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"Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by j.rob on 24.12.14 18:15

And the Mc loony conspiracy theory that Madeleine was abducted is just ridiculous. There is no evidence for it apart from anything. But you know that!

Ha! Pathetic!

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by j.rob on 24.12.14 18:16

Now just crawl back under your little bridge, realist! You know you want to. And don't be afraid of the billy goats!

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by margaret on 24.12.14 18:27

woodforthetreesRealist...please read what I have written.... wrote:
The McCanns have been exonerated for any involvement in the murder...because they are looking for a lone paedo.

Now, the problem SY have is that even if they do find this supposed lone paedo they are looking for, it poses a problem for the McCanns as it blows their timeline out of the water! Hence puts them under the spotlight for neglect. However!!..... Gerry is VERY well protected so no charges will be brought for that, which means.....

SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

Also, don't forget, SY are interested in capturing a murderer but other agencies are interested in the twins welfare and potential neglect charges regarding Madeleine, so it all has to fit nicely

There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanners sighting they could have used that as the abductor.

SY have not been helpful to the Mccanns this last year they've also said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, so what burglar abducts dead bodies?

And if they believe the dogs evidence in 5a they also have to believe what was found in the hire car too.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Realist on 24.12.14 18:37

@woodforthetrees wrote:


SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

You're obviously missing the point of what both I and Tony Bennet are attempting to convey, which is of course, that the time lines were altered for the specific purpose of making a third party kidnapping physically possible and nothing whatsoever to do with child neglect.

The time lines had to be changed, because if the original ones made kidnapping a physical impossibility, how could Operation Grange proceed to pursue an independent kidnapper whilst eliminating the McCanns if there couldn't possibly have been a kidnapping in the time originally provided.

No authority is interested in child neglect vis a vis the McCanns or their friends, ask Tony, he knows from first hand experience.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Realist on 24.12.14 18:39

@j.rob wrote:Now just crawl back under your little bridge, realist! You know you want to. And don't be afraid of the billy goats!

Quad erat demonstrandum.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by margaret on 24.12.14 19:58

@Realist wrote:
@j.rob wrote:Now just crawl back under your little bridge, realist! You know you want to. And don't be afraid of the billy goats!

Quad erat demonstrandum.
You are Harry Potter and I claim my £5  lol
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 25.12.14 11:44

@margaret wrote:
woodforthetreesRealist...please read what I have written.... wrote:
The McCanns have been exonerated for any involvement in the murder...because they are looking for a lone paedo.

Now, the problem SY have is that even if they do find this supposed lone paedo they are looking for, it poses a problem for the McCanns as it blows their timeline out of the water! Hence puts them under the spotlight for neglect. However!!..... Gerry is VERY well protected so no charges will be brought for that, which means.....

SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

Also, don't forget, SY are interested in capturing a murderer but other agencies are interested in the twins welfare and potential neglect charges regarding Madeleine, so it all has to fit nicely

There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanners sighting they could have used that as the abductor.

SY have not been helpful to the Mccanns this last year they've also said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, so what burglar abducts dead bodies?

And if they believe the dogs evidence in 5a they also have to believe what was found in the hire car too.
Few quick responses to this:

Regardless of whether Tannerman or Smithman are genuine, neither are valid as the description are lame and the witnesses flaky. Neither would stand up in court at all, therefore neither are worth a wink.

So, even if behind closed doors SY believe tanner man is genuine, they can get rid of it to give the MCCanns the all clear for neglect, hence Smithman and the new, bigger 'window of opportunity'

Regards to the 'abducting burglar'... This is media tosh, again...they are looking for a paedo acting alone who performed an act and then removed the body. (Hence the cadaver and new larger/later window).

Regards the hire car, this is yet to be answered. Problem they have is that cadaver scent was detected but that does not confirm it is Madeleine. As such, without further DNA tests to confirm the samples of Madeleine were from a deceased girl, this too would cast reasonable doubt on that evidence as it's inconclusive.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 25.12.14 12:17

@woodforthetrees wrote:
@margaret wrote:
woodforthetreesRealist...please read what I have written.... wrote:
The McCanns have been exonerated for any involvement in the murder...because they are looking for a lone paedo.

