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10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

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Mrs Pamela Fenn's Witness Statement of 20th August 2007...

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Post by Tony Bennett on 20.09.18 12:08

@jazega wrote:Asked the question several days ago, as to why would the Smith family lie and make false statements,got no replies.
I didn't see this question before. As I am, so to speak, the Smiths' chief accuser, I am quite happy to answer it. And I will give the same answer to it as I have many times before on CMOMM and elsewhere over the years. 

First, some facts. The PJ in their final report described the Smith family's evidence as 'unreliable', and I fully agree with that.

Further, the Smiths' evidence is shot through with contradictions and changes of story that I've covered in depth on the SMITHMAN1 to SMITHMAN12 threads, so much so that I cannot believe them.

Third, those who say that Gerry McCann is Smithman must believe

1  He did walk past all the Smith family at 10pm 3 May carrying Madeleine's dead body...
2 ...at the same time (approximately) as the alarm was raised
3  He and his team then engaged Martin Smith and his family to draw up efits of himself
4  He and his team then milked the Smith sighting on the C4 doc, on their website & in Kate's book...
5  ... and finally they co-operated with Operation Grange to present efits of himself on BBC Crimewatch (2013).

This is unbelievably far-fetched. I therefore come to the conclusion that either the Smiths saw somebody completely different (which I consider very unlikely) or, more likely, they were not telling the truth.

Moreover, if Martin Smith seriously believed that Gerry McCann was carrying his dead or dying daughter somewhere on the night of 3 May, why on earth would be go on to co-operate with the McCann Team? There is a giant mystery at the heart of Smithman.

Now, I do not know why they may not have told the truth.

I have investigated two hoaxes in depth, the alleged 'drowning' of Stuart Lubbock and the alleged concrete mixer 'accident' that is said to have killed Lee Balkwell. In both cases, I have seen an almost unbelievable capacity of people to lie...those involved, others connected to the case, even senior police officers.

People lie for all kinds of reasons. Fear, money, loyalty to others for example. On that last point, I consider there is sufficient evidence at least to suspect that when Martin Smith 'phoned the Irish police on 16 May, that - in view of his association with Robert Murat - he may initially have been acting for him, to protect him.

Children can lie. Children can be - and are - coached by their parents to lie.

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Eleanor Rigby on 22.09.18 18:18

I wonder if anyone ever told the truth ...
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Post by jazega on 23.09.18 10:10

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@jazega wrote:Asked the question several days ago, as to why would the Smith family lie and make false statements,got no replies.
I didn't see this question before. As I am, so to speak, the Smiths' chief accuser, I am quite happy to answer it. And I will give the same answer to it as I have many times before on CMOMM and elsewhere over the years. 

First, some facts. The PJ in their final report described the Smith family's evidence as 'unreliable', and I fully agree with that.

Further, the Smiths' evidence is shot through with contradictions and changes of story that I've covered in depth on the SMITHMAN1 to SMITHMAN12 threads, so much so that I cannot believe them.

Third, those who say that Gerry McCann is Smithman must believe

1  He did walk past all the Smith family at 10pm 3 May carrying Madeleine's dead body...
2 ...at the same time (approximately) as the alarm was raised
3  He and his team then engaged Martin Smith and his family to draw up efits of himself
4  He and his team then milked the Smith sighting on the C4 doc, on their website & in Kate's book...
5  ... and finally they co-operated with Operation Grange to present efits of himself on BBC Crimewatch (2013).

This is unbelievably far-fetched. I therefore come to the conclusion that either the Smiths saw somebody completely different (which I consider very unlikely) or, more likely, they were not telling the truth.

Moreover, if Martin Smith seriously believed that Gerry McCann was carrying his dead or dying daughter somewhere on the night of 3 May, why on earth would be go on to co-operate with the McCann Team? There is a giant mystery at the heart of Smithman.

Now, I do not know why they may not have told the truth.

I have investigated two hoaxes in depth, the alleged 'drowning' of Stuart Lubbock and the alleged concrete mixer 'accident' that is said to have killed Lee Balkwell. In both cases, I have seen an almost unbelievable capacity of people to lie...those involved, others connected to the case, even senior police officers.

People lie for all kinds of reasons. Fear, money, loyalty to others for example. On that last point, I consider there is sufficient evidence at least to suspect that when Martin Smith 'phoned the Irish police on 16 May, that - in view of his association with Robert Murat - he may initially have been acting for him, to protect him.

