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What do we KNOW?

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What do we KNOW?

Post by PeterMac on 29.12.14 15:57

Let us start 2015 with what we think we know - probably

The shutters were not broken
The door was not hanging off its hinges
The curtains did not ‘whoosh’
Madeleine’s bed had not been slept in
The twins were heavily sedated
There was no credible evidence of a point of entry
There was no credible evidence of a point of exit
There was no credible evidence of an intruder
Jane Tanner did not see an abductor
The parents did not search
The Tapas 7 did not search
The parents did not tell the truth
The parents both changed their stories

The “Last Photo” was not taken at lunchtime on 3/5/7
The door did not slam at 10 pm on 3/5/7
The curtains did not ”whoosh’ at 10 pm on 3/5/7
It was not a hot night on 3/5/7


It is also highly unlikely that . . .

Madeleine compained about having cried on 2/5/7
The parents planned to do half hourly checks on 3/5/7
Payne visited the apartment at 6 pm and saw all three children

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What do we know?

Post by Mo on 29.12.14 16:06

@PeterMac wrote:Let us start 2015 with what we think we know - probably

The shutters were not broken
The door was not hanging off its hinges
The curtains did not ‘whoosh’
Madeleine’s bed had not been slept in
The twins were heavily sedated
There was no credible evidence of a point of entry
There was no credible evidence of a point of exit
There was no credible evidence of an intruder
Jane Tanner did not see an abductor
The parents did not search
The Tapas 7 did not search
The parents did not tell the truth
The parents both changed their stories

The “Last Photo” was not taken at lunchtime on 3/5/7
The door did not slam at 10 pm on 3/5/7
The curtains did not ”whoosh’ at 10 pm on 3/5/7
It was not a hot night on 3/5/7


It is also highly unlikely that . . .

Madeleine compained about having cried on 2/5/7
The parents planned to do half hourly checks on 3/5/7
Payne visited the apartment at 6 pm and saw all three children

The blue bag and blanket are missing
Phone calls were deleted off K & G's phones

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Other things we know

Post by G-Unit on 29.12.14 16:18

The Mccanns had access to at least 2 PAYG mobiles on 4th May, probably without the knowledge of the Portugese police.
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by sharonl on 29.12.14 16:30

@Mo wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Let us start 2015 with what we think we know - probably

The shutters were not broken
The door was not hanging off its hinges
The curtains did not ‘whoosh’
Madeleine’s bed had not been slept in
The twins were heavily sedated
There was no credible evidence of a point of entry
There was no credible evidence of a point of exit
There was no credible evidence of an intruder
Jane Tanner did not see an abductor
The parents did not search
The Tapas 7 did not search
The parents did not tell the truth
The parents both changed their stories

The “Last Photo” was not taken at lunchtime on 3/5/7
The door did not slam at 10 pm on 3/5/7
The curtains did not ”whoosh’ at 10 pm on 3/5/7
It was not a hot night on 3/5/7


It is also highly unlikely that . . .

Madeleine compained about having cried on 2/5/7
The parents planned to do half hourly checks on 3/5/7
Payne visited the apartment at 6 pm and saw all three children

The blue bag and blanket are missing
Phone calls were deleted off K & G's phones

There is no credible, independent and verifiable sighting of Madeleine on that holiday.

There are very few photographs of the Madeleine or the McCanns on that holiday 

No Madeleine DNA in McCann apartment

Change in the behaviour of the McCanns since Apr 29 - no longer going out for breakfast, taking lunch in their own apt whilst the rest of the group dined on the Paynes balcony.  Kate and Gerry entering and leaving the apt by different doors.

Claiming that they took the kids to the beach at a time which contradicts the creche records

Claiming that they all went to Sagres when the kids were booked in at the creche

Two separate timelines

A fund was very quickly set up - to meet legal expenses (according to Uncle Brian Kennedy)

Clarence Mitchell, encouraging the public to donate, told us that Alpha Group investigations were a team of crack detectives. In reality the company never did exist but took its name from Alpha Investigations Group, but this had nothing to do with the McCanns.  it was a one man band called Alphaig, set up purely for the McCanns, owned by Arthur Cowley, run from his cottage in the Halkyn Mountains on a budget of £500, assets of £8 and no experience on finding missing children.  

