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Blood spray

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Re: Blood spray

Post by truthfultiger on 09.02.15 6:43

I did.tt realise that both dogs alerted to the key. That is interesting. In theory I suppose it is possible that cadaverine was still present in addition to what seems I be gerry's blood. It does seem more likely that they were both alerting to the blood though. Perhaps he cut his finger while filleting the sea bass. :)

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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 7:57

I'm not sure about the word 'cadaverine' Cadaver dogs detect dead bodies. The smell they search for includes;
putrescine and cadaverine, which are the compounds which make the human body smell in death.
Read more: http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/5-weird-things-that-happen-after-you-die#ixzz3REM12m4p



But those two compounds are not the whole story;
Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html



So the dogs find those two 'smells' but there seems also to be something else which identifies the scent as that of a human dead body. This scent has not been identified and reproduced, only rhe dogs know what it is;
‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams. ‘Understanding this helps to improve their work in the field and with training aids.'
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/changing-smell-of-corpses-measures-time-of-death/



The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
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Re: Blood spray

Post by worriedmum on 09.02.15 8:19

Yes but surely no-one would really say that the dogs were alerting to saliva  -  duh
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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 8:25

@worriedmum wrote:Yes but surely no-one would really say that the dogs were alerting to saliva  -  duh
Obviously not. I was pointing out that neither do they alert to cadaverine, it is just one of the compounds which make up 'the smell of death'.
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Re: Blood spray

Post by worriedmum on 09.02.15 11:44

Oh yes, sorry, I have just re-read the quote about putrescine and cadaverine being only two of the compounds-and other bit that says only the dogs know what else gives it the unique 'smell of death'

So amazing aren't they? You can understand why they are used to find dead bodies or places where they have been. They can even detect the smell when it is below running water! (I think there was a thread on this , maybe some-one can help?)

So do you have any suggestions about the 'alert'  to Sean's t shirt and Kate's trousers, G-unit?
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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 13:00

I can tell you what Martin Grimes said;

The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I 
am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ 
officers present. 

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent' 
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this 
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. 



And at the McCann's villa;


The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in 
the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened 
separately. 

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent 
contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this 
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. 





My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is 
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however 
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a 
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence 
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with 
corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm



Rogatory questions;


'With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver' 
OR
Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''

Grimes' reply;
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
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Re: Blood spray

Post by worriedmum on 09.02.15 13:28

?So if there was a possibility that  there was transferal, where does the original cadaver odour come from ?

And why on two items in the box, not everything?
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Joss on 09.02.15 13:59

Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.

The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.

The E.V.R.D. will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof; deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.

The dog will locate human cadaver in water either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.

The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations. This may be completed by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent samples being taken on sterile gauze pads and the scent check being completed by scent discrimination exercise at a suitable venue.

The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to identify the exhaust of the scent through fissures in bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce the size of the search area.
The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where controls may be included to increase assurity.

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a ST100 Scent Transference Unit. The unit is designed in a two-part design. The main body is a battery operated electrical device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the ST100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through
ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a given area where the S 100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert deployment. At all other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.

Operational use of the ST100 is in a developmental stage.

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thiry-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.

It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.

The assets may be deployed upon request of a Senior Investigating Oficer (S.I.O.) following consultation with the appropriate S.M.E.'s and advisors.

The project team makes decisions on suitability for case deployment. Due to the very nature of the dog's presence, cross contamination and preservation of vital evidence at crime scenes must be considered prior to any deployment in consultation with the senior crime scene coordinator.

Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed mutually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these dogs are the only assets of their type in the world. Training records are maintained and are available if required.
POINTS TO ASSIST

Whilst it is stated that the E.V.RD. is originally trained using pig the following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

P In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

> The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'

P Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence / anecdotal witness accounts.

> The dog, a scavenger, uses its olfactory system to locate food sources, identify its young and other pack members, enemies and predators over large distances. It can track its prey identifying a direction of travel. This entails the dog being able to discriminate the time difference between footsteps using the sense of smell !

> The dog is an animal that's basic function in the wild is to scavenge food and procreate.

> In a domestic environment it responds to humans as a food source and bonds in the manner it would with other pack members.

> The reward of food and protection / close comfort provides the basis for a system to be adopted where the dog shows a willingness to respond in response to the reward. We are thereby able to 'train' the dog using conditioned responses to stimuli. Repetition and reward then ensure efficiency. Positive and negative reinforcement then shape the required behaviour in their role.

P Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response.

> Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour shaping and enforcement regime produces an asset that does not false alert unlike electronic devices.

> Pseudo scent is a chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some trainers have had limited success when tested on my dogs they showed no interest.
> Operational finds backed by forensic corroboration have shown that the system adopted by me in the training of the dogs is both effective and efficient.

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100% of the animals alerted to the medium.

> The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.

> The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile compounds" that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time.

> 'Dead body scent' cannot be removed by cleaning. The compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to separate odour and identify specific compounds' and mixes to cellular level. A similar system would be a device similar to an electron microscope.

> In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.