Children can lie. Children can be - and are - coached by their parents to lie.

The Smith family did not say Gerry was carrying the dead body of Madeleine.
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Post by Phoebe on 23.09.18 13:46

Copying part of this post which I put on another thread earlier as it should have been put on here.

IMO opinion, Mrs.Fenn's information was not directly connected to the alleged crime of abduction. It referred to an incident two nights previous to this "crime" and contributed little information that the P.J.did not already know ie. that the children were left unattended. The Tapas 9 and various O.C. employees and other witnesses had already informed the police of this.
 What it did suggest was that the alleged checks on the children were less frequent than they claimed. As far as the P.J. were concerned what happened on Tuesday night was relatively unimportant, save for this suggestion of the children being left unchecked for much longer periods. They are of the opinion that Madeleine was last seen alive and well at 5.30 p.m. on May 3rd. Therefore, whether Madeleine was crying on Tuesday night was only important because of the alleged duration of this crying and what this implied for the claims of frequent checking.
Mrs Fenn neither saw nor heard anything suspicious or of interest on the crucial night. Therefore, the only role her evidence could play was in building up a picture of how true were the checking claims and the claim that Madeleine  always remained soundly safe asleep while her parents dined.
I imagine that the police had more pressing investigations pertaining to the night of the crime to attend to first, and that Mrs. Fenn's evidence was very much secondary in importance to this. She was also a permanent resident in the area and therefore there was no urgent need to take her statement before she left. If she had already been spoken to (and I believe she had) she would have made the police aware of her future ready availability whenever they got around to needing her statement. I see nothing unusual or sinister in this.
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Post by Sundance on 23.09.18 13:57

I agree Phoebe and also think that Mrs. Fenn is another character in this that had no reason to lie. Her testimony was corroborated by the McCanns themselves, either truthfully or retrospectively reacting to her evidence with an account of their own. It may be that this somewhat incongruous conversation with Madeleine never took place, but was a reaction fabricated by them, hence the bizarre facial expressions and recounting during one of the interviews. I have no explanation for her account of the burglar, maybe an octaganarian embellishing the truth?
Edit: Actually, thinking about that interview, I can't remember which it was, but if I got to that part and the interviewer asked about the 'crying', and my child was actually missing at that point, I'd crack up right there. I wouldn't be able to continue with sheer pain of missing my child. The fact that at that very point they were both so disdainful and dismissive, with Kates contemptuous curly lip and Gerry with the multiple sideways glances, speak volumes for me.
Off topic, apologies.
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Post by Verdi on 23.09.18 21:54

@Sundance wrote: Her testimony was corroborated by the McCanns themselves, either truthfully or retrospectively reacting to her evidence with an account of their own.

Kate McCann's witness statement - 4th May 2007

Between the day of the arrival, April 28th, and the time that Madeleine's disappearance was discovered, the interviewee says that she noticed nothing unusual. She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it.
....................

Pamela Fenn's witness statement was taken on 20th August 2007 - the PJ files were released into the public domain in July 2008. The McCanns couldn't possibly have known the content of Pamela Fenn's witness statement.

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Post by Sundance on 23.09.18 22:05

So truthfully then. Lends credence to Mrs Fenn.
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Post by sharonl on 23.09.18 23:00

@Verdi wrote:
@Sundance wrote: Her testimony was corroborated by the McCanns themselves, either truthfully or retrospectively reacting to her evidence with an account of their own.

Kate McCann's witness statement - 4th May 2007

Between the day of the arrival, April 28th, and the time that Madeleine's disappearance was discovered, the interviewee says that she noticed nothing unusual. She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it.
....................

Pamela Fenn's witness statement was taken on 20th August 2007 - the PJ files were released into the public domain in July 2008.  The McCanns couldn't possibly have known the content of Pamela Fenn's witness statement.


But Mrs Fenn could have known about the Kate's comment regarding the crying incident.

Who knows what those dodgy PI's may have got up to.  Blackmail, Bribery?  Either way, it appears that Mrs Fenn, months later, decides to back up the McCanns claims that Madeleine was alive and that there were burglaries in the area.  Later she says, "its all rubbish".

