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If Madeleine died, when did she die?

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If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 20.10.15 20:03

Lizzy Hideho Taylor
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‎HiDeHo CONTROVERSY of Madeleine McCann
23 hrs ·



I CHALLENGE anyone to find a statement that could be considered PROOF that Madeleine was alive during the week... Was Madeleine seen after SUNDAY?

I did not come to the conclusion that something may have happened to her earlier in the week on a whim... I discovered some MAJOR discrepancies started happening on Tuesday and researched all the statements to try to pinpoint the day she was last seen... SUNDAY LUNCHTIME!

I have TWO VERY LONG threads collating some of the research. I don't 'guess' I worked hard to try to find ANYTHING that I considered proof... In 6 years or more, I have NEVER found anything...

Note: It doesn't mean she wasn't seen, but there is nothing to prove she was!

1) Title: People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
http://forum4.aimoo.com/madeleinemccanncontroversy/WELCOME-to-HDH-Controversy-Info/People-that-saw-Madeleine-during-the-holiday-1-2344234.html

2) Title: Did ANYONE see Madeleine during the holiday?
http://forum4.aimoo.com/madeleinemccanncontroversy/category/Did-ANYONE-see-Madeleine-during-the-holiday-1-2344239.html

https://www.facebook.com/groups/HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMadeleineMcCann/permalink/527143374108823/

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11921-was-madeleine-seen-after-sunday-no-credible-evidence-that-she-was-new-article-by-hideho-26-sep-2015
---------------------

Courtesy of Tania Cadogan (Hobs)