Now, the problem SY have is that even if they do find this supposed lone paedo they are looking for, it poses a problem for the McCanns as it blows their timeline out of the water! Hence puts them under the spotlight for neglect. However!!..... Gerry is VERY well protected so no charges will be brought for that, which means.....

SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

Also, don't forget, SY are interested in capturing a murderer but other agencies are interested in the twins welfare and potential neglect charges regarding Madeleine, so it all has to fit nicely

There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanners sighting they could have used that as the abductor.

SY have not been helpful to the Mccanns this last year they've also said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, so what burglar abducts dead bodies?

And if they believe the dogs evidence in 5a they also have to believe what was found in the hire car too.
Few quick responses to this:

Regardless of whether Tannerman or Smithman are genuine, neither are valid as the description are lame and the witnesses flaky. Neither would stand up in court at all, therefore neither are worth a wink.

So, even if behind closed doors SY believe tanner man is genuine, they can get rid of it to give the MCCanns the all clear for neglect, hence Smithman and the new, bigger 'window of opportunity'

Regards to the 'abducting burglar'... This is media tosh, again...they are looking for a paedo acting alone who performed an act and then removed the body. (Hence the cadaver and new larger/later window).

Regards the hire car, this is yet to be answered. Problem they have is that cadaver scent was detected but that does not confirm it is Madeleine. As such, without further DNA tests to confirm the samples of Madeleine were from a deceased girl, this too would cast reasonable doubt on that evidence as it's inconclusive.
 There was more than just cadaver scent in the hire car i believe. There was quite a bit of hair recovered from the trunk of the vehicle as well.


1. All five markers in a sample found under the tiles, behind the sofa (exactly where Eddie, the EVRD [Cadaver] dog and Keela, the CSI [Human Blood] dog, both indicated), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

2. Fifteen of the markers, in a sample found under the luggage liner of the McCann's Scenic (hired 24 days later), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

11. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the McCann's wardrobe in 5A

12. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A

13. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the veranda outside the parent?s bedroom

14. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the flower bed at the back of 5A

15. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a white sleeveless top belonging to Kate

16. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to checked trousers belonging to Kate

17. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a child?s red T shirt

18. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a toy belonging to Madeleine

19. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's rental Scenic car


20. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the passenger's door of the McCann's Renault Scenic

21. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A (exact same spot as alerted to by the EVRD dog)

22. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's hire car

23. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the interior of the hire vehicle's boot

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/100-reasons-why-madeleine-mccann-was.html
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.12.14 12:43

@margaret wrote:
There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanner's sighting they could have used that as the abductor.
There is no easy way of saying this, margaret, but you have completely missed the whole point of the BBC Crimewatch McCann Show.

Far from 'rubbishing' the Tanner sighting, DCI Redwood, supported by the BBC - fully endorsed it - and with brass knobs on.

Redwood siad he was 'almost certain' that Crecheman was Tannerman.

Just as Jane Tanner said, a lone man was out walking with his child at 9.15pm on 3 May.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a child.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a young blonde girl.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the young blonde girl was wearing pyjamas. 

Just as Jane Tanner said, the girl's pyjamas - which he had faithfully kept for six years - were similar in colour to Jane Tanner's description.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was wearing a dark-coloured jacket. Apparently he wore it all week.  

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was wearing light-coloured trousers, just as he had been all week.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was carrying his daughter not on his shoulder (the normal way) but stretched out in front of him on his forearms. 

Redwood even helpfully showed us a purported photo of the man, just to emphasise the similarity - comparing it with Melissa Little's sketch, produced in late October 2007 when it was of no pracatical use whatsoever, except to promote the abduction claim.

And at the same time, like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, Redwood produced two e-fits of different-looking men, which he had been given by the McCanns in spring 2011 and saved up for this 'revelation moment'.

'These two blokes are the same man!', he exulted.

'The Smiths saw him at 10.00pm that night', he beamed.

'And that means that the time-frame for the abduction has been changed from 9.11pm to 9.14pm to 9.11pm to 10.00pm', he boasted.

'Now we have 49 minutes to play with, instead of 3', he said triumphantly.