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Post by Phoebe on 23.09.18 23:28

If Mrs.Fenn was part of some conspiracy to help prove that Madeleine was alive on the Tuesday night then the hatchers of such a conspiracy must be completely stupid. Why would n't they simply have asked Mrs Fenn to say that she SAW Madeleine. If she were part of the conspiracy to defraud, it would be the simplest thing in the world for them to have got Mrs. Fenn to say "Oh yes, I saw the McCanns going into or out of their apartment on ... (pick the necessary day!). There was the Mum, the Dad and three children, an older girl and two younger children". Hey presto - job done!
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Post by Verdi on 24.09.18 0:12

@Sundance wrote:So truthfully then. Lends credence to Mrs Fenn.

No, it lends credence to the McCanns claim that Madeleine had been crying on one or more occasions, which likewise lends credence to Madeleine being alive and well after Monday 30th April 2007.

Do your homework, it all started to happen on Tuesday 1st May 2007.

Stick to the point - your words Sundance..

@Sundance wrote:Her testimony was corroborated by the McCanns themselves, either truthfully or retrospectively reacting to her evidence with an account of their own.


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Post by Verdi on 24.09.18 0:34

Pamela Fenn lived above apartment 5a occupied by the McCann family. She would have been questioned informally during the police door to door routine inquiries - to think otherwise if but folly. As there is no recording of any informal interview , nor a later formal interview as a witness, it can be safely said that she had nothing to say that would assist the investigation.

This raises the question - why, many weeks later, did it occur to Pamela Fenn that she might have some useful information to impart that could assist the investigation. It can be said with a degree of certainty that Pamela Fenn was known to Robert Murat's mother, Jenny Murat. Same generation, same locality, both residents - it would be extremely unlikely they didn't know each other, probably quite intimately. Did Mrs Fenn report anything to Jenny Murat when she had her street market stall, inviting people that were shy of the police to impart evidence?

Nothing about this case is simple. It's so much easier to exonerate specific people because they look nice, or they're old, or they are well respected in the community. No doubt the same has been said of the McCanns in and around their home environment.

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Post by Phoebe on 24.09.18 1:05

Susan Moyes told a radio program (BBC Stoke and Staffordshire August 14th 2007) that she and her husband Paul arrived in P. de L. on Wednesday May 2nd, the day before Madeleine disappeared and stayed "for a month". Their apartment was directly above that of Mrs. Fenn and the McCanns and Susan Moyes claims they had been sitting on their balcony at around 9.15 p.m. on the night of May 3rd. 
What I find truly astonishing is that there is no statement from the Moyes anywhere in the released P.J. files! Now, the Moyes could have been important witnesses, yet it appears that they were never interviewed in any depth about what they had or had not seen.
 In this radio interview Susan Moyes makes no reference whatsoever to any contact (informal or otherwise) with the police, although she mentions the P.J. investigation and the subsequent criticism of it from certain quarters.
We know that the P.J. and certainly Dr. Amaral doubted Jane Tanner's story from very early on. And yet, the very people who were in a position to corroborate or contradict Jane's story re. walking up the road and passing Gerry and J. Wilkins were never asked about this during the whole month they were in Portugal!
For me, this puts the delay in taking Pamela Fenn's statement into perspective. I can only assume that basic police work initially saw both the Moyes and Mrs. Fenn being asked very anodyne questions along the lines of  "Did you see or hear of anything suspicious that night"  and that when they answered negatively, attention was focused elsewhere. By the time they got round to speaking to Mrs. Fenn again, the Moyes had already returned home to the U.K. If they stayed a month, that would have seen them returning home during the first week of August and Mrs. Fenn did not give her evidence until August 20th. There does not seem to have been an urgency to uncover  further potential information from the McCanns' neighbours.
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Post by Verdi on 24.09.18 1:12

When considering the position of Pamela Fenn in this web of intrigue, it's very important to factor in that of her niece Carole Tranmer...

