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Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

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Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by sharonl on 31.07.15 20:49


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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 05.08.17 12:54

Apologies if this has already been discussed. Mods please move if it's in the wrong place. There are so many "cadaver"and "dogs" threads that it is difficult to go through all the pages of comments.

 I looked again at the P.J. files report (complete with list and accompanying photos) re. the examination of the McCanns' clothing collected from the Vista Mar Villa on August 2nd '07 and was surprised to find not a single item that belonged to Madeleine. There is none of her clothing from the playground photos, nor are the pink smock and shorts of "Last photo" fame there. Where on earth were all Madeleine's clothes that day? The following day August 3rd Gerry delivered more clothing to the police station but none of these is listed or photographed. I seem to recall Kate recounting that the heartless P.J. had even taken wet clothing from the washing machine so why did they have to wait for Gerry to deliver more the following day? Fair enough, they had to leave some clothes for them to wear but apparently Gerry delivered four boxes of clothing the next day. Were these ALL unavailable on the 2nd and if so why? The clothing collected on August third is not given an itemized list nor photographed in the released files so there is no way of knowing if anything belonging to Madeleine was handed over. Oddly enough, cadaver odour is only found on the clothing taken on the 2nd August. If cross contamination was at play one would expect alerts to the next day's clothing too, unless these clothes were carefully selected/ treated. I understand washing does not completely disguise cadaver odour but I wonder if a long soak in and wash with strong-scented fabric conditioner or vinegar does?

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 05.08.17 23:03

@Phoebe wrote:I looked again at the P.J. files report (complete with list and accompanying photos) re. the examination of the McCanns' clothing collected from the Vista Mar Villa on August 2nd '07 and was surprised to find not a single item that belonged to Madeleine. There is none of her clothing from the playground photos, nor are the pink smock and shorts of "Last photo" fame there. Where on earth were all Madeleine's clothes that day? The following day August 3rd Gerry delivered more clothing to the police station but none of these is listed or photographed.
08-Processo 8 pages 2110 to 2124
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2110
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2110.jpg][/url]
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2111
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2111.jpg][/url]
Processos Vol VIII Pages 2110

POLICIA JUDICIARIA
Inspector: Joao Carlos
Date: 03/08/07
Place: DIC Portimao

Designated Officers: Paulo Pancadas and Nuno Nunes, PJ Inspectors

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Presented with a box containing articles and other clothing with the inscriptions ?DIC DE PORTIMAO? * NUIPC 20107.0 GALS * Place: Rua das Flores, no.27 ? Vivenda Vista-Do-Mar ?Urbanizacao Luz-Praia da Luz-Lagos * Division: Lounge (handwritten) * 2 pillows (handwritten) * Date: 2/08/07.

1. One pair of woman's trousers, HOBBS, size 8, checked pattern (white and black).


2. One woman's top, white, H & M, European size 5.

3. A childrens T-Shirt, red, with aeroplane motifs, NEXT, for the age 2-3, length 98 cms.

4. Sleeveless woman's T-shirt, white NEXT, in UK size 10

5. Bath towel, Turkish cloth, white SAN PEDRO


6. Bath towel, Turkish cloth, blue, with marine motifs, FELPOTECE

7. Children's shorts, blue, with red string, NEXT, for age 2-3, length 98 cms

8. Childrens shorts, lycra, blue in colour, with pink, MATERNA, for 2-3 years, length 98 cm

9. Childrens trousers, dark blue with bright orange, MARKS & SPENCER, for one to one and' years, length 90 cms

10. Childrens shirt ' girl ' pink, DOLCE & GABBANA, with the image SUPERGIRL.

11. Boys shirt, short-sleeved, light blue, with small white markings, NEXT, for 2-3 years, length 98cms.

12. Ladies
briefs, white, MARKS & SPENCER, UK size 10
13. Mens t-shirt, short-sleeved, mixed colours, with letters on the front, NEXT, size large.