No, margaret, he didn't rubbish Tannerman at all.

On the contrary, he confirmed just how observant she had been in the dark.

Tannerman was genuine all right.

But so was Smithman, conveniently kept on the back burner by everyone involved for five years. but now promoted proudly to the front burner

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by aquila on 25.12.14 13:16

It's a bit like would you like the blue one or the red one?....that closed question.

The Tannerman and Smithman sightings aren't worth a light in a court...but they're very useful in a whitewash.

The child neglect is very useful too - see PeterMac's wonderful 'Benny Hill' video of the Tapasniks night of the 3rd May 2007.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 25.12.14 13:39

@Joss wrote:
@woodforthetrees wrote:
@margaret wrote:
woodforthetreesRealist...please read what I have written.... wrote:
The McCanns have been exonerated for any involvement in the murder...because they are looking for a lone paedo.

Now, the problem SY have is that even if they do find this supposed lone paedo they are looking for, it poses a problem for the McCanns as it blows their timeline out of the water! Hence puts them under the spotlight for neglect. However!!..... Gerry is VERY well protected so no charges will be brought for that, which means.....

SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

Also, don't forget, SY are interested in capturing a murderer but other agencies are interested in the twins welfare and potential neglect charges regarding Madeleine, so it all has to fit nicely

There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanners sighting they could have used that as the abductor.

SY have not been helpful to the Mccanns this last year they've also said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, so what burglar abducts dead bodies?

And if they believe the dogs evidence in 5a they also have to believe what was found in the hire car too.
Few quick responses to this:

Regardless of whether Tannerman or Smithman are genuine, neither are valid as the description are lame and the witnesses flaky. Neither would stand up in court at all, therefore neither are worth a wink.

So, even if behind closed doors SY believe tanner man is genuine, they can get rid of it to give the MCCanns the all clear for neglect, hence Smithman and the new, bigger 'window of opportunity'

Regards to the 'abducting burglar'... This is media tosh, again...they are looking for a paedo acting alone who performed an act and then removed the body. (Hence the cadaver and new larger/later window).

Regards the hire car, this is yet to be answered. Problem they have is that cadaver scent was detected but that does not confirm it is Madeleine. As such, without further DNA tests to confirm the samples of Madeleine were from a deceased girl, this too would cast reasonable doubt on that evidence as it's inconclusive.
 There was more than just cadaver scent in the hire car i believe. There was quite a bit of hair recovered from the trunk of the vehicle as well.


1. All five markers in a sample found under the tiles, behind the sofa (exactly where Eddie, the EVRD [Cadaver] dog and Keela, the CSI [Human Blood] dog, both indicated), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

2. Fifteen of the markers, in a sample found under the luggage liner of the McCann's Scenic (hired 24 days later), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

11. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the McCann's wardrobe in 5A

12. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A

13. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the veranda outside the parent?s bedroom

14. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the flower bed at the back of 5A

15. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a white sleeveless top belonging to Kate

16. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to checked trousers belonging to Kate

17. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a child?s red T shirt

18. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a toy belonging to Madeleine

19. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's rental Scenic car


20. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the passenger's door of the McCann's Renault Scenic

21. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A (exact same spot as alerted to by the EVRD dog)

22. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's hire car

23. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the interior of the hire vehicle's boot

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/100-reasons-why-madeleine-mccann-was.html
I'm not doubting the dogs or the evidence but keeping it simple.....if it was conclusive and the McCanns were prime suspects, they would be behind bars.....they aren't.

A few reasons for this:
Cadaver scent is not person specific, therefore the dog evidence cannot be used against them.

The blood has been explained as a nosebleed, again, unable to disprove that in a court if law.

Hairs in the car have been fobbed off as cross contamination from some of Madeleines clothes or the from the parents picking up her DNA and transferring it to the car.

The only way to add weight to all of the evidence is if the cadaver can be identified as Madeleine and to do that....they need to re-test the hairs with new methods to see if they came from a deceased Madeleine or an alive Madeleine.

Until then 'the cadaver could be from anyone your honour'

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 25.12.14 13:49

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@margaret wrote:
There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanner's sighting they could have used that as the abductor.
There is no easy way of saying this, margaret, but you have completely missed the whole point of the BBC Crimewatch McCann Show.

