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McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 21.11.15 21:01

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:January 2013.  Proceedings halted for 6 months while both parties attempt to reach an out of court settlement.
 Is this strictly accurate, jean-pierre? 

Can you give details of who offered whom an out of court settlement? It's best to be factual, isn't it?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 22.11.15 8:45

@worriedmum wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:January 2013.  Proceedings halted for 6 months while both parties attempt to reach an out of court settlement.
 Is this strictly accurate, jean-pierre? 

Can you give details of who offered whom an out of court settlement? It's best to be factual, isn't it?

WM - Do you have exact details of the negotiations?  No me neither.  big grin

Which party sought time to negotiate out of court settlement cannot be determined from the party requesting a stay in proceedings . 

The only party who can ask the court for a stay in proceedings is the plaintiff (i.e.the McCanns). 

So whether Dr Amaral made the McCanns an offer or whether the McCanns offered a lower figure for a quick (and more certain) settlement cannot be guessed at by the plaintiffs asking the court for a stay to negotiate.

Whichever way it was the parties could not agree and the case proceeded to trial. 

The fact is that the majority of civil cases are settled out of court and parties are strongly urged to try to reach a settlement to reduce expense and valuable court time.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.11.15 9:59

@worriedmum wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:January 2013.  Proceedings halted for 6 months while both parties attempt to reach an out of court settlement.
 Is this strictly accurate, jean-pierre? 

Can you give details of who offered whom an out of court settlement? It's best to be factual, isn't it?
This article on Joana Morais' site http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/01/trial-that-opposes-mccanns-and-goncalo.html

...confirms that there was indeed an adjournment for six months in January 2013 to enable the parties to reach an out-of-court agreement.

Various statements were made to the press at the time confirming that the McCanns asked for the adjournment.

At the time, I spoke to a journalist in very close contact with Goncalo Amaral, a journalist who in the past has asked me for information about the case needed by Amaral's lawyer.

The journalist confirmed to me that the McCanns' lawyers had sent a formal letter to the Court, about two weeks ahead of the trial IIRC, asking for time to try to reach a settlement.

What was so unusual about this is that usually it is the defendant who asks for more time to settle. This time it was the plaintiffs

I asked for the details in writing from the journalist because I planned to (and did) use this information in my libel/contempt of court trial the following month - to prove that no court had yet ruled that the McCanns had been libeled by anyone.    

It was to no avail


ETA:

I have searched my e-mail database and found this e-mail from the journalist sent to me on 24 January 2013:


Mr. Bennett,

As I suppose you already know, the Maddie image mentioned by the Daily Express (the one from Brazil) has taken in Ibiza by Moises Copa (AP)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6256944.stm

By the size and shape of the image the Daily Express received should have been removed from this site
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Mundo/0,,MUL61734-5602,00-MORRE+UM+DOS+RESPONSAVEIS+POR+EXPLOSAO+EM+AEROPORTO+DE+GLASGOW.html

Concerning the article I send you, there is another one published by Hernani Carvalho in a Portuguese magazine that confirms the information that McCann’s asked for a Settlement out of the court.

Best regards

____________________

The amazing symbiosis between bees and flowers:

https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/god-created-plant-pollinator-partners/  

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 22.11.15 14:08

Thank you for the link above to Astros / TV1 article which is a reasonable summary. Although there were actually three delays the first being (as above) the delay where a member of of Dr Amarals lawyers staff was suspected of having 'flu.  

The action starting in June 2009 was concluded on 28th April 2015 when the court reached its verdict.  The appeal to this decision is legally a separate action, (although it is not a retrial or a new trial and new evidence cannot be introduced so it is lined to the original trial.  But the appeal is at the behest of the appellant - Dr Amaral had the choice between accepting the verdict or risking an appeal).    

The original question was whether Dr Amaral's human rights have been breached as a result of the delays in this case.  I would suggest that they have not because

(a) there have been delays occasioned by Dr Amaral or his team outside the control of the court.

(b) the delay to see if an out of court settlement could be reached, whichever party instigated it, is a normal part of the process and strongly encouraged by the courts, and would not count as an excessive delay.  (In the UK this is written into the Civil Procedure Rules (the White Book) and there will be equivalent sets of rules in other EU states.)

(c) 5 years and ten months is not an excessive time for a civil case (were it a criminal trial, and particularly had been held on remand, and the case had dragged on this long, I would heartily agree with you, but not for a civil case).

