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Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 20.08.15 14:36

"As it stands there is no proof that Jane Tanner was ever in the apartment at Burgau, although I can understand an over zealous imagination might lead in that direction.  One hair possibily from Tanner found in the bathroom out of approx. 150 hairs harvested, hardly confirms a clandestine tryst does it?  Think about it, even if the hair was from Tanner there could be any number of innocent explanations for it being there. " 


............................................................................................................................................................


Agreed, but the proof of her not being in the apartment could be equally challenged.

IMO (and that of many others) there were many swinging activities going on within that resort and IMO Murat was also in it up to his neck, hence the DNA findings of him and Tanner in the same location (which had to travel from the resort), the strange phone activities of the group (and Murat) and the reason why he was allowed to be so close to the tapas group and family in the early hours/days.

Think about it...if your child had been taken, would you allow a local complete stranger close to you and your family to 'help out'...no, you would be asking "who is this guy??" and would want an official translator who had been vetted. 

IMO Murat was well known to the tapas group, in particular Tanner, who, for some reason, decided to stitch him up and get her moment of glory.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by joyce1938 on 20.08.15 14:44

Hallo Verdi, welldone for making the DNA results correct,so many times we have heard about j t and results and not repeated or corrected. joyce1938
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 20.08.15 14:48

@guest12345

Do you have any thoughts on when MBM met her fate, and did this have significance to RM's prompt return to PDL ?

Depending on your answer, do you think RM had full knowledge of what had happened at the time ?

Thanks
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 20.08.15 14:56

"Do you have any thoughts on when MBM met her fate, and did this have significance to RM's prompt return to PDL ?

Depending on your answer, do you think RM had full knowledge of what had happened at the time ?"


....................................................................................................................................................................................................


IMO MBM was killed early evening on the fateful night, no later than 7pm, very quickly after the parents went out for the evening, but not removed from the apartment until 9.15, hence movement of the cadaver around the apartment and clean up. IMO the parents never went into the apartment that night, at most listened outside the window for any noise....maybe once.


RMs prompt return to PDL was IMO not related to MBM at all, it was to resolve a personal matter, but as he became a suspect, all of his movement/activities became viewed as odd.


No, i don;t think RM had any knowledge of what happened at the time. I do however think he has been deemed an important witness as he spent time around the resort and has local knowledge of faces and places, hence his repeat questioning.


Hope this helps

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by joyce1938 on 20.08.15 14:58

I believe  Robert was exonerated of anything to do with mbm  joyce1938
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 20.08.15 15:01

Thank you @guest12345, it is always good to hear fresh opinion, and I also note your comments on Smithman 8 thread.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 20.08.15 15:41

@guest12345 wrote:"As it stands there is no proof that Jane Tanner was ever in the apartment at Burgau, although I can understand an over zealous imagination might lead in that direction.  One hair possibily from Tanner found in the bathroom out of approx. 150 hairs harvested, hardly confirms a clandestine tryst does it?  Think about it, even if the hair was from Tanner there could be any number of innocent explanations for it being there. " 


............................................................................................................................................................


Agreed, but the proof of her not being in the apartment could be equally challenged.

IMO (and that of many others) there were many swinging activities going on within that resort and IMO Murat was also in it up to his neck, hence the DNA findings of him and Tanner in the same location (which had to travel from the resort), the strange phone activities of the group (and Murat) and the reason why he was allowed to be so close to the tapas group and family in the early hours/days.

Think about it...if your child had been taken, would you allow a local complete stranger close to you and your family to 'help out'...no, you would be asking "who is this guy??" and would want an official translator who had been vetted. 

IMO Murat was well known to the tapas group, in particular Tanner, who, for some reason, decided to stitch him up and get her moment of glory.
I think you're missing the point but never mind.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 20.08.15 15:43

@joyce1938 wrote:Hallo Verdi, welldone for making the DNA results correct,so many times we have heard about j t and results and not repeated or corrected. joyce1938
joyce1938 - Out of little unfounded claims do mighty myths grow.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 20.08.15 15:45

Agreed, but the proof of her not being in the apartment could be equally challenged.

No.

That's trying to prove a negative.

