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Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

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Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 14.08.15 8:58

Found on facebook:



Madeleine Beth McCann died or was killed in Apartment 5A between 6 and 8.30pm on 3 May 2007. Madeleine was definitely dead before Kate and Gerry McCann left the apartment and arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.40pm. Whilst the McCanns have stated that an abductor must have taken Madeleine in between one of the checks, this is obviously false. Because, it is obvious that the McCanns had to fit in the so-called abductor in between one of the checks to give the story any kind of plausibility. Having to squeeze the so-called abductor into a tight time frame, a window of opportunity, has given the McCanns a logistical problem.

According to the McCanns, at 9.30pm Matthew Oldfield supposedly offers to check on Madeleine and the twins. However, there is something wrong about this account. Matthew Oldfield states that he did not see Madeleine. What good is a check to see if everything is alright which fails to check on Madeleine? He would be failing in his duty towards the McCanns if the scenario was genuine. Why didn’t he see Madeleine? Obviously, she wasn’t asleep in her bed. There are two factors here. One is that Matthew Oldfield was not prepared to state he saw Madeleine. It would mean he was the last person to see Madeleine alive, and make him a prime suspect when the police arrived, and mean he would be accused of perverting the course of justice if discovered to be lying. The second factor is that if he claimed he saw Madeleine, then it would cast doubt upon Jane Tanner’s alleged sighting of the abductor at 9.15pm.

It was difficult enough for the McCanns to introduce an abductor into the plot. To give this version of events any credibility whatsoever, it was better to have someone within the group “see” the abductor. This could not have been done by someone outside of the group as it would have compromised their security if the witness cracked under police questioning. Therefore Jane Tanner drew the short straw, and claimed to have seen the abductor at 9.15pm. This means that Madeleine was missing before 9.30pm. It also means that Madeleine was missing before 9.15pm. Gerry McCann claims to have seen Madeleine asleep at 9.05pm. If he is to be believed, this means that an abductor only had 10 minutes between 9.05 and 9.15pm to kidnap Madeleine.

What spoils this plan for the McCanns is the unexpected arrival upon the scene of Jeremy Wilkins. So, the abductor sees Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins and Jane Tanner in the street and decides to just pop into Apartment 5A and abduct Madeleine? One of the McCanns favourite words of scorn is ludicrous, which is what we are expected to believe. It was a shock for Gerry McCann to leave the apartment and unexpectedly to bump into Jeremy Wilkins. It would not have been sociable had Gerry McCann just ignored Jeremy Wilkins therefore he had to stop and talk to him for a few minutes. In reality, Gerry McCann did not see Madeleine asleep in her bed at 9.05pm, this was because she was already dead by 8.30pm.

It is unlikely Madeleine died as a result of an overdose or overreaction to a sedative. This is because she would have been in bed appearing to be asleep, and the McCanns would not have noticed until later that night or the next morning. It is more likely that Madeleine was killed between 6 and 8pm. And, that the meeting in the Tapas bar was hastily arranged.
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by pennylane on 14.08.15 10:24

Thank you Jill x


"It is unlikely Madeleine died as a result of an overdose or overreaction to a sedative. This is because she would have been in bed appearing to be asleep, and the McCanns would not have noticed until later that night or the next morning. It is more likely that Madeleine was killed between 6 and 8pm. And, that the meeting in the Tapas bar was hastily arranged."

Not so actually.  Sedation could have contributed to M falling to her death if she awoke and went searching!  Similarly she could have felt ill, and went looking for her parents, and vomited and asphyxiated.  But all stemmed from sedation.  She could have lain unnoticed behind the couch perhaps, when the first alarm went out.... and then they found her! The checking up arrangement is not proven at all.  Just saying.....

A triple whammy from a legal standpoint as far as criminal charges go, especially if all 3 toddlers were sedated, and left alone, leading to the death of one. Which is along the lines of my belief.

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by inspirespirit on 14.08.15 10:44

He also stated in the rogatory that he saw the twins and could see they were breathing.   Impossible to see unless he actually went into the bedroom.   It was dark and although the one cot had mesh sides, the other one did not.   To even see twin no. 2 he would have had to have walked into the bedroom and looked into the cot.   So at best from where he said he was stood and the door being half open, he would maybe have made out one twin.   Not much of a check.   