>The dog's olfactory system is so highly developed that it continues to be efficient at cellular level:

Distinguish the time difference between footprints to give a direction of travel.

Distinguish live from dead within minutes.
Distinguish human blood from other species where the chemical constituent parts are identical.

Identify the EXACT location of blood so small in size that when forensically recovered will NOT provide a full DNA strand despite low copy DNA analysis.

> Scientists accept that there is no forensic testing equipment as discriminatory as the dogs olfactory system at this present moment in time.

>All research and training of the dogs within this program is completed in conjunction with a team of scientists for differing fields of expertise. They have in the past and will continue to endorse the dogs used within the field of homicide investigations.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
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Re: Blood spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 14:39

@worriedmum wrote:?So if there was a possibility that  there was transferal, where does the original cadaver odour come from ?

And why on two items in the box, not everything?
I have no idea. It's a huge coincidence that the dogs only alerted to places where the McCanns had been and to their belongings, though. I don't know if samples which the FSS tested still exist, I suspect they were destroyed;

- Blood samples.
- Saliva samples.
- Swabs from body orifices.
- Other swabs bearing potentially hazardous material.
- Vomit, faeces, urine, etc.

The above list includes perishable personal samples, the destruction of which is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm


The police could have asked for the samples to be retained, but I can't find anything that says they did so.


 It is unfortunate if all the evidence was destroyed, as in the Stephen Lawrence case all it took was a 'microscopic' bloodstain discovered when the original clothing was retested to convict the accused.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8984739/Stephen-Lawrence-Forensic.html
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Joss on 09.02.15 15:48

@G-Unit wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:?So if there was a possibility that  there was transferal, where does the original cadaver odour come from ?

And why on two items in the box, not everything?
I have no idea. It's a huge coincidence that the dogs only alerted to places where the McCanns had been and to their belongings, though. I don't know if samples which the FSS tested still exist, I suspect they were destroyed;

- Blood samples.
- Saliva samples.
- Swabs from body orifices.
- Other swabs bearing potentially hazardous material.
- Vomit, faeces, urine, etc.

The above list includes perishable personal samples, the destruction of which is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm


The police could have asked for the samples to be retained, but I can't find anything that says they did so.


 It is unfortunate if all the evidence was destroyed, as in the Stephen Lawrence case all it took was a 'microscopic' bloodstain discovered when the original clothing was retested to convict the accused.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8984739/Stephen-Lawrence-Forensic.html
I think i have read where FSS destroyed the samples, but would have to look it up. Weren't the FSS closed down?
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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 15:57

They were indeed.
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@jorb re blood spray not in 5A but death scent in 27 Rua Das Flores

Post by Guest on 09.02.15 20:38

"So cross-contaminated while TM used the Scenic to transport a large sports bag (containing a small body) perhaps?"

The McCanns might or might not have transported a large sports bag.  I cannot say.  By the time of the rogatory interviews in England, the T7 (that excludes the McCanns) were asked about a tennis kit bag or similar sized bag.  Essentially, they were asked if they saw the McCanns with a bag large enough to dispose of Madeleine.

The answer was no.  The McCanns used the Mark Warner racquets.

No large tennis bag.  No blood spray.
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Ayniia on 09.02.15 20:50

@Joss wrote:
I think i have read where FSS destroyed the samples, but would have to look it up. Weren't the FSS closed down?
But GA said recently that the PJ still have hair samples (I presume from the boot of the scenic)

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Re: Blood spray

Post by tungsten tel on 09.02.15 20:56

Elça Craig wrote:"So cross-contaminated while TM used the Scenic to transport a large sports bag (containing a small body) perhaps?"

The McCanns might or might not have transported a large sports bag.  I cannot say.  By the time of the rogatory interviews in England, the T7 (that excludes the McCanns) were asked about a tennis kit bag or similar sized bag.  Essentially, they were asked if they saw the McCanns with a bag large enough to dispose of Madeleine.

The answer was no.  The McCanns used the Mark Warner racquets.

No large tennis bag.   
Would that be the large blue bag pictured in the apartment wardrobe . Oh no obviously not Elca . Nothing to see move on and don't trip over that large blue bag on the way out folks .......

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Re: Blood spray

Post by Guest on 09.02.15 20:58

@worriedmum wrote:Elca Craig quote

''.  The central point is that both dogs reacted to the Scenic key, and whether it was decomposed or deteriorated blood is neither here nor there.  The source was Gerry McCann, who is not a cadaver.  Therefore calling it a cadaver product is nonsense.'' unquote


How do you know the source was 'Gerry McCann'?

It is in the PJ files as one of the things the FSS could be clear about.

Point 1.  Both dogs alerted to the key.  That strongly suggests human blood decomposing (or deteriorating, or whatever).

Point 2.  The FSS identified the 'cellular material' on the key as Gerry McCanns, who is definitely not dead.

The FSS evidence is that the alert from the key was due to something from Gerald McCann.  Take your pick - FSS says cellular material - Keela if trusted says human blood.  Not Madeleine but Gerry.
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Guest on 09.02.15 21:30

@tungsten tel wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:"So cross-contaminated while TM used the Scenic to transport a large sports bag (containing a small body) perhaps?"