From what I read Jane Tanner has DNA hair characteristics the same as 1/8th of the people in the database.

Almost worthless as evidence.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 20.08.15 15:47

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:Thank you @guest12345, it is always good to hear fresh opinion, and I also note your comments on Smithman 8 thread.
Couldn't agree more - providing of course opinion is within the confines of known facts and intelligence where possible.  It's of no benefit to make claims without any foundation whatsoever but you just Carry On Doctor..  winkwink

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 20.08.15 15:59

DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). 

The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. 

One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. 

The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.

Not 1/8th of the database entirety.

Proving her DNA/hair was there (or an 'almost match) is do-able, proving how/what/what went on there based on that, is a lot harder, hence it can only be my 'opinion' that they were physically connected.

Regardless of the hair/DNA, i am still firmly of the opinion that there was an intimate connection between Tanner and Murat and that Murat was known/had interacted with others in the Tapas group.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 20.08.15 16:04

@Verdi wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:His connection to the group and their 'activities', most importantly Murats 'activities' with Tanner...

Can you elaborate on your own thoughts on this ? .Only purporting a theory of course !


...................................................................................


Sure, my thought/theory on this is that Murat was having intimate relations with Tanner, hence both their DNA being found in an apartment away from Luz. 


All IMO of course
As this forum is so widely read, in the interest of accuracy here is forensic report detail from the PJ files..

Aparthotel Sol e Mar, 2', apartment C - Burgau

As I understand it, the EMPOP database is the global repository of regional profiles of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).
The person doing the query entered the specific mt DNA characteristics of JT's [Jane Tanner] hair into the query form and found 8 exact matches in the database, i.e. at least eight maternal lines having the identical Haplotype to JT exist in Europe.
There were no exact matches in the other three regional groups.

Because of this result the inquiry could not say with absolute certainty that the hair found in Burgau actually came from JT because it could have come from any person born of a mother belonging to any of the eight profiles in the database - one profile, of course, had to be of JT's maternal line, so it could have been some distant (or close) relative.

The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
 
mccannpjfiles.co.uk

As it stands there is no proof that Jane Tanner was ever in the apartment at Burgau, although I can understand an over zealous imagination might lead in that direction.  One hair possibily from Tanner found in the bathroom out of approx. 150 hairs harvested, hardly confirms a clandestine tryst does it?  Think about it, even if the hair was from Tanner there could be any number of innocent explanations for it being there.  
Perhaps guest missed this.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 20.08.15 16:09

No bluebag, i didn't miss that...

"From what I read Jane Tanner has DNA hair characteristics the same as 1/8th of the people in the database." that you quoted though is something entirely different (unless the 'entire database' only contains 8 records).

Plus, i am not aware of any of Tanners relatives, or bloodlines visiting the apartment?? Therefore either someone related to her did and is keeping quiet, or she did, but it can't be said why/when

As stated before, the DNA/hair discussion only helps add weight to the argument that Murat was ingrained with the Tapas group. As also stated before, it is...IMO that him and Tanner were intimate and that some disagreement between the 2 of them led to her stitching him up.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 20.08.15 16:20

@guest12345 wrote:No bluebag, i didn't miss that...

"From what I read Jane Tanner has DNA hair characteristics the same as 1/8th of the people in the database." that you quoted though is something entirely different (unless the 'entire database' only contains 8 records).
OK... my bad. But we don't know what proportion of the database fit that dna characteristic.. it's pretty high level. We are talking 8 PROFILES here not 8 people in the database.





Plus, i am not aware of any of Tanners relatives, or bloodlines visiting the apartment?? Therefore either someone related to her did and is keeping quiet, or she did, but it can't be said why/whe

8 profiles is still a huge swath of people... how many generations back constitutes a bloodline?

Have you ever done the ancestors numbers thing? 2 parents 4 grand parents 8 great grandparents 16.. 32... 64... 128... 256... 512... 1024.... etc...

They are all maternal bloodline (on the maternal side).
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by whodunit on 20.08.15 16:31

@sharonl wrote:
@notlongnow wrote:IF RM was asked by the mccs to fly over at short notice for whatever reason,why did the mcc team throw him to the lions?

