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***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:45 pm

Exactly, Bluebag. It is unfortunate that this case has been used as an example by various groups to support their particular viewpoints. The case is not 'open and shut', and for all those who are howling for Evans' blood there are others who are uneasy about the guilty verdict. 


Money may have become involved after Evans' release as he attempted to continue his football career, but is that relevant?


For me, this is about the law on rape. The Evans case demonstrates the difficulties involved in applying that law to real life situations. It may be that they interpreted it correctly, but i just wanted to highlight how young men need to know exactly what that law says.
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Julchen on Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:05 pm

What really gets me about this case is not the question whether he is or is not guilty or to what extend the woman may be guilty, part-guilty or completely innocent, but this witch hunt.
He has done half of his sentence in prison and would not have been released  on a licence if his behaviour during his time in prison had shown any hint of him being a danger to the public or women.

IMO (ha, here is my IMO!!!!), the aim of these witch hunts is to destroy him or his life completely. Let's face it, he won't get a job as a professor at a university or become an astro scientist.....he became a footballer because that is his best asset (I could add a personal opinion....I won't). Why not let him go back to his "profession"?
I'm quite convinced whatever he is going to do, he won't be able to, in the end, because of some fanatics (all -isms are bad!! Feminism is another- ism!!).Painter? Gardener? Window cleaner? Not very likely.

Actually, the more I hear about these campaigns, the more the name Brenda comes to my mind.


(All IMO of course)
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:18 pm

Yes, not only has he received a 5 year sentence and been put on the sex offender's register for life, the 'isms' want to stop him doing his job because they think footballers are role models. Are they? Are youngsters that stupid?
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by secrets and lies on Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:37 pm

It is well known that the family and friends of Ched Evans waged a campaign of fear and hate against the victim using social media.

She was named and apparently has had to move home several times.

Not all the information in this case has been made available to the public, one assumes, but the jury who convicted this man, most likely, had access to more evidence than has been released into the public domain.

After this appeal by Ched Evans failed.

It is known that after the rape, he left by a fire escape and had two friends on watch outside while he abused this girl with apparently one attempting to film for posterity.

He is now on remand having presumably exhibited good behaviour but his sentence is not complete and includes his continued "good behaviour" and being "rehabilitated". 

To stand by and allow his victim to be threatened, bully and harassed in this way, after what he has already done, does not, to me, suggests a person who needs our sympathy or the benefit of any doubt. Could this be described as "good behaviour"?
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by biggles on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:13 pm

@secrets and lies wrote:It is well known that the family and friends of Ched Evans waged a campaign of fear and hate against the victim using social media.

It is? Where is this reported? Internet trolls for sure have harassed the poor woman. How do you draw the conclusion that Evans or his family is behind this 'campaign'? If you read (please do) Evan's website, you will see that he denounces such behaviour. 

She was named and apparently has had to move home several times.

Not all the information in this case has been made available to the public, one assumes, but the jury who convicted this man, most likely, had access to more evidence than has been released into the public domain.

That's a whole lot of assumptions just there.. Evans' website lists 'key and undisputed facts' - I suggest that this is a good starting point to base any form of critical analysis of the situation.

After this appeal by Ched Evans failed.

It is known that after the rape, he left by a fire escape and had two friends on watch outside while he abused this girl with apparently one attempting to film for posterity.

There's no law against any of these things. It is grubby, shameful behaviour by all involved, but it is perfectly legal. Please do read Evan's account of the evening.

He is now on remand having presumably exhibited good behaviour but his sentence is not complete and includes his continued "good behaviour" and being "rehabilitated". 

To stand by and allow his victim to be threatened, bully and harassed in this way, after what he has already done, does not, to me, suggests a person who needs our sympathy or the benefit of any doubt. Could this be described as "good behaviour"?

He has not allowed his 'victim' to be threatened, bullied or harassed. His lawyers have instructed him to remain silent.