In conclusion, I really do not see how you can suggest that Dr Amarals right to a fair trial has been breached.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 22.11.15 18:12

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:

(c) 5 years and ten months is not an excessive time for a civil case (were it a criminal trial, and particularly had been held on remand, and the case had dragged on this long, I would heartily agree with you, but not for a civil case).

Could you post up examples of civil cases in Portugal and/or UK that have taken longer than five years?

You've made a point of out of court settlement - the UK Press has most certainly taken advantage of that option in the case of McCann. I tend to think Sr Amaral would quite rightly listen to his Counsel to see what was being placed before him which is the smart move to understand what's critical to the basis of the Plaintiff's case.

Goncalo Amaral chose not to go with a settlement.
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by joyce1938 on 22.11.15 18:24

Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 22.11.15 19:06

@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 22.11.15 19:45

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
Can you say what the speed of resolution would be in this particular case please?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 22.11.15 21:13

@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
Can you say what the speed of resolution would be in this particular case please?
My dear Aquila, who knows?  But if say three months were spent in arguing the toss, a month to draw up a formal agreement and 3 months for the court to ratify the agreement (possibly a touch optimistic) then around 6 months.  Then payment of agreed sum to the McCann fund costs settled and over and done with.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 22.11.15 21:39

But can you explain why would they want it to be 'done and dusted' if they brought the case in the first place, and expected to win, jean-pierre? Or even 'my dear' jean-pierre?


and to quote you in your earlier post,
''How would Dr Amaral be able to claim that his human rights and his 'right to a fair trial" have been breached when most of the delays to the trial have been occasioned by him ''

Did you actually offer proof of your assertion, my dear?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 22.11.15 21:53

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
Can you say what the speed of resolution would be in this particular case please?
My dear Aquila, who knows?  But if say three months were spent in arguing the toss, a month to draw up a formal agreement and 3 months for the court to ratify the agreement (possibly a touch optimistic) then around 6 months.  Then payment of agreed sum to the McCann fund costs settled and over and done with.
So, if that were the case, can you explain why there is a media outlet for the McCanns to express their distress at delays?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 22.11.15 22:10

@worriedmum wrote:But can you explain why would they want it to be 'done and dusted' if they brought the case in the first place, and expected to win, jean-pierre? Or even 'my dear' jean-pierre?


and to quote you in your earlier post,
''How would Dr Amaral be able to claim that his human rights and his 'right to a fair trial" have been breached when most of the delays to the trial have been occasioned by him ''

Did you actually offer proof of your assertion, my dear?

Case concluded, an agreed sum of money paid to the fund (less than the original claim), contribution to costs, and almost certainly a formal agreement not to libel them again.     Done and dusted because there would be no appeal.

Three delays on his side.  Possibly one by the McCanns, in seeking out of court settlement. 

That do you, m'dear big grin

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 23.11.15 12:16

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
As you are now calling people on the forum 'my dear' can I just say, mon cher, jean-pierre (poetry) what Sr. Amaral refused to do, along with his 'co-accused' was to accept an out of court settlement deal. It was offered and rejected. There is still no published evidence of which party offered/was open to the idea of such an out of court settlement - remember there's more than Sr. Amaral and the McCanns in this case, there's a television company.

Sr. Amaral has obviously turned down the offer and yet still no mention of the television company. This trial reported in UK media is all about the McCanns v Goncalo Amaral, yet it isn't.

You've mentioned delays particular to Sr. Amaral - and you've not really done a very good job of things to specifically identify what Sr. Amaral was culpable of in terms of delay tactics. You've also not explained the 'out of court settlement' offer other than in terms of this is what you consider to be normal practice.

Get down to specifics mon cher, jean-pierre.









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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 23.11.15 18:17

@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
As you are now calling people on the forum 'my dear' can I just say, mon cher, jean-pierre (poetry) what Sr. Amaral refused to do, along with his 'co-accused' was to accept an out of court settlement deal. It was offered and rejected. There is still no published evidence of which party offered/was open to the idea of such an out of court settlement - remember there's more than Sr. Amaral and the McCanns in this case, there's a television company.

Sr. Amaral has obviously turned down the offer and yet still no mention of the television company. This trial reported in UK media is all about the McCanns v Goncalo Amaral, yet it isn't.

You've mentioned delays particular to Sr. Amaral - and you've not really done a very good job of things to specifically identify what Sr. Amaral was culpable of in terms of delay tactics. You've also not explained the 'out of court settlement' offer other than in terms of this is what you consider to be normal practice.

Get down to specifics mon cher, jean-pierre.










Yes, quite the poet.  And "cher" is fine.