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by worriedmum on 14.08.15 11:49

And weren't the shutters allegedly down?  So it was dark? And the only light was from the slightly open door?  So the task ws to visually check three children in the dark, two of whom were in cots with opaque and semi-opaque sides? Really?
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Grande Finale on 15.08.15 2:13

Some very good points made in the original post.

Also at the point where JT passes GM talking to his tennis buddy, the "Abductor" is 
halfway accross the top of the street.

If you work the timings of GM and JT backwards it actually put the abductor inside the apartment
at the same time as GM.

Previous timings (1 - 2 minute window) have missed the 30 - 60 seconds it takes for the abductor to leave the apartment front door and get to the middle of the street.

All redundant now though since Grange said they had found creche dad.

BUT what about then all the opening and closing bedroom door tales. KM & GM left the door at 5 deg GM went back door at 45 deg put it back to 5 deg. Mat went door at 45 deg, KM did check door wide open. 

The door was swinging backward and fowards for 45 minutes before Grange reckon any abductor even entered the apartment.

Strange one that   wink4
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Guest on 15.08.15 11:17

Easy to explain that one: PdL is in Cloudcuckooland
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by BlueBag on 15.08.15 11:29

Here's a thought and I have no idea what it means or where it leads.

If the scenario was pre-planned, then why did Matthew even do a check?

Why didn't Kate do the check at 9.30 and raise the alarm then?

Was Matthew supposed to notice Madeleine was missing?
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.15 12:14

Get'emGonçalo wrote:Found on facebook:

Madeleine Beth McCann died or was killed in Apartment 5A between 6 and 8.30pm on 3 May 2007. Madeleine was definitely dead before Kate and Gerry McCann left the apartment and arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.40pm.

These assertions depend on accepting (as Dr Goncalo Amaral did) that all those who gave evidence that Madeleine and the twins were having high tea with one of the children's nannies at about 5.30pm on 3 May are telling the truth. As HideHo and others have shown, these accounts are shot full of conctradictions, to such an extent that there s real doubt whether this high tea ever took place. If it did not, then one must o back in time to see what was the last occasion before that when there is sufficient proof that Madeleine was alive. 

Whilst the McCanns have stated that an abductor must have taken Madeleine in between one of the checks, this is obviously false. Because, it is obvious that the McCanns had to fit in the so-called abductor in between one of the checks to give the story any kind of plausibility. Having to squeeze the so-called abductor into a tight time frame, a window of opportunity, has given the McCanns a logistical problem.

According to the McCanns, at 9.30pm Matthew Oldfield supposedly offers to check on Madeleine and the twins. However, there is something wrong about this account. Matthew Oldfield states that he did not see Madeleine. What good is a check to see if everything is alright which fails to check on Madeleine? He would be failing in his duty towards the McCanns if the scenario was genuine. Why didn’t he see Madeleine? Obviously, she wasn’t asleep in her bed. There are two factors [the poster means 'explanations' - T.B.] here. One is that Matthew Oldfield was not prepared to state he saw Madeleine. It would mean he was the last person to see Madeleine alive, and make him a prime suspect when the police arrived, and mean he would be accused of perverting the course of justice if discovered to be lying. The second factor [explanation - T.B] .is that if he claimed he saw Madeleine, then it would cast doubt upon Jane Tanner’s alleged sighting of the abductor at 9.15pm.

A third and surely more obvious explanation is that Oldfield fabricated his 'check' which never actually took place.

It was difficult enough for the McCanns to introduce an abductor into the plot. To give this version of events any credibility whatsoever, it was better to have someone within the group “see” the abductor. This could not have been done by someone outside of the group as it would have compromised their security if the witness cracked under police questioning. Therefore Jane Tanner drew the short straw, and claimed to have seen the abductor at 9.15pm. This means that Madeleine was missing before 9.30pm. It also means that Madeleine was missing before 9.15pm. Gerry McCann claims to have seen Madeleine asleep at 9.05pm. If he is to be believed, this means that an abductor only had 10 minutes between 9.05 and 9.15pm to kidnap Madeleine.

Ah, but now we have, according to D.C.I. Andy Redwood (retired), learnt that Jane Tanner actually saw a bloke, 'Crecheman', who for six years had 'forgotten' that he had carried his daughter from the night crèche, via the road outside the McCanns' apartment, dressed only in pyjamas - so now the 'window' for the abduction could be any time between 9.10pm (Gerry says he leaves after his check) and 10.00pm (the time the alarm was raised).