Please read the comments in bold (above), and also please do take a moment to reflect on the article I posted earlier. Here it is again:

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/ched-evans-not-the-account-youre-being-given-by-the-mainstream-media/

Evan's website - http://chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts

Evans has a right to appeal his conviction (as does every single person living in this society - no matter what your opinion of them are).

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by secrets and lies on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:38 pm

Biggles, I do not need to "critically analyse" anything. Ched Evans has been convicted of rape and until he has some new evidence to support his innocence I am happy that justice was served by the jury who convicted him. If i do assume that other evidence may have been submitted to the jury before the reached the conclusion they did, this does not change the out come in any way. It was merely a comment.

As far as I am aware his website is run by his family with the express intention of clearing his name. Both they, and he, have stood by while this girl has been subjected to unprecedented levels of cyber abuse, following the trauma of rape, without at any point asking the trolls you mention to "back off".

Does this indicate their tacit approval of such actions? I would strongly feel that it does.

Despite the fact they they believe he is innocent, wouldn't it show some compassion and a little dignity on their part to at least attempt to "call off the dogs"?

Additionally Evans has not shown one iota of remorse for his actions. Has not acknowledged any blame he may carry in this case even if he believes he is not, technically, a rapist.
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by biggles on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:44 pm

@secrets and lies wrote:Biggles, I do not need to "critically analyse" anything.

Did you read either of the links I provided?

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by secrets and lies on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:50 pm

Yep, I did actually. Primarily out of curiosity.

A Jilly Cooper quote about "most sexual voyages sailing upon a sea of alcohol". Classy.
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:57 pm

@secrets and lies wrote:Biggles, I do not need to "critically analyse" anything. Ched Evans has been convicted of rape and until he has some new evidence to support his innocence I am happy that justice was served by the jury who convicted him. If i do assume that other evidence may have been submitted to the jury before the reached the conclusion they did, this does not change the out come in any way. It was merely a comment.

As far as I am aware his website is run by his family with the express intention of clearing his name. Both they, and he, have stood by while this girl has been subjected to unprecedented levels of cyber abuse, following the trauma of rape, without at any point asking the trolls you mention to "back off".

Does this indicate their tacit approval of such actions? I would strongly feel that it does.

Despite the fact they they believe he is innocent, wouldn't it show some compassion and a little dignity on their part to at least attempt to "call off the dogs"?

Additionally Evans has not shown one iota of remorse for his actions. Has not acknowledged any blame he may carry in this case even if he believes he is not, technically, a rapist.
Evans is not a nice person, we can all agree on that. There is, however, no legal reason why he shouldn't resume his career. The only reason he can't is because some people decided he shouldn't. Is mob rule something we want to support?
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:31 pm

There are numerous cases of footballers who have been convicted of less serious crimes returning to their profession after serving a sentence. However, most employers would regard a conviction for a serious criminal office such as rape to be justification for instant dismissal with no possibility of reinstatement on the offender's release from a custodial sentence.

The consequences of committing a criminal offence extend far beyond prison and this was reflected in the judge's sentencing remarks when he told Evans that he had 'thrown away the successful career in which you were involved".

Would you advocate for a teacher convicted of rape to be reinstated in their former profession, G-Unit?
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:10 pm

I think I said there was no legal reason why he should not resume his career. Two football clubs were prepared  to offer him employment. They had to change their minds due to public uproar. 


He was not sentenced to 5 years imprisonment, life on the sex offender's register and the loss of his job. The additional punishment was not imposed by the legal system but by the opinion of some sections of the public.

Teaching is a 'regulated activity' professional footballer is not, so the two cannot be compared.
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by plebgate on Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:46 am

The saying mob rule in this case reallly annoys me.

Since when has the general public making their opinions known become mob rule?

RIDICULOUS nonsense IMO.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:14 pm

@plebgate wrote:The saying mob rule in this case reallly annoys me.

Since when has the general public making their opinions known become mob rule?

RIDICULOUS nonsense IMO.
I think that would be when a section of the population intimidates others?