14. Woman's sleeveless shirt, lilac, with floral designs on the front, KIRKWOOD ESSENTIALS.


15.
Men's sport polo shirt, white with black trim, GLENMUIR 1891, Medium.

16. Mens sport shorts, white, NIKE, size XL

17. Woman's sport t-shirt, grey, with the word PASSION written on the front, AMELIA JANE, size 44.


18. Sport t-shirt for men, white, with some grey, MARKS & SPENCER, size large

19. Mens t-shirt, light blue, with the inscription O'NEILL, size large.

20. A bib with sleeves, Turkish cloth, white, with Turkish blue colouring, with a monkey on the front and the words ?here comes 'trouble'
NN PJ FILES INDEX
21. Childrens shorts, khaki, with various pockets, GENUINE KIDS, size 2T

22. Childrens shorts, with vertical stripes in blue tones, DESIGNERS, for age 18-24 months

23. Two pillow-cases, yellow, with dolls and words.


24. A pillow with the respective cover, white, with the words 'Visto do Mar 927 Metavilla'

25. A pillow with its cover, white

26. Two bath towels of Turkish cloth, yellow.

All the articles were photographed and identified from numbers1 to 26, corresponding to the numbers above. The photos follow the report.
CLOTHING LIST PORTUGUESE
1 - A pair of Black and white checked  "HOBBS" size 8,
2 - A  Top woman's in white, "H & M1 ', Euro-size S.
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2112
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2112.jpg][/url]
3 - A child's red T-Shirt, with aeroplane motifs "NEXT "for ages 2-3 years - height 98cms
4. Sleeveless woman's T-shirt, white NEXT, in UK size 10
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2113
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2113.jpg][/url]
5 - A white Turkish Bath towel , ,  "SAN PEDRO".
6 - A  Blue beach towel, with marine motifs,  "FELPOTECE
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2114
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2114.jpg][/url]
7 - child blue  shorts , with red belt "NEXT" for ages 2-3 years and height of 98 cms
8. Childrens shorts, lycra, blue in colour, with pink, MATERNA, for 2-3 years, length 98 cm
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2115
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2115.jpg][/url]
9 - "Childs trousers " dark blue with orange, stripe "MARKS & SPENCER, age of 1 and a half to two - height 90 cm
10 -Girls pink T-Shirt "Dolce & Gabbana", printed with image in front saying "super girl".
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2116
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2116.jpg][/url]
11 - A boys sweater, short-sleeve, light blue in colour, with a small motive white,"NEXT" for 2-3 years - height 98 cms
12 - Ladies briefs, white, MARKS & SPENCER, UK size 10
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2117
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2117.jpg][/url]
13 - A t-shirt of a man in short sleeve, colour green, with letters and numbers in front of mark "NEXT", size L
14. Woman's sleeveless shirt, lilac, with floral designs on the front, KIRKWOOD ESSENTIALS
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2118
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2118.jpg][/url]
15 - Men's sport polo shirt, white with black trim, GLENMUIR 1891, Medium.
16 - A mans shorts, sports, white, "NIKE", size XL
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2119
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2119.jpg][/url]
17. Woman?s sport t-shirt, grey, with the word PASSION written on the front, AMELIA JANE, size 44.
18. Sport t-shirt for men, white, with some grey, MARKS & SPENCER, size large
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2120
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2120.jpg][/url]
19. Men?s t-shirt, light blue, with the inscription O?NEILL, size large.
20 - A Bib" with sleeves, fabric Turkish, white, with lively blue turquoise, with design a monkey in front and the inscription "Here Comes trouble
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2121
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2121.jpg][/url]
21. Children?s shorts, khaki, with various pockets, GENUINE KIDS, size 2T
22. Children?s shorts, with vertical stripes in blue tones, DESIGNERS, for age 18-24 months
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2122
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2122.jpg][/url]
23. Two pillow-cases, yellow, with dolls and words.
24. A pillow with the respective cover, white, with the words ?Visto do Mar 927 Metavilla?
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2123
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2123.jpg][/url]
25 - A pillow with its cover, white
26 - Two yellow bath towels from Turkish fabric
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2124
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2124.jpg][/url]
08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2125
TRANSLATED BY INES
VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2125

From: Inspector Joao Carlos


TERMS OF DELIVERY

On 3rd August 2007 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:

1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon.
2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.
3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.