Far from 'rubbishing' the Tanner sighting, DCI Redwood, supported by the BBC - fully endorsed it - and with brass knobs on.

Redwood siad he was 'almost certain' that Crecheman was Tannerman.

Just as Jane Tanner said, a lone man was out walking with his child at 9.15pm on 3 May.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a child.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a young blonde girl.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the young blonde girl was wearing pyjamas. 

Just as Jane Tanner said, the girl's pyjamas - which he had faithfully kept for six years - were similar in colour to Jane Tanner's description.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was wearing a dark-coloured jacket. Apparently he wore it all week.  

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was wearing light-coloured trousers, just as he had been all week.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the man was carrying his daughter not on his shoulder (the normal way) but stretched out in front of him on his forearms. 

Redwood even helpfully showed us a purported photo of the man, just to emphasise the similarity - comparing it with Melissa Little's sketch, produced in late October 2007 when it was of no pracatical use whatsoever, except to promote the abduction claim.

And at the same time, like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, Redwood produced two e-fits of different-looking men, which he had been given by the McCanns in spring 2011 and saved up for this 'revelation moment'.

'These two blokes are the same man!', he exulted.

'The Smiths saw him at 10.00pm that night', he beamed.

'And that means that the time-frame for the abduction has been changed from 9.11pm to 9.14pm to 9.11pm to 10.00pm', he boasted.

'Now we have 49 minutes to play with, instead of 3', he said triumphantly.


No, margaret, he didn't rubbish Tannerman at all.

On the contrary, he confirmed just how observant she had been in the dark.

Tannerman was genuine all right.

But so was Smithman, conveniently kept on the back burner by everyone involved for five years. but now promoted proudly to the front burner

^^ This.

Tanner in the clear for lying, new larger window of opportunity now 40 mins and later to quieten down the tapas Benny Hill sketch child checking rubbish and thus the tapas 9 neglect spotlight switched off and therefore all focus on the mystery 'abductor' (if you believe the media) or lone paedo if you are SY

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 25.12.14 15:06

@woodforthetrees wrote:
@Joss wrote:
@woodforthetrees wrote:
@margaret wrote:
woodforthetreesRealist...please read what I have written.... wrote:
The McCanns have been exonerated for any involvement in the murder...because they are looking for a lone paedo.

Now, the problem SY have is that even if they do find this supposed lone paedo they are looking for, it poses a problem for the McCanns as it blows their timeline out of the water! Hence puts them under the spotlight for neglect. However!!..... Gerry is VERY well protected so no charges will be brought for that, which means.....

SY have to make the window of opportunity wider to justify (enough anyway) the child checking timeline. Paedo nicked, Tapas 9 cleared, SY heroes.

Also, don't forget, SY are interested in capturing a murderer but other agencies are interested in the twins welfare and potential neglect charges regarding Madeleine, so it all has to fit nicely

There can't be a whitewash WFTT, SY have rubbished Tanners sighting they could have used that as the abductor.

SY have not been helpful to the Mccanns this last year they've also said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, so what burglar abducts dead bodies?

And if they believe the dogs evidence in 5a they also have to believe what was found in the hire car too.
Few quick responses to this:

Regardless of whether Tannerman or Smithman are genuine, neither are valid as the description are lame and the witnesses flaky. Neither would stand up in court at all, therefore neither are worth a wink.

So, even if behind closed doors SY believe tanner man is genuine, they can get rid of it to give the MCCanns the all clear for neglect, hence Smithman and the new, bigger 'window of opportunity'

Regards to the 'abducting burglar'... This is media tosh, again...they are looking for a paedo acting alone who performed an act and then removed the body. (Hence the cadaver and new larger/later window).

Regards the hire car, this is yet to be answered. Problem they have is that cadaver scent was detected but that does not confirm it is Madeleine. As such, without further DNA tests to confirm the samples of Madeleine were from a deceased girl, this too would cast reasonable doubt on that evidence as it's inconclusive.
 There was more than just cadaver scent in the hire car i believe. There was quite a bit of hair recovered from the trunk of the vehicle as well.