What spoils this plan...

Sorry, what is 'the plan'?

...for the McCanns is the unexpected arrival upon the scene of Jeremy Wilkins. So, the abductor sees Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins and Jane Tanner in the street and decides to just pop into Apartment 5A and abduct Madeleine? One of the McCanns favourite words of scorn is ludicrous, which is what we are expected to believe. It was a shock for Gerry McCann to leave the apartment and unexpectedly to bump into Jeremy Wilkins. It would not have been sociable had Gerry McCann just ignored Jeremy Wilkins therefore he had to stop and talk to him for a few minutes. In reality, Gerry McCann did not see Madeleine asleep in her bed at 9.05pm, this was because she was already dead by 8.30pm.

Wilkins' evidence (if true, and we can't be sure about that) was simply yet another indication that Jane Tanner's account of the man she said she saw was a fabrication. Redwood got her off the hook by producing Crecheman 

It is unlikely Madeleine died as a result of an overdose or overreaction to a sedative. This is because she would have been in bed appearing to be asleep, and the McCanns would not have noticed until later that night or the next morning. It is more likely that Madeleine was killed between 6 and 8pm. And, that the meeting in the Tapas bar was hastily arranged.

I am afraid that the above illustrates what little grasp this poster has on the facts of the case. S/he should have a good read of all PeterMac's observations on the sedation issues, and the poster is clearly unaware of that TV interview (sorry can't find the link, can anyone else help?) where Gerry McCann finishes a sentence by referring to 'the night we found her' - a remark that would most certainly be consistent with Madeleine having been over-sedated.

Those who assert (as this poster does) that Madeleine was 'killed between 6pm and 8pm on 3 May' need to provide a credible explanation of:
* how she might have been killed,
* of how her body could have been disposed of,
* of how there are so many alerts by the cadaver dogs in so many different locations,
* of how the abduction hoax could possibly have been put in place at such short notice, and h
* of how the Tapas group could possibly have acted out the abduction charade that night knowing that Madeleine had been 'killed some time between 6pm and 8pm'.

There is IMO very little to help us in this poster's analysis     

--------------





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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.15 12:24

BlueBag wrote:Here's a thought and I have no idea what it means or where it leads.

If the scenario was pre-planned, then why did Matthew even do a check?

Why didn't Kate do the check at 9.30 and raise the alarm then?

Was Matthew supposed to notice Madeleine was missing?
IMO No.

I suggest that the only purpose of Matthew Oldfield's statement was to muddy the waters, and I suggest further that it is a complete fabrication.

If you think about it, his references to there being 'a bit more light' in the flat than before are a not-too-subtle suggestion that the abductor may have broken into the apartment by the shutters and window (between 9.10pm and 9.30pm) - thus paving the way nicely for Kate to follow up, half-an-hour later, with 'the curtains whooshed open and the door slammed shut'.

On the surface, until the two statements (MO and KMcC) are painstakingly taken apart by careful analysis, the whole tale seems quite persuasive...

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by jeanmonroe on 15.08.15 12:33

WHY did MO 'not see' the 'fully raised, smashed, shutter and wide open window' at apartment G5A?

The 'window' he HAD 'listened' outside of, at 9:05pm (with GM 'in' G5A at 9:04pm!)

The window MO 'had', apparently, 'listened at' on nights previously, but 3rd May 2007, when 'checking' with R O'B did not give 'a second glance' at 'that' window.!

He went passed 'that' scene, TWICE, before 'entering' through G5A patio door to 'check' on Madeleine and twins.

We now know he did NOT 'check' on Madeleine, at all.

He went back to tapas restaurant and told the McCann's he HAD 'checked' their THREE kids.!

'all quiet'

So, unbeknown, to him, a 'doctor', Madeleine, could have been 'quietly' lying dead, through any number of 'reasons', on the floor beside her 'bed'.

HE DIDN'T BOTHER 'CHECKIING'! (on her)

But told McCann's he HAD!

GM later says, 'it's not your fault Matt, that you didn't check our three kids, like you said you would, and said you had, and told us you had, when you came back to the tapas restaurant'

@Bluebag

'Was Matthew supposed to notice Madeleine was missing?'
-------------------
Oh YES!