RM seems to be the centre of everything in this case.


Why did the McCanns main benefactor, Brian Kennedy, meet up with Murat when he was suspected of abducting Madeleine?

Why did Kennedy offer this suspect a job in searching for Madeleine?

Why were Murats and McCanns mobiles switched off simultaneously for 32hours?

Why has Murat never questioned the McCanns Claims of abduction?

Why were there at least 17 changes of Murats story?

Why did Murats mother set up a stall to assist the McCanns?

Why, according to a GNR officer, did Mrs Fenn ring Murat when she said she heard a child crying?

There was never any evidence against Murat as far as an abduction was concerned, he was safe from the start, they all knew that. So no one really threw him to the lions, the press had a number of stories to sell, the McCanns got themselves a bit of extra time and Murat secured a nice little bonus of £600,0000
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by LombardySkeptik on 20.08.15 17:37

@BlueBag wrote:
I can't believe he agreed to be identified by the mcc team.

I agree. It makes no sense.

Which is why I think he has nothing to do with them.

Please spare me the "confusion is good" nonsense.

I wholly agree

I've never ready anything posted as a theory or evidence of his involvement that convinces me he was involved in any way

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 20.08.15 20:01

@guest12345 wrote:DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). 

The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. 

One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. 

The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.

Not 1/8th of the database entirety.

Proving her DNA/hair was there (or an 'almost match) is do-able, proving how/what/what went on there based on that, is a lot harder, hence it can only be my 'opinion' that they were physically connected.

Regardless of the hair/DNA, i am still firmly of the opinion that there was an intimate connection between Tanner and Murat and that Murat was known/had interacted with others in the Tapas group.
The database?  What of all the millions of people that roam planet earth that are not on any database?  Big Brother tried to implement a regulation for the DNA of every living person to be on record but they failed - so far!

With respect, in your lust to satisfy your own colourful imagination, you've somehow managed to morph one single hair found in a bathroom, that may or may not have come from the body of Jane Tanner, into a swingers rave-up involving half the worlds population and a full blown extra marital ding-dong between Murat and Tanner, without so much as a shred of evidence to support your opinion.

They are adults, what they do with their private lives is entirely their own business - who really cares providing they're not breaking the law.  Even if it be true it hardly warrants the cover-up of a major crime. 

Dancing around the facts doesn't change anything..

 NOTE:   Because of this result the inquiry could not say with absolute certainty that the hair found in Burgau actually came from JT because it could have come from any person born of a mother belonging to any of the eight profiles in the database - one profile, of course, had to be of JT's maternal line, so it could have been some distant (or close) relative.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 20.08.15 20:54

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml



"a mother belonging to any of the eight profiles in the database"


That's an enormous amount of people.


I think there are about - quickly guessitmating from the link - 100 (ish) maternal profiles in Europe.


As I said the evidence is mostly worthless and someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 20.08.15 22:00

@BlueBag wrote:http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml



"a mother belonging to any of the eight profiles in the database"


That's an enormous amount of people.


I think there are about - quickly guessitmating from the link - 100 (ish) maternal profiles in Europe.


As I said the evidence is mostly worthless and someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.
Who knows, I could be a direct descendant of William the Conkerer.  Do you reckon he's on the database?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 21.08.15 8:51

Verdi, not sure why you are taking this so personally and having sarcastic jibes. To re-clarify...

IMO Murat was intimately involved with Tanner and is known well to the group which is why she fingered him for some personal reason, why he was so keen to help out, why the tapas group let him become involved in assisting them and the police, why the police think he is an important witness (what had he seen with his time there on the holiday?)
IMO there was swinging going on on that holiday with the tapas group and the wider circle and i don't for one minute think i am alone with that theory, either on forums or in police offices.
IMO the hair theory only adds to the possibility that Murat was closer to Tanner than publicly perceived, i never stated that it was the entire reason and that the evidence would stand up in court (as the DNA wasn't 100% conclusive, much like the DNA in the boot of the car etc etc etc)

IMO means in my opinion. I never stated this was fact, it's theory.

