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Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.08.15 20:53

@notlongnow wrote:

Around 21.38secs, just seen he was ex police
Yes, this is the transcript, Panorama reporter Richard Bilton talkng to Jose Barra de Costa:

++++++++++++

JOSE BARRA da COSTA -  Former Policia Judiciaria

There are people who guarantee that this is a couple who practice 'swinging' - i.e. sexual relationships between couples and then changing partners, and that this practice would allow in this type of...

BILTON:

When you say: "there are people who say..." I'm assuming you are quoting....

DA COSTA:

People who know obviously. I cannot reveal the source here because I would lose it.

BILTON:

The Portuguese police publicly disowned the allegation, also denied by the McCanns. But such stories are damaging. Then within weeks at a press conference in Germany, this question to the McCanns?...

++++++++++++++++++

This is about all the evidence we have that 'swinging' was being practised on that holiday.

However, swingers have a very strict code of conduct about never admitting to their indulgence in the practice, akin to the Masonic oath never to reveal the secrets of Freemasonry (or so I'm given to understand)

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 23.08.15 8:14

So no firm evidence then.

Only hearsay from one unnamed source.

I have seen ZERO evidence of swinging in all the years I have been following this case.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Dr What on 23.08.15 10:11

Bluebag

I'm not sure what sort of 'evidence' you would be expecting to see in order to prove or disprove the activity of 'swinging'? As this activity is presumably meant to be discreet and a level of mutual trust is required, it is hardly surprising that the participants would brag about it to the media or leave any 'evidence' around for someone to find.

By the way, I have no view one way or the other whether the sexual enjoyment of other people's partners took place during this week in sunny PDL. However, I can understand why the Police invedtigators in this case would need to know.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 23.08.15 15:09

I think Tony's observation No. 40 (in response to HelenMegs list) is a good way to put things. There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up. I agree at the moment it can only be regarded as hearsay. That doesn't mean to say the PJ dont have such evidence, and/or that swinging wasn't going on.

Posters shouldn't be shouted down for suggesting and debating swinging as a theory, despite the lack of evidence.

All reasonable opinions are welcome on CMOMM, right ?

IMO

P.S. With thanks to Tony for his detailed summary and measured response to various comments.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 23.08.15 19:18

For anyone that's a bit hazy on the subject of swinging, here is an amusing portrayal of a day in the life of your average US of A swinger - amusing because Louis Theroux makes it so..

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x27l35q_louis-theroux-s-weird-weekends-swingers_lifestyle

I admit to never having visited the Ocean Club complex but does it really appear to be an emporium for orchestrated swinging events?  Perhaps someone who has been snooping around the resort could report back.  Whatever, if it's a regular haunt for swingers I strongly suspect that the police are aware of what goes on, it's not the sort of thing that can be easily concealed. 

The pertinent question remains unanswered - if one is taking a swingers holiday why would one take the kids along?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 23.08.15 19:19

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:I think Tony's observation No. 40 (in response to HelenMegs list) is a good way to put things. There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up. I agree at the moment it can only be regarded as hearsay. That doesn't mean to say the PJ dont have such evidence, and/or that swinging wasn't going on.

Posters shouldn't be shouted down for suggesting and debating swinging as a theory, despite the lack of evidence.

All reasonable opinions are welcome on CMOMM, right ?

IMO

P.S. With thanks to Tony for his detailed summary and measured response to various comments.
Couldn't agree more.  Tony - always the gentleman and diplomat!

ETA:  You say:  "There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up".

Slightly confusing statement - care to elaborate?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 23.08.15 19:53

@Dr What wrote:Bluebag

I'm not sure what sort of 'evidence' you would be expecting to see in order to prove or disprove the activity of 'swinging'? As this activity is presumably meant to be discreet and a level of mutual trust is required, it is hardly surprising that the participants would brag about it to the media or leave any 'evidence' around for someone to find.
The kind of evidence I would expect is... evidence.

You know, that kind of evidence.

There is none.

Rumors and hearsay (from a single source) are not evidence.

I have seen no evidence in all these years.


Last line deleted.  Mod.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 24.08.15 10:57

@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:I think Tony's observation No. 40 (in response to HelenMegs list) is a good way to put things. There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up. I agree at the moment it can only be regarded as hearsay. That doesn't mean to say the PJ dont have such evidence, and/or that swinging wasn't going on.

Posters shouldn't be shouted down for suggesting and debating swinging as a theory, despite the lack of evidence.

All reasonable opinions are welcome on CMOMM, right ?

IMO

P.S. With thanks to Tony for his detailed summary and measured response to various comments.
Couldn't agree more.  Tony - always the gentleman and diplomat!