What I believe may have happened to Maddie McCann
I believe that Maddie died sometime during the vacation before Thurs may 3rd.
That cadaverine was found behind the sofa means she lay there for at least 90 Min's if she died in the apartment since that is how long (depending on the manner of death and the environmental conditions - temp, humidity etc)
This would blow away their claims of 30 min checks on the children that night since they clearly didn't notice her missing for at least 90 Min's.
Given also the fact the apartment was almost forensically cleaned, to the extent there was little evidence there were 3 children present and we all know how wet and sticky children can be especially at their ages, there was little to no DNA that Maddie was ever present.
Forensics look for what is there that shouldn't be and, just as importantly, what isn't there that should be.
This tells me that time had to be taken to clean the apartment, something not possible in the time frames given for Thurs, May 3rd.
This then tells me Maddie died sometime earlier in the week.
Looking at the statements and how much is written concerning each day of the trip, I and others have noticed there seems to be a lot missing from one day of the week (it might be the Mon or Tues, i can't recall off the top of my head)
This is noted in all the statements from the group.
We go from quite detailed to obfuscation and i can't remembers, which makes the day sensitive and thus requiring further information as to why the sensitivity.
If she died much earlier in the week as is probable, then there is plenty of time for the clean up, laundering and hiding of the body.
Think about this for a moment.
Thursday was the very last night they could have had the abduction, since on Friday they would be on their way home.
They would not have announced it earlier since they needed time for the cleanup, sorting out time lines and concealing Maddie's body.
Also, since this is the mccanns and chums, why spoil a good vacation by calling out the faked abduction any earlier?
Thus Thursday was the only day they could have used.
They knew they would have to stay in Portugal, the interviews by the PJ, the alleged searching plus the free accommodation for desperate ' innocent' parents and it also meant they could fly family and friends out for a freebie as well under the guise of helping and support.
Now, Why did the mccanns act the way they did?
Innocents parents act a specific and expected way.
Guilty parents act a specific and expected way (as in unexpected for innocent parents)
The two are mutually exclusive.
Innocent parents, had there been an accident, would have called 911 even, if she was long dead.
The parents are in denial and will always hope for a miracle.
Even though they are doctors, they would have still called 911 simply because a hospital has the equipment and staff, something the parents and chums didn't have.
The fact they didn't call 911 means that there was something they could not explain away as accidental.
If they found her dead, there was evidence that could not be explained away as accidental.
This could be current injuries, old and healing injuries, evidence of sedation (especially long term sedation - think Shannon Mathews and the hair tests) and signs of sexual injuries and abuse either old or new.
If injuries then if old, medical records would show if she had been treated in hospital or by a GP.
If signs of long term drugs, then medical records would indicate if they had been prescribed and who by.
Sexual injuries would result in a lot of darn awkward questions as to who had access to the children and when, any criminal records or history if not charged)
If it had been, for example, drug ingestion then they could have claimed she found the 'candy' and ate it and they didn't notice and only realised when they found her unresponsive or dead the next day.
This though would have meant them calling 911 as would be expected, since they didn't know or hear anything and thus could not have been charged.
If she had fallen and banged her head and died, again they could have claimed to be sleeping the sleep of the intoxicated and only found her the next morning dead behind the sofa.
Again the expected would be they called 911, since they didn't know or hear anything and thus could not have been charged
They didn't call 911 so this begs the question why not?
What was done that they could not explain it away as an accident either falling whilst they were asleep or eating medication again whilst they were asleep.?
The obvious conclusion is that they could not allow an autopsy because of what would be revealed.
Evidence of physical injuries, sedation or sexual abuse would result in arrest and prosecution since none could be explained away.
This would also account for why the medical records were not released.
Evidence of injuries, UTI's etc and no visits to the hospital or GP.
The GMC would also be involved if they were self medicating and self prescribing.
If sexual abuse was present (likely the most obvious reason) then it points straight to gerry and also to the men of the tapas group and, given the previous statements from the Dr's Gaspar, david payne would be high on the list as well as matthew oldfield since he too checked on the children that Thurs. night (allegedly)
If it was recent then they could have blamed the paedophile abductor if Maddie had been found within days and, again, dependant on the condition of the body.
If the injuries were old and Maddie was found within a few days, again it points straight to gerry and anyone who had access to the children.
It would not account for a paedophile abductor since the injuries would be older than the timeline could account for.
Kate introduced the word MURDER when using the process of free editing.
Words are thought a microsecond before being spoken.
MURDER is what was at the forefront of kate's mind when she spoke.
This then precludes an accidental death, otherwise she would have said accidental death or even death.
Daily Mirror Interview.
Quote:
"They want me to lie - I'm being framed.
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming US
It is worth noting she takes ownership of lying and being framed ( the assumption is by the police but she doesn't tell us the police want her to lie or to frame her.
She could be referring to the members of the group including gerry)
The pronoun US shows unity and shared cooperation, often found when the guilty want to minimise their own role in the crime and spread the guilt - ask anyone with children and teenagers and the ever popular, everyone else was doing it as well excuse #1)
Both kate and gerry and even clarrie have told us Maddie is dead, though not how or at whose hand, that I Can see, although the tapas group have indicated Maddie was bumped on the head (an active action, something done deliberately as opposed to having bumped her head which is passive and done accidentally)
They also leaked that there were several doctors in the group who could have resuscitated her.
This then indicates a violent action occurred, something that could not be explained away such as her falling and bumping her head such as off the sofa.
This would lead me to ask where the injury was, that it could not be explained away as an accident.
This would include things such as finger marks (remember the bruises on kate's arm) jewellery marks, the location of the injury etc.
Perhaps even to multiple injuries perhaps caused when someone loses their temper and beats the victim.
They may not have set out to kill the victim, they just couldn't stop themselves until they either exhausted themselves or were pulled away by someone (again the bruises on kate's arm and wrist)
Whatever the cause, whoever did it, the parents could not allow an autopsy to be performed because of the consequences to themselves.
If it was a member of the group, why would they not point the finger?
Their daughter killed by a family friend.
The guilt would lie solely with the guilty person not the parent.
They would have sympathy and even donations for the funeral.
Unless, of course they knew about said friend's 'little peccadilloes' in which case questions would be asked as to how much the knew, and why they allowed said person access to their children and then an investigation into whether they themselves had 'little peccadilloes'.
There is also the risk the guilty person would drop them in it as well, on the grounds of if I am going down, I am taking everyone else with me.
There is a huge secret being hidden, swinging it is not since no one cares what you do with your sex lives if it is legal and consensual, although you may find your friends who aren't into each other putting a lot of distance between them and you (and a good many more introducing themselves)

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11615-hobs-theory-what-i-believe-may-have-happened-to-maddie-mccann