With regards to the "who cares what they do, they are adults" blah blah dig, no, i do not care if they were all 'raving swingers' at all, each to their own, however, the police would be more than interested, for  a number of reasons... it would explain why Tanner fingered Murat, it would discredit timelines, add weight to any neglect charges, help track movements, explain any DNA anomalies, help provide behavioral profiles of those involved, assist in identifying any tensions within the group etc etc etc etc 

It's friday, relax a bit.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 12:40

@guest12345 wrote:Verdi, not sure why you are taking this so personally and having sarcastic jibes. To re-clarify...

IMO Murat was intimately involved with Tanner and is known well to the group which is why she fingered him for some personal reason, why he was so keen to help out, why the tapas group let him become involved in assisting them and the police, why the police think he is an important witness (what had he seen with his time there on the holiday?)
IMO there was swinging going on on that holiday with the tapas group and the wider circle and i don't for one minute think i am alone with that theory, either on forums or in police offices.
IMO the hair theory only adds to the possibility that Murat was closer to Tanner than publicly perceived, i never stated that it was the entire reason and that the evidence would stand up in court (as the DNA wasn't 100% conclusive, much like the DNA in the boot of the car etc etc etc)

IMO means in my opinion. I never stated this was fact, it's theory.

With regards to the "who cares what they do, they are adults" blah blah dig, no, i do not care if they were all 'raving swingers' at all, each to their own, however, the police would be more than interested, for  a number of reasons... it would explain why Tanner fingered Murat, it would discredit timelines, add weight to any neglect charges, help track movements, explain any DNA anomalies, help provide behavioral profiles of those involved, assist in identifying any tensions within the group etc etc etc etc 

It's friday, relax a bit.
I'm very happy to say that nothing about this case has personal implications for me, I am but an outside observer so you can rest assured I'm not taking anything personally.

On with the subject matter, there you go again off in the realms of fantasy - there is not a shred of evidence to even suggest that a swingers rave-up was going on at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.  Because some people think it possible and the hypothesis has been widely discussed does not mean it happened, it is but a theory without foundation.  By example this is snipped from your words posted-up only yesterday..

"The biggest reason for me, as to why he was thrown to the wolves.....

His connection to the group and their 'activities', most importantly Murats 'activities' with Tanner...who was disgruntled with him and along with her desire for her 5 mins of fame and hunger for attention, decided to be the 'hero who identified the horrible man'...Murat.

Problem was, there was nothing on Murat at all in terms of evidence of any wrongdoing to Madeleine, only questions about his activities and connection to the tapas group."


And this posted-up only the day before, in response to some very good points raised by sharonl..

"If true this is a very high risk game as people have been convicted for far les than 3 or 4 people all identifing him.Of course they all retracted but if the port police had taking it to court he could have have been convicted.

His changes of stories wouldn't look good in court.
His sniffing for info from the investigation also would look dubious
Switching the phones off,again not good.
I can't believe he agreed to be identified by the mcc team."

I originally suggested as this forum is widely read, it would be preferable if opinion is based on known facts and/or plausible intelligence rather than based on theory without.  Now do you see my point?  You are of course entitled to your opinions the same as the rest but I don't think it benefits the purpose of this forum to disrupt with wild speculation.

Still, I'll leave you to your Friday relaxation!

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by tigger on 21.08.15 12:54

From 'The truth of the Lie' - (I've also read elsewhere that Goncalo Amaral notes that it was the British Profilers  idea- I presume these were the two 'cracker' experts sent by CEOP - that the PJ should look at Murat.)

FOR THE PROFILERS, MURAT IS THE GUILTY PARTY

Since Murat's first interview, which they attended, the specialists have continued to refine the profile of the suspect. They have heard about the statement from one of his so-called childhood friends, put on file by the police department: according to him, Murat had an affirmed penchant for bestiality. [..]This individual describes Murat as someone violent with behavioural problems, a sexual pervert, sadist, and misanthropist. We are somewhat sceptical. All the same, according to the English profilers, there is a 90% chance that he is the guilty party. That seems to us to be a bit too easy. We think that drawing conclusions based essentially on the statement of an ex-convict is rather dangerous.

