reform Act, etc. etc etc. either.

In fact, the only matter the proletariat are ever given a choice in, is whether they wish to vote for people who they normally wouldn't want to share a train carriage with, never mind have an influence over their future. The only politico who ever had the British peoples' interest at heart was Guido Fawkes.

I have no sympathy with terrorists, if for no other reason than their targetting of the innocent, some of whom may well share the same causes.If a terrorist should ever decide to spray the Houses of Parliament with lead from a Kalashnikov, I doubt whether there would be much public sympathy other than the media force fed variety.

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Paris attacks

Post by willowthewisp on 15.11.15 15:06

@Realist wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:

No one ever asked the British people "is this what you want?"

They weren't asked if they wanted the 1998 Firearms Act, the 2002 Proceeds of Crime Act, the 2003 Criminal Justice Act, the 2007 Welfare Reform Act, etc. etc etc. either.

In fact, the only matter the proletariat are ever given a choice in, is whether they wish to vote for people who they normally wouldn't want to share a train carriage with, never mind have an influence over their future. The only politico who ever had the British peoples' interest at heart was Guido Fawkes.

I have no sympathy with terrorists, if for no other reason than their targetting of the innocent, some of whom may well share the same causes.If a terrorist should ever decide to spray the Houses of Parliament with lead from a Kalashnikov, I doubt whether there would be much public sympathy other than the media force fed variety.
Truly sad times happening all over the world at the present moment with the enormous loss of innocent lives, not just in Paris but throughout the world.
It seems as though throughout the world the only time "Politicians/Leaders tend to want to be part of the Human race" is when they feel as though they are losing control over events?
It seems as the human race needs to be controlled in their eyes and this can only happen in these person's having the Authority to Govern the masses, like a doctrine, that the human race has no collective thought process, Good versus Evil or they have no say in the matter only they will have to fight against the other side opposing their doctrine, note you don't have a vote in this decision, they decide on your behalf, Iraq War anyone?
The elite in society must be protected by the under class used as cannon fodder in their campaigns and if Vvctorious then have commemorations on these souls' bravery, yet instil politicians to control the masses to benefit cuts and their pensions to inflict a harshness to the future generations, so what did they fight for to be governed by the few?
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Verdi on 15.11.15 20:10

The conflicting views on this forum alone show there is no solution to the ongoing world problem of conflict, war and terrorism.  A problem that has infested the world since the dawn of mankind and will continue all the time power crazy fanatics roam the earth, retaliation is not the answer it only exacerbates the situation - get shot of one lunatic there is always another waiting in the wings to take over. 

All that can be achieved by spotlighting the Paris atrocity as Islamic fundamentalism is to incite further hatred and discontent.  What is the only effective way to prevent an argument or fight?   Why of course - walk away!  What is it about France that generates such a reaction to terrorist attacks - did people react in the same way when the innocent holidaymakers were mercilessly slaughtered earlier this year on a Tunisian beach (including British nationals), during the same period as a number of innocent people were blown up in a terrorist attack on a Kuwaiti mosque?

IS are not fighting for Islam, for crying out loud they blow up their own people.  They are power crazed fanatics on a reign of terror with no fixed purpose but to destroy innocent lives - not just in France but across the globe.  A lunatic strolls into a school and guns down innocent children, a not infrequent occurrence, does the world then condemn all mentally ill people because of the act of one individual?  No, of course they don't!

The UK establishment (Royalty and secret services included) have strong allies in the Arab states, Israel, the Far East and Africa;  they give top jobs in the government, police, NHS, the media etc. to their allies.  It's akin to a massive game of chess - only problem being that the citizens are the pawns - always were and always will be the victims of the powers that dominate the world.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Hobs on 15.11.15 20:59

The only guaranteed way for a muslim to get into paradise is via martyrdom or dying in childbirth.
All others ways such as being a good and dutiful muslim, charitable deeds and so on are no guarantee.
This explains why muslims committing jihad are strongly supported by their families, even if said family disavow them, distance themselves and  proclaim themselves as modest, non radicalised.

