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Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

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Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by sharonl on 16.08.15 22:03

Could the time or at the least the date of Madeleines’ disappearance or death be easily determined from analysing the behaviour of the McCanns as described in their own statements. 

They claim to have gone to the Millenium restauarant on the 1st night, the staff there remembered seeing the twins but could not recall seeing Madeleine.  Ok, that tells us very little

On day one, they went out for breakfast, so Madeleine was still around at that point.  But, after that, their behaviour was very curious.


·         No longer taking the children out to breakfast – not wanting to be seen with just two children?

·         Gerry leaving by one door whilst Kate often left by the other door – so that one parent could claim that Madeleine was with the other?

·         Taking the children separately to their respective crèches – again, if seen, to explain the absence of Madeleine, as with the other parent.

·         Taking shortcuts to the crèche – to limit the chance of being spotted with just two children

·         Making a point of telling us that they had missed out on the trip to the beach and Kate asked Madeleine if she was upset about it.

.         Keeping the shutters to the childrens' room shut during the day to keep the heat out when the room was not used during the day but would         benefit from any heat generated during the day to warm the room on the chilly nights.

'          Claiming to have hired a double buggy to take the kids to the beach for an afternoon and saying that they were placed back in crèche for the final hour, when the crèche records clearly show that the kids were placed back in crèche immediately after lunch at 2.30 and were there until 5.30. 




There is more, and although this would not stand up as evidence, it is indeed very odd behaviour.  If they were being evasive, trying not to be seen with just two children, then If we can determine the point at which this odd behaviour started, we can get much closer to the date and time of Madeleines disappearance or death.

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CAN WE DETERMINE THE TIME OF MADELEINES DISAPPEARANCE OR DEATH FROM MCCANN BEHAVIOUR?

Post by G-Unit on 17.08.15 9:45

They had lunch with the Paynes on Sunday. After that they always lunched alone. When were the playground pictures taken?
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Re: Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by Amy Dean on 17.08.15 10:10

Maybe the 1st day - similar clothes to those on the airport video - but I don't think that it's ever been confirmed.
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Re: Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by PeterMac on 17.08.15 10:25

Any photos with decent sunshine and shadows have to have been taken on Saturday afternoon, or on Sunday 28/29th
By Monday the weather was closing in and it became foul, overcast, cold, windy and rainy until Friday.
Which is probably whey there are no photos during the week. No photos of tennis lessons, sailing, swimming, Sammy snake, . . . Nothing.

" />

The grey bars at the top are cloud cover.

http://weatherspark.com/#!dashboard;a=Portugal/8600-156_Luz/rua_da_Praia

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Re: Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by skyrocket on 17.08.15 16:42

On Sunday 29 the Mc's have breakfast at the Millenium restaurant (the group state this). 

At 1.15pm on Sunday 29, apartment 5A's cleaner's (Maria Julia da Silva) daughter (Fatima da Silva Espada) is heading to help her mum finish her cleaning shift as her shift has already ended. On the way she meets KM and the 3 children heading up the stairs to the Payne's apartment, and GM following seconds later from the direction of 5A. Fatima chats briefly with KM, and notices that the 3 children are carrying pieces of bread (presumably for lunch). She also notices that MBM is wearing a skirt (pink smock?) and that all 3 children are wearing trainers with flashing lights as they walk. Her recollections are clear. 

After lunch the Mc's say that they headed down to the pool at 2.15pm. Is this when the 'last photo' was taken?

The group state that Sunday evening meal is taken at the Tapas restaurant with all children left alone in their respective apartments (despite illness/ages/strange surroundings) and are checked 'regularly'. ROB states that he physically entered the Mc's flat to check on their children, and incidently, that he checked the Oldfield's child as well despite MO stating that he was in the apartment ill on Sunday evening.

THEREFORE, IMO, the strange behaviour started on Sunday 29. Saturday evening/Sunday morning/Sunday lunchtime and early afternoon seem plausible - beyond that I have serious doubts about everything. We're back to - when was the first lie?

Why did the Mc's cloister themselves away and behave as if they were on holiday independently of the rest of the group throughout each DAY, after Sunday? During the evenings, when there was a valid reason for the children not being present at all, it seems they felt free to reappear with the group. 

But is this actually what happened?

Dianne Webster (Rogatory) let's it slip that the Mc's had breakfast at the Millenium on Wednesday - oops!

Ana Silva/Alice Silvestre/John Young (Millenium staff) - remember the Mc's having breakfast in the Millenium on more than one occasion:


     'they frequented the restaurant from the beginning of the week for breakfast';

     she remembers the McCann family as 'they often used the restaurant'; 

More significantly, Cecilia Carmo, whose job as a public relations officer in the Millenium restaurant involved standing at the entrance to check/sign guests in for breakfast (to make sure no-one other than paid guests slipped in free), states that she was off on Sunday/Monday but that she signed the McCann's and all 3 children in for breakfast between 8am and 9am on Tues/Wed/Thurs. She remembered them well.

      'She says that her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.

When asked, she says that due to her work she knows most of the guests given that most of them visit the Millenium as it is the only restaurant that serves breakfast.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.

She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.

She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her.
'

So why the subtefuge about breakfast?


I don't have the answer. Could it be that the child who accompanied the McCann's down to breakfast was Ella O'Brien or another child? Did they think it was a good idea at the time and then decide after the 'abduction' that it would be better not to draw attention to it in case it led to Cecilia being questioned more closely? Are Cecilia and the other staff mistaken? I would say that the Mccann's were quite a distinctive family - 3 children, including cute little twins. So can we assume the breakfast routine wasn't changed (except perhaps possibly for the protagonist)? 


Monday 30 April had a lot of irregularities. The Lobster creche records were particularly strange; the twins ''jellyfish' record changes for the one day to being called 'starfish'; there were no activations of the Luz transmitter by either KM or GM's phones - something the PJ picked up on in their report as 'looking very odd'; the tapas7 and the Mc's are customarily vague about their movements; the group manages to block book the Tapas restaurant despite it being against policy; late evening Murat books his flight back to the Algarve for 1 May; the Wayback fiasco is centred on this date (just threw this one in); Paul Cameron (GM's nephew) loads Donegal trip photos onto Facebook; etc.

Did something happen between early afternoon on Sunday 29 April and breakfast time on 30 April?
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Monday 30th April

Post by Guest on 17.08.15 18:10

Thought I'd link this thread to skyrocket's post:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3866-monday-april-30th-day-2
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Re: Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by sharonl on 17.08.15 19:33

G-Unit wrote:They had lunch with the Paynes on Sunday. After that they always lunched alone. When were the playground pictures taken?


As far as the playground photographs are concerned, I would suggest the following:

The McCanns and the Paynes arrived at the Ocean Club late afternoon on Saturday April 28th.  Kate states in her book that one of the first things that they did was to unpack. 

I would suggest that whilst Kate and Fiona did the unpacking, Gerry and David took the kids down to the play area.  

Amelie is missing - is she at the apartment with Kate, possibly tired from the journey?

Looking at the photographs taken on the bus and at the playground, Sean is still in the same clothes that he travelled in, but Madeleine has changed.  

The little girl with Dark hair is possibly David Paynes' daughter, Lillie.

David Payne seems to be the type of person who always has his camera to hand, did he take the playground pics on that Saturday afternoon?

I think that the girl in pink is Madeleine but it is difficult to be 100% certain.

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Re: Can we determine the time of Madeleines disappearance or death from McCann behaviour?

Post by skyrocket on 17.08.15 20:28

@ Ladyinred - thanks for the link attachment, I'll have a good read. friends
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