The verdict as you well know covered all three defendants:

Dr Amaral:    The court ordered a payment of E 250k to each of the the McCanns, and E 68K in interest. 

Publisher:     The court also prohibited any more sales of the book, and gave the publisher 60 days to return all existing copies.

TV1             It also ordered Valentim de Carvalho, who produced a TV documentary based on the book, not to sell any more copies of the film.

And of course he was at liberty to turn down an offer, in the same way as the McCanns were under an implied obligation to explore an out of court settlement.

Re Delays - well that was because he DID introduce a number of delays, including an attempt to exclude Madeleine from the action on the grounds that she was a ward of court.  It was of course his right to use whatever delaying tactics he wanted, but given e was widely tipped to "win" the action I found the delays mildly puzzling - especially sacking his lawyer on the very day of the resumption of the case. 

As faras it being "McCann V Amaral" - why was that odd?  He wrote the book, and made most of the money.  The publisher and TV company were not the author of the book and film that were found by the Portuguese Court to have been damaging.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 24.11.15 7:16

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Yes, it was the Mcs that wanted to settle, I am pretty certain that was the case, it got debated for few days at that time.  Just wish it wasn't so drawn out all the time, I guess Goncalo is used to the system?  joyce1938

Whichever way Joyce, there are plusses and minuses.

For the plaintiffs, there is an advantage of speed of resolution and certainty, because there would be no appeal from an out of court settlement - all done and dusted.  But a lower settlement than they could win in court.

For the respondent there is less advantage.  Unless the figure offered is lower than the judge is likely to award on losing the case.   There would be no appeal. So the settlement figure would need to be a substantial discount to make it worth considering.  I am not at all surprised that Dr Amaral chose to take his chance with the court.
As you are now calling people on the forum 'my dear' can I just say, mon cher, jean-pierre (poetry) what Sr. Amaral refused to do, along with his 'co-accused' was to accept an out of court settlement deal. It was offered and rejected. There is still no published evidence of which party offered/was open to the idea of such an out of court settlement - remember there's more than Sr. Amaral and the McCanns in this case, there's a television company.

Sr. Amaral has obviously turned down the offer and yet still no mention of the television company. This trial reported in UK media is all about the McCanns v Goncalo Amaral, yet it isn't.

You've mentioned delays particular to Sr. Amaral - and you've not really done a very good job of things to specifically identify what Sr. Amaral was culpable of in terms of delay tactics. You've also not explained the 'out of court settlement' offer other than in terms of this is what you consider to be normal practice.

Get down to specifics mon cher, jean-pierre.










Yes, quite the poet.  And "cher" is fine.

The verdict as you well know covered all three defendants:

Dr Amaral:    The court ordered a payment of E 250k to each of the the McCanns, and E 68K in interest. 

Publisher:     The court also prohibited any more sales of the book, and gave the publisher 60 days to return all existing copies.

TV1             It also ordered Valentim de Carvalho, who produced a TV documentary based on the book, not to sell any more copies of the film.

And of course he was at liberty to turn down an offer, in the same way as the McCanns were under an implied obligation to explore an out of court settlement.

Re Delays - well that was because he DID introduce a number of delays, including an attempt to exclude Madeleine from the action on the grounds that she was a ward of court.  It was of course his right to use whatever delaying tactics he wanted, but given e was widely tipped to "win" the action I found the delays mildly puzzling - especially sacking his lawyer on the very day of the resumption of the case. 

As faras it being "McCann V Amaral" - why was that odd?  He wrote the book, and made most of the money.  The publisher and TV company were not the author of the book and film that were found by the Portuguese Court to have been damaging.
Good morning jp,

I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of addressing your post incrementally.

I've underlined and highlighted in red the first point I hope you can perhaps explain.

Why would a Portuguese court attach 68k interest on a current verdict? What's that all about?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 24.11.15 10:45

And good morning to you Aquila.

I do apologise - the amount of interest was actually set at E 106k.

This is because it is normal practice for a court to add interest to a damages award from the time of the original action.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by aquila on 24.11.15 10:48

@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:And good morning to you Aquila.

I do apologise - the amount of interest was actually set at E 106k.

This is because it is normal practice for a court to add interest to a damages award from the time of the original action.
Oh come on...you really have to do better than that mon cher.

Please also explain how 106k euros in intererest could possibly correlate to the frozen assets of the alleged income of Goncalo Amaral's book when his income from the book was seized?

The Madeleine Fund with all its millions hasn't amassed interest anywhere near that sum.
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 24.11.15 11:48

@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:And good morning to you Aquila.

I do apologise - the amount of interest was actually set at E 106k.