The so called radicalized Muslims are not radicalised at all, they are following the koran to the letter.
Governments and the media won't admit that since they would then have to explain why they are letting in hundreds and thousands of people who want to kill us if we don't convert  to their branch of islam.
Even muslims aren't safe if they are of the 'wrong sect'

Muslims are allowed, nay expected to lie to non muslims if is benefits islam, they are forbidden though from lying to other muslims.

In the beginning when mohammed was a new leader with little power he used diplomacy etc to get what he wanted, as he grew more powerful, he became more agressive and violent till eventually if you are non muslim you either convert or die.

When we here imams quoting verses from the koran saying it is a peaceful religion, they are using his early statements, whereas if you read his later ones it is all about violence and conquest.

It mandates slavery and child marriage even if the child is well under age.
I hear claims that we used to have child marriage which indeed we did, children were betrothed at a young age to unites kingdoms and so on, the proper marriage though was when both were of an age, we, have since then progresed to where someone can marry at 16 with parents consent and 18 without and we have a legal age of consent.

islam though is still living in the 7th century and has never grown or progressed.
Their religion is written in stone and cannot be changed or altered, for to do so would be an insult to their prophet and god.
the rest of the world has pretty much moved forward in understanding and knowledge and will continue to do so  as our religions allow us.

Most religions asks its believers to be good kind people, to love one another and do good deeds and then get to whatever version of heaven they believe in.
Converting people is done peacefully using words and good deeds, violence is frowned upon or barred completely, in islam conversion is at the point of a sword.

How do you deal with a population that is willing to die and take others with them rather than run away to fight another day?
Most of us  don't want to die and our survival instinct kicks in, we are willing to listen and use diplomacy to resolve conflict as the other side is usually the same.

How do you fight a war where its people are happy to don a suicide belt and blow us up as well as themselves.
Who target innocents including children, the elderly and disabled.
Who target people of the same religion though a separate sect and will even blow up their own people if it will take out others they deem infidels.

You cannot negotiate with a  people that want you dead.

There is nothing you can offer them that will make them not want to kill you unless you become a muslim of their sect.

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them.  The two forms are:
 
Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.
 
Kitman - Lying by omission.  An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief." 


The link makes for some interesting reading and does a lot to explain why govermnments and the msm minimise islam in relation to terrorism and terrorist acts
 
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Searcgforthetruth on 15.11.15 23:20

Just watching Fox News for a different perspective on Paris. There was a discussion that France is thinking of invoking Article 5 of the NATO Treaty - Cameron would then not them need another vote in Parliament to attack ISIL as we would be acting under a NATO obligation to defend each other. Time for Cameron to show some leadership and stand shoulder to shoulder with France.

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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Searcgforthetruth on 15.11.15 23:26

Article 5 of the 1949 North Atlantic treaty, Here is the relevant text:

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 16.11.15 7:34

@Searcgforthetruth wrote:Just watching Fox News for a different perspective on Paris. There was a discussion that France is thinking of invoking Article 5 of the NATO Treaty - Cameron would then not them need another vote in Parliament to attack ISIL as we would be acting under a NATO obligation to defend each other. Time for Cameron to show some leadership and stand shoulder to shoulder with France.
Are they going to go for indiscriminate bombing next?

American politicians are already pushing for this because "zero civilian casualties is not working".

I think we should see some facts about ISIL/ISIS first... real ones this time not the Colin Powell at the UN type.

Are they going to bomb the Mosque in Chartres as well? Same logic.

How about confronting the ideology with real debate on television and media without the usual western Islamic "religion of peace" apologists.

How about trying to educate the ignorant Muslims and giving them an excuse to say "hey, I didn't know this... I don't want any part of this".
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by SteveP on 16.11.15 8:21