Goncalo Amaral in 'The Truth of a Lie' thought that Madeleine died in an accident after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May. But HideHo and Hobs have recently advanced sound reasons for suggesting that something serious happened to her much earlier in the week. These two posts have attracted quite a lot of interest, so I'm opening up this big subject for discussion in the 'Debate' section.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by BlueBag on 20.10.15 20:08

I think there is a possibility that the reason Kate slept in the children's bedroom one (or two) nights before is because she was keeping an eye on a poorly Madeleine.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by NickE on 20.10.15 21:55

Sometime between Sunday night to Monday morning --->>The "forgotten" Monday and phone silence--->>Murat in hurry to pdl....unt zu weiter.
IMO.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 20.10.15 23:22

@NickE wrote:Sometime between Sunday night to Monday morning --->>The "forgotten" Monday and phone silence--->>Murat in hurry to pdl....unt zu weiter.
IMO.
'The night we found her'.

Sunday night/Monday morning?

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by sharonl on 20.10.15 23:53

When the McCanns behaviour turned odd.

Leaving 5a by different doors
Breakfast in the own apartment - not out
Lunch in their own apartment - not at the nearby Paynes' with the rest of the group
Keeping the shutters in the kids room closed all day (despite it being chilly at night & the room would benefit from some daytime heat)
Not taking the kids out - possibly avoiding being seen as a family of only four

What really happened here?
The row between Gerry and Kate
The broken shutters in their room
The broken bed
Kates' Bruises

Time of death? - possibly between teatime and bed time on Sunday 29th.

I am looking for a quote by Kate where she states that at bedtime, Madeleine would not come inside and liked to play for time with a game of hide n seek.  This is just something that I would like to check out, does anyone remember this or have a link to it?

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 21.10.15 0:14

@sharonl wrote:...
Keeping the shutters in the kids room closed all day (despite it being chilly at night & the room would benefit from some daytime heat)
...
You don't get heat in a north facing bedroom in Luz in early May of any year.  The sun is to the south, and even in Portugal, early spring is asking a bit re daytime heat.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by sharonl on 21.10.15 8:17

Elça Craig wrote:
@sharonl wrote:...
Keeping the shutters in the kids room closed all day (despite it being chilly at night & the room would benefit from some daytime heat)
...
You don't get heat in a north facing bedroom in Luz in early May of any year.  The sun is to the south, and even in Portugal, early spring is asking a bit re daytime heat.

Good point

According to Kate, that room wasn't used during the day but they kept the shutters closed to avoid the room becoming overheated.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by aiyoyo on 21.10.15 9:35

@sharonl wrote:When the McCanns behaviour turned odd.

Leaving 5a by different doors
Breakfast in the own apartment - not out
Lunch in their own apartment - not at the nearby Paynes' with the rest of the group
Keeping the shutters in the kids room closed all day (despite it being chilly at night & the room would benefit from some daytime heat)
Not taking the kids out - possibly avoiding being seen as a family of only four

What really happened here?
The row between Gerry and Kate
The broken shutters in their room
The broken bed
Kates' Bruises

Time of death? - possibly between teatime and bed time on Sunday 29th.

I am looking for a quote by Kate where she states that at bedtime, Madeleine would not come inside and liked to play for time with a game of hide n seek.  This is just something that I would like to check out, does anyone remember this or have a link to it?

Leaving by different doors may just  be their evolving changing story to the Police, no proof they did that, just their say so.

Breakfasting on their own could mean economy (mean or scant) and convenience purpose instead of dragging three children to breakfast, getting them ready and all that.

If something happened to her so early into the holiday wouldn't the group friends ask about Madeleine when they didn't see her at tea time, or why couldn't the Mcs ask for help at that stage if something happened to Madeleine as in hurt, sick but not death. They could even take her to the hospital and explain their way out.

If she died earlier than 3rd it would have to be a day before 2nd/3rd midnight border time and they used the next day to do the necessary, then the charade at on that night.

Just my opinion.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Nina on 21.10.15 10:06

@sharonl wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:
@sharonl wrote:...
Keeping the shutters in the kids room closed all day (despite it being chilly at night & the room would benefit from some daytime heat)
...
You don't get heat in a north facing bedroom in Luz in early May of any year.  The sun is to the south, and even in Portugal, early spring is asking a bit re daytime heat.