Antonio Jiminez Raso was caught paying witnesses to say that they had seen Madeleine in Morrocco

At least four of the McCanns private investigators has been arrested or jailed for major offences away from the McCann case i.e the McCanns employed corrupt private investigators

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Jamming on 29.12.14 16:32

That highly trained, specialist, blood & cadaver sniffer dogs alerted to the presence of blood and a dead body in the apartment, on the parents clothes, in the hire car and on its keys with no realistic alternative given to the patently obvious reason for its presence
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by jeanmonroe on 29.12.14 16:50

The very LAST 'person' to have 'seen' a 'live' Madeleine, before she went 'missing', was her own father.

The 'last' person before her father, to have 'seen' a 'live' Madeleine, before she went 'missing', was her own mother.

There is NO EVIDENCE that eliminates them, the McCanns, or persons they know, from involvement, in their child's 'disappearance'.

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by MRNOODLES on 29.12.14 17:18

The first newspaper report of MM going missing was roughly two hours later at around midnight.
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Khaleesi on 29.12.14 17:27

@sharonl wrote: Change in the behaviour of the McCanns since Apr 29 - no longer going out for breakfast, taking lunch in their own apt whilst the rest of the group dined on the Paynes balcony.  Kate and Gerry entering and leaving the apt by different doors.

The above is not entirely true as the Millenium staff stated that the McCanns were eating their breakfast in the Milennium restaurant almost every day. It seems the McCanns lied about breakfasting in the Millenium, for whatever reason.

I reread Dianne Webster's rogatory statement and look what I've found:

”Tell me about the Wednesday then as far as you can remember from there.”
Reply ”Well that morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or something, again I’m not clear on that.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm




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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by canada12 on 29.12.14 17:33

The entire "FInd Madeleine" campaign and fund was launched on the basis of looking for a child with a highly distinguishable eye defect that was prominently displayed in posters, photographs and ad campaigns.


In a recent Piers Morgan interview, Kate said:
"If I'm honest, we haven't put too much emphasis on her eye, because I think you have to be very close to her to see it. But her eyes are slightly different colors, and one of them has this brown fleck in it."


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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by sharonl on 29.12.14 19:03

@Khaleesi wrote:
@sharonl wrote: Change in the behaviour of the McCanns since Apr 29 - no longer going out for breakfast, taking lunch in their own apt whilst the rest of the group dined on the Paynes balcony.  Kate and Gerry entering and leaving the apt by different doors.

The above is not entirely true as the Millenium staff stated that the McCanns were eating their breakfast in the Milennium restaurant almost every day. It seems the McCanns lied about breakfasting in the Millenium, for whatever reason.

I reread Dianne Webster's rogatory statement and look what I've found:

”Tell me about the Wednesday then as far as you can remember from there.”
Reply    ”Well that morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or something, again I’m not clear on that.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

Interesting!

Were Kate and Gerry having breakfast at the Millenium, with the children,  or after dropping them off at the creche?

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.12.14 20:43

@Khaleesi wrote:

I reread Dianne Webster's rogatory statement and look what I've found:

”Tell me about the Wednesday then as far as you can remember from there.”

Reply:    ”Well that morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or something, again I’m not clear on that.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Utterly valueless, of course, as a statement of fact, becuase of the FIVE sets of words highlighted in red below:

QUOTE
 
"Well that morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or something, again I’m not clear on that.”

UNQUOTE

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by PeterMac on 29.12.14 21:22

I usually remember with whom I had breakfast !

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Khaleesi on 29.12.14 21:54

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Utterly valueless, of course, as a statement of fact, becuase of the FIVE sets of words highlighted in red below:

Ahh. Do those "I thinks" make the fact, that Webster actually confirmed the statements of the Millenium staff about the McCanns breakfast habits, completely meaningless? Quite strange line of thinking it is.
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by plebgate on 30.12.14 1:21

Diana Webster seemed to recollect -  IMO if one recollects something then one is remembering and not merely thinking something has happened.

So IMO, reading that statement,  she remembered they were there but she could only think, but could not remember whether they had finished their breakfast.

Only IMO of course.