ETA:  You say:  "There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up".

Slightly confusing statement - care to elaborate?

Of course Verdi,

Swinging is the unifying guilt factor because those involved would want to keep it a secret. Whilst swinging is not illegal, those who indulged would want to hide it, hence their feeling of guilt. IMO swinging has little to do with the cause of death of MBM (IMO MBM was struck and died as a consequence - a homicide not a murder), but swinging was the backdrop to the holiday that the participants want to keep secret.

I support the swinging theory on the basis of the many things that appear to be consistent with swinging going on, and the need to hide this in order to protect image and careers, hence why a 'pact of silence' was agreed. Tony made a great point about the secrecy amongst swingers, drawing a comparison to Freemasonry, the latter also likely being an influence.

These are just my thoughts on the basis of what I have read over the years. It would be great to have hard evidence, but that is often scarce in this case.

I hope I have answered your question.

Time will tell if I am correct, and until the truth emerges (which I believe it will) then I remain open to all alternatives.

IMO
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 11:21

With regard to evidence of swinging.. much like the majority of 'evidence' discussed in the public domain and on excellent forums such as these, it either doesn't exist, is theory, or has been mentioned somewhere and followed on from there.

However, this particular topic of swinging is IMO one of the subjects that has been the most hushed in the public domain, due to the McCanns/tapas groups links in that area (high profile connections, hence the assistance from various parties to control what information is leaked out).

IMO there will be details linked to their swinging activities in the live case files, of which non of us have access to and nothing of which is discussed in the media or by OG. 

So, short of one of the group telling the world they were swinging on that holiday (and thus neglecting their kids and having the public turn against them even more...so it would never happen), i suspect any mention of it will be brushed under the carpet with the help of gvt pressure and media gags.

Therefore yes, it is (and i have maintained from the start of the discussion) and shall remain theory...however plausible.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by HelenMeg on 24.08.15 12:32

Well, I would agree with much of the above. An 'exclusive' swinging event being held at PdL for the 60 OC guests is a theory. The PJ searching for 'swinging* on the seized computing equipment
was a factor in why some suscribe to this theory. If M died in the Apartment (another theory based on dog alerts) then perhaps sexual activity was taking place and  was interrupted - just a theory.

Paedophilia has also been put forward as a theory for what may have been going on that holiday - others have put forward 'pharmaceutical conference '  - but no evidence for these theories either. 
As mentioned above we dont know what the PJ have held back from public consumption in their files...

One thing that has always struck me as worth noting is that only for the 'Swinging' theory is there always a very concerted effort to pour scorn on it or insit there is no evidence to support it. Almost like whenever it is mentioned on a thread here, certain posters rise up to batten it down again! So that tells a little story in itself.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 24.08.15 12:44

Indeed HelenMeg, the ferocity of such rebuttals causes concern.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 24.08.15 12:49

, j
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:I think Tony's observation No. 40 (in response to HelenMegs list) is a good way to put things. There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up. I agree at the moment it can only be regarded as hearsay. That doesn't mean to say the PJ dont have such evidence, and/or that swinging wasn't going on.

Posters shouldn't be shouted down for suggesting and debating swinging as a theory, despite the lack of evidence.

All reasonable opinions are welcome on CMOMM, right ?

IMO

P.S. With thanks to Tony for his detailed summary and measured response to various comments.
Couldn't agree more.  Tony - always the gentleman and diplomat!

ETA:  You say:  "There are many things that occurred, and also said, that are consistent with swinging (which IMO IS the unifying guilt factor) but to date we know of no hard evidence to back it up".

Slightly confusing statement - care to elaborate?

Of course Verdi,

Swinging is the unifying guilt factor because those involved would want to keep it a secret. Whilst swinging is not illegal, those who indulged would want to hide it, hence their feeling of guilt. IMO swinging has little to do with the cause of death of MBM (IMO MBM was struck and died as a consequence - a homicide not a murder), but swinging was the backdrop to the holiday that the participants want to keep secret.

I support the swinging theory on the basis of the many things that appear to be consistent with swinging going on, and the need to hide this in order to protect image and careers, hence why a 'pact of silence' was agreed. Tony made a great point about the secrecy amongst swingers, drawing a comparison to Freemasonry, the latter also likely being an influence.

These are just my thoughts on the basis of what I have read over the years. It would be great to have hard evidence, but that is often scarce in this case.

I hope I have answered your question.

Time will tell if I am correct, and until the truth emerges (which I believe it will) then I remain open to all alternatives.

IMO
Thank you replying!

You say that "many things that appear to be consistent with swinging going on" but so far I don't believe you have elaborated.  What things?