This is because it is normal practice for a court to add interest to a damages award from the time of the original action.
Oh come on...you really have to do better than that mon cher.

Please also explain how 106k euros in intererest could possibly correlate to the frozen assets of the alleged income of Goncalo Amaral's book when his income from the book was seized?

The Madeleine Fund with all its millions hasn't amassed interest anywhere near that sum.

The courts are under an obligation to act fairly.  This means that the rate of interest used in cases such as this should neither penalise the respondant, nor reward the claimant.

The maximum rate that the Portuguese court can award is actually 8% per annum simple (in common with most other EU states).  Had this rate been applied, the interest would have been E 230,000. 

So in this context E 106000 is pretty fair (works out at 3.68% per annum simple, or 3.4% per aanum compound)

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 24.11.15 12:05

@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:Monday 16th June 2014.  Dr Amaral announced to the court on the day of the trial that he had sacked his lawyer Vitor Santos Olivera and applied for the case to be adjourned.

Do I need to go on?
Please give a comprehensive list of all delays to the trial. This would help everyone.
Have we had this list yet, please jean-pierre?

Also, can you tell me what point you are trying to make?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 24.11.15 12:14

@worriedmum wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@jean-pierre.t50 wrote:Monday 16th June 2014.  Dr Amaral announced to the court on the day of the trial that he had sacked his lawyer Vitor Santos Olivera and applied for the case to be adjourned.

Do I need to go on?
Please give a comprehensive list of all delays to the trial. This would help everyone.
Have we had this list yet, please jean-pierre?

Also, can you tell me what point you are trying to make?

@ WM

Three.  In posts up thread.

TB suggested that Dr Amaral could bring an action in the ECHR for being denied right to a fair trial.  I am merely arguing that he could not.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 24.11.15 12:24

Okay, I have just read where Tony says the trial has taken six years five months.

Amaral sacked his lawyer. He wanted clarification about Madeleine's status as a ward of court. His lawyer was ill.


Have you added up these 'delays'? Would the ECHR expect a defendant to be inactive and non-responsive for the duration of a case in order for their submission to it to be considered valid?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 24.11.15 12:35

@worriedmum wrote:Okay, I have just read where Tony says the trial has taken six years five months.

Amaral sacked his lawyer. He wanted clarification about Madeleine's status as a ward of court. His lawyer was ill.


Have you added up these 'delays'? Would the ECHR expect a defendant to be inactive and non-responsive for the duration of a case in order for their submission to it to be considered valid?

If he was going to claim that his right to a fair trial had been breached, then before considering the case the ECHR would consider whether the length of time for the trial had been excessive - I make it 5 years and 10 months. 

And whether the claimant had contributed to the delays, causing adjournments for reasons outside the control of the court.  I would suggest that he did contribute to the delays and therefore it is unlikely that he would even be able to bring a claim to the court.

Looking at the facts dispassionately, I cannot see how he could have a valid claim that his rights had been breached, but maybe you can see an alternative viewpoint.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 24.11.15 13:14

jean-pierre quote ''And whether the claimant had contributed to the delays, causing adjournments for reasons outside the control of the court.  I would suggest that he did contribute to the delays and therefore it is unlikely that he would even be able to bring a claim to the court.

Looking at the facts dispassionately, I cannot see how he could have a valid claim that his rights had been breached, but maybe you can see an alternative viewpoint.''unquote

How would you describe illness ?
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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by jean-pierre.t50 on 24.11.15 14:04

@worriedmum wrote:jean-pierre quote ''And whether the claimant had contributed to the delays, causing adjournments for reasons outside the control of the court.  I would suggest that he did contribute to the delays and therefore it is unlikely that he would even be able to bring a claim to the court.

Looking at the facts dispassionately, I cannot see how he could have a valid claim that his rights had been breached, but maybe you can see an alternative viewpoint.''unquote

How would you describe illness ?

I am not going to drawn on commenting on the reasons for the delay.  And not really relevant to this argument  - which is whether Dr Amaral would have a valid claim in the ECHR that Portugal has breached his right to a fair trial. 

Both illnesses caused delays to the proceedings which were outwith the control of the Portuguese Courts.    It was just happestance, but it did extend the time of the proceedings.

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Re: McCanns demand Amaral divorce to be rewarded

Post by worriedmum on 24.11.15 14:44

But are you still including illness as 'a delay', my dear?

quote '' I would suggest that he did contribute to the delays and therefore it is unlikely that he would even be able to bring a claim to the court.''

Five years seems like a long time to me...
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