Wow @ hobs that's some generalisation of my religion and culture !
You know much more than I do if I was a sceptic the words sweeping and generalisation and selective quoting might have come to mind ,sort of like all Americans from the south ride motorbikes or drive pick up trucks with confederate flags belong to the KKK rape little black girls and torture black men.
There's a difference between religion ,culture and ethnic origin until the west stops meddling in cultures ,religions and political ideologies it doesn't agree with ,accept nor understand you will have fanatics who will fight back with whatever means are to hand why oh why can English people never understand that it's not their god given supremacy alongside USA to police those who disagree with them if this country was paradise and people were all well paid,well fed and living in decent accommodation I'd understand it but their not ,the vast majority struggle to pay bills,rent ,mortgage etc and many myself included have yet to put my heating on this year for fear of the bill and I have friends in USA including a kid hit in a hit and run accident who have to have gofundme accounts to pay for treatment as their medical insurance doesn't cover treatment.
Ok you can ban me now as Muslims are clearly unwelcome here and the guy who talked about the prophet pbuh consummating marriage at six mate get help it says more about you than him FYI he married them to unite the tribes and stop war it was not for the reasons you suggest and it's not unlike your 'Lawrence of Arabia' uniting the tribes to fight against your enemies in exchange for statehood which they did and your govt under Balfour ignored that when it was over and carved it up up in the Sykes Picot agreement and gives to France ..leaving the Arabs with nothing and causing Lawrence such grief he became a recluse and died later alone in a cottage a broken man..learn from history for as you reap so shall you sow.
Oh and before I go Muslims aren't ignorant or stupid just trying to keep our head down and keep a roof ..just like Christians,Jews Sikhs and any other.


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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by BlueBag on 16.11.15 8:56

@SteveP wrote:Ok you can ban me now as Muslims are clearly unwelcome here and the guy who talked about the prophet pbuh consummating marriage at six mate get help it says more about you than him FYI he married them to unite the tribes and stop war it was not for the reasons you suggest 
Actually he married her at 6 and consummated when she was 9 according to the Hadith.

That's much better... he did keep his hands off her for three years although she often sat in his lap.

Also Aisha was the daughter of Umm Ruman and Abu Bakr of Mecca, two of Muhammad's most trusted companionsAbu Bakr was the first non-family person to become a Muslim.

Education... education.
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Re: Paris Attacks, Friday 13 Nov 2015 - Bombs and shootings kill 80 in concert hall, dozens more in several other locations - over 200 more injured, many seriously

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.11.15 9:20

@SteveP wrote:Wow @ hobs that's some generalisation of my religion and culture!

SNIPPED

Ok you can ban me now as Muslims are clearly unwelcome here 

...the guy who talked about the prophet pbuh consummating marriage at six - mate get help -
Firstly, I don't suppose for one moment that any member here would want to ban you for being a Muslim.

Secondly, my own faith in Jesus Christ gets criticised here and several members have mocked the Bible in the same way as the Koran is now under attack. Criticism of one's faith is to be expected, I try to provide reasoned replies to the criticisms.
 
Thirdly, IMO most of what Hobs wrote about Islam was perfectly correct. That Islam allows deliberate lying, fox example, is well known, it is justified in order to advance Islam and the dawa of Islam. By contrast, the Bible unequivocally condemns lying from The Ten Commandments onwards.

Fourthly, I specifically said that Muhammed was betrothed to Aysha at SIX but consummated the betrothal at NINE, here are some references that completely back me up:

------------------------------------

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Summary Analysis

According to official Sunni Muslim sources, Muhammad married Aisha when she was around the age of six or seven. This marriage took place three years before Muhammad’s migration to what eventually became known as Medina. Muhammad consummated the marriage to Aisha approximately four years later, or in the second year of his arrival to Medina when the latter was nine years old.

The Muslim sources generally date Muhammad’s migration to Medina (known as the Hijrah) in the year 622-23 AD. And these sources also say that Muhammad was born in the Year of the Elephant, the year 570 AD. This means that Muhammad was fifty years old when he married Aisha, and roughly fifty-four years old when he actually slept with her.

The problem is not merely that Aisha was nine when Muhammad married her, but that Muhammad was a man who was well into his fifties. Muhammad was old enough to be Aisha’s grandfather.

------ 

Marrying a young girl before she reaches the age of adolescence is permitted in sharee'ah; indeed it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.

(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise"

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah has made the 'iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods - because she is young and has not yet reached puberty - three months. This clearly indicates that Allaah has made this a valid marriage.

(b) It was narrated from 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine and she stayed with him for nine years.

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married 'Aa'ishah when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine."

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim; Muslim says 'seven years')

A prominent Salafi Muslim site states:

Firstly:

Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee'ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.

1 - Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise"

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