As if the memory of the McCann family's friends suddenly came back to them, all - Rachael Mampilly, wife of Matthew Oldfield, Fiona Payne, wife of David Payne, and Russell O'Brien Jane Tanner's partner - recall having seen Murat on the night of May 3rd, shortly after the announcement of the disappearance, in the immediate vicinity apartment 5A. Meanwhile, of course, Murat's picture has been shown on television and in certain newspapers. They themselves were in direct contact with him during the previous days. However, it is only on May 16th that they deliver this information to us. As for the officers of the National Guard who were on the spot, they didn't see him that night, only the next morning, when he came to offer his services as interpreter.

On July 11th at 10am, a confrontation is organised between the witnesses - Rachael Mampilly, Fiona Payne and Russell O'Brien - and Robert Murat. Nothing new comes out of it. The former persist in stating that the suspect was definitely in the area on the night of the disappearance. Murat denies the whole thing and even accuses them of lying. Each side stands its ground. The only positive aspect of this meeting: the McCanns' friends undertake to return to Portugal for the purpose of the investigation. That will not happen.
unquote


GA has a good sense of humour  smilie

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by guest12345 on 21.08.15 13:20

Verdi, do not quote theories of others as mine please (2nd part of your snippets).

I never stated that swinging was going on at the time of her disappearance, just that i (and others) believe that this was going on throughout the holiday. 

With regard to only posting on 'facts and intelligence' as you put it...with that in mind, the majority of this forum would have to be deleted, as the only people who have access to the forensics, intelligence and people involved in the whole saga are OG.

The rest...is theory based on certain bits of information released into the public domain, not 'wild speculation'.

Thank you, i will enjoy my friday as always.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by HelenMeg on 21.08.15 13:42

not quote theories of others as mine please (2nd part of your snippets).
@guest12345 wrote:
I never stated that swinging was going on at the time of her disappearance, just that i (and others) believe that this was going on throughout the holiday. 

With regard to only posting on 'facts and intelligence' as you put it...with that in mind, the majority of this forum would have to be deleted, as the only people who have access to the forensics, intelligence and people involved in the whole saga are OG.

The rest...is theory based on certain bits of information released into the public domain, not 'wild speculation'.

Thank you, i will enjoy my friday as always.
Yes - I also believe that swinging was going on during that week - or at least I would call it an 'organised week for like minded adults (of a similar social status) who enjoyed a liberal lifestyle - with additional childcare laid on to ensure that all children were supervised and looked after so that they too could have a great week.
We have to bare in mind there is quite a lot of organised 'resistance' to this idea and a concerted attempt to pour scorn over the theory. However, I think the theory evolved for a lot of good reasons..
Off the top of my head...

1. Similar status adults (60 of them) all descend upon PdL Ocean Club that week (low season mediocre resort)
2. Ocean Club appears to have large amount of support staff that week including much childcare
3. PJ computer searches used *swinging
4. Statements from Tapas 9 + other guests
5. Attempts to pour scorn on swinging theory or very telling  -
6. Ocean Club amending the creche records / booking sheets etc indicating a wish to cover up...

Much more than I can think of right now...

If Robert was part of the organisation of the week, or the 'management' of it  albeit nothing to do with death etc .. then it explains his involvement in this and his acqaintance with some of the guests.   After all, this week of adult activity was not illegal, just like minded adults having fun and ensuring their kids were well looked after and also having fun . Whats wrong with that? A few high profile people involved - no problem - a bit of networking - evryone can be assured everyone else wil be discrete. No problems - until something happens to a small child. Noone wants a PJ investigation to highlight what was going on that week. They all agree to keep that quiet.. noone wants their names in the tabloids.

Credit to Textusa for highlighting much of the info regarding PJ searches on computers / Ocean Club records / Myth of Big round table / reservation sheets for Tapas dinners / statements of guests etc etc

HelenMeg

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Richard IV on 21.08.15 15:34

@tinkier wrote:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm This statement has probably been discussed here before, its a very telling insight into the young brain of RM. His mother could see no wrong in him regardless what he did, probably remains like that to this day. RM must have been either evil/sick, or both, to carry out these atrocities on a poor defencless animal…yuck!!

Don`t forget this statement peeps - quite relevant afaic.
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