The McCanns might or might not have transported a large sports bag.  I cannot say.  By the time of the rogatory interviews in England, the T7 (that excludes the McCanns) were asked about a tennis kit bag or similar sized bag.  Essentially, they were asked if they saw the McCanns with a bag large enough to dispose of Madeleine.

The answer was no.  The McCanns used the Mark Warner racquets.

No large tennis bag.   
Would that be the large blue bag pictured in the apartment wardrobe . Oh no obviously not Elca . Nothing to see move on and don't trip over that large blue bag on the way out folks .......

The large blue bag pictured in which apartment wardrobe?

Here is the photo of 5A on early 4 May 2007.

Wardrobes.  No large blue bag.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg
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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 09.02.15 22:06

Matthew and Rachael Oldfield took their own tennis racquets. I wonder if they had a bag? 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

The FSS may have destroyed the samples or the police may have taken them back, which was allowed.
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Ayniia on 09.02.15 22:25

Elça Craig wrote:
@tungsten tel wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:"So cross-contaminated while TM used the Scenic to transport a large sports bag (containing a small body) perhaps?"

The McCanns might or might not have transported a large sports bag.  I cannot say.  By the time of the rogatory interviews in England, the T7 (that excludes the McCanns) were asked about a tennis kit bag or similar sized bag.  Essentially, they were asked if they saw the McCanns with a bag large enough to dispose of Madeleine.

The answer was no.  The McCanns used the Mark Warner racquets.

No large tennis bag.   
Would that be the large blue bag pictured in the apartment wardrobe . Oh no obviously not Elca . Nothing to see move on and don't trip over that large blue bag on the way out folks .......

The large blue bag pictured in which apartment wardrobe?

Here is the photo of 5A on early 4 May 2007.

Wardrobes.  No large blue bag.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg

But the bag was there on the 3rd. Proven by pictures. Later Gerry denied owning such a bag...

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Re: Blood spray

Post by worriedmum on 09.02.15 22:56

Elça Craig wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:Elca Craig quote

''.  The central point is that both dogs reacted to the Scenic key, and whether it was decomposed or deteriorated blood is neither here nor there.  The source was Gerry McCann, who is not a cadaver.  Therefore calling it a cadaver product is nonsense.'' unquote


How do you know the source was 'Gerry McCann'?

It is in the PJ files as one of the things the FSS could be clear about.

Point 1.  Both dogs alerted to the key.  That strongly suggests human blood decomposing (or deteriorating, or whatever).

Point 2.  The FSS identified the 'cellular material' on the key as Gerry McCanns, who is definitely not dead.

The FSS evidence is that the alert from the key was due to something from Gerald McCann.  Take your pick - FSS says cellular material - Keela if trusted says human blood.  Not Madeleine but Gerry.''


Isn't there at least one other possibility?

That there was a cadaver smell, AND blood, AND Gerry MCCann's DNA?   
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 09.02.15 23:04

Elça Craig wrote:
@tungsten tel wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:"So cross-contaminated while TM used the Scenic to transport a large sports bag (containing a small body) perhaps?"

The McCanns might or might not have transported a large sports bag.  I cannot say.  By the time of the rogatory interviews in England, the T7 (that excludes the McCanns) were asked about a tennis kit bag or similar sized bag.  Essentially, they were asked if they saw the McCanns with a bag large enough to dispose of Madeleine.

The answer was no.  The McCanns used the Mark Warner racquets.

No large tennis bag.   
Would that be the large blue bag pictured in the apartment wardrobe . Oh no obviously not Elca . Nothing to see move on and don't trip over that large blue bag on the way out folks .......

The large blue bag pictured in which apartment wardrobe?

Here is the photo of 5A on early 4 May 2007.

Wardrobes.  No large blue bag.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2311.jpg
There's a whole thread on the topic on this forum if you wish to sharpen up your research on this matter. 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t794-eureka-the-missing-blue-tennis-bag-by-viv
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Re: Blood spray

Post by Joss on 10.02.15 8:15

@Ayniia wrote:
@Joss wrote:
I think i have read where FSS destroyed the samples, but would have to look it up. Weren't the FSS closed down?
But GA said recently that the PJ still have hair samples (I presume from the boot of the scenic)
Yes i remember reading that too. But that is the PJ have some samples left, not the U.K.
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Blood Spray

Post by G-Unit on 10.02.15 9:03

Aha!  
From October 2014;
Scotland Yard detectives secretly met the head of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences earlier this month.
The centre, near Lisbon, holds crucial Portuguese police evidence linked to the three-year-old British girl’s disappearance in 2007 from the resort of Praia da Luz in the Algarve.
The Metropolitan Police officers have now asked to retest some of the hairs in the hope of finding fresh evidence of what happened to her.
The Ooperation Grange team also want to do tests on curtains that were hanging in the Algarve apartment when Maddie went missing.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-hope-advances-4528079
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