4. One Bible.
5. Two diaries.
6. One note pad.
7. One pair of rubber gloves.

The present Terms of Delivery were elaborated and will be signed.

Signed

Gerald McCann
 
CUDDLE CAT
08_VOLUME VIIIa_Page2098_prosseso
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/08_VOLUME VIIIa_Page2098_prosseso.jpg]
[/url]
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/08_VOLUME VIIIa_Page2098_prosseso.jpg]
[/url]
[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/08_VOLUME VIIIa_Page2098_prosseso.jpg]http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
[/url]


[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/08_VOLUME VIIIa_Page2098_prosseso.jpg][/url]

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 05.08.17 23:25

Irrespective of confirmation of documented articles collected from the McCanns rented villa on 2nd August 2007 and receipted by the PJ on 3rd August 2007, I can't see any reason why Madeleine's clothing would be required for forensic examination by the specialist dogs Eddie and Keela.

Whatever happened to Madeleine, she would only have been wearing one outfit at the time - without those items of clothing any examination of her other holiday attire would be worthless.  Surely?

The Portuguese sent a pair of Madeleine's pyjamas to the forensic laboratories in October 2007 to compare fibres with forensic evidence harvested in and around apartment 5a - result negative.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 05.08.17 23:50

@Verdi wrote:Irrespective of confirmation of documented articles collected from the McCanns rented villa on 2nd August 2007 and receipted by the PJ on 3rd August 2007, I can't see any reason why Madeleine's clothing would be required for forensic examination by the specialist dogs Eddie and Keela.

Whatever happened to Madeleine, she would only have been wearing one outfit at the time - without those items of clothing any examination of her other holiday attire would be worthless.  Surely?

The Portuguese sent a pair of Madeleine's pyjamas to the forensic laboratories in October 2007 to compare fibres with forensic evidence harvested in and around apartment 5a - result negative.
The only descriptions/photos of clothes seem to be of those pictured above, all of which were collected on August 2nd. Why record and photograph these clothes, but not those given in by Gerry the following day, August 3rd? It seems strange. The P.J. went to the trouble of recording and photographing clothing belonging to the young twins, who were unlikely to have been involved in Madeleine's death. I imagine they would also have been interested in Madeleine's clothing, especially whatever she was wearing on the afternoon of May 3rd during the so called "missing hours" after high tea. If, for example, they were to have found blood or cadaver odour on clothing belonging to Madeleine it would suggest that she had not been abducted that night from her bed in her pyjamas! I would have thought an examination of Madeleine's clothing for traces of blood would have been automatic. Blood was found in the apartment matching Madeleine. It could have been shed at any time. Only the McCanns and helpful Dr. Payne were "witnesses" to her having been dressed for bed on the night she vanished.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 06.08.17 0:18

@Phoebe wrote:The only descriptions/photos of clothes seem to be of those pictured above, all of which were collected on August 2nd. Why record and photograph these clothes, but not those given in by Gerry the following day, August 3rd? It seems strange.
I think you'll find the dates are confusing the issue - the items collected on 2nd August 2007 are the same as those documented on 3rd August 2007.  I thought I'd made myself clear.

The McCanns were due to travel to Huelva, Spain on 2nd August.  Due to an alleged illness (a whopping great lie as confirmed by Kate McCann) the trip was postponed.

At approximately 06:00 pm on 2nd August the PJ, accompanied by Eddie and Keela, arrived at the McCanns rented villa.  Friend Jon Corner stated in the Panorama documentary that the McCanns were forewarned of this forensic visit and that there were clothes in the washing machine when the Inspectors arrived.

Gerry McCann:   Today was a bit of a write off for me as I was laid low with a probable viral illness which meant I could not stray too far from the house! I did manage to get through some e-mails, telephone calls and some paperwork. Feeling a bit better tonight so hopefully be back to normal tomorrow.

Kate McCannWe’d never lied about anything – not to the police, not to the media, not to anyone else. But now we found ourselves in one of those tricky situations where we just didn’t seem to have a choice… As it happened, Gerry had a mild stomach upset which we used as an excuse to postpone the trip.

3rd August the trip to Huelva goes ahead, on public record they left Praia da Luz at 09:00 am.