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14479p25-key-witness-statements-for-information-only?highlight=key+witness+statements

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Post by Verdi on 24.09.18 1:44


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Post by Phoebe on 25.09.18 18:19

In the interests of clarity, I think it important to point out that this is a RADIO interview with Mrs. Moyes which she gave to Radio Stoke & Staffordshire after returning home from Portugal. There is no record of, nor reference to, any interview with the P.J. although she claims to have been on the top balcony of the McCanns' apartment block at 9.15. p.m. on May 3rd.  and, consequently, would have been in a perfect position to see Jane Tanner, J. Wilkins and Gerry McCann, either as they came toward 5A or walked away from that conversation. Strangely, it appears that she and her husband were never interviewed by the P.J. about what they had or had not seen, despite being in P. de L. until the first week of June.!
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Post by Verdi on 25.09.18 21:14

@Phoebe wrote:
In the interests of clarity, I think it important to point out that this is a RADIO interview with Mrs. Moyes which she gave to Radio Stoke & Staffordshire after returning home from Portugal. There is no record of, nor reference to, any interview with the P.J. although she claims to have been on the top balcony of the McCanns' apartment block at 9.15. p.m. on May 3rd.  and, consequently, would have been in a perfect position to see Jane Tanner, J. Wilkins and Gerry McCann, either as they came toward 5A or walked away from that conversation. Strangely, it appears that she and her husband were never interviewed by the P.J. about what they had or had not seen, despite being in P. de L. until the first week of June.!

The linked thread is about media interview transcripts, not witness statement transcripts. The Moyes interview transcript is clearly headed ....

Search for Maddie BBC - Stoke and Staffordshire


The balconies for the apartment block are at the rear of the building facing the pool area, playground, tennis courts, Tapas bar/restaurant etc. The claimed encounter between Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins and Jane Tanner's alleged sighting were at the opposite side, i.e. the front of the building.

10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007 - Page 4 Madeleine-McCann-Apartment-blocks-Praia-da-Luz-Portugal
Rear facing pool and Tapas

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Front on roadside.






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Post by Doug D on 25.09.18 22:13

Verdi:
 
‘The claimed encounter between Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins and Jane Tanner's alleged sighting were at the opposite side, i.e. the front of the building.’
 
 
No.
 
They were at the side somewhere between the Mc’s side gate and the secondary OC reception.
It was only Tannerman walking left to right at the top of the hill that was at the front of the building.
 
JW:



10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007 - Page 4 9of8-ecf89375_small
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/9of8-ecf89375_small.gif
 
‘I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1.’
 
JT:


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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50_small1.jpg
 
‘Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays. They played tennis with him.

She passed by them knowing that Gerry had already been in the apartment (1) to check his children.

Meanwhile a man appeared ( * ) carrying a child (**), with a hurried walk, it being this detail together with the fact that the child dressed in pyjamas, without being wrapped up in a blanket, that caught her attention. She only managed to see him from the side, with the child in his arms. She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking, having seen this person step off the pavement that borders on the apartment block where they were staying and rapidly cross the road
.’
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Post by Phoebe on 25.09.18 23:38

@ Doug D. Agreed. The Moyes balcony was directly above Mrs. Fenn's.

  According to Jane Tanner's statement (May 10th '07) -

"About 21h10 GM left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children. Five or ten minutes later (21h15 - 21h20) the deponent (Jane T.) left, having gone to her apartment to check all was well with her girls. At that time (21h15 - 21h20) she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays"...."after having gone to see the child she returned to the restaurant. on her return GM was no longer talking where she had seen him. When she arrived at the restaurant GM was already seated at the table accompanied by his wife KH and all the others."
     
Firstly, given that the Moyes, at 9h15, were on their balcony which overlooks the Tapas Bar and the route from it to 5A, they were perfectly positioned to confirm whether they had seen -
  A) Gerry, either leaving the Tapas Bar on his way TO 5A or returning to the Tapas bar FROM  5A.

 B) They would have seen Jane exit the Tapas Bar through the reception entrance and make her way uphill toward the block. 

C) As Doug D points out, the conversation between Jez and Gerry (which Jane places at 9h15 - 9h20) took place at the side gate, which lead to the steps up into 5A. This was just off to the side of the Moyes balcony. Not only could they possibly have seen the actual encounter between Gerry and Wilkins, they would - given that they were seated almost directly above it - have heard the sound of voices conversing beneath them.



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Post by Verdi on 25.09.18 23:47

10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007 - Page 4 Tanner2

Susan Moyes: "Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed."


Moyes states in this radio interview, she and her husband arrived at the Ocean Club just before Madeleine disappeared and stayed for one month. If this be true, they would have returned to their homeland at the beginning of June, not August. The interview, the first time a Moye has been heard in public, was a matter of days before Pamela Fenn gave her witness statement to the PJ.