Ochlocracy (Greekὀχλοκρατία,okhlokratíaLatinochlocratia) or mob rule is the rule of government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy



Expressing an opinion is one thing, intimidation is another. Various football clubs were intimidated in this case IMO.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-oldham-athletic-deal-sign-8405041
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by secrets and lies on Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:43 pm

G-Unit, let's forget the so called mob rule mentality that has forced the victim of Ched Evans to keep moving and made her life a misery. Does she have a future? She has been named and shamed for being a victim of rape. This to me is far more serious than Ched Evans career prospects.

Of course there is no legal reason why he cannot resume his previous career. But do you believe that Olhdam athletic, for example,decided not to sign him in the end because of "mob rule", as you call it? 

I should imagine their private considerations go far beyond what the public think about Evans. If they really wanted him a bit of spin would have cleared the path, i'm sure.

Most people I have spoken to feel Ched Evans should be allowed to live his life as a free man now that he has served his time. Most articles I have read online and in papers have said the same.

Should we all now be afraid to give our opinions lest we be accused of contributing to a mob mentality?
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:33 pm

Everyone should be entitled to express an opinion. No-one should use intimidation to force others to accept their opinion. According to the Telegraph it was not public opinion, but internet trolls who had the final say. Whether true or not, internet trolls were certainly out in force. They attacked many, including Evans, his victim and people associated with the football clubs;

So the final arbiters were not the Football Association or even public opinion but internet trolls whose reported threats to Oldham board members scuppered the ill-judged plan to sign Ched Evans. Only when a sociopath threatened rape against the daughter of a club director did football reach the end of the line in this dismal saga.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/oldham-athletic/11333205/Ched-Evans-affair-shamed-football-myopic-PFA-mute-FA-and-idiotic-clubs-all-disgraced-themselves.html
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Tony Bennett on Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:44 pm

@secrets and lies wrote:It is well known that the family and friends of Ched Evans waged a campaign of fear and hate against the victim using social media.

She was named and apparently has had to move home several times.

Not all the information in this case has been made available to the public, one assumes, but the jury who convicted this man, most likely, had access to more evidence than has been released into the public domain.

After this appeal by Ched Evans failed.

It is known that after the rape, he left by a fire escape and had two friends on watch outside while he abused this girl with apparently one attempting to film for posterity.

He is now on remand having presumably exhibited good behaviour but his sentence is not complete and includes his continued "good behaviour" and being "rehabilitated". 

To stand by and allow his victim to be threatened, bully and harassed in this way, after what he has already done, does not, to me, suggests a person who needs our sympathy or the benefit of any doubt. Could this be described as "good behaviour"?
This is a difficult case.

I didn't know about a campaign of indimidation by the Ched Evans family against the woman in this case. If there was, there is no excuse for it.

I have read that the woman concerned had quite a history, I think drugs and drink were mentioned, I am not sure.

The behaviour Evans indulged in that night, and that of his loutish (to put it kindly) friends was outrageous.

There is however more than some room for legal argument here on whether he did actually commit the crime of rape - which is no doubt why the case is going shortly, I believe, to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Twitter has been influential, as it is increasingly so these days. An idea or demand can 'fly' amongst tens of thuosands with minutes.

But I've come here to post a case decided yesterday which, in thinking of the conduct of the victim in all this, has at least some parallels with the Ched Evans case. Passages of interest highlighted in red:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

BBC News website - 14 January 2015 Last updated at 13:18


Bexleyheath Academy teacher Stuart Kerner sentenced for pupil affair

A religious studies teacher who had sex with an underage pupil at school has avoided being sent to prison by a judge who said the victim "stalked him".

Stuart Kerner, 44, from Kent, conducted an affair with the girl, then 15, at Bexleyheath Academy, south-east London.

Handing Kerner a suspended sentence, Judge Joanna Greenberg QC said the victim had become "obsessed" with him.

The judge told Kerner: "Her friends described her, accurately in my view, as stalking you."

She added: "If grooming is the right word to use, it was she who groomed you, (and) you gave in to temptation."