The PJ investigation was working on the timeline and circumstances as presented by the McCanns and their group of friends.  Madeleine was (allegedly) last seen on the night of 3rd May 2007 and mysteriously disappeared after the parents had put their children to bed before leaving the apartment for dinner.  At that stage of the investigation there would be no reason to think Madeleine was dressed in anything other than her pyjamas.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 06.08.17 1:29

@ Verdi "I think you'll find the dates are confusing the issue - the items collected on 2nd August 2007 are the same as those documented on 3rd August 2007.  I thought I'd made myself clear. "

 The P.J. files state -

  " Examination of clothes COLLECTED from the Vista Mar Villa, 02 August 2007 "

 and goes on to itemize, describe and show the photos of said clothes. These are the only clothes thus treated.


 Then the files show  TERMS OF DELIVERY

[size=16]On 3rd August 2007
 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:

1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon.
2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.
3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags.

4. One Bible.
5. Two diaries.
6. One note pad.
7. One pair of rubber gloves.
[/size]



Is this not stating that on August 3rd Gerry DELIVERED other clothing, shoes etc. to the P.J.? The items photographed and listed as belonging to Gerry and Kate cannot possibly amount to the sum total of their clothing. It's obvious at a glance that certain clothing they possessed on May 4th is neither photographed nor itemized. eg. the grey hoodies, the jeans, Gerry's beige/grey cargo pants, Kate's running gear etc. The four boxes and two suitcases "delivered by Gerry on August 3rd" amounts to much more clothing than that shown in the file photos. Perhaps these others were examined, including clothing belonging to Madeleine, but since the dogs didn't react to them they are not included in the files? I do think the police would have been interested in Madeleine's clothing. They were already questioning what had happened after high tea to such an extent that David Payne felt the need to step forward and say he had seen Madeleine alive, well and happy after six-thirty.  

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by polyenne on 06.08.17 7:17

Rubber gloves ?

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Re; Madeleine McCann 3 May 2007?

Post by willowthewisp on 06.08.17 18:16

@polyenne wrote:Rubber gloves ?
Hi Polyenne,
Check out Jon Corners video,slow the video down,where Gerry is shown packing unpacking packages from the Renault,then make up your own mind as to what was recorded?
May be the Sunlight reacting to the Skin,but it does look like a protective Surgeons type of Glove on One hand,especially relevant to where the Dogs reacted to within the Renault,rented 25 days after Madeleine's recorded disappearance?
A CMMoM member may have access to it,Hie DE O.
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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by eliduf on 07.08.17 6:02

I also noticed Gerry seemed to be wearing rubber gloves, although being relatively new to the Forum I thought this would have been covered when the video became available so did not comment.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 07.08.17 12:16

@willowthewisp wrote:
@polyenne wrote:Rubber gloves ?
Hi Polyenne,
Check out Jon Corners video,slow the video down,where Gerry is shown packing unpacking packages from the Renault,then make up your own mind as to what was recorded?
May be the Sunlight reacting to the Skin,but it does look like a protective Surgeons type of Glove on One hand,especially relevant to where the Dogs reacted to within the Renault,rented 25 days after Madeleine's recorded disappearance?
A CMMoM member may have access to it,Hie DE O.
I've no desire to encourage speculation as to the whys and wherefores of a pair of rubber gloves but this video is worth watching in it's own right.  I think - I hope - it's already featured on the 'Video of the Day' thread.  If not, it blooming well soon will be!*

@ 27:00 minutes onwards..



Perhaps he has 'sensitive skin' big grin .  Personally, I think what you see are 'good quality wristbands', on sale exclusively at Ye Olde Shoppe findmadeleine.com.