Good point

According to Kate, that room wasn't used during the day but they kept the shutters closed to avoid the room becoming overheated.
Overheated  or not, a bedroom with 2  children still requiring nappies at night would benefit from an airing I would say.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by j.rob on 21.10.15 10:50

According to Kate in her book the whole family (along with all the other Tapas families I think) ate at Millennium on Saturday night. And the reason they they booked the Tapas for the adults every night after that was because it was a long trek to take the children to the Millennium for an evening meal when they were already tired. 

So if it is true that the whole McCann family including Madeleine ate at the Millennium that Saturday night there would most definitely be some kind of evidence that the McCann family of two adults and three children were seated at a table in Millennium that night. The waiting staff, in particular, might remember some of the group especially the children if they had helped with high chairs/ colouring-in sheets maybe to stop the children getting bored. 

There might be a table booking - even if the booking was only made when they arrived en masse - a waiter still has to assign the group a table or several tables seeing as the group was so large.

There would be a restaurant till receipt for the family. A record somewhere of what was ordered. They would have needed high chairs which would have to have been brought over for the twins. Madeleine would almost definitely have wanted to sit next to her friend Ella and other children in the group who were her age or she was friendly with. There is usually quite a palaver getting everyone seated in terms of where adults and children sit.

The first night of a holiday everyone - even if tired - is in quite high spirits and you tend to be quite inquisitive about what are going to be your surroundings for the next week. As the first night is usually novel, you tend to remember what happened better before you slip into a routine. This would apply to eye-witnesses too. 

Both adults and children in that group as well as other eye-witnesses in the restaurant such as other holiday-makers, waiters and maybe other OC staff would have some recollection of such a big group. And also I think the McCanns and their friends claimed to have met some of the holiday makers on the flight - Jez Wilkins perhaps did they say (although I am sure they knew him and some other guests before that holiday.)

Sometimes also on the first evening of the holiday the staff, nannies and sports' instructors come around the tables introducing themselves, pointing out what is on offer and maybe even taking bookings. I know there was a welcome meeting too earlier which Kate writes in her book that she was at with Madeleine (and one assumes the others but I'm not sure.) But other staff could still have been present at that dinner. Gerry was pretty gregarious, from the sounds of it, so may have stood out for that reason.

Kate records that both herself and Madeleine were still shivering at the welcome meeting as she had been swimming with Madeleine on Saturday afternoon. I find the inclusion of this swimming episode - whether or not it took place - intriguing. The water, as Kate wrote, was freezing which it would be in the Algarve at that time of year. A child of nearly four would probably, at most, just jump in once and that would be that. More likely to just dabble toes in. There is always a reason for everything that Kate includes in her book. Why did she include this cameo? There is no record of what Gerry and the twins were doing when this swimming allegedly took place. No photos of this episode. Although in her book Kate does write that a father and son were watching them nearby from a sun lounger. Did they really go swimming? Were Kate and Madeleine shivering (with cold) at the welcome meeting? I am convinced there is something sensitive in this. (And in actual fact in one of the Crimewatch programmes  there is a reconstruction of this very episode showing a Madeleine look-alike running across the OC grounds towards the swimming pool in a costume and wearing arm-bands. I think this whole episode - whether or not it took place - holds some significance.

But back to the Millennium restaurant that first evening.  There could even be some cctv footage of the group such as there is footage of the Tapas group (without the McCanns) at the beach-side  restaurant- Paradiso? -  on Thursday early evening, I do believe. (This suggests to me - given the remarkable lack of photos and footage of TM from that week - that the Tapas were determined that they had an alibi for where they were and what they were doing late afternoon/early evening on that fateful Thursday which suggests that this particular period of time on Thursday 3rd May is highly sensitive - maybe when a body was removed or transferred somewhere - conveniently the adult males play tennis a bit later that evening which allows for quite a bit of coming and going with, possibly, a large sports bag, say.)

On Sunday morning did they again all go up to the Millennium for breakfast? I got rid of my copy of Kate's book as I couldn't stand the sight of it any more so I can't double-check. Again, if they went to Millennium for breakfast there would be a record of this and eye-witnesses would have seen them. Or was it Sunday morning that Gerry went to get some things for breakfast so they could eat in the apartment? Did they then eat breakfast at the apartment every morning? 

