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Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

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last photo taken on 29 May 2007?

Post by willowthewisp on 12.11.15 14:27

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@willowthewisp wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@Amy Dean wrote:A bit of Amelie's right arm can be seen; no mystery about that.
No mystery at all.

The mystery is why people keep regurgitating this nonsense.

They'll be going on about the black line between Amelies left arm and body next.
I know it has probably been discussed, shadow on Amelie's right arm, but it is clear all other shadows are in the other direction, was there two suns shining on this day?
I cannot fathom what you are talking about.

Very little of Amelie's right arm is visible.

The shadow of her hat encompasses the right side of her body and the top part of her torso.

The sleeve on her left arm casts a shadow on her arm as you would expect.

The shadows on Amelie are even to the untrained eye fully consistent with all the other shadows in the photo, just as the two experts found.

Why do you even speak about 'two suns'?

If you could explain more fully what you mean, that would help us to respond.
Hi Tony,
You have stated the sun was at or near its highest point and according to the picture the sun was directly overhead, casting shadows onto the person's clothing, so how can an arm that is not seen cast a shadow in a different direction, eg the picture would not pick up the shadow?

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.11.15 14:38

@willowthewisp wrote:
Hi Tony,
You have stated the sun was at or near its highest point and according to the picture the sun was directly overhead, casting shadows onto the person's clothing, so how can an arm that is not seen cast a shadow in a different direction, eg the picture would not pick up the shadow?
I assume that you are referring to the shadow that lies partly on Gerry's right leg?

Like I said in my previous post, this shadow is clearly made by Amelie's hat, NOT her right arm.

I have never said the sun was 'directly overhead', by the way.

The group is all more or less facing south.

The sun is also due south.

IIRC the sun would be 72 degrees above (NOT 90 degrees) but would still cast very short shadows.

Every shadow in the picture is consistent with where the sun is.

But don't take my word for it, take the word of Professor H Farid and the other expert who used a variety of forensic techniques to arrive at the same conclusion.

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by HelenMeg on 12.11.15 14:41

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
Some people are interested in testable proof... if you can't provide it than expect to be rebutted.
The entire forum is about testable proof, or perhaps we should, rather, talk about testable evidence.

This is a reminder of the forum's mission statement:

This forum is dedicated to finding the truth about what really happened to Madeleine McCann and why there is a UK government cover up. Members regularly submit evidence to the British and Portuguese police and to Goncalo Amaral. 

It is often said by posters something like "This is only my opinion - and I'm entitled to my opinion".

However, there is only ONE truth about what really happened to Madeleine McCann, and we are much more likely to get there if we sift bad, unevidenced theories from good, evidenced ones.

The problem on this thread is that we have on one side two top photographic experts and an array of others knowledgeable in camera and photoshopping matters who all pronounce the Last Photo as genuine.

(On top of that, we have a great deal of largely circumstantial evidence that it was probably taken on the Sunday).

Ranged against these experts is a small army mostly of amateurs who have come up with an array of dozens of impressions of this or that bit of photoshopping. Verdi provided a list of about 20 photoshopping ideas that people have put forward - but the list is far longer. And equally, the 'photoshoppers' strenuously disagree with each other about which bits of photoshopping are the right ones!

In the poll, this army of amateurs who prefer the 'photoshopping' solution to the claim that the Last Photo is genuine - but not taken on Thursday 3 May -  is about equally divided between those who support Textusa's hypothesis that the McCanns held a photoshoot on Friday 18 May to create the 'Last Photo', and those who disagree with her. 

Given the array of photographic experts who have pronounced the Last Photo is a genuine, unphotoshopped photo, the burden is very much on the photoshopping brigade to come here and present convincing evidence that these top experts are somehow mistaken.

1. OK, so on the side of those who believe the Last Photo is genuine (albeit with EXIF 'Time / Date' data altered) - we have:

"2 top photographic experts and an array of others knowledgeable in camera and photoshopping matters who all pronounce the Last Photo as genuine"

On the side of those who believe it is fake (e.g. a composite of other images / photoshopped ) - we have:
army of amateurs with their opinions and beliefs.

2.So, to try and come to a conclusion on this very significant topic.. why dont we try and condense the information coming from the 'photographic' experts into one post so that we can read why and how they came to their conclusions and their credentials in this field. At the moment we have little info - other than they 'said so'.