*ETA:  Just checked, it is there on page 11 thumbsup.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 13.08.17 2:15

According to Dr. Amaral the P.J. were indeed most eager to examine Madeleine's clothing, especially what she had been wearing on May 3rd 2007 but were actively prevented from doing so by the interference of John Buck 

Form "The truth of the lie" by Dr. Amaral 

 "The McCanns are put up with David Payne. We want to search the accommodation of the family friends to try to pick up Madeleine’s clothes, especially those she was wearing on May 3rd at 5.35pm when she returned from the day centre with her mother and the twins. Evidently, this initiative is not widely supported. The British ambassador meets with the team directing the investigation. The political and the diplomatic seem to want to prevent us from freely doing our work.
– I’m sure this check is necessary.
– The clothes? Are you mad? if I understand you properly, you want to go into the apartment to take clothes to have them analysed?
– Yes. What’s the problem? It’s a perfectly normal procedure in cases like this.
– Of course, but with this media hype…I don’t think I have ever in my life seen so many journalists….And I didn’t come down in the last shower." 




It appears the P.J did not get access to Madeleine's clothing in May and even on August 2nd they were not among the items collected and photographed. Allegedly, the McCanns had clothing laundered shortly after Madeleine's disappearance. What a shame the P.J. were stymied by Buck. Who knows what items of Madeleine's clothing may have eventually been handed over and which might have conveniently vanished - like the pink blanket.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by HiDeHo on 13.08.17 5:27









Video starts at about 1.18.00 at the beginning of the clothes search.  This video is all known released videos of the dogs, but they were recorded every day, every minute for the entire week of searches.  Many hours of video.





Box label containing shoes and backpack




Suitcase label 




Suitcase contained many childrens clothes including these...





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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 13.08.17 11:51

@ HiDeHo Many thanks  roses for the above. I presume not all the clothes examined are captured on the videos as there are some we know they had which aren't shown. It certainly puts theories of cross contamination into doubt. How thorough Martin Grimes and his dogs were! Even the empty boxes were examined, without alerts.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by HiDeHo on 13.08.17 13:26

@Phoebe wrote:@ HiDeHo Many thanks  roses for the above. I presume not all the clothes examined are captured on the videos as there are some we know they had which aren't shown. It certainly puts theories of cross contamination into doubt. How thorough Martin Grimes and his dogs were! Even the empty boxes were examined, without alerts.

The end of the video shows lots more clothes in the suitcase ready to be laid out.






The person laying out the clothes appears to change gloves between each box





There were at least two boxes and two bags (including the suitcase) unopened towards
 the end of the video.






Eddie was taken all around the room before the suitcase was opened, likely to ensure there was no cadaver scent once the clothes had been removed.
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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by worriedmum on 13.08.17 19:07

I think it's interesting that the items in the photographs numbered 1,2and 3 were all alerted to. Were they packed together? The red T shirt I would expect to be Sean's, as there are other boys' clothes of the same make in the same size..
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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 13.08.17 23:13

@Phoebe wrote:According to Dr. Amaral the P.J. were indeed most eager to examine Madeleine's clothing, especially what she had been wearing on May 3rd 2007 but were actively prevented from doing so by the interference of John Buck
The subject matter I thought to be the inspection by the dogs Eddie and Keela of items collected from the McCanns rented villa in August 2007 - as confirmed by HiDeHo's input.

Amaral, at the time of the Ambassador's interference, was working on the premise that Madeleine had died in apartment 5a on the night of 3rd May 2007, as a result of a fatal accident.  This occurred shortly after Madeleine's alleged disappearance, between the McCanns leaving apartment 5a and moving into the rented villa - the location from which the boxes of McCann personal items were taken for examination by Eddie and Keela.

A child disappears, it's routine policing to want to know what the child was wearing at the time of the disappearance.  Amaral, after being cajoled into thinking Madeleine had been abducted or wandered off looking for her parents, then theorized that Madeleine had died by accident in apartment 5a - stands to reason her clothing would be required for analysis.  It also stands to reason that whoever was present or otherwise aware of the demise would dispose of any clothing that might incriminate them, be it the victims or their own.

Amaral, as I say, at the time it was first hinted that Madeleine might have died in apartment 5a, wanted access to items of clothing, not only belonging to Madeleine but anything that might assist the investigation.  Routine policing. 

The clothing etc. taken from the rented villa were examined by a) a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood and b) a dog trained to alert to the scent of cadavar.  As I said originally, Madeleine could only have been wearing one outfit (pyjamas or otherwise) when she met her fate, that would have been disposed of immediately after the event.  The items collected for examination by the dogs would most definitely not include anything belonging to Madeleine that might incriminate.