Which 'would', of course, make HIM the 'last' person in G5A, NOT GM, 'to have seen/not seen Madeleine' with all the 'implications' that would have, on MO.

With ex DCI Redwood's 'MOVING' the 'abduction' timeline, to a much 'later' time, nearer 10:00 pm, 'just' before KM 'CHECKED', Madeleine 'would have BEEN' in her bed WHEN MO 'checked' at 9:30/35 pm.

But, MO 'FIGURED' that out, and, imo, was 'having none of 'it', coming back on him.

That's why MO didn't 'see' Madeleine, 'in her bed'

Which, of course, makes GM the 'very last' person to 'see' Madeleine, 'alive', in her bed, in G5A.

WHY the McCann's did NOT 'beat' MO, 'within an inch of his life', for not 'checking' Madeleine, and 'lying' to them about his 'check' on her, is another question, entirely.







'

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by jeanmonroe on 15.08.15 12:46

@TB:

DR KATE MCCANN ('madeleine' [2011, hardback], pg 250): "False alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler...this seemed to be what was happening..."
----------------------------

Which, of course, makes the 'dogs' even MORE 'remarkable' being 'able' to 'react' to their handler's 'UNCONSCIOUS' signals!

How does 'that' work?








'


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How Eddie reacts to unconscious signals

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.15 13:37

jeanmonroe wrote:@TB:

DR KATE MCCANN ('madeleine' [2011, hardback], pg 250): "False alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler...this seemed to be what was happening..."
----------------------------

Which, of course, makes the 'dogs' even MORE 'remarkable'  being 'able' to 'react' to their handler's 'UNCONSCIOUS' signals!

How does 'that' work?
I think it must work something like this.

Martin Grime, somewhere deep in his subsconscious or even unconscious mind, unconsciously wants Eddie to bark in certain places.

For example, in a wardrobe. Or in the wheel well of an estate car. Or on a child's red T-shirt.

Maybe in doing so he unconsciously emits some unconscious signals.

Maybe he paces up and down in certain spots. Maybe he has a nervous twitch. Maybe he nervously scatches his ear or leg. Maybe he coughs. Or puts his hand in his pockets.

Eddie may well be trained to alert to the current or past presence of cadaver scent.

But according to the Kate McCann dictum of alerting to conscious or unconscious signals of the handler, maybe Eddie also reacts to signals from the handler.

He wants to please his handler.

He will get a reward if he barks in the 'right' places, so to speak.

So maybe what goes on in Eddie's doggie mind is something like this.

He sees Martin Grime near a wardrobe. Maybe he has twitched his ear. Or scratched his leg. Or has coughed.

He then thinks thoughts something like this:

"A-ha! Now I can't smell any cadaver scent, but Martin's doing that scratching thing again. And...it seems he's doing it near a wardrobe. OK, I'd better bark a bit. Here goes..."

'WOOF!' 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' 'WOOF!'

Now he goes into the living room. "Goodness, he's by the window and doing that scratching thing again. Better give it another good go, then".

'WOOF!' 'BARK!' Run around a lot excitedly. 'WOOF!' 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' Run around a bit more. 'WOOF! 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' 'WOOF!'

"Should be OK for my reward now".


Does that make sense @ jeanmonroe?



    


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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Lands_end on 15.08.15 14:25

Get'emGonçalo wrote:Found on facebook:



Madeleine Beth McCann died or was killed in Apartment 5A between 6 and 8.30pm on 3 May 2007. Madeleine was definitely dead before Kate and Gerry McCann left the apartment and arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.40pm. Whilst the McCanns have stated that an abductor must have taken Madeleine in between one of the checks, this is obviously false. Because, it is obvious that the McCanns had to fit in the so-called abductor in between one of the checks to give the story any kind of plausibility. Having to squeeze the so-called abductor into a tight time frame, a window of opportunity, has given the McCanns a logistical problem.