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Rufus T on 30.12.14 9:42

Sharonl - as regards the trip to Sagres it was mentioned in the press that the McC's were there ( in relation to the Polish gent taking photos) but the McC's have never actually told us they went there.
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What do we know

Post by Grim on 30.12.14 10:19

Martin Brunt and Sky TV played a huge part in Brenda Leyland's death .
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.12.14 10:21

@Rufus T wrote:Sharonl - as regards the trip to Sagres it was mentioned in the press that the McC's were there (in relation to the Polish gent taking photos) but the McC's have never actually told us they went there.
@ Rufus T

If you refer to the thread on the 'Polish gent' - Wojcek (or Wojciech) Krokowski:
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10602-was-wojcek-krokowski-sagres-man-with-a-camera-the-template-for-both-tannerman-and-smithman

...you will see that on that thread I give what I think is overwhelming evidence that the claim that the McCanns went to Sagres (either on the Sunday or Monday) was simply a media invention, with the 'information' provided by a 'source'.

The media story, which surfaced several days after Madeleine's reported disappearance, was that 'Sagres Man' = Polish gent = Wojcek Krokowski had been seen taking photographs, and maybe tried to abduct a child, and that possibly he might also have seen the McCanns when (allegedly) they went to Sagres. Then, it was claimed, he might have been so 'taken' with Madeleine that he followed the McCanns back to Praia da Luz, plotted to abduct Madeleine, and did so.

On the same thread I have also explained that there are so many peculiarities and contradictions in the Sagres Man/Polish man claim that it seems more than reasonable to conclude that Nuno Lourenco de Jesus, the source of the story, made the whole thing up. For a start, he waited a week to report the attempted kidnapping of his daughter, and then did so only moments after Krokowski's plane to Berlin had taken off from Faro Airport (!).  

Hours before Lourenco's 'phone call to the PJ, Jane Tanner had given a description of a bloke she claimed to have seen carrying a child at 9.15pm on 3 May. Remarkably, her description very closely matched that of Krokowski, as Dr Goncalo Amaral carefully noted in 'The Truth About A Lie'.

That made him contact Europol, and the German and Polish police, and demand that passengers on the plane, including of course Krokowski and his escort, were questioned. Polish police were waiting for Krokowski when he arrived back at his flat in Warsaw.

But it was a true wild goose chase

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Rufus T on 30.12.14 10:41

Thank you Tony, I have read that thread and was trying to point out that the Sagres trip is not something we know but merely, as you put it, a media invention.
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Did all the T9 know what happened to MM

Post by Mo on 30.12.14 12:18

I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.


Obviously I have a lot more reading to do to catch up with  this case and it maybe that you have already covered this point.
OMO

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by tiny on 30.12.14 12:33

@Mo wrote:I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.


Obviously I have a lot more reading to do to catch up with  this case and it maybe that you have already covered this point.
OMO
So why did did the ones who did not know go alone with the timelines,nah they all knew and if they didn't then they do now,but still wont say,they are all evil.
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Mo on 30.12.14 12:46

I
@tiny wrote:
@Mo wrote:I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.


Obviously I have a lot more reading to do to catch up with  this case and it maybe that you have already covered this point.
OMO
So why did did the ones who did not know go alone with the timelines,nah they all knew and if they didn't then they do now,but still wont say,they are all evil.
Purely because they could all get done for neglect.

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by tiny on 30.12.14 13:32

I still don't believe the children were ever neglected,but if they were then ALL the children in that group should be under the eye of S/S because they must have been drugged
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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.12.14 13:39

@Mo wrote:I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out' for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.
Not saying anything about this case, but there have of course been many many instances in history where people have done something terrible and covered it up with an elaborate 'cover story', including a timeline.

You say: "If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?"

REPLY: NO. Again, many many times in the past, wrong-doers have worked out an elaborate cover story, timelines and all - only for the whole edifice to come crashing down when the police start asking the witnesses detailed questions.

A classic example of this in the instant case of Madeleine McCann - and something which very much undermines IMO your theory about 'only the Paynes and the McCanns knowing' what happened to Madeleine - is the remarkable way that Dr Kate McCann and Dr David Payne contradicted each other in at least TWENTY different ways about a visit claimed to have been made to the McCanns' apartment by Dr Payne at around 6.30pm on 3 May, the evening Madeleine was reported missing.

Remember that this was supposed to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive. 

Is this a possible scenario...?