I think Kate then says that they all had lunch in the Paynes' apartment on Sunday. Again the children in the group would remember whether or not Madeleine was there. Ella in particular would know and remember whether her friend Madeleine was there. They would have had to find seats and plates for everyone and it would have been quite chaotic, I would imagine, with such a large group.Again, this would be a memorable occasion because it is the start of the holiday. A day different to any other. The first lunch of the holiday. The only lunch - allegedly - in which the McCanns did not eat in their apartment. The details would stick in people's minds to the extent of exactly who was there and what they ate. The Paynes would have had to go out on Sunday morning and buy provisions for lunch. Maybe there were some treats for the children. And so on.

After that the McCanns I think always had breakfast AND lunch in their apartment. Which is highly suggestive to me that "something" had already happened by Monday morning. There is no way you would chose to have both breakfast and lunch in an apartment with three children under four if you also had the choice of eating out and bearing in mind that breakfast was included in the price.

As anyone who has had children knows, children of this age are usually bouncing off the walls by 7.30am. Breakfast tends to be protracted, noisy and extremely messy. I could understand either Kate or Gerry not wanting to take both the twins up to Millennium every morning, maybe. But to have to self-cater two meals a day in a small apartment for three children under four every day? You would all be climbing up the walls with the mess, noise and general chaos. And Kate and Gerry like their money's worth. You get a huge buffet breakfast at Mark Warner at which people - including children - tend to lay into the spread as if it is their last meal! 

Surely a wee Scotsman like Gerry would be relishing his all-included Full English every morning! Set him up for a day of tennis and tapas, surely? Much more satisfying than toast and sugar-puffs in a cramped apartment for three under-four year olds?

Such is the lure of the buffet meal - you tend to stock-pile your plate. And if you are the thrifty type you might be inclined to stuff a few rolls and slices of cheese into your bag so you don't have to fork out for lunch and get all your food that week included in the price! I would have though that would be quite up the Mc street.

There is no way Madeleine would have wanted to be confined to the apartment for two meals of the day while her buddies and the other children were all in a big group at Millennium or elsewhere. If it had been a 'normal' week another of the Tapas adults would have dropped by their apartment and offered to take Madeleine up to the Millennium for breakfast. And also offered for Madeleine to come over for lunch.

So I go for something going wrong between Sunday afternoon and Monday morning. This fits in with Murat's last minute flight booking which I think was Monday evening? There is a lack of detail for what the McCanns' did during the day on Monday which suggests that a lot of presumably panicky last-minute plans were being made. Including calling in Murat to help out, imo. So I suspect Monday all hell was breaking loose. Murat arrives in the early hours of Tuesday morning. Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday an action-plan is put together. Thursday late afternoon/early evening is a highly sensitive time what with the Paradiso cctv providing an alibi for the Tapas. And the David Payne alleged visit to the McCann apartment. And the mens' social tennis.

However careful TM were to conceal what was really going on, they were in a holiday resort surrounded by other people and they also had two other children plus their friends' children who would have noticed if and when Madeleine was not around. What excuse were they giving to Madeleine's siblings and their friends' children? If, as has been theorized, another child was being passed off as Madeleine in the creche, then surely the other Tapas children would notice it was not Madeleine McCann?

I still believe that someone or several people got wind that something was gravely amiss that week and pulled the rug from under TM at the very last minute leading to the unjemmied shutters and the bodge-up over the timelines.

If the plan was a simulated abduction of a live child and - due to the "disaster" it morphed into a simulated abduction of a dead child, I can imagine that there might be some key players who would want "out". 

I really do wonder about the conversation between Jez Wilkins and Gerry McCann at around 9.15pm that evening. I doubt it was a relaxed affair. 

Purely hypothetical scenario of course:

Gerry: "Err.....there's been a bit of a glitch. But if you don't mind lending me your pram I think we might be able to get away with it and get The Fund off the ground."

Jez: "Err.....what sort of glitch?"

Gerry: "It could have happened to anyone. We were just really unlucky."

Jez: "Hmmmm......."

After this alleged cozy little encounter all hell breaks loose with the first cries of an abduction and general commotion as early as 9.15pm. Certainly many eye-witnesses report hearing a commotion about a child missing well before 10pm. The time-lines are now in total disarray.

