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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Mm11

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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by HKP on 25.06.15 17:08

@PeterMac. Thanks, a bit sanity added to the debate
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Post by Jill Havern on 25.06.15 17:21

whodunnit wrote:It seems we are being told in no uncertain terms that an error is a 'fact' and that there is 'no argument'.

I'd like to know if poster BlueBag is a mod and if he has the authority to shut down this thread. Because if not, his aggressive attitude + his post count will surely have the effect shutting it down if mods and admins do not clarify the issue soon. I am only a guest here and will by all means go elsewhere to have this conversation but as the largest and most active Madeleine forum I think it matters a great deal whether CMOMM will allow this debate to continue or not.
BlueBag is not a mod and does not have the authority to shut down this thread.

The thread is staying put until we know for sure, one way or another, what the score is with WBM.

I asked Steve Marsden yesterday to come and comment on this thread and he said he would.

Haven't seen him here yet, though.

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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by whodunnit on 25.06.15 17:31

Thank you for your reply, Get'emGonçalo.
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Post by marxman on 25.06.15 17:35

The Wayback machine is not the only internet archiving machine. Therefore, is it possible that an alternative device similar to the WBM has recorded the same information on 30th April 07??
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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by PeterMac on 25.06.15 17:47

I have found
http://www.webcitation.org/
but can't make it work.
Any specialists out there ?

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Post by whodunnit on 25.06.15 17:54

Mr. PM, WebCite search returns this response: We do not have any snapshots of the given URL..*link to ceop pages*

So it was either never saved by this service or someone requested to have it removed.
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Post by Guest on 25.06.15 18:33

@BlueBag wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:I don;t know enough about this to get involved, but for posterity I have just copied this from Twitter
Saved from Whooshing !

Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 <a href=Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 33_j10" />
That's because the index hasn't be rebuilt yet.

And (without checking it) I presume the entry prior to April 30th has a "Next capture" date of 30th Apr.

This would explain why one cannot go back from 13 May.  You can, but the system then re-directs you forward to 13 May, making it impossible to jump back via 30th April.  And the same explains why going forward works.  One moves from the prior save to 30th April, but the system then re-directs to 13 May, making it look like this is seamless.

And when the re-index is done, both forward and back will work properly, and neither entry will point to Apr 30.  And the calendar will not show a blue dot for Apr 30.
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Post by Guest on 25.06.15 18:43

For those of you who think this incident is significant, you may wish to keep checking the 30 April date entry until it disappears from the calendar.  The date at which it disappears will give more info to debate, as it is when the WM gets re-indexed.

For many reasons, I don't think it is worth my time testing out when the 30 April bit disappears from the calendar.
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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by whodunnit on 25.06.15 18:56

@Elça Craig---  "And (without checking it) I presume the entry prior to April 30th has a "Next capture" date of 30th Apr."


Yes, very tellingly the 'next capture' date on the April 27th homepage capture is, you guessed it, April 30.

So again, someone explain to me how this page was captured in October but misfiled to April when the prev/next capture date contradicts this assertion? How did the May 13 capture of mccann.html come to have a previous capture date of April 30? ALL of this sequential coding, in addition to the capture date codes themselves, is wrong? Every bit of it? It becomes absurd.

April 30th capture dates are all self corroborating--verified from every direction.
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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by PeterMac on 25.06.15 19:05

whodunnit wrote:Mr. PM, WebCite search returns this response: We do not have any snapshots of the given URL..*link to ceop pages*

So it was either never saved by this service or someone requested to have it removed.

Thanks for doing that. I am out of my depth on this, and have to rely on others, plus a bit of common sense and logic.
Is there a reason why another archiving site would NOT record this.

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Post by SixMillionQuid on 25.06.15 19:14

@SixMillionQuid wrote:So Wayback did not archive the result of webcrawl of the CEOP website on 30 April 2007 with mccann.html as the filename?

If all mccann related web pages were created after this date then I'm struggling to understand how the Wayback machine 'invented' the 30 April 2007 archive date.

No takers then?

Why would the Wayback machine backdate a webcrawl back to the 30 April 2007?