Following that we can absorb that information and then, produce another post condensing all the reasons why we believe it is a fake discounting reasons such as 'it looks odd / doesn't look right etc '.

Just a suggestion!!

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by aquila on 12.11.15 14:43

@willowthewisp wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@willowthewisp wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@Amy Dean wrote:A bit of Amelie's right arm can be seen; no mystery about that.
No mystery at all.

The mystery is why people keep regurgitating this nonsense.

They'll be going on about the black line between Amelies left arm and body next.
I know it has probably been discussed, shadow on Amelie's right arm, but it is clear all other shadows are in the other direction, was there two suns shining on this day?
I cannot fathom what you are talking about.

Very little of Amelie's right arm is visible.

The shadow of her hat encompasses the right side of her body and the top part of her torso.

The sleeve on her left arm casts a shadow on her arm as you would expect.

The shadows on Amelie are even to the untrained eye fully consistent with all the other shadows in the photo, just as the two experts found.

Why do you even speak about 'two suns'?

If you could explain more fully what you mean, that would help us to respond.
Hi Tony,
You have stated the Sun was at or near it's highest point and according to the picture the sun was direct overhead,casting shadows onto the persons clothing, so how can an arm that is not seen cast a shadow in a different direction,eg the picture would not pick up the shadow?
Oh Gawd, the dreaded photo-shopping topic again.

What does it matter if the photograph was photo-shopped or even the exif data was altered?

What matters is that this photo was not released immediately. This was the 'last photo' of Madeleine that could prompt sightings. This was the definitive photograph that showed her as she was in PDL (?). It would be the photograph that other holidaymakers or locals may have had on their cameras and someone maybe in the background.

Instead of the immediate release of the 'last photo' there was a photograph of Madeleine in a UK situ released. The 'icon' photo has been consistently used since her disappearance. That is strange enough in itself.

Enough with the crap of shadows and sunlight.

The last photo of Madeleine McCann was not used to find her. Kate McCann's book does not depict the last photo of Madeleine McCann on the front cover.

Ask yourself why there is an iconic photo of a little girl that is completely consistent each time something is published about her. It's not the 'last photo'.
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by bobbin on 12.11.15 14:44

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@willowthewisp wrote:
Hi Tony,
You have stated the sun was at or near its highest point and according to the picture the sun was directly overhead, casting shadows onto the person's clothing, so how can an arm that is not seen cast a shadow in a different direction, eg the picture would not pick up the shadow?
I assume that you are referring to the shadow that lies partly on Gerry's right leg?

Like I said in my previous post, this shadow is clearly made by Amelie's hat, NOT her right arm.

I have never said the sun was 'directly overhead', by the way.

The group is all more or less facing south.

The sun is also due south.

IIRC the sun would be 72 degrees above (NOT 90 degrees) but would still cast very short shadows.

Every shadow in the picture is consistent with where the sun is.

But don't take my word for it, take the word of Professor H Farid and the other expert who used a variety of forensic techniques to arrive at the same conclusion.
quote tony "IIRC the sun would be 72 degrees above (NOT 90 degrees) but would still cast very short shadows."
Tony, look up the meaning of 'very short shadow'. Gerry's long shadow of chin down his T shirt is the very opposite of 'short'. It is long. That's one of the many inconsistencies in this photo make-up.

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by j.rob on 12.11.15 15:06

'j.rob' brought together a great deal of material re Nigel Foster and hinted that there were two quite separate versions of this encounter - Kate McCann's and Nigel Foster's. It was IMO his best contribution to the forum debates. Maybe he will come along and remind us what he said...
------

Well, well, well. Here goes:

So it is on police record that at least one photograph taken by the Foster family during their holiday at OC that week has some members of the McCann party in it:
----- 

"On this date, I can inform that photographs from a CD provided by Leicestershire police were visualised and analysed, these referred to photographs taken by the F***** family during their holidays at the OC between the 28th April and 5th May 2007.

Upon analysing these photos, the result was that there was at least one photograph where some of the elements making up the group of friends of the McCann couple were visualised, nothing relevant being found for the investigation.