Despite the FACT that Kate claims she did not discover that Madeleine was missing until 10pm. And therefore the alarm could not possibly have been raised until just after 10pm.

The time-lines along with the un-jemmied shutters are the give-away.

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Re:If Madeleine died, when?

Post by willowthewisp on 21.10.15 12:21

@Ray_Sneek wrote:
@NickE wrote:Sometime between Sunday night to Monday morning --->>The "forgotten" Monday and phone silence--->>Murat in hurry to pdl....unt zu weiter.
IMO.
'The night we found her'.

Sunday night/Monday morning?
Nice try to divert attention away from the subject,Ray Sneek?

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Hobs on 21.10.15 14:48

Looking at the photo of the childrens bedroom, why did kate claim Maddie had been put to bed in the bed by the door, the bed that was clearly still made up and not slept in, when, the bed by the window was a bed that had been clearly slept in?

The expected would have been Maddie was asleep in the bed by the window and had been abducted from selfsame bed, see how rumpled and messed up it is?

Perhaps the bed under the window was messed up because payne visited for 30 mins and kate was wrapped in a towel having just got out the shower (payne not having noticed said towel)  whilst kate claimed it was for 30 seconds. and then kate having another bath/shower when gerry arrived back at the apartment?

Were there in fact certain shenanigans which took place that kate didn't want made public, samples from said bed which would prove certain shenanigans having taken place?

Why the need to have Maddie in the bed by the door which had clearly not been slept in, rather than the bed under the window which had clearly been slept in?

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by NickE on 21.10.15 17:21

@Ray_Sneek wrote:
@NickE wrote:Sometime between Sunday night to Monday morning --->>The "forgotten" Monday and phone silence--->>Murat in hurry to pdl....unt zu weiter.
IMO.
'The night we found her'.

Sunday night/Monday morning?
Yes,and the CEOP April 30-debacle. 
There is no record regarding what time the twins were picked up from creche that day.

Sagres?
Yes?
No?


Gerry´s statement 10 May 2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm



----- The following day (Sunday) the children woke up at 08h00, he and his wife having woken up at 07h30. They dressed and about 08h40 left the apartment going to the MILLENIUM restaurant, once more on foot and by the same route as the previous night, but without the mistake referred to previously, arriving there at 08h45/09h00. The group did not all arrive at the same time, rather in a phased manner, because they were not all seated at the same table.
----- He thinks that MO and wife RMO did not take breakfast due to the former having spent a bad night with vomiting and diarrhoea. At breakfast the children sat at the same table among the adults, it finished at 09h25.
----- The deponent, his wife and three children went to the OCEAN CLUB by the same route where they arrived at 09h40, the deponent having entered the apartment by the main door, which was locked, collecting a bag with clothing and creams for the children [then] going inside the resort area. The twins stayed at the creche next to the TAPAS, which was for children of two years of age, and then he and KATE took MADELEINE to the other creche for older children situated on the 1st floor at the main reception of the resort, arriving there at 09h50. Besides MADELEINE, only E***, daughter of JANE and RUSSELL went to the same creche. The remaining children being very young stayed at the creche next to the TAPAS.
----- Again she went on foot, leaving the secondary reception she turned right, went down the street passing the supermarket, turning left passing the main reception. After putting the children in their creches they went to the supermarket where they bought[things] 
for lunch and breakfast.
----- At 12H30, the deponent and KATE first went to pick up MADELEINE and then the twins, going to the apartment. On this day, Sunday, they lunched on the veranda of DP's apartment with the whole group, including children, except for MATHEW, who was ill and at that moment was sleeping on the veranda of his apartment, that was below and to the left in relation to where they were eating lunch.

----- They took the children to the play area next to the pool, where the playground apparatus is, at 14H15, having stayed there until about 14H20. After that time they left the twins in the creche at TAPAS, and either he or KATE, he doesn't know who, took MADELEINE to the creche above the main reception following the route previously described. He clarifies that the drop-off and collection times were recorded at each creche along with the contact number and location of the respective parents.