I've always thought that the silence surrounding the swinging cult was all part of the buzz, especially using code words when in mixed company.  Bit like a bunch of school kids giggling behind the bike shed.

No personal experience of the swinging movement but from what I've read they use particular signs to attract like minded folk - like pampas grass outside the home?  Although that could be only myth.  Seems to me the movement has become a lucrative business enterprise, as I understand swingers events are hosted by just about every conceivable venue.   Hardly appears they are ashamed of what they do, more excited by the play acting and secrecy.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 24.08.15 12:55

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:Indeed HelenMeg, the ferocity of such rebuttals causes concern.
Even more concerning is the ferocious rebuttal when paedophilia is mentioned - in my opinion!

This is reminiscent of certain quarters suggesting one is critical of the threatened Poulton documentary because one is frightened by it, when all the time one is only questioning when it's to be released.  See how ridiculous such claims appear when a comparison is made?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 24.08.15 13:25

@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:Indeed HelenMeg, the ferocity of such rebuttals causes concern.
Even more concerning is the ferocious rebuttal when paedophilia is mentioned - in my opinion!

This is reminiscent of certain quarters suggesting one is critical of the threatened Poulton documentary because one is frightened by it, when all the time one is only questioning when it's to be released.  See how ridiculous such claims appear when a comparison is made?

Yes, paedophilia is also a possibility, but not one that I personally subscribe to. The group just don't strike me as that type....but then again I might not know what to look out for. Sexual voyeurs yes, but child abusers no.

In response to elaborating more about swinging, I would simply be regurgitating the points made already by HelenMeg on this thread, so I hope you don't mind if I refer you back to those posts.

IMO as always, and keeping an open mind.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 13:56

I for one do not believe that the couple or the tapas lot are involved in pedophilia, otherwise more would have been done to out them and persecute them, regardless of who they know.

I do however think that OG are firmly of the belief that pedo activity was taking place in or around the resort, both before and during the holiday period, hence various agencies being dispatched to the scene very quickly, to use their intelligence to assist with tracking (but failing and continuing to fail until this very day) and to categorically identify which pedo is at fault.

This is made even harder by having no body to give up clues/evidence. 

Swinging, yes (would account for the neglect, apartment visits, familiarity with locals such as Murat, help from high profile people linked to them etc etc), pedophilia no..IMO

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by tinkier on 24.08.15 14:11

@guest12345 wrote:I for one do not believe that the couple or the tapas lot are involved in pedophilia, otherwise more would have been done to out them and persecute them, regardless of who they know.

I do however think that OG are firmly of the belief that pedo activity was taking place in or around the resort, both before and during the holiday period, hence various agencies being dispatched to the scene very quickly, to use their intelligence to assist with tracking (but failing and continuing to fail until this very day) and to categorically identify which pedo is at fault.

This is made even harder by having no body to give up clues/evidence. 

Swinging, yes (would account for the neglect, apartment visits, familiarity with locals such as Murat, help from high profile people linked to them etc etc), pedophilia no..IMO
@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 14:23

@tinkier wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.

Who knows which of them were swinging/sleeping together, could have been some of them, could've been all of them, the details aren't the important thing, i was merely pointing out that Murat and Tanner seem 'connected' and there have been many a speculation about the tapas groups activities on that holiday.

With regard to your thoughts on KMc, well from what i can see, both her and hubby are very very narcissistic, therefore that behavior wouldn't surprise me. Especially with GMc somewhat bossy/aggressive nature, i wouldn't put it past them.

Regarding KMs behavior with the quiz mistress, i would simply put that down to jealousy at the younger, more beautiful and voluptuous woman showing GM some attention. Bitterness.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 24.08.15 14:28

@HelenMeg wrote:One thing that has always struck me as worth noting is that only for the 'Swinging' theory is there always a very concerted effort to pour scorn on it or insit there is no evidence to support it. Almost like whenever it is mentioned on a thread here, certain posters rise up to batten it down again! So that tells a little story in itself.
Feel free to provide some evidence.

Any.

I think we the way only forward is to keep hammering away at the unanswered questions about the known facts.

Salacious wild unfounded speculation about swinging doesn't do this forum any favors.  

Doesn't this speculation tell it's own little story?
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 24.08.15 14:29

@tinkier wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.
Exactly.

What about the previous holiday with the Gaspers?

Were they swinging with them as well?
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 24.08.15 14:33

@guest12345 wrote:
Who knows which of them were swinging/sleeping together, could have been some of them, could've been all of them, the details aren't the important thing, i was merely pointing out that Murat and Tanner seem 'connected' and there have been many a speculation about the tapas groups activities on that holiday.
It's like nailing jelly to a wall.