Portimao, 23rd May 2007."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FOSTER.htm

--------

Kate, in her book, writes about an alleged encounter between herself and Russell and another holiday maker - Nigel  - (the Nigel Foster who handed in the photos to Leics police?) Kate describes how on Thursday morning she was hanging around on the grassy play area after her tennis lesson watching Gerry on the court and chatting to Russell 'who I'd found there.' She describes how another guest (Nigel) appears with a video camera for record his three year old daughter playing mini-tennis. "He looked a little embarrassed and laughingly remarked to us that filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man." Which Kate then writes lead to a conversation between the three of them about paedophiles.

I have written at length on threads here about how I find Kate's version of this event completely implausible. It simply does not ring true. And if you read both Russell O'Brien's account of this incident in his rogatory and also an account of the incident from Matt Oldfield I do believe in his rogatory you will see that there are different accounts of what happened and who was there. 

In particular Kate McCann's account of the incident in her book differs from Russell's account in his rogatory.

In an early police interview the Portuguese police question Russell about this incident and, even allowing for translation problems the impression is that the police are extremely interested in who exactly was holding the video-recorder. The impression I get is that perhaps Nigel had already spoken to police about the incident and had told them that it had been one of TM who had been holding the camera. And given that Russell is very tall - easily the tallest of the Tapas males (?) then he would be easily identifiable. In the police rogatory Russell appears to get somewhat tied in knots over the video-recording incident in terms of who was holding the video-recorder and who it belonged to. The suggestion being, if I understood the translation right, that it could have been Russell's video-recorder and that he was filming Nigel's daughter playing mini-tennis.

My theory was that, in true Mc style, TM had 'sanitized' a suspicious incidence involving themselves with a video-recorder and had claimed it was fellow holiday maker Nigel who was worried about looking like a dirty old man. Whereas in fact what had happened is that Nigel had approached TM to remonstrate that he did not like they way TM were recording his daughter playing mini-tennis as it was making him uncomfortable. 

So one could theorize that on Thursday morning TM were possibly attempting to film three year old girls playing mini-tennis that were not their own. Which is pretty weird when you think how many of their own children they had with them and how few photos or films of them they had from that week. Why on earth film another man's child? Given the questions about the 'last photo', when it was taken and so on this incident could be of relevance. 

LombardySkeptic started this thread which covers this incident:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10292-re-that-southampton-man-conversation?highlight=Nigel+conversation+about+paedophiles

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by BlueBag on 12.11.15 15:15

@bobbin wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@willowthewisp wrote:
Hi Tony,
You have stated the sun was at or near its highest point and according to the picture the sun was directly overhead, casting shadows onto the person's clothing, so how can an arm that is not seen cast a shadow in a different direction, eg the picture would not pick up the shadow?
I assume that you are referring to the shadow that lies partly on Gerry's right leg?

Like I said in my previous post, this shadow is clearly made by Amelie's hat, NOT her right arm.

I have never said the sun was 'directly overhead', by the way.

The group is all more or less facing south.

The sun is also due south.

IIRC the sun would be 72 degrees above (NOT 90 degrees) but would still cast very short shadows.

Every shadow in the picture is consistent with where the sun is.

But don't take my word for it, take the word of Professor H Farid and the other expert who used a variety of forensic techniques to arrive at the same conclusion.
quote tony "IIRC the sun would be 72 degrees above (NOT 90 degrees) but would still cast very short shadows."
Tony, look up the meaning of 'very short shadow'. Gerry's long shadow of chin down his T shirt is the very opposite of 'short'. It is long. That's one of the many inconsistencies in this photo make-up.
No it isn't.

Use the search function.

There are angles/pictures and everything.

Maybe you already know.
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 15:35

@j.rob wrote:'j.rob' brought together a great deal of material re Nigel Foster and hinted that there were two quite separate versions of this encounter - Kate McCann's and Nigel Foster's. It was IMO his best contribution to the forum debates. Maybe he will come along and remind us what he said...
------

Well, well, well. Here goes:

So it is on police record that at least one photograph taken by the Foster family during their holiday at OC that week has some members of the McCann party in it:
----- 

"On this date, I can inform that photographs from a CD provided by Leicestershire police were visualised and analysed, these referred to photographs taken by the F***** family during their holidays at the OC between the 28th April and 5th May 2007.