----- At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.
----- The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30, it being that the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.
----- That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.
----- Dinner ended at 23h00, during which every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing [how] to show [demonstrate] that they locked it with a key. Usually they entered the apartment, in which one of the lounge lights was lit, going to the children's bedroom door that was partially open [ajar] and limited themselves to peep inside, trying to hear if the children were crying. The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open, the window was closed though now he he is not totally sure if it was locked, and the curtains drawn closed. Ten minutes after dinner ended they had made their way to the apartment, going to sleep soon after.


----- In the following days they always took breakfast at home, shopping the day before, generally maintaining the daily routine described above. When the children were at creche they had tennis classes, KATE at 09h15, he an hour later, from Monday to Thursday.



Where is Monday?  thinking



----- From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSELL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at creche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter.
----- Pertaining to the routine, on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.
----- They were at the beach for about 20 minutes, the deponent and MADELEINE having paddled in the water. During this time the weather changed with a cloudy sky and cold, they went to an esplanade of a cafe next to the beach, on the left, where they bought five ice-creams and two drinks. Asked, he said that at that place there was an individual playing Latin music on a guitar to whom he intended to give some coins, but having none at the time, he didn't. That the individual had a neglected and careless appearance, unshaven and somewhat shabby [raggedy]. He was Caucasian, 175cm tall, thin, 70 to 75kg in weight, dark, short hair, almost shaven-headed with grey sides, and not wearing glasses. Wearing a light brown-coloured 'kispo' 
[coat?], with a hood at the back, and dark cotton trousers, not noticing the footwear. He said that he never behaved strangely, nor approached or looked at the children in an ostensible [deliberate/menacing] manner. On returning they left the children at their creches, as usual, the parents having gone to play tennis or went jogging


Something happened Sunday night / Monday morning.
The focus has been on the wrong day and that's why this case is not solved after 8 years.
IMO.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 22.10.15 7:27

@BlueBag wrote:I think there is a possibility that the reason Kate slept in the children's bedroom one (or two) nights before is because she was keeping an eye on a poorly Madeleine.
It was one night.  Why would Kate have mentioned this?

Perhaps this was the night it happened.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 22.10.15 8:12

Ladyinred wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I think there is a possibility that the reason Kate slept in the children's bedroom one (or two) nights before is because she was keeping an eye on a poorly Madeleine.
It was one night.  Why would Kate have mentioned this?

Perhaps this was the night it happened.
Why should we believe that Kate was telling the truth about sleeping in the children's bedroom that night (Wednesday) amid so many other lies and contradictions?

Do we believe that Madeleine and Seam were crying that same night?

Do we believe - as the McCsans stated on the Irish 'Late Late Show' - that Amelie was crying on the Tuesday night?

Do we believe that Madeleine said: "Why didn't you come when me and Sean were crying last night?"

Do we believe that it was 'just a passing remark' and that Madeleine skipped happily away after saying it?   

Do we believe, as Gerry said, that they 'nearly' went to the Millennium Restaurant that night but didn't, because they didn't have a buggy?

If we are looking for an explanation of why a bed was placed under the window in the children's room, with the curtains carefully wedged apart, behind the sofa, surely all is fully explained in this short paragraph in Tavares de Almeida's interim report of 10th Sept 2007:

 
There is strong evidence that the crime scene was altered, and some furniture was moved around. Those changes are indications that the abduction was a stage-managed simulation.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 22.10.15 9:07

The bed was made by the cleaning lady on Wednesday.
The pictures show an unmade, slept-in single bed under
the window.
The same cleaning lady stated one of the cots was in
the parents bedroom on Wednesday. 
The parents denied it. 
Enough reason to presume Kate McCann slept in 
that single bed Wednesday night imo.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 22.10.15 9:30

parapono wrote:The bed was made by the cleaning lady on Wednesday.
The pictures show an unmade, slept-in single bed under
the window.
The same cleaning lady stated one of the cots was in
the parents bedroom on Wednesday. 
The parents denied it. 
Enough reason to presume Kate McCann slept in 
that single bed Wednesday night imo.
Tavares de Almeida was clear: 'the crime scene was altered'.

The 'unmade bed' was pushed against the half-open curtains which Kate later said 'suddenly whooshed open'.

If the crime scene was altered, as was the view of the Portuguese investigation, then everything could have been altered - the cots with no mattresses, the curtains open half-way (wedged behind the bed), the window opened (Kate's fingerprint on the window), the shutters raised - and so there's no reason at all why the so-called 'unmade' bed could not have also been 'arranged' to look like someone had slept in it - when it hadn't been slept in. 