According to the McCanns, at 9.30pm Matthew Oldfield supposedly offers to check on Madeleine and the twins. However, there is something wrong about this account. Matthew Oldfield states that he did not see Madeleine. What good is a check to see if everything is alright which fails to check on Madeleine? He would be failing in his duty towards the McCanns if the scenario was genuine. Why didn’t he see Madeleine? Obviously, she wasn’t asleep in her bed. There are two factors here. One is that Matthew Oldfield was not prepared to state he saw Madeleine. It would mean he was the last person to see Madeleine alive, and make him a prime suspect when the police arrived, and mean he would be accused of perverting the course of justice if discovered to be lying. The second factor is that if he claimed he saw Madeleine, then it would cast doubt upon Jane Tanner’s alleged sighting of the abductor at 9.15pm.

It was difficult enough for the McCanns to introduce an abductor into the plot. To give this version of events any credibility whatsoever, it was better to have someone within the group “see” the abductor. This could not have been done by someone outside of the group as it would have compromised their security if the witness cracked under police questioning. Therefore Jane Tanner drew the short straw, and claimed to have seen the abductor at 9.15pm. This means that Madeleine was missing before 9.30pm. It also means that Madeleine was missing before 9.15pm. Gerry McCann claims to have seen Madeleine asleep at 9.05pm. If he is to be believed, this means that an abductor only had 10 minutes between 9.05 and 9.15pm to kidnap Madeleine.

What spoils this plan for the McCanns is the unexpected arrival upon the scene of Jeremy Wilkins. So, the abductor sees Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins and Jane Tanner in the street and decides to just pop into Apartment 5A and abduct Madeleine? One of the McCanns favourite words of scorn is ludicrous, which is what we are expected to believe. It was a shock for Gerry McCann to leave the apartment and unexpectedly to bump into Jeremy Wilkins. It would not have been sociable had Gerry McCann just ignored Jeremy Wilkins therefore he had to stop and talk to him for a few minutes. In reality, Gerry McCann did not see Madeleine asleep in her bed at 9.05pm, this was because she was already dead by 8.30pm.

It is unlikely Madeleine died as a result of an overdose or overreaction to a sedative. This is because she would have been in bed appearing to be asleep, and the McCanns would not have noticed until later that night or the next morning. It is more likely that Madeleine was killed between 6 and 8pm. And, that the meeting in the Tapas bar was hastily arranged.
Great points mentioned here. Lets look at the facts as we see them.

1. Madeleine was not abducted as claimed, this means one way or another she sadly is dead.
2. Madeleine died in that apartment.
3. Kate and Gerry McCann are liars.
4. The Tapas gang are also liars.
5. Doctors can and do use their status to obtain prescribed drugs for use with their children.

We can dance all the way around what I call the nonsensesphere  with theories about sedation, phone tapping, wallet losing, Robert Murating, Jeremy Wilkinsing, child checking, media circusing , whooshing , clunking , swinging , bonking whatever else. Just examine the 5 points as I have listed and hopefully someone, even if it is the children of some of these odious people start telling the true facts about what happened in 2007.

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by worriedmum on 15.08.15 15:22

3E
Tony Bennett wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:@TB:

DR KATE MCCANN ('madeleine' [2011, hardback], pg 250): "False alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler...this seemed to be what was happening..."
----------------------------

Which, of course, makes the 'dogs' even MORE 'remarkable'  being 'able' to 'react' to their handler's 'UNCONSCIOUS' signals!

How does 'that' work?
I think it must work something like this.

Martin Grime, somewhere deep in his subsconscious or even unconscious mind, unconsciously wants Eddie to bark in certain places.

For example, in a wardrobe. Or in the wheel well of an estate car. Or on a child's red T-shirt.

Maybe in doing so he unconsciously emits some unconscious signals.

Maybe he paces up and down in certain spots. Maybe he has a nervous twitch. Maybe he nervously scatches his ear or leg. Maybe he coughs. Or puts his hand in his pockets.

Eddie may well be trained to alert to the current or past presence of cadaver scent.

But according to the Kate McCann dictum of alerting to conscious or unconscious signals of the handler, maybe Eddie also reacts to signals from the handler.

He wants to please his handler.

He will get a reward if he barks in the 'right' places, so to speak.

So maybe what goes on in Eddie's doggie mind is something like this.

He sees Martin Grime near a wardrobe. Maybe he has twitched his ear. Or scratched his leg. Or has coughed.

He then thinks thoughts something like this:

"A-ha! Now I can't smell any cadaver scent, but Martin's doing that scratching thing again. And...it seems he's doing it near a wardrobe. OK, I'd better bark a bit. Here goes..."