Upon analysing these photos, the result was that there was at least one photograph where some of the elements making up the group of friends of the McCann couple were visualised, nothing relevant being found for the investigation.


Portimao, 23rd May 2007."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FOSTER.htm

--------

Kate, in her book, writes about an alleged encounter between herself and Russell and another holiday maker - Nigel  - (the Nigel Foster who handed in the photos to Leics police?) Kate describes how on Thursday morning she was hanging around on the grassy play area after her tennis lesson watching Gerry on the court and chatting to Russell 'who I'd found there.' She describes how another guest (Nigel) appears with a video camera for record his three year old daughter playing mini-tennis. "He looked a little embarrassed and laughingly remarked to us that filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man." Which Kate then writes lead to a conversation between the three of them about paedophiles.

I have written at length on threads here about how I find Kate's version of this event completely implausible. It simply does not ring true. And if you read both Russell O'Brien's account of this incident in his rogatory and also an account of the incident from Matt Oldfield I do believe in his rogatory you will see that there are different accounts of what happened and who was there. 

In particular Kate McCann's account of the incident in her book differs from Russell's account in his rogatory.

In an early police interview the Portuguese police question Russell about this incident and, even allowing for translation problems the impression is that the police are extremely interested in who exactly was holding the video-recorder. The impression I get is that perhaps Nigel had already spoken to police about the incident and had told them that it had been one of TM who had been holding the camera. And given that Russell is very tall - easily the tallest of the Tapas males (?) then he would be easily identifiable. In the police rogatory Russell appears to get somewhat tied in knots over the video-recording incident in terms of who was holding the video-recorder and who it belonged to. The suggestion being, if I understood the translation right, that it could have been Russell's video-recorder and that he was filming Nigel's daughter playing mini-tennis.

My theory was that, in true Mc style, TM had 'sanitized' a suspicious incidence involving themselves with a video-recorder and had claimed it was fellow holiday maker Nigel who was worried about looking like a dirty old man. Whereas in fact what had happened is that Nigel had approached TM to remonstrate that he did not like they way TM were recording his daughter playing mini-tennis as it was making him uncomfortable. 

So one could theorize that on Thursday morning TM were possibly attempting to film three year old girls playing mini-tennis that were not their own. Which is pretty weird when you think how many of their own children they had with them and how few photos or films of them they had from that week. Why on earth film another man's child? Given the questions about the 'last photo', when it was taken and so on this incident could be of relevance. 

LombardySkeptic started this thread which covers this incident:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10292-re-that-southampton-man-conversation?highlight=Nigel+conversation+about+paedophiles
Oh, that is excellent - to be digested at leisure!  It even covers my other bug-bear, the alleged trip to Sagres on 30th April 2007 as reported by the UK press.

I now recall reading about N Foster possibly complaining to members of the McCann group because they appeared to be photographing his child.

thumbsup

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The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by BlueBag on 12.11.15 15:44

If you want to know why the exasperation.... it's because all this crap was dealt with a year ago.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10622-analyzing-position-of-sun-in-last-photo

Including "what's wrong with Gerry's teeth".

Not just that thread either... there are lots of last photo threads.

I'm pretty sure it's the same people repeating the same nonsense.

Where is missbeetle these days?
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by aquila on 12.11.15 15:47

@BlueBag wrote:If you want to know why the exasperation.... it's because all this crap was dealt with a year ago.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10622-analyzing-position-of-sun-in-last-photo

Including "what's wrong with Gerry's teeth".

Not just that thread either... there are lots of last photo threads.

I'm pretty sure it's the same people repeating the same nonsense.

Where is missbeetle these days?
Hanging out over the road I think.
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by garfy on 12.11.15 16:09

@j.rob wrote:'j.rob' brought together a great deal of material re Nigel Foster and hinted that there were two quite separate versions of this encounter - Kate McCann's and Nigel Foster's. It was IMO his best contribution to the forum debates. Maybe he will come along and remind us what he said...
------

Well, well, well. Here goes:

So it is on police record that at least one photograph taken by the Foster family during their holiday at OC that week has some members of the McCann party in it:
----- 

"On this date, I can inform that photographs from a CD provided by Leicestershire police were visualised and analysed, these referred to photographs taken by the F***** family during their holidays at the OC between the 28th April and 5th May 2007.