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Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007" - Page 39 Empty Re: Claim by 'Stevo' - "CEOP show Maddie is missing on 30th April 2007"

Post by HKP on 25.06.15 19:18

@SMQ. No takers because nobody has an answer other than 'it can't be right', and repeat a hundred times.
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Post by cloak'ndagger on 25.06.15 20:00

HKP wrote:@SMQ. No takers because nobody has an answer other than 'it can't be right', and repeat a hundred times.
The time has to be constant .It is a robot.  It cannot crawl [grab] material relating to the future.
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Post by whodunnit on 25.06.15 20:14

The arguments more or less boils down to: the WBM captured a file that lacks any evidence whatsoever of ever having been captured [Oct. 23-24] and erroneously filed it away in a file that never existed in the first place. [April 30] dontgetit
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Post by Nuala on 25.06.15 20:16

@ PeterMac

Is there a reason why another archiving site would NOT record this.

It's hit and miss, not everything was crawled by some of the archives, particularly the further back you go.


@ Cloak'nDagger

The time has to be constant .It is a robot.  It cannot crawl [grab] material relating to the future.

No, but it can grab material, store it, then add the wrong date when it's retrieved.
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Post by HKP on 25.06.15 20:28

@cloak'ndagger. The McCann. htm had no future material.
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Post by SixMillionQuid on 25.06.15 21:04

@Nuala wrote:@ PeterMac

Is there a reason why another archiving site would NOT record this.

It's hit and miss, not everything was crawled by some of the archives, particularly the further back you go.


@ Cloak'nDagger

The time has to be constant .It is a robot.  It cannot crawl [grab] material relating to the future.

No, but it can grab material, store it, then add the wrong date when it's retrieved.

So the first page Steve Marsden identified (mccann.html) had the wrong date when the record was retrieved i.e. the correct date is some other date after 30 April 2007?

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Post by Nuala on 25.06.15 21:29

@ SixMillionQuid

So the first page Steve Marsden identified (mccann.html) had the wrong date when the record was retrieved i.e. the correct date is some other date after 30 April 2007?

That's what Wayback says, and it's what I believe happened as well.

It just so happens that the crawl date span for that page is April 30th 2007 to Sep 4th 2009, so it appears to me that it erroneously defaulted to the first date in the span on retrieval.
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Post by SixMillionQuid on 25.06.15 21:42

@Nuala wrote:@ SixMillionQuid

So the first page Steve Marsden identified (mccann.html) had the wrong date when the record was retrieved i.e. the correct date is some other date after 30 April 2007?

That's what Wayback says, and it's what I believe happened as well.

It just so happens that the crawl date span for that page is April 30th 2007 to Sep 4th 2009, so it appears to me that it erroneously defaulted to the first date in the span on retrieval.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070430115803/http://www.ceop.gov.uk/mccann.html

So 20070430115803  in the URL is a retrieval datestamp? I thought it was the date the page was first archived.

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Post by Richard D. Hall on 25.06.15 22:02

Is there some sort of fanfare if the thread reaches 100 pages?
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Post by Nuala on 25.06.15 22:03

@ SixMillionQuid

So 20070430115803  in the URL is a retrieval datestamp? I thought it was the date the page was first archived.

The URL isn't created until and unless the page is retrieved. At that point the URL is created with a date corresponding to the date Wayback also adds to the HTML coding of the page itself.

That date is retrieved from Wayback's archive database (for want of a better word) and is supposed to represent the date Wayback's crawler crawled the page, but nothing is 100% perfect.

Indeed Wayback makes it clear that if the date of a page is important for legal reasons it is up to the person wanting that proof to prove it.

In other words, Wayback makes no claims for a date to be absolutely correct, none at all.

Which is hardly surprising. Software is only as good as those that program it, so there will always be times when it doesn't work properly. It's not some infallible thing that is never wrong.

As we all know smilie
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Post by HKP on 25.06.15 22:05

@SMS. It‘s the archive date, not retrieval
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Post by HKP on 25.06.15 22:08

Looks like we're moving into 485 billion questionable dates territory; laughable
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Post by PeterMac on 25.06.15 22:14

HKP wrote:Looks like we're moving into 485 billion questionable dates territory; laughable

It makes the "Date stamp" of 3/5/7 on the Last Photo 'LUDICROUS"
Everyone knows that was a forgery ! (Probably !)

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Post by worriedmum on 25.06.15 22:17

At the risk of appearing gormless here, can some-one please spell out to  me , in non-technical language,what  WBM say has happened and what the alternative possibilities are?
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