The PJ investigation had developed considerably between the McCanns temporary stay in the Paynes holiday accommodation and the collection of items from the McCanns rented villa.  The dogs of course were deployed on the recommendation of Mark Harrison, following his visit to Praia da Luz and his comprehensive analysis of the crime and resultant report.  The dogs however, can only alert to the scent of blood or cadavar  - unfortunately they can't identify the crime committed.  On public record, the McCanns friend Jon Corner, said the McCanns had a machine load of wet washing when the PJ arrived at the villa to collect the clothing for the dogs inspection - they apparently had a prior tip-off, hence the delay with the trip to Heulva.

Amaral's theory and his reference to collecting clothing from the Paynes apartment very early in the investigation has no direct relation to the collection of clothing from the villa for inspection by Eddie and Keela.  You can't keep shifting the scene around to defend your opinion.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by BlueBag on 14.08.17 7:30

Did the clothes in "the last photo" turn up anywhere?

Did the dogs get near them?
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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Phoebe on 14.08.17 10:24

@BlueBag wrote:Did the clothes in "the last photo" turn up anywhere?

Did the dogs get near them?
This is what I'm wondering too. While there is no knowing all the clothes Madeleine had for that holiday there is evidence of a few outfits - the pink trousers and hoodie from the playground, the tennis outfit and the "last picture" pink smock and trousers. If any of these were missing at the time of examination or had drawn alerts it might have given an indication of when she died, (not the actual day, but the fact that it was not at night). Only the McCanns and friends time Madeleine's "disappearance" as having occurred at night and I see no reason to believe them.Madeleine could have died at any time if one believes she was not seen after the Sunday. I wonder how cadaver odour came to be on the red T shirt which seems to be a boys? Was Madeleine wearing it? Keela did not alert to it so there was no blood trace.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 14.08.17 12:50

@BlueBag wrote:Did the clothes in "the last photo" turn up anywhere?

Did the dogs get near them?
The McCanns were noticeably quiet about Madeleine's holiday wardrobe weren't they?  Apart from Kate McCann drooling over picture perfect Madeleine in her new holiday outfit, the adorable tennis shorts and new holiday sandals and not forgetting Madeleine pyjamas paraded around Europe, said to be similar to the pair she was wearing when she disappeared.  Kate McCann hawked cuddlecat around Portugal and Europe/North Africa - a fragrant newly washed cuddlecat as Madeleine's prized possession - didn't Madeleine's clothes hold a secret place in the mother's heart?  Has she built a Rothley shrine of Madeleine's belongings hidden amidst the scores of unopened presents waiting for her return?  Where is poor old exploited cuddlecat these days?

More importantly, the PJ were very anxious to learn what Gerry McCann was wearing on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, in addition to the wife and the rest of the group.  This information was never forthcoming, at least not with any definitive detail.  Although the PJ were beginning to smell a rat, such a minor annoyance was easily overcome by outside influence promoting the abduction theory - looking for an abductor and a three year old child in a pair of pyjamas.  Even the twins attire on the night of 3rd May 2007, might have been of use to the investigation but what did they find when photographic evidence was being prepared on that night?  Yes that's right - empty cots!!!

Of course,  if one subscribes to the reasoned hypothosis that Madeleine met her fate earlier in the week (like wot I do), then no shortage of time to attend to detail such as disposal of incriminating evidence.  It would have been game over if Eddie and Keela ever got a whiff of Gerald's trousers - whereas Kate McCann's harlequin trews ever so slightly gave the game away.  Tis no wonder the McCanns were/are so afeared of Eddie and Keela. 

Remember - there is no such thing as the perfect crime!  The perfect cover-up maybe..

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by worriedmum on 14.08.17 13:45

Phoebe '' I wonder how cadaver odour came to be on the red T shirt which seems to be a boys?''