Did all that stuff about hair and maternal bloodlines not make you think again?
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 24.08.15 15:11

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:Indeed HelenMeg, the ferocity of such rebuttals causes concern.
Even more concerning is the ferocious rebuttal when paedophilia is mentioned - in my opinion!

This is reminiscent of certain quarters suggesting one is critical of the threatened Poulton documentary because one is frightened by it, when all the time one is only questioning when it's to be released.  See how ridiculous such claims appear when a comparison is made?

Yes, paedophilia is also a possibility, but not one that I personally subscribe to. The group just don't strike me as that type....but then again I might not know what to look out for. Sexual voyeurs yes, but child abusers no.

You're missing the point, please read my reply again.

"The group don't strike me as that type"?  What type - paedophile type?  What does a paedophile type look like - you or me?  You are able to deduce that all or part of the Tapas group were into swinging, based on what criteria?  Do they look like that type as opposed to the paedophile type?  

In response to elaborating more about swinging, I would simply be regurgitating the points made already by HelenMeg on this thread, so I hope you don't mind if I refer you back to those posts.

With respect, yes I do mind!  If I may remind you of your words - "I support the swinging theory on the basis of the many things that appear to be consistent with swinging going on, and the need to hide this in order to protect image and careers, hence why a 'pact of silence' was agreed".

There you go, you made the claim so I expect you to back it up with reason, not pass the buck.  Or is because you haven't a clue what you're talking about?

IMO as always, and keeping an open mind.

Commendable sentiment but you're really not making much sense.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 24.08.15 15:30

@BlueBag wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.
Exactly.

What about the previous holiday with the Gaspers?

Were they swinging with them as well?
Was Murat also involved in the swing-dinging - the thread is about Murat being fingered (cough!), or was his role in the affair confined to a one on one with irresistable Tanner?  Here it should be remembered that a source claimed that Murat's computer, siezed by the police,  contained images of child abuse/pornography and bestiality - although I don't believe this was ever proved to be factual.  Add to that another report I recollect, stateing that Murat's computor contained encrypted websites.  When I have more time I will try to locate, iirc this was in the PJ files.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 15:42

@BlueBag wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.
Exactly.

What about the previous holiday with the Gaspers?

Were they swinging with them as well?

Who knows. Its irrelevant what they did on another holiday as Madeleine didn't go missing there.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 15:43

@BlueBag wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:
Who knows which of them were swinging/sleeping together, could have been some of them, could've been all of them, the details aren't the important thing, i was merely pointing out that Murat and Tanner seem 'connected' and there have been many a speculation about the tapas groups activities on that holiday.
It's like nailing jelly to a wall.

Did all that stuff about hair and maternal bloodlines not make you think again?
Yes it is a bit isn't it.

No. As i have said multiple times, it only adds weight to my thinking on it, it is not the reason for my thinking on it.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 24.08.15 15:49

@Verdi wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:@Guest12345………Do you really think that Mrs M'c would tolerate Mr Mc's little trysts with other females. If we are to believe Kate's reaction to Gerry inviting the quiz mistress over to the table, I would think not? Kate comes over as a very possessive jealous woman. I really don't think she would be willing to share her husband. Only my opinion.
Exactly.

What about the previous holiday with the Gaspers?

Were they swinging with them as well?
Was Murat also involved in the swing-dinging - the thread is about Murat being fingered (cough!), or was his role in the affair confined to a one on one with irresistable Tanner?  Here it should be remembered that a source claimed that Murat's computer, siezed by the police,  contained images of child abuse/pornography and bestiality - although I don't believe this was ever proved to be factual.  Add to that another report I recollect, stateing that Murat's computor contained encrypted websites.  When I have more time I will try to locate, iirc this was in the PJ files.

Who knows who was doing what with who, although there are a number of things that put them all in the same pot (of keys) so to speak...

Murat and Tanner are connected (IMO) due to their behaviors and the 'inconclusive' hairs
Murat supposedly had dubious computer history and Payne had dubious thoughts on children (gaspers)
Murat knew Gerry (phone records, GMs denial) 
Gerry knew Payne

So it's safe to say, regardless of swinging or pedophilia, they were all connected somehow and there were lots of questions raised about their intentions and actions along the way.


Bringing this back on thread and back to my original point...i think Murat was fingered for a number of reasons..fall out with Tanner, the McCanns/tapas desire to get anyone in the frame to deflect attention away from the growing pointing and speculation that they were responsible, the medias hunger to make stories (and thus the journo saying he fitted the profile and his behavior was strange) etc etc

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