1. All five markers in a sample found under the tiles, behind the sofa (exactly where Eddie, the EVRD [Cadaver] dog and Keela, the CSI [Human Blood] dog, both indicated), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

2. Fifteen of the markers, in a sample found under the luggage liner of the McCann's Scenic (hired 24 days later), are 100% compatible with Madeleine's DNA profile

11. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the McCann's wardrobe in 5A

12. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A

13. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the veranda outside the parent?s bedroom

14. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the flower bed at the back of 5A

15. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a white sleeveless top belonging to Kate

16. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to checked trousers belonging to Kate

17. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a child?s red T shirt

18. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to a toy belonging to Madeleine

19. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's rental Scenic car


20. Eddie, the EVRD (Cadaver) dog, positively alerted to the passenger's door of the McCann's Renault Scenic

21. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted at the back of the sofa in 5A (exact same spot as alerted to by the EVRD dog)

22. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the key of the McCann's hire car

23. Keela, the CSI (Human Blood) dog, positively alerted to the interior of the hire vehicle's boot

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/100-reasons-why-madeleine-mccann-was.html
I'm not doubting the dogs or the evidence but keeping it simple.....if it was conclusive and the McCanns were prime suspects, they would be behind bars.....they aren't.

A few reasons for this:
Cadaver scent is not person specific, therefore the dog evidence cannot be used against them.

The blood has been explained as a nosebleed, again, unable to disprove that in a court if law.

Hairs in the car have been fobbed off as cross contamination from some of Madeleines clothes or the from the parents picking up her DNA and transferring it to the car.

The only way to add weight to all of the evidence is if the cadaver can be identified as Madeleine and to do that....they need to re-test the hairs with new methods to see if they came from a deceased Madeleine or an alive Madeleine.

Until then 'the cadaver could be from anyone your honour'
I think you will find in some cases cadaver dog evidence is permissable by a judge in cases where a body has not been found. I don't really know what the laws in the U.K[color:6c92=000000]. are, but it would depend on what evidence a judge allows at Trial i would think?

[color:6c92=000000]Canine expert can testify on cadaver scent in Bianca Jones case, judge rules [color:6c92=000000]The Detroit News

[color:6c92=000000]Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

Wayne County Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans made the ruling after attorneys for D'Andre Lane spent more than two hours trying to discredit the relatively new scientific method. Lane is charged with first-degree murder and child abuse in the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones

"I believe the evidence offered is sufficient to go forward. The people should be allowed to demonstrate to a jury that your client was implicated in this particular murder," Evans told the defense. "I think your argument is to weight as opposed to admissibility."

The court Friday also denied a defense motion to halt proceedings in the case while the state Court of Appeals evaluates efforts by Lane's attorneys to have the case tossed out. The attorneys said they also plan to appeal Friday's ruling.

Two forensic canine experts testified Friday before Evans ruled to admit at trial the potential evidence, which is key for prosecutors in the case against Lane.

Danian Woodson, an attorney for Lane, tried to argue against the cadaver dog evidence. But Evans cut her off and denied the motion.
[color:6c92=000000]The father in this case was charged by a Jury after his 2 y[color:6c92=000000]r. old disappeared.

[color:6c92=000000][color:6c92=000000]http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html


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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 25.12.14 15:28

Forgot to mention it was Martin Grime that gave evidence in the D'Andre Lane Trial.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 25.12.14 15:45

The problem in the McCann case is the parents will never be charged with any criminal liability in the disappearance of Madeleine, IMO, so therefore we will never know if the cadaver dog evidence in this case would be allowed at Trial when her body to date has not been recovered.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by PeterMac on 25.12.14 15:57

@Joss wrote:Forgot to mention it was Martin Grime that gave evidence in the D'Andre Lane Trial.
It was indeed, and the same dog, and the technique they used was EXACTLY the same as in the Madeleine/ case
http://archive.freep.com/article/20121004/NEWS01/310040204/Expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave-signals-about-toddler-in-defendant-s-car-house
A cadaver dog with what handlers call near-perfect accuracy passed 30 cars in an impound lot before alerting on a silver Mercury Grand Marquis driven by a Detroit father charged with killing his 2-year-old daughter.