'WOOF!' 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' 'WOOF!'

Now he goes into the living room. "Goodness, he's by the window and doing that scratching thing again. Better give it another good go, then".

'WOOF!' 'BARK!' Run around a lot excitedly. 'WOOF!' 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' Run around a bit more. 'WOOF! 'BARK!' 'WOOF!' 'WOOF!'

"Should be OK for my reward now".


Does that make sense @ jeanmonroe?



    

That would only make sense if Martin Grime trained the dogs by rewarding the dogs when  they barked-regardless of whether they found anything. 

WHY WOULD HE DO THAT?

WHY WOULD POLICE FORCES PAY £530 PER DAY FOR A DOG THAT BARKS* ?



* My dog barks. Does anyone want to pay me £530 per day to run around? He's cute too! lol4
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by snook on 01.09.15 4:44

A point I have always pondered is why no one ( as far as I know)  ever asked Oldfield WHY he couldn't confirm seeing Madeleine in her bed? The bed was closest to the door and therefore would have benefitted from what little light from the main apartment there was. Surely even if he didn't see her face he would have been aware of the shape of a child size outline under the bedclothes? It seems his description of the twins breathing patterns was accepted by police yet not one of them questioned why he could assert this when to do so Madeleine would have been in his direct line of site?
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.09.15 7:57

snook wrote:A point I have always pondered is why no one ( as far as I know)  ever asked Oldfield WHY he couldn't confirm seeing Madeleine in her bed? The bed was closest to the door and therefore would have benefitted from what little light from the main apartment there was. Surely even if he didn't see her face he would have been aware of the shape of a child size outline under the bedclothes? It seems his description of the twins breathing patterns was accepted by police yet not one of them questioned why he could assert this when to do so Madeleine would have been in his direct line of site?
I think the simple answer, @ snook, is that the entire alleged check by Oldfield was fabricated in order to promote the abduction claim.

It was a carefully crafted statement, with subtle references to the door being more open than before and there being 'more light' etc. in the children's room, cunningly suggesting that the abductor had already snatched Madeleine.

Of course, DCI Andy Redwood has made all that effort by Oldfield a complete waste of time by putting forward the unlikely 'Smithman' as 'the centre of our focus'. 

If Oldfield was right in suggesting that the abductor had already taken Madeleine, that means [according to Redwood] that he took over half-an-hour before [allegedly] the Smiths saw him.

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by skyrocket on 01.09.15 8:12

I am in the same camp as PM/TB/et al - I believe MBM met some fate well before 3 May and probably on the 29 April. I do not believe the Mccanns version of events.


However,



@TB

the poster is clearly unaware of that TV interview (sorry can't find the link, can anyone else help?) where Gerry McCann finishes a sentence by referring to 'the night we found her'



Tony, I lived in Spain for 2 years and understand spoken (and written) Spanish fairly well. I viewed the Spanish news clip that you refer to about 6 months ago (not got time to find it now). I have not been on here long but I know that facts are important to all of us on here (none more so than yourself) so I feel I should correct what you have stated above. 'The night we found her.' has been circulated widely but I don't believe it is what GM said in the interview. I'm not sure whether the interview has been curtailed maliciously, but it has been cut short. In the news clip for Spanish TV, the spanish translator has voiced over about 2 words ahead of what GM says. So, when the clip cuts off abruptly after '....we found her', the translator has already finished the sentence with another word. Whoever originally copied and circulated the original cut off GM's last word/s. The Spanish translator's last word is 'desaparacido' immediately after the 'night we found her..'. Desaparacido translates as missing, specifically in terms of people - it can also mean dead, but only in terms of missing in action in a war situation, when the missing person is assumed to be dead. So GM actually said '...the night we found her missing.' Shows you just how careful you've got to be with absolutely everything - if I hadn't understood Spanish I would have been none the wiser.



Whilst we're on the subject, I have one other bugbear - if anyone out there has an actual date for the filming of GM laughing whilst hanging half in/out of a patio door, I'd very much appreciate it. Sorry if this is OT!