I strongly suggest this interview was 'arranged' with pecunary incentive. Reading the interview, this person is less than convincing - I doubt they know anything. There isn't even any evidence that they were there at the Ocean Club when they claimed to be.

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Post by Verdi on 26.09.18 0:19

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Post by Phoebe on 26.09.18 0:33

below is a good perspective IMO -


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Post by Phoebe on 26.09.18 0:39

 @ Verdi   You state above -
 "Moyes states in this radio interview, she and her husband arrived at the Ocean Club just before Madeleine disappeared and stayed for one month. If this be true, they would have returned to their homeland at the beginning of June, not August"


This is perfectly correct. Unfortunately, I was unable to amend my original post of 24th Sept @ 1.05  so I posted again today at 18h19 with the correct month -


"In the interests of clarity, I think it important to point out that this is a RADIO interview with Mrs. Moyes which she gave to Radio Stoke & Staffordshire after returning home from Portugal. There is no record of, nor reference to, any interview with the P.J. although she claims to have been on the top balcony of the McCanns' apartment block at 9.15. p.m. on May 3rd.  and, consequently, would have been in a perfect position to see Jane Tanner, J. Wilkins and Gerry McCann, either as they came toward 5A or walked away from that conversation. Strangely, it appears that she and her husband were never interviewed by the P.J. about what they had or had not seen, despite being in P. de L. until the first week of JUNE.!
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Post by Phoebe on 26.09.18 11:31

@ Verdi You state above -


"I strongly suggest this interview was 'arranged' with pecunary incentive. Reading the interview, this person is less than convincing - I doubt they know anything. There isn't even any evidence that they were there at the Ocean Club when they claimed to be"


I can't imagine that the Moyes told lies a on Radio show for a few quid. By all accounts I 've seen, they were financially comfortable. If the suggestion is that they too (like Mrs Fenn) were "plants" working for team McCann then the latter should demand a refund! The Moyes' interview merely adds to doubts about Jane's version of events, and the confirmation that both apartments above the McCanns' flat were occupied from shortly after 9 p.m. onward casts further doubt on the notion that someone would risk breaking into 5A. at that time.
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Post by NickE on 01.01.19 21:18

Here is a tweet on the subject from one of the most notorious Pro-McCann tweeter,some says this tweeter is close to the family.
"Indeed, it COULD NOT have been" Madeleine Mrs Fenn heard.
Already gone?
10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007 - Page 4 Screen88

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Post by Tony Bennett on 02.01.19 9:11

@NickE wrote:Here is a tweet on the subject from one of the most notorious Pro-McCann tweeter,some says this tweeter is close to the family.
"Indeed, it COULD NOT have been" Madeleine Mrs Fenn heard.
Already gone?
10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007 - Page 4 Screen88

That is one of the many troubles with Twitter.

Who knows what exactly is meant by those 11 words posted by 'Killa Dog'.

If, as you say, the person is a McCann-supporter, maybe it is what we would call a 'Freudian slip'? (don't know if you have the same expression in your language?)

Has 'Killa Dog' been asked for an explanation?

I stand by my assertions about Mrs Fenn's evidence, including

(1) It was first given over three-and-a-half months after the McCanns' holiday
(2) Her evidence appeared in several British newspapers on 18 & 19 August before she even made a statement to the PJ on Monday 20 August 
(3) She clearly told local news reporters that what had been said about her evidence in the media was "rubbish" - yet the media were only reporting exactly what she said in her statement 
(4) Her statement is unbelievable on the face of it (a child crying ever louder for 75 minutes, nobody else hearing the crying, Mrs Fenn failing to report it etc.
(5) Her statement has a number of inconsistencies
(6) Her statement looks very much contrived in order to 'fit' Madeleine: "a child of more than two years of age" - how can she tell the difference between the4 crying of a two-year-old and a three-year-old?!
(7) Multiple contradictions in the varying accounts of the alleged attempted burglary she is supposed to have suffered e.g. 1 week or 2 weeks or 3 weeks or 'several' weeks before the McCanns' holiday     
(8) Implausibility of the event as described e.g. an 82-year-old leaping across the room to try and grab the mythical burglar by the ankles as he leapt from a first-floor window. 

How any rational person, having carefully examined all the evidence, can take Mrs Fenn's statement seriously, is quite beyond me

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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