But defense attorneys for D'Andre Lane, 32, questioned whether the dog's response was authentic because the body of Lane's daughter, Bianca Jones, has not been found.
Prosecutors said Lane, who is on trial in Wayne County County Circuit Court, killed Bianca after a potty-training accident and tried to cover it up by calling police on Dec. 2 to report she was taken in a carjacking.
Police found Lane's car running several blocks away from the alleged carjacking site, but the toddler was missing. Prosecutors say the child is presumed dead.
Dog handler and FBI contractor Martin Grime testified during Lane's trial Wednesday that he and his two English springer spaniels -- Morse and Keela --flew from England to Washington, D.C., then drove to Detroit on Dec. 4 to search for Bianca.
Local investigators took Grime and Morse, who is trained to detect decomposing human remains, to an enclosed garage at the Detroit Police Department's impound lot. Inside, he released Morse, leading him through a maze of 31 parked cars, including Lane's silver Mercury.
"He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... like woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof," Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete.

"What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked.
"There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars.

He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside.
"Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked,
"No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket.
Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no.
But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination.
"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.
"No," Grime said.

He was found Guilty and sentenced to Life.
No body has ever been found.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 25.12.14 16:08

@PeterMac wrote:
@Joss wrote:Forgot to mention it was Martin Grime that gave evidence in the D'Andre Lane Trial.
It was indeed, and the same dog, and the technique they used was EXACTLY the same as in the Madeleine/ case
http://archive.freep.com/article/20121004/NEWS01/310040204/Expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave-signals-about-toddler-in-defendant-s-car-house
A cadaver dog with what handlers call near-perfect accuracy passed 30 cars in an impound lot before alerting on a silver Mercury Grand Marquis driven by a Detroit father charged with killing his 2-year-old daughter.

But defense attorneys for D'Andre Lane, 32, questioned whether the dog's response was authentic because the body of Lane's daughter, Bianca Jones, has not been found.
Prosecutors said Lane, who is on trial in Wayne County County Circuit Court, killed Bianca after a potty-training accident and tried to cover it up by calling police on Dec. 2 to report she was taken in a carjacking.
Police found Lane's car running several blocks away from the alleged carjacking site, but the toddler was missing. Prosecutors say the child is presumed dead.
Dog handler and FBI contractor Martin Grime testified during Lane's trial Wednesday that he and his two English springer spaniels -- Morse and Keela --flew from England to Washington, D.C., then drove to Detroit on Dec. 4 to search for Bianca.
Local investigators took Grime and Morse, who is trained to detect decomposing human remains, to an enclosed garage at the Detroit Police Department's impound lot. Inside, he released Morse, leading him through a maze of 31 parked cars, including Lane's silver Mercury.
"He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... like woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof," Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete.

"What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked.
"There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars.

He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside.
"Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked,
"No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket.
Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no.
But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination.
"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.
"No," Grime said.

He was found Guilty and sentenced to Life.
No body has ever been found.
 
In the case you mentioned, there must've been enough evidence against them regardless of the dogs findings as the dog evidence can only be used as supporting evidence,

Clearly, a dog can only bark therefor can only indicate cadaver presence, not WHO the cadaver is.

If dog evidence alone was good enough, Amaral would've had the McCanns in prison 7yrs ago and there would be no subsequent investigations

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 25.12.14 16:26

@woodforthetrees wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Joss wrote:Forgot to mention it was Martin Grime that gave evidence in the D'Andre Lane Trial.
It was indeed, and the same dog, and the technique they used was EXACTLY the same as in the Madeleine/ case
http://archive.freep.com/article/20121004/NEWS01/310040204/Expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave-signals-about-toddler-in-defendant-s-car-house
A cadaver dog with what handlers call near-perfect accuracy passed 30 cars in an impound lot before alerting on a silver Mercury Grand Marquis driven by a Detroit father charged with killing his 2-year-old daughter.