The group - maybe advised by some outside expert - agree to state that Dr Payne visited the McCanns' apartment at around 6.30pm and saw Kate and the three children alive.

They both do so - telling the PJ - yes, Dr Payne visited G5A at around 6.30pm.

Then the police question the two of them separately.

Did you enter the property?

How long were you there?

Why did you go there?

Did you see the children?

What were they wearing?

What were they doing?

What was Dr Kate McCann wearing?

And so on.

To each of these questions, they give very different answers.

The whole thing collapses like a house of cards...

...to such an extent that there is now real doubt about whether that visit ever occurred.

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by sharonl on 30.12.14 14:09

@Mo wrote:I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.


Obviously I have a lot more reading to do to catch up with  this case and it maybe that you have already covered this point.
OMO

We should remember here that it is not just the Paynes or even the seven friends that supported the McCanns and their claims of abduction, but many others such as top celebrities, the media, the British Government and many UK expats to Portugal.  Even the McCanns co-ordinating lawyer took his annual family holidays  in Praia Da Luz for 13 years prior to Madeleines disappearance.

So why would so many people support the McCanns?

Looking a completely different case and not suggesting that this has anything to do with the McCann case.  We all know the story behind the Elm Lodge scandal.   Members of the Spartacus club used Elm Lodge and many other holiday homes regularly and for the purpose of meeting up with other members and for holding sex parties which included child abuse.  Many of the Spartacus Club members were celebrities, politicians and other VIPs.  Imagine if a child had gone missing from one of these holiday places.  Wouldn't the club members, the hotel owners and many others want to protect themselves?

There could be many reasons why so many people have supported this abduction claim.

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Re: What do we KNOW?

Post by Mo on 30.12.14 14:33

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Mo wrote:I am beginning to think the only people that really knew what happened to MM are the Payne's (not including the mother) and the Mc's themselves.  The Mc's only knew the Payne's really well so why would the others 'stick their necks out' for aquaintances.  I think the only time they all really got together was for the timelines.

If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?  This could also account for the errors in their statements - which would mean that the others apart from the Payne's genuinely believe she was abducted.
Not saying anything about this case, but there have of course been many many instances in history where people have done something terrible and covered it up with an elaborate 'cover story', including a timeline.

You say: "If something happened to MM before the 3rd May, surely they would have got the timelines straight on the 3rd May?"

REPLY: NO. Again, many many times in the past, wrong-doers have worked out an elaborate cover story, timelines and all - only for the whole edifice to come crashing down when the police start asking the witnesses detailed questions. 

I do think they made up the timeline when put 'on the spot' by the PJ when asked about the checking pattern.  That's why there were 2 lists because they made such a mess about it.  (This could be something that the Mc's never thought they would be asked)



A classic example of this in the instant case of Madeleine McCann - and something which very much undermines IMO your theory about 'only the Paynes and the McCanns knowing' what happened to Madeleine - is the remarkable way that Dr Kate McCann and Dr David Payne contradicted each other in at least TWENTY different ways about a visit claimed to have been made to the McCanns' apartment by Dr Payne at around 6.30pm on 3 May, the evening Madeleine was reported missing.

Remember that this was supposed to be the very last time that anyone apart from the McCanns saw Madeleine alive. 

Is this a possible scenario...?

The group - maybe advised by some outside expert - agree to state that Dr Payne visited the McCanns' apartment at around 6.30pm and saw Kate and the three children alive. 

Would all the group need to know that DP visited the Mc's apartment?  As they all didn't see DP at the apartment wouldn't that be hearsay on their part?  Throughout the week they obviously visited each others apartments apart from the Mc's I think because they were only friends with the Paynes - not quite cosy and comfortable with the others


They both do so - telling the PJ - yes, Dr Payne visited G5A at around 6.30pm.

Then the police question the two of them separately.

Did you enter the property?

How long were you there? 

Why did you go there?

Did you see the children?

What were they wearing?

What were they doing?

What was Dr Kate McCann wearing?

And so on.

To each of these questions, they give very different answers.

The whole thing collapses like a house of cards...

...to such an extent that there is now real doubt about whether that visit ever occurred.

Perhaps DP did pop his head in to make sure K was OK with the plans for that night but never realised the PJ would ask about their conversation? This must have really thrown them -

Just thoughts Tony - OMO





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