Upon analysing these photos, the result was that there was at least one photograph where some of the elements making up the group of friends of the McCann couple were visualised, nothing relevant being found for the investigation.


Portimao, 23rd May 2007."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FOSTER.htm

--------

Kate, in her book, writes about an alleged encounter between herself and Russell and another holiday maker - Nigel  - (the Nigel Foster who handed in the photos to Leics police?) Kate describes how on Thursday morning she was hanging around on the grassy play area after her tennis lesson watching Gerry on the court and chatting to Russell 'who I'd found there.' She describes how another guest (Nigel) appears with a video camera for record his three year old daughter playing mini-tennis. "He looked a little embarrassed and laughingly remarked to us that filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man." Which Kate then writes lead to a conversation between the three of them about paedophiles.

I have written at length on threads here about how I find Kate's version of this event completely implausible. It simply does not ring true. And if you read both Russell O'Brien's account of this incident in his rogatory and also an account of the incident from Matt Oldfield I do believe in his rogatory you will see that there are different accounts of what happened and who was there. 

In particular Kate McCann's account of the incident in her book differs from Russell's account in his rogatory.

In an early police interview the Portuguese police question Russell about this incident and, even allowing for translation problems the impression is that the police are extremely interested in who exactly was holding the video-recorder. The impression I get is that perhaps Nigel had already spoken to police about the incident and had told them that it had been one of TM who had been holding the camera. And given that Russell is very tall - easily the tallest of the Tapas males (?) then he would be easily identifiable. In the police rogatory Russell appears to get somewhat tied in knots over the video-recording incident in terms of who was holding the video-recorder and who it belonged to. The suggestion being, if I understood the translation right, that it could have been Russell's video-recorder and that he was filming Nigel's daughter playing mini-tennis.

My theory was that, in true Mc style, TM had 'sanitized' a suspicious incidence involving themselves with a video-recorder and had claimed it was fellow holiday maker Nigel who was worried about looking like a dirty old man. Whereas in fact what had happened is that Nigel had approached TM to remonstrate that he did not like they way TM were recording his daughter playing mini-tennis as it was making him uncomfortable. 

So one could theorize that on Thursday morning TM were possibly attempting to film three year old girls playing mini-tennis that were not their own. Which is pretty weird when you think how many of their own children they had with them and how few photos or films of them they had from that week. Why on earth film another man's child? Given the questions about the 'last photo', when it was taken and so on this incident could be of relevance. 

LombardySkeptic started this thread which covers this incident:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10292-re-that-southampton-man-conversation?highlight=Nigel+conversation+about+paedophiles

very well put j.rob....also good point about the photo.... thumbsup
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by joyce1938 on 12.11.15 16:37

This is not a usual reply, but sort of.  How we hope to make sense of a lot of all that the Mcs and others have to say.  I just feel of late it's almost like it was to give us too much to try to put together and confusing to boot.  How clever would that be seems so many lies, it can't make sense, yet we still hope it will.  Pigs might fly, maybe that's not kind, but we still can't agree a lot of the time, no-one's fault.  Gerry told us straight, CONFUSION IS GOOD.  joyce1938
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by j.rob on 12.11.15 17:37

The possibility that Nuno Lourenco's snap of Krokowski's rented car was re-dated from 3 or 4 May to 29 April, whilst at the same time and the Last Photo was re-dated from 3 May to 29 April, is much much more interesting and I think a much more profitable line of research   



-------


With regard to this observation  that I have snipped from a longer post of Tony's early on in this thread, I cannot help wondering what connections there are between the media reports of the McCanns' visiting Sagres on Monday 30 April I think it was supposed to be (although I think there are conflicting eye-witness accounts of what day they were there - some saying 29th and some later) and the Nuno 'sighting' of the suspicious Krokowski couple. 

Nuno Lourenco reported sighting a suspicious looking couple - later identified as Krokowski and his partner - filming his three year old daughter (who happened to look like Madeleine) on the beach at Sagres on or around this day. 

It has been pointed out that the early efits (or whatever they are called) of Jane Tanner's Tanner-man with black hair over the collar bear a resemblance to Krokowski who was captured on cctv (with his partner) at a restaurant/bar. A strange coincidence perhaps? Or perhaps not.