But defense attorneys for D'Andre Lane, 32, questioned whether the dog's response was authentic because the body of Lane's daughter, Bianca Jones, has not been found.
Prosecutors said Lane, who is on trial in Wayne County County Circuit Court, killed Bianca after a potty-training accident and tried to cover it up by calling police on Dec. 2 to report she was taken in a carjacking.
Police found Lane's car running several blocks away from the alleged carjacking site, but the toddler was missing. Prosecutors say the child is presumed dead.
Dog handler and FBI contractor Martin Grime testified during Lane's trial Wednesday that he and his two English springer spaniels -- Morse and Keela --flew from England to Washington, D.C., then drove to Detroit on Dec. 4 to search for Bianca.
Local investigators took Grime and Morse, who is trained to detect decomposing human remains, to an enclosed garage at the Detroit Police Department's impound lot. Inside, he released Morse, leading him through a maze of 31 parked cars, including Lane's silver Mercury.
"He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... like woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof," Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete.

"What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked.
"There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars.

He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.
Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.
"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside.
"Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked,
"No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket.
Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet.
"Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no.
But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination.
"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.
"No," Grime said.

He was found Guilty and sentenced to Life.
No body has ever been found.
 
In the case you mentioned, there must've been enough evidence against them regardless of the dogs findings as the dog evidence can only be used as supporting evidence,

Clearly, a dog can only bark therefor can only indicate cadaver presence, not WHO the cadaver is.

If dog evidence alone was good enough, Amaral would've had the McCanns in prison 7yrs ago and there would be no subsequent investigations
From Detroit:


Defense attorneys attempted Wednesday to minimize key evidence from a cadaver-detecting dog in the murder trial of a Detroit man accused in the death of his missing toddler.
D'Andre Lane is charged with felony murder and child abuse in the fatal beating of Bianca Jones, 2, over a bed-wetting incident and then disposing of her body and fabricating a carjacking to cover up the crime. The child's body has not been found.
Lane is facing mandatory life in prison if convicted. The case relies on circumstantial evidence and is using a cadaver dog named Morse, who is handled by forensic canine expert Martin Grime.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Khaleesi on 25.12.14 16:33

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a child.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a young blonde girl.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the young blonde girl was wearing pyjamas. 

Jane Tanner never said, not in any oficcial statement anyway, that she saw a blonde girl being carried.

The rog:

4078 “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

4th May statement:

About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

10th May statement:

About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child.

No, margaret, he didn't rubbish Tannerman at all.

On the contrary, he confirmed just how observant she had been in the dark.

Tannerman was genuine all right.

The McTeam promoted for years the idea that the Tannerman was the abductor. Tanner's story actually gave alibi to the Tapas Group males, as Matt, Russell and David were at the table during the Tannerman sighting and Gerry was talking to Jez. All of them were accounted for when the supposed abductor was walking away with Madeleine. Now, thanks to Redwood, the Tannerman, being an innocent dad is out of the story and the timeframe has widened from these few crucial minutes to almost 50. During that time all the males from the Tapas Group (with exception of Payne) were moving to and fro, no witnesses to say what exactly they were doing. Russell, who allegedly was caring for his sick, vomiting child, Matt and his ridiculous checkup, Gerald who was watching footie. No alibi for them anymore. And then we have this little problem with finding out when actually Kate raised alarm. It's a timespan of some twenty minutes, between 21:45 and slightly after 10 pm. Nobody knows where actually was Gerald McCann between the time his wife run out of the Tapas and John Hill arrival. It was not that important when the McTeam had the Tannerman, their allegend perp, looking, very conveniently nothing like any of the Tapas dudes, but now Tannerman is out of the story and we are left with Smithman.

The Smithman who, on these e-fits, resembles at least two males from the Tapas Group, certain Scottish cardiologist included.

The Smithman that does not look like a swarthy foreigner.

You say that this development should make the McTeam feel comfortable?

Hmmm.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 25.12.14 16:48

PeterMac, you have been in contact with a number of people connected to this case, and have handed in evidence to Operation Grange, and I wonder if you have been in contact with Martin Grime?
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 25.12.14 19:03

@Khaleesi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a child.

Just as Jane Tanner said, he was carrying a young blonde girl.

Just as Jane Tanner said, the young blonde girl was wearing pyjamas. 