Broadly speaking, it's Taveres de Almeida's word against Kate McCann's

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 22.10.15 17:46

@Ray_Sneek
Why should we believe that Kate was telling the truth about sleeping in the children's bedroom that night (Wednesday) amid so many other lies and contradictions?

Exactly, but why did she mention it at all?  If it was true, then where was Gerry?  Kate wouldn't have seen him all night; he could have been wandering around PdL with a sportsbag, or up to all sorts while she slept in a separate room (for the first time in their marriage).
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by BlueBag on 22.10.15 18:03

Ladyinred wrote:@Ray_Sneek
Why should we believe that Kate was telling the truth about sleeping in the children's bedroom that night (Wednesday) amid so many other lies and contradictions?

Exactly, but why did she mention it at all?  If it was true, then where was Gerry?  Kate wouldn't have seen him all night; he could have been wandering around PdL with a sportsbag, or up to all sorts while she slept in a separate room (for the first time in their marriage).
"First time" anything is always a red flag in any investigation as well as change of routine (supposed more frequent checks).

I'm sure Operation Grange knows that.

You'd think.
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by guest12345 on 23.10.15 14:28

IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by pennylane on 23.10.15 14:49

@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
 Hello guest,

I agree in part that M died on evening of 3rd May!  However, I don't believe there would have been a need to move so fast unless the alarm had already been raised when they found her.  3 witnesses claimed to have overheard an earlier commotion, which (imo) was just prior to them finding her.  I think she had been sedated along with the twins that evening, and met with a terrible accident.

I also believe G ran into the Smiths, and that M was in her pajamas, barefoot and bare armed, because it did all happen fast!  If they had the luxury of planning how to best save their skins, I don't believe they would have chosen such a risky scenario that night.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by guest12345 on 23.10.15 15:07

@pennylane wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
 Hello guest,

I agree in part that M died on evening of 3rd May!  However, I don't believe there would have been a need to move so fast unless the alarm had already been raised when they found her.  3 witnesses claimed to have overheard an earlier commotion, which (imo) was just prior to them finding her.  I think she had been sedated along with the twins that evening, and met with a terrible accident.

I also believe G ran into the Smiths, and that M was in her pajamas, barefoot and bare armed, because it did all happen fast!  If they had the luxury of planning how to best save their skins, I don't believe they would have chosen such a risky scenario that night.
You are presuming here that the parents found her... I am not.

I agree the children had all been sedated that night and every night on the holiday, whilst the parents went out dining and drinking.


I think the Smith sighting was a complete fabrication by the Smiths to get Murat off the hook. It has since been used by the McCanns to help widen the window of opportunity (and make their story look more plausible) and write off Tanners sighting once and for all.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 23.10.15 15:08

@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh
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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by guest12345 on 23.10.15 15:11

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh

7.30-9.30 (ish) is 120 mins, which yes, is enough time to clean up and throw cleaning stuff in a bin bag, especially if you were already wearing gloves to prevent leaving any traces already etc.

Personally, I don't think the intent was to kill her, but death occurred and hence the body needed removing as it contains evidence.

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Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by pennylane on 23.10.15 15:18

@guest12345 wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
 Hello guest,

I agree in part that M died on evening of 3rd May!  However, I don't believe there would have been a need to move so fast unless the alarm had already been raised when they found her.  3 witnesses claimed to have overheard an earlier commotion, which (imo) was just prior to them finding her.  I think she had been sedated along with the twins that evening, and met with a terrible accident.

I also believe G ran into the Smiths, and that M was in her pajamas, barefoot and bare armed, because it did all happen fast!  If they had the luxury of planning how to best save their skins, I don't believe they would have chosen such a risky scenario that night.
You are presuming here that the parents found her... I am not.

I agree the children had all been sedated that night and every night on the holiday, whilst the parents went out dining and drinking.


I think the Smith sighting was a complete fabrication by the Smiths to get Murat off the hook. It has since been used by the McCanns to help widen the window of opportunity (and make their story look more plausible) and write off Tanners sighting once and for all.

How does the Smith sighting get Murat off the hook?

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