There are those who think that Nuno's 'sighting' is a fabrication - for whatever reason - and/but it became fodder for the press as it bolstered up the abduction idea.

Given that, despite the press reports, the McCanns or their friends have never admitted going to Sagres at all that week, what is going on here? Were the McCanns  supposed to go but didn't? Or were the media reports of their visiting Sagres also a fabrication, again to bolster the abduction theory (and/or some other reasons)?

What a weird coincidence (and there are so many in this case) that the McCanns themselves later on that week (Tuesday or Thursday depending on different accounts I think) also speak about a video-recording incident which is given a surprising amount of prominence in their rogatories and in Kate's book. A video-recording incidence - involving fellow-holiday maker Nigel and his 3 year old daughter) which appear to be somewhat sensitive and possibly controversial given the inconsistent police statements made by Kate, Russell and Matt. 

Then factor in Kate's alleged cry when she allegedly found Madeleine missing on Thursday evening: "They have taken her." And Kate later on telling social worker Yvette Martin that a couple had taken her child. Which Yvette Martin thought was a strange thing to have said.

How weird. Almost as if a couple (a couple like the Krokoski couple, for instance) were supposed to have taken a child (Madeleine?) earlier on in the week - say on the visit to Sagres? But maybe something had already gone wrong by then? Or the plan sabotaged? Or something. It's just too much of a coincidence to have the Nuno sighting pretty much dovetailing with the media reports of the McCanns visiting Sagres. 

With regards to re-dating of photos from 3rd May to 29th April, it would certainly make more sense for Nuno's photo of Krokowski's car to have been taken at around the time of the alleged sighting  (although his sighting is 29th whereas I thought the media reports of the McCann visit to Sagres stated it was 30th?)

Equally, if, as has been theorized, something had already happened to Madeleine by Thursday 3rd May, and possibly as early even as the 29th or 30th, then it might make more sense to theorize that a photo that is alleged to have been taken on the 3rd was, in fact, taken much earlier.

My brain hurts.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1581p110-the-mccanns-family-trip-to-sagres-30th-april

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10199-fishing-with-a-yacht

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 19:43

@TonyBenntt wrote:

No, you are not completely out on a limb @ Verdi.


I'm mighty pleased to hear it - thought I was wandering into a twilight zone, or verging on conspiraloonacy (whatever that might be).

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 20:10

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:The longevity of this topic and frequent outbreak of war over it is testimony to its significance. It is clearly critical to the case and is one of the best hopes of finding evidence on which someone can act.

The longevity of this topic, I think you will find, is due to a few people who think the naked eye is more reliable than expert testimony - experts with years of experience under their belt in the particular field.  People who, for whatever reason best known to themselves, wish to see things to build on, to add weight to their suspicions - who see this issue to be a potential break through. 

If the 'last photo' is proved to be fake, the house of cards tumbles.

I can't agree.  Unlike some, I have never thought the PJ to be totally incompetent, thus I'm in no doubt that given time they would most definitely have questioned Madeleine's movements during the week in more detail and delved further into the subject of photographs generally.  Alas, that wasn't allowed to happen.  Operation Grange are another matter entirely, I don't believe it to be in their interests to prove any photographs to be fake or adjusted time/date wise.  The prospect of any house of cards tumbling down I consider to be extremely unlikely, if not impossible.

The ferocity of the rebuttals from some quarters is very revealing.

Don't understand what you mean.

It is one of our best chances. Great work CMOMM.

As far as I understand, PeterMac has already taken action in that direction.  IF Operation Grange decline to act on valid information forwarded to them (which appears to be the case), then the chances are very slim.  Don't you think the case would have been solved a very long time ago if Operation Grange were taking evidence, intelligence and auxiliary information - if they weren't working to a specific remit?

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by BlueBag on 12.11.15 20:17

@Verdi wrote:
I can't agree.  Unlike some, I have never thought the PJ to be totally incompetent, thus I'm in no doubt that given time they would most definitely have questioned Madeleine's movements during the week in more detail and delved further into the subject of photographs generally.  Alas, that wasn't allowed to happen. 

Yes indeed.

However... most bizarrely and inexplicably the new suspects were allowed to leave the country only days after serious questioning had started.