Jane Tanner never said, not in any oficcial statement anyway, that she saw a blonde girl being carried.

The rog:

4078    “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply    “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

4th May statement:

About the child whom appeared to be sleeping, she only saw her legs. The child appeared to be older than a baby. She was barefoot and was wearing what appeared to be cotton pyjamas of a light colour (possibly white or light pink). She is not certain, but has the impression a design on the pyjamas, possibly a floral pattern, but she is not certain.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

10th May statement:

About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child.

No, margaret, he didn't rubbish Tannerman at all.

On the contrary, he confirmed just how observant she had been in the dark.

Tannerman was genuine all right.

The McTeam promoted for years the idea that the Tannerman was the abductor. Tanner's story actually gave alibi to the Tapas Group males, as Matt, Russell and David were at the table during the Tannerman sighting and Gerry was talking to Jez. All of them were accounted for when the supposed abductor was walking away with Madeleine. Now, thanks to Redwood, the Tannerman, being an innocent dad is out of the story and the timeframe has widened from these few crucial minutes to almost 50. During that time all the males from the Tapas Group (with exception of Payne) were moving to and fro, no witnesses to say what exactly they were doing. Russell, who allegedly was caring for his sick, vomiting child, Matt and his ridiculous checkup, Gerald who was watching footie. No alibi for them anymore. And then we have this little problem with finding out when actually Kate raised alarm. It's a timespan of some twenty minutes, between 21:45 and slightly after 10 pm. Nobody knows where actually was Gerald McCann between the time his wife run out of the Tapas and John Hill arrival. It was not that important when the McTeam had the Tannerman, their allegend perp, looking, very conveniently nothing like any of the Tapas dudes, but now Tannerman is out of the story and we are left with Smithman.

The Smithman who, on these e-fits, resembles at least two males from the Tapas Group, certain Scottish cardiologist included.

The Smithman that does not look like a swarthy foreigner.

You say that this development should make the McTeam feel comfortable?

Hmmm.
Tanner man was good for supporting a theory where an abductor broke in and stole a live Madaleine. Now SY are of the belief she was dead, it means the cadaver is being seen as supporting evidence. With this in mind, it wipes out the '3 minute abduction' theory and puts focus on the falsified child checking rota.
Smith man fits the right timeframe for allowing enough time to commit the act, kill Madaleine, for cadaver to develop and cover Gerry et al on any suspect neglect charges.

Basically, smith man fits a picture,painted by SY which fulfills their lone paedo patsy and keeps everyone else in the clear.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Khaleesi on 25.12.14 19:38

@woodforthetrees wrote:
Tanner man was good for supporting a theory where an abductor broke in and stole a live Madaleine. Now SY are of the belief she was dead, it means the cadaver is being seen as supporting evidence. With this in mind, it wipes out the '3 minute abduction' theory and puts focus on the falsified child checking rota.
Smith man fits the right timeframe for allowing enough time to commit the act, kill Madaleine, for cadaver to develop and cover Gerry et al on any suspect neglect charges.

Basically, smith man fits a picture,painted by SY which fulfills their lone paedo patsy and keeps everyone else in the clear.

Exactly how? Explain, please. Because, you know, if this theoretical lone patsy killed Maddie after the last Gerry's check and then left with her body shortly before Kate's check, then it makes an ass out of Matt who did not notice a man, hiding in the apartment, and out of the rest of the Tapas crew, who were doing their checks, walking repeatedly past the McCanns apartment, unable to hear the lone paedo patsy raping and murdering the child.
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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by canada12 on 25.12.14 19:44

And through it all, the twins slept on peacefully, never stirring, never waking, not even when the stranger made a clatter opening the blinds and climbing out through the window with a nearly-four-year old in his arms.

Not bloody likely.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by columbostogeys on 26.12.14 6:59

@canada12 wrote:And through it all, the twins slept on peacefully, never stirring, never waking, not even when the stranger made a clatter opening the blinds and climbing out through the window with a nearly-four-year old in his arms.

Not bloody likely.
EXACLTY, yet we are told one of the twins was crying the night before when no parent came to console the children.....give me a break.....

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