The married teacher, who was also the vice-principal at the school, received an 18-month sentence, suspended for 18 months.

'Schoolgirl crush'

Kerner, of Russett Close, Aylesford, was found guilty of two counts of sexual activity with a child by a person in a position of trust.

During the case at Inner London Crown Court jurors were told what started out as a schoolgirl crush turned into an 18-month affair which was discovered in 2013.

It was said Kerner took the girl's virginity on a yoga mat in an empty room at Bexleyheath Academy, the same week his wife had a miscarriage.

Kerner later drove the teenager to her home where the pair had sex, kissed and cuddled, the court heard.

'Intelligent and manipulative'

Judge Greenberg said Kerner was "emotionally fragile" due to complications with his wife's pregnancy.

She added that this did not excuse his behaviour, but it did help explain why someone with an "exemplary" character would commit such offences.

Kerner, who denied all the charges he faced, was cleared of four counts of sexual activity with a child by a person in a position of trust and two counts of sexual activity with a child.

Judge Greenberg said she believed the victim was "intelligent and manipulative" and "showed no compunction" about lying when it suited her.

However, the judge also said the victim was a vulnerable girl.

She told Kercher: "The law demands that you are the responsible adult and that you show restraint, and we know that you failed to."

He was placed on the sex offenders register indefinitely and barred from working with children, also indefinitely.

In a video interview with police, the schoolgirl said: "It felt special. But, I dunno, it wasn't really. And admitting that does kind of hurt."

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by secrets and lies on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:24 pm

An interesting case indeed, Tony. I hadn't heard about this. Quite shocking to read.

With regards to the Evans case, their is of course room for doubts and there may be far more to it than we realise. If the case was still pending I would be very quick to challenge anyone on Twitter who was decrying Chad Evans and his right to a proper and fair trial. I sincerely hope that is what he got.

Additionally if this girl does, in fact, have a colourful history one would expect that this was carefully scrutinised by Evans defence team and that the jury were asked to take it in consideration.

My point is that Ched Evans was convicted of rape and until that has been overturned I do not feel I, or anyone else who abides by the law, needs concern themselves with giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Evans surely has access to a team of media advisers, as do all celebrities, small and large, these days. The way he has chosen to deport himself has clearly had an impact in how social media has responded to him. He must take at least some responsibility for this.
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:30 pm

Yes, Tony, the woman did have a history in the Evans case but the jury didn't know because the defense are only allowed to refer to a victim's character if the prosecution do it first.

The other case is very interesting. The CPS say that someone under 16 cannot consent to sexual activity, so in that case there was clearly no consent. They also say abuse of trust is an aggravating factor. She must have been a very serious stalker for him to get the sentence he did (although I'm not clear if he was found guilty of having relations with her when she was 15 or 16). 

According to the Attorney General's office complaints have already been made about leniency, so the sentence will be examined again. The judge said in mitigation that he was well respected and not a danger to anyone. The girl 'groomed' him rather than the other way round and he was vulnerable emotionally at the time. She also, however, mentioned the vulnerability and difficult home life of the girl.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2909756/Married-teacher-took-16-year-old-girl-pupil-s-virginity-store-cupboard-spared-prison-judge-says-groomed-HER.html
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:35 pm

When you elect to become a teacher you are taught that you have a 'duty of care' to your pupils and that sexual relationships are out of bounds because of the nature of your ROLE and the difference in power between pupil and teacher. Young teachers, especially in their twenties, (usually male) sometimes fall in love with older pupils who may, after all, be close in age - even up to eighteen years old. The fact that they are above the age of consent is irrelevant. It is because of the nature of the pupil - teacher roles and rules that one of them has to leave the school before they can develop their relationship. A lot of times this happens and no harm is done.