Transference? Other possibilities are rather worrying...
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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by RothleyGirl on 16.01.18 10:31

Hi everyone
New to the forum so hope I have posted in correct section. I'm sure my comment must have been discussed before but hey-ho!
Just wanted to say I have been reading all your posts and find them very interesting. I have always thought throughout this whole debacle, why did Gerry have to research the reliability of Cadaver dogs over the internet if he had nothing to worry about with regard to his/their innocence? Surely if you had nothing to hide why would this be necessary, after all dogs are being used in medical research for detecting all types of illness and he would know how reliable they were, even 10 years ago! His reaction to the comment by Sandra the Portugese interviewer put him on high alert. That did make me sit up and think. 
 I feel that like all of you something is not right with this case. However, never mind what all of us may think they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but I would like to see them questioned again as I understand the Leicestershire police did not do so? 

My present stance on all this is that I have mixed emotions depending upon my mood, where I change my opinion almost daily. I cannot in my head totally rule out, even with all the 'evidence' the possibility that she was abducted strange though it seems.
I know from experience how easy it was for a burglar to steal my purse while I was in another room and be in and out in seconds. I stupidly left my door unlocked giving the thief easy access. The police  found no trace of DNA, fingerprints on the door knobs, or on my purse, which I managed to find chucked in a hedge nearby, so likening it to what they say happened to Madeleine is it remotely possible? As far as evidence goes any DNA would have been lost on the evening in question when every man and his dog was trailing through the apartment. On the conflicting side I am confused as to what the dogs actually found and how this was interpreted, there are many conflicting opinions on the web.
Hope this makes some kind of sense!


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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by nglfi on 16.01.18 11:39

Hi Rothleygirl,
It seems like over time a deliberate misinterpretation of the law was used to class the dogs as 'incredibly unreliable'. We all know how amazing dogs are at scenting all manner of items, even money. In the Mccann case, the dogs clearly signalled blood and cadaver odour on a variety of objects belonging to the McCanns, along with their hire car, hired after the disappearance and of course the apartment.
Gerry argued, IMO, that they were unreliable by using the fact that the dogs are unable to tell us WHICH cadaver they are alerting to, and WHOSE blood. Therefore evidentially in a court of law, the dog alerts alone are not enough. Over time this seems to have morphed into 'unreliable' which is funny because I do believe UK police still use dogs for a number of types of crime.
No person ever died in apartment 5A prior to these events and Madeleine is the only missing person in connection with it, so the facts speak for themselves.
Like you at times, I find myself wondering how the whole thing is possible, ie that on the surface it is so clear that the McCanns are culpable, yet they are still free. Also why they continue to step into the limelight voluntarily after having 'got away with it'
But in my opinion, taking all the facts of the case into consideration that we have, it is still by far the most likely explanation, by a long way. For them to be completely innocent would take the collusion of two police forces, fabrication of an awful lot of circumstantial evidence, and the facts/indications the McCanns themselves have given us about Madeleine's fate would have to be some sort of monumental joke. And there would be no reason to do that at all. On the other hand, a cover up has many possible purposes and motives.

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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 16.01.18 11:46

@RothleyGirl wrote:On the other hand I am confused as to what the dogs actually found and how this was interpreted there are many conflicting opinions on the web.

Hello RothleyGirl and welcome to the forum howdy !

Pay no heed to what you read on the internet - there is much cajoling and many skewed interpretations and falsehoods afloat as regards Eddie and Keela. You can't go wrong if you start with the PJ files and ignore anything reported by the UK press..

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/FORENSIC_INDEX.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm



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Re: Madeleine McCann - the evidence of the cadaver dogs

Post by Verdi on 16.01.18 21:29

@nglfi wrote:
Gerry argued, IMO, that they were unreliable by using the fact that the dogs are unable to tell us WHICH cadaver they are alerting to, and WHOSE blood. Therefore evidentially in a court of law, the dog alerts alone are not enough. .

This is of course true, Martin Grimes stressed the point over and over again in his reports - no one can say he deliberately tried to deceive as regards the dog inspections.

What Gerry McCann failed to acknowledge, having painstakingly tried to discredit trained specialist dogs by researching the Zapata case in the US of A in order to prove his vapid point - the simple fact that a subsequent confession proved the dogs to be right,

Oooops - embarrassing!  I don't recall Professor McCann ever mentioning the subject again.

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