I can assure you all out there that I don't spend my free time trying to improve GM's image but it's better to share/correct any inadvertent mistakes.
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by skyrocket on 01.09.15 16:54

Here's the youtube video of GM:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_YfUehsac0


At the start of his last sentence he states that the fact that they had been portrayed as being guilty 'was particularly hard'. He finishes the sentence with 'but not as bad as the night we found her ......"


The Spanish translation is not exact because 'not as bad as' translates best as 'not as difficult as' (no tan dificil como) in Spanish. The end of the sentence has been translated actually as 'desaparecio' which means 'she disappeared'. If you listen you can quite clearly hear 'desaparecio' as the translators last word.



So GM probably says 'but not as bad as the night we found her missing.'


The Spanish translator says 'but not as difficult as the night that she disappeared.' The translator has a bit of an accent so I hope this is a spot on translation BUT there is no question that his last word translates as 'she disappeared'.
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Verdi on 01.09.15 19:42

"Las Mañanas de Cuatro" - Transcript of McCann interview sections, from second programme - 4th May 2010.

Note: This transcript is taken direct from the video and is not a translation of the Spanish transcript (apart from the questions).

Due to the Spanish language dubbing, and the intrusive accompanying music, there are certain passages which are impossible to hear with clarity - on those occasions the note [unclear] has been inserted.

By Nigel Moore

Interview, section 1:

Concha García Campoy: I'd like to ask you two or three questions about doubts in the investigation; I understand that this is a bit painful. It is said that you have not collaborated in a reconstruction of the facts, neither your friends.

Gerry McCann: Especially some of our friends, and how we had been treated, they did not feel that the proposed reconstruction, errr... would have any way gone to helping find Madeleine. No one wanted to do anything [unclear] among our friends [unclear]. To do anything it would have been a complete media circus.

Kate McCann: We also asked about the possibility of actors being used, which is obviously what we do in our reconstructions. I mean, certainly in the UK we have a programme called Crimewatch, which uses actors and I think [unclear]. Errm... it's probably detrimental to ask people who have been through something traumatic to live it again.

CGC: Some tests in the apartment were collected, also in a car that you rented. Do you know something about the results of those tests?

GM: They essentially didn't demonstrate anything and there were fragments of DNA, which, errr... the senior scientist said came from at least five different people. The report is absolutely clear on this, that none of that... nothing in there, was anything of anything and, errr... [unclear] has said there was blood but they've not identified it as blood.

CGC: Why do you think that the head of the investigation, Gonçalo Amaral, wants to prove that you are guilty?

GM: To be honest, I don't even really want to talk about it because you can speculate about his motives. The important thing is that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and there's certainly no evidence of any... our involvement in any way. What Mr Amaral's done, and his record, I think speaks for itself.

Interview, section 2:

CGC: Do you want to reopen the investigation into the case of your daughter Madeleine?

KM: A little girl is still missing, you know, it's not finished, you know. It's... it's almost like saying, 'Oh well, we'll see what we can find [unclear]' you know.

GM: And I just think that's unacceptable that, errm... the parents of a missing child are having to drive the investigation.

CGC: It made a great impression on me when, at one point, it was said that you had drugged the children, I suppose that that was one of the most serious accusations made against you?

KM: Well, again, that was a total lie. Errm... It's quite disgraceful, actually that that was ever put into the media and I think it's of interest that, errr... our doctor had never been contacted. I mean, it's a lie. What... I mean, what can I say?

GM: You know, you can go over lots and lots of things; there were many things that were published. Some could have been made up; some could have come from the Internet. Other people who have gone through terrible tragedies and... and been through similar things. Journalism used to have [unclear], it's now so driven by profit and sensationalism and the ability to print anything, no matter how damaging it is to people.

CGC: This is a question for both of you but especially for Kate. Were the interrogations of the Portuguese police particularly hard?

KM: The questioning was one of those situations that I would never have believed we'd have ever have been in. A man has taken Madeleine and we have to find him and we'll find Madeleine. For people, including the police, to be not looking for that man, but looking at me and Gerry, then it might [unclear] Madeleine.

GM: Identifying that person is what we have to do at this stage but whoever took Madeleine is still out there, so other children are at risk. And how could we [unclear] at a time when we weren't there, sort of thing. The leaks, smears and lies that were put in the media to try and, errr... convey, errr... an image that we were guilty of our own daughter's disappearance, errm... was particularly hard but the m... it wasn't as bad as the night we found her. [Full stop!]