This case is clearly way different, and the much older male teacher may well have been vulnerable, and the young girl may have pursued him relentlessly, but there is no excuse for what happened, or for the judges remarks either. I am surprised the Attorney General has found that there may not be a review for technical reasons. I think the law should be changed.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by nomendelta on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:54 pm

It doesn't matter how manipulative, flirtatious, cunning or whatever she was. She was 15. He was 44. He was married. He was a teacher. He was a Religious Studies teacher. She stalked him? Tell the police, tell her parents, tell his wife, tell his superiors, get the girl's class changed. Lot's of avenues to explore but - despite being of "exemplary character" - he had an affair with her. It doesn't sound to me like he did all he could to avoid such an outcome.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:38 pm

@Tony Bennett

Other than as an example of victim blaming, I fail to see how the case you have cited can be compared with that of convicted rapist Chedwyn Evans who, having served half of his 5 year sentence in prison, was released in October last year to serve the remainder on licence in the community.

If you are suggesting that Evans' victim 'stalked'; and/or 'groomed' or was 'obsessed' by him, you may be unaware that neither Evans or his friend Clayton McDonald was known to the victim prior to the night in question:: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ched-evans-sordid-night-turned-4446954  

You may also be unaware that Evans has twice been refused leave to appeal, firstly by an Appeal Court judge sitting alone and at a subsequent hearing in front of three Appeal Court judges, including the Lord Chief Justice for England and Wales, who concluded “We can see no possible basis which would justify us to interfere with the verdict of the jury which heard all the evidence and reflected on it following a careful summing up by the judge."

Anyone convicted of an offence can ask the Criminal Cases Review Commission to look at their case but this does not mean that the CCRC accepts that there are grounds for the conviction to be considered to be unsafe.  As at 30 November 2014 only 568 of 17,183 cases that have completed the CCRC processes were referred to the Court of Appeal and while 374 of those have resulted in convictions being quashed, there's no reason to believe that Evans' submission will be successful.

Evans' self-serving website has it that after he was sentenced "Philpott the prosecuting barrister went over to Ched's parents and said 'I am so sorry'."

It is a matter of public record that after the trial the senior Crown Prosecutor for Wales, Nita Dowell, said “Ched Evans took advantage of a vulnerable young woman who was in no fit state to consent to sexual activity. He did so knowingly and with a total disregard for her physical or emotional wellbeing" and she added “It is a myth that being vulnerable through alcohol consumption means that a victim is somehow responsible for being raped. The law is clear: being vulnerable through drink or drugs does not imply consent.”

It should be noted that Evans is not claiming that he didn’t do what is alleged; but that what he did do should not be classed as rape.  However, the law is not what criminals want it to be and what cannot be disputed is that, having heard all the evidence, the jury came to the conclusion that Evans was guilty of rape beyond all reasonable doubt.  

The only other possible comparison that can be drawn between the two cases is the involvement of the Attorney General who is due to decide whether certain information on Evans' website is in contempt but who would appear to be powerless to determine whether Kerner's sentence is unduly lenient.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/ched-evans-attorney-general-decide-8444255
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30835245
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:42 pm


Instead of providing links to blogs that could have been written by Evans or his supporters, I suggest you analyse this:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:44 pm

Maybe the two cases simply demonstrate the inconsistencies in the law on rape?
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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:50 am

There are undoubtedly inconsistencies in the provision of services to victims of rape across the UK, in the enforcement of rape laws, and in the sentencing of offenders, G-Unit, but, unlike Evans, Kerner was not charged with, or convicted of, rape: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30182241
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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:24 am

Oops! Sorry, didn't notice that. The charge was more lenient for Kerner, presumeably because the girl clearly pursued him. I wondered how he was sentenced to 18 months when the lowest sentence for rape is 5 years.

Tony was referring to the behaviour of the victims when I look back. Campaigners insist we ignore the behaviour of the victims in rape/sexual assault cases, but surely common sense dictates that sometimes it is relevant?

If Evans' victim had been my daughter, I would have had a lot to say to her about her behaviour that night. To avoid being burgled we lock our doors. Why can't we acknowledge that a woman's behaviour can contribute to the circumstances they find themselves in?
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