I really fail to understand how that was allowed to happen.

Really really fail to understand.
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by HelenMeg on 12.11.15 22:03

@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:The longevity of this topic and frequent outbreak of war over it is testimony to its significance. It is clearly critical to the case and is one of the best hopes of finding evidence on which someone can act.

The longevity of this topic, I think you will find, is due to a few people who think the naked eye is more reliable than expert testimony - experts with years of experience under their belt in the particular field.  People who, for whatever reason best known to themselves, wish to see things to build on, to add weight to their suspicions - who see this issue to be a potential break through. 

If the 'last photo' is proved to be fake, the house of cards tumbles.

I can't agree.  Unlike some, I have never thought the PJ to be totally incompetent, thus I'm in no doubt that given time they would most definitely have questioned Madeleine's movements during the week in more detail and delved further into the subject of photographs generally.  Alas, that wasn't allowed to happen.  Operation Grange are another matter entirely, I don't believe it to be in their interests to prove any photographs to be fake or adjusted time/date wise.  The prospect of any house of cards tumbling down I consider to be extremely unlikely, if not impossible.

The ferocity of the rebuttals from some quarters is very revealing.

Don't understand what you mean.

It is one of our best chances. Great work CMOMM.

As far as I understand, PeterMac has already taken action in that direction.  IF Operation Grange decline to act on valid information forwarded to them (which appears to be the case), then the chances are very slim.  Don't you think the case would have been solved a very long time ago if Operation Grange were taking evidence, intelligence and auxiliary information - if they weren't working to a specific remit?
Out of those who've voted in this poll we are looking at the majority of voters believing the photo is fake. Are we saying that those who believe it is genuine(with EXIF data altered) are right and the majority are wrong? If so, on what grounds? In other words, has this poll helped ... where do we go from here. Do we all agree to disagree

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 22:31

@HelenMeg wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:The longevity of this topic and frequent outbreak of war over it is testimony to its significance. It is clearly critical to the case and is one of the best hopes of finding evidence on which someone can act.

The longevity of this topic, I think you will find, is due to a few people who think the naked eye is more reliable than expert testimony - experts with years of experience under their belt in the particular field.  People who, for whatever reason best known to themselves, wish to see things to build on, to add weight to their suspicions - who see this issue to be a potential break through. 

If the 'last photo' is proved to be fake, the house of cards tumbles.

I can't agree.  Unlike some, I have never thought the PJ to be totally incompetent, thus I'm in no doubt that given time they would most definitely have questioned Madeleine's movements during the week in more detail and delved further into the subject of photographs generally.  Alas, that wasn't allowed to happen.  Operation Grange are another matter entirely, I don't believe it to be in their interests to prove any photographs to be fake or adjusted time/date wise.  The prospect of any house of cards tumbling down I consider to be extremely unlikely, if not impossible.

The ferocity of the rebuttals from some quarters is very revealing.

Don't understand what you mean.

It is one of our best chances. Great work CMOMM.

As far as I understand, PeterMac has already taken action in that direction.  IF Operation Grange decline to act on valid information forwarded to them (which appears to be the case), then the chances are very slim.  Don't you think the case would have been solved a very long time ago if Operation Grange were taking evidence, intelligence and auxiliary information - if they weren't working to a specific remit?
Out of those who've voted in this poll we are looking at the majority of voters believing the photo is fake. Are we saying that those who believe it is genuine(with EXIF data altered) are right and the majority are wrong? If so, on what grounds? In other words, has this poll helped ... where do we go from here. Do we all agree to disagree
I sincerely hope the topic hasn't descended into the realms of I/we are right and you/they are wrong HelenMeg.  The point is that experts in the field of photography and imagery, have scanned the last photograph and concluded that it has not been manipulated in any way.  I most likely haven't read everything that's been opined on the subject but enough to realize that the objections to it's authenticity are proffered without reasonable foundation, nor any explanation as to why this particular photograph would be subjected to manipulation.  Where does it lead?  Where did the various components come from the produce the end result?

Perhaps if members who think the photograph is fake (other than alteration of the time/date) could offer some technical proof or reason why, then it might be open to further discussion.  As it is, the only explanation I've read is that it looks wrong - hardly conclusive I'm sure you agree.  Don't you think if the team were intending to produce a composite photograph to present before the world, they would have been a bit more professional?