[Thanks to mccannfiles.com]
~~~~~~

As much as your invaluable knowledge of the Spanish language is appreciated, I think the lost in translation card has been played too often when trying to dispute what was or wasn't said - did or didn't happen.  A few native speakers of Portuguese and Spanish have put a lot of effort into translating media articles and interviews relating to the case, at this late stage I don't think it fair to rubbish their efforts by speculating on what might have been said by an interpreter or Gerry/Kate Mccann, when the evidence of what was said is before your very eyes.  I can't believe that some chancer is making mischief by manipulating an interview with the McCanns by the Spanish media - what would be the point?

Besides the words, expressions and body language are far more revealing!

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by worriedmum on 01.09.15 19:55

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Verdi on 01.09.15 22:07

Can you throw any more light on this video worriedmum, the link doesn't work for me - YouTube perhaps?  Ta!

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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by skyrocket on 01.09.15 22:52

@ Verdi

Hi.

This is obviously a very hotly debated point - it wasn't my intention to cause any upset.

I respect your opinion but the Spanish reporter (probably reading from a prepared script) finishes the interview with the words 'she disappeared', there is no question about that. The translation for  '.....it wasn't as bad as the night we found her', is different - the verb at the end should have been encontrar (to find). It isn't a case of complicated translation and I feel it unlikely that a translator would have made such a mistake. I accept completely that the Spanish translation does not agree with what GM is heard to say. If you take what GM says on face value then it is damning.

Despite your strong protestations I'll stick to my opinion though! Had the report not finished at exactly that point I would have been far less suspicious. I'm afraid I'm far more cynical than you, and I can quite easily believe that there are people out there who might manipulate media reports - the reason would appear fairly obvious. I'm sure there are dirty tricks going on on both sides of this affair. I feel it is less likely that GM would have made such a serious slip of the tongue; he was not under any pressure at the time.

However, having said all that, you may be right and I may well be wrong (wouldn't be the first time)! I suspect you're going to press the point about what was said 'before my eyes' but in reality, without the full original recording there is NO WAY of being certain whether the end has been clipped. Stalemate I think - shall we just agree to disagree?! yes

As I stated before - I believe something happened to MBM on 29 April. I do not believe the Mc's version of events. Not sure why I feel the need to re-iterate this just because I disagree with some of you on the above matter!!
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Grande Finale on 02.09.15 1:57


WOW! 58 seconds right there "the door slammed and that's when I noticed Madeleine was there" wft

GM's Reaction to that ? (but didn't say a word) incredible stuff

Great work worriedmum
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by skyrocket on 02.09.15 8:00

@worriedmum (& @ verdi!)


Good find worriedmum.



Kate said "the door slammed and that's when I noticed Madeleine was there"


And, GM definitely reacts.


Interestingly, the Portuguese online translation misquotes it as 'Madeleine wasn't there'! Did the Mc's make sure it was 'corrected' before transmission? Did the same happen with the Spanish TV interview translation we discussed above Verdi? I am open to that certainly being a possibility. Genuine question now - do you feel the Mc's wield that sort of power over foreign media? I had always assumed not.



Aaaaaargh - this makes no sense. KM can't have 'found' MBM at 10.00pm on the 3 May (according to the Mc's timeline - absolutely no time to deal witht the situation before the alarm was raised very soon after). Is it a Freudian slip - is she recalling what happened on a night earlier in the week?



Or did KM forget her lines and fluff them at that point - the interview is in 2010 with the Mc's nemesis ('no holds barred' SF - excellent interviewer) and perhaps no-one has asked Kate to go through it all step-by-step for a couple of years. So, is KM trying to remember the storyline as she's replying and inadvertently says the wrong thing? Either way botched lines or Freudian slip - it has guilt written all over it.


Very, very interesting - certainly got my brain ticking over early this morning.
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Re: Why Madeleine Beth McCann is dead

Post by Honeyblade on 02.09.15 8:06

It is great work !
I also notice Gerrys body language at the beginning of the interview Kate turns in towards him but he shifts away .. He is also agitated drumming his fingers and then the studied response to his question is to throw himself back in chair and cross his legs ... Feigned nonchalance .. Err no ham acting ... You don't want to be there .. Passive aggressive guilt oozes from every pore imo.

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