However, fitting it in with other areas under investigation, the chances are more in favour of the date and time being altered to place Gerry McCann and Madeleine at the Ocean Club on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May 2007.  This is an easy option that requires little or no particular technical expertise and I think the most feasible.

ETA:  I'm not sure the poll is designed to help anything, I think it's designed to gauge opinion.  As for agreeing to disagree - in an ideal world maybe but judging by histrionics I don't somehow think so.

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Mark Willis on 12.11.15 22:40

My distinguished friend, Mr Verdi,

Please can I have my razor back?

Yours sincerely,

Bill Occam
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 22:42

@Mark Willis wrote:My distinguished friend, Mr Verdi,

Please can I have my razor back?

Yours sincerely,

Bill Occam
Nah - I liked it so much I bought the company..

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.11.15 22:46

@HelenMeg wrote:
Out of those who've voted in this poll we are looking at the majority of voters believing the photo is fake. Are we saying that those who believe it is genuine (with EXIF data altered) are right and the majority are wrong? If so, on what grounds? In other words, has this poll helped ... where do we go from here? Do we all agree to disagree?
@ HelenMeg -  You make a fair point.

The poll is an indication of opinion and by no means proves who is right and who is wrong.

And doesn't in any way determine what the forum must think or anything remotely like it.   

At present (without giving away the exact figures for anyone who has not voted in the poll), the two options which allow for the opinion: 'The Last Photo is photoshopped' have a clear lead over those who maintain it is 'A genuine photo probably taken on the Sunday or Monday'.

You asked: "Where do we go from here? Do we all agree to disagree?"

For my part, where I go from here is to continue to try to persuade the photoshoppers that they are wrong. Quite apart from the fact that those who assert that the Last Photo is genuine have the expert opinion behind them (unless the photoshoppers can match the two experts with a couple of their own - of similar stature), then I think my most powerful arguments are that the photoshoppers (a) simply cannot agree amongst themselves which bits are photoshopped and (b) have come up with several dozen different suggestions for how the photo is photoshopped, which is frankly ridiculous. 

It puts me rather in mind of the hundreds of so-called 'psychics' who descended on this case en masse, each one contending that their impression of where Madeleine was and what happened to her was right, but each impression being different from all the others. Mostly it was stuff like: "I see a cottage, maybe white or with a pinkish aspect, down an unmade country lane, possibly with some trees around it and a hill in the background". The Madeleine Foundation in its heyday had a number of letters just like this

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 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 12.11.15 23:13

I think the biggest issue is that even the experts can't decide what constitutes "Photoshopping"! Fascinating debate here between a 'maverick' expert and other experts including PeterMac's one.

http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/550-Angry-Mob.html

As a layman, I look past the arguments from both sides and look just at the mouse-over comparison picture and for me that powerful image has been changed dramatically.

Also it must be the case that you can't/shouldn't rely on what you see with the eye. Which I guess is why these experts have developed specific software to detect the telltale signs of manipulation.
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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by Verdi on 12.11.15 23:21

Nor does it help things along if members decline to answer specific questions.  By example, I recently asked a member how they know that NALF are the initials of Mr. Foster from Hampshire but whoever didn't respond.

OK I know members aren't obliged to reply but it would be helpful to know the source of their information, otherwise one might be tempted to think they don't have an answer!

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Re: Textusa releases new statement (6 Nov 2015) on 'The Last Photo' - says it is a photoshopped composite of THREE different photographs, two of which were taken on Friday 18 May 2007

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 12.11.15 23:36

@Verdi wrote:Nor does it help things along if members decline to answer specific questions.  By example, I recently asked a member how they know that NALF are the initials of Mr. Foster from Hampshire but whoever didn't respond.

OK I know members aren't obliged to reply but it would be helpful to know the source of their information, otherwise one might be tempted to think they don't have an answer!

I don't "Know" Verdi but wouldn't you agree that it is some coincidence his initials seem to fit nicely? Especially given the time sensitive nature of reviewing the pictures, it makes even more sense to me that the DC would use initials. It may be standard practice for all I know.

Also I had a quick look on FindMyPast and there is one Nigel A L Foster born in 1961. I don't know his DOB so can't say it means anything.
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