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"And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

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"And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by utahagen on 20.12.14 1:38

There are sincere, intelligent posters who believe there is a conspiracy to shelve or complete the Madeleine McCann investigation in such a way that Gerry and Kate McCann are either exonerated or (at least) not implicated. I do not believe there is such a conspiracy and am posting this particularly to those who also do not believe there is a conspiracy. (I am not being disrespectful towards those who do believe in a conspiracy; it's simply that I know I am not going to be able to persuade anyone there is no conspiracy with this one post.)

Whereas I used to be -- say, two years ago -- exasperated and disheartened when I read about SY's chasing after far-fetched would-be suspects such as bumbling burglars and infertile couples, I now am buoyed by such stories. In the event that the McCanns are ever declared formal suspects or arrested, their expensive lawyers will argue, directly or through the press, that the police never looked into the Mysterious Maid Who Quit Her Job at the Algarve Just after Madeleine Disappeared or the Oddball Who Lives with His Aunt and Probably Grabbed Madeleine Because She Was Pretty. Yet, isn't that going to be much harder to argue after the last year?

The way things are going, by February, the only people who will not have been investigated and reinterviewed will be the McCanns and their vacationing cohorts. I predict that SY and the OG within the next nine months will ask the Tapas Nine to sit for new interviews in Portugal. Will the McCanns' lawyers allow them to do this? Probably not. Yet, it is going to be tough to make the argument that the McCanns should not return to Portugal because the police haven't considered any other suspects. In the last year alone, the police from both countries have looked at pretty much everyone besides the McCanns and their friends.

If I were the McCanns, I would be thinking that NEXT Christmas may be a very different one from this one.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by Sceptic on 20.12.14 5:34

Here here I agree

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by Joss on 20.12.14 5:52

I think you make a valid point about the thorough investigation into all and sundry of potential perps in this case, so all ground is covered in case this case ever goes to Trial. Yet if that is the case why has it taken so long to cover such ground? All these "suspects" should well and truly have been interviewed by now IMO. I wonder how much longer they can drag it all out for, how many more millions of taxpayer money to throw at this one case?
And why on earth would they not question the McC's and their Tapas friends further to establish any further details in the case?
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tick-tock, Kate and Gerry

Post by utahagen on 20.12.14 12:16

Joss wrote, "...why has it taken so long...All these "suspects" should well and truly have been interviewed by now...And why on earth would they not question the McC's and their Tapas friends further..."

Joss, as all of us know, this seven years plus long investigation has been aborted and derailed at various points, for reasons too complicated to elucidate and debate in just a couple of posts. However, I do believe that during the last year, SY has become more focused and it seems they really are trying to wrap this up. As for why they have not yet re-interviewed the McCanns et al, my point in the prior post is that SY intends the Tapas Nine to be the very last people they interview/re-interview so that the McCanns seem even more desperate when they protest that SY haven't chased enough leads besides them. Every week that passes, every silly tabloid story about Algarve oddballs who are being questioned that is published, the pressure builds upon the McCanns, who must be thinking, "They are crossing everyone else off the list...soon they'll come knocking on our door."

I predict that the McCanns will finally lose their lawsuit against Amaral in, as has been indicated, February. After that, SY will announce that they want the McCanns to return to Portugal for questioning, reenactments, etc. I further predict that their lawyers will do everything they can to prevent the McCanns from having to return to Portugal. The argument will be that the case has been bungled from the start, the McCanns need to focus on their living children, etc. It will be baloney, and the public will see through it (finally), but they won't have a choice but to delay returning to Portugal, where they could have the cuffs slapped on them. People may argue, "Oh, it doesn't matter if the McCanns are arrested because they'll never be convicted." Well, I'm not so sure they won't be convicted, and, anyway, a mere arrest would be disasterous for the McCanns, who have cultivated an image of do-gooder, middle class victims. The trial would bring the real facts out in the open, and there would be no more honorary posts or fundraisers for the McCanns after that.

Tick-tock, Kate and Gerry...tick-tock.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by ScarletLaw on 20.12.14 12:37

@utahagen wrote:There are sincere, intelligent posters who believe there is a conspiracy to shelve or complete the Madeleine McCann investigation in such a way that Gerry and Kate McCann are either exonerated or (at least) not implicated. I do not believe there is such a conspiracy and am posting this particularly to those who also do not believe there is a conspiracy. (I am not being disrespectful towards those who do believe in a conspiracy; it's simply that I know I am not going to be able to persuade anyone there is no conspiracy with this one post.)

Whereas I used to be -- say, two years ago -- exasperated and disheartened when I read about SY's chasing after far-fetched would-be suspects such as bumbling burglars and infertile couples, I now am buoyed by such stories. In the event that the McCanns are ever declared formal suspects or arrested, their expensive lawyers will argue, directly or through the press, that the police never looked into the Mysterious Maid Who Quit Her Job at the Algarve Just after Madeleine Disappeared or the Oddball Who Lives with His Aunt and Probably Grabbed Madeleine Because She Was Pretty. Yet, isn't that going to be much harder to argue after the last year?

The way things are going, by February, the only people who will not have been investigated and reinterviewed will be the McCanns and their vacationing cohorts. I predict that SY and the OG within the next nine months will ask the Tapas Nine to sit for new interviews in Portugal. Will the McCanns' lawyers allow them to do this? Probably not. Yet, it is going to be tough to make the argument that the McCanns should not return to Portugal because the police haven't considered any other suspects. In the last year alone, the police from both countries have looked at pretty much everyone besides the McCanns and their friends.

If I were the McCanns, I would be thinking that NEXT Christmas may be a very different one from this one.
I know the McCanns were asked to do Andy Redwoods reconstruction and turned him down which according to the papers ended up with actors. Not exactly helpful to him and must have sent alarm bells ringing for Scotland Yard. When he started I presumed he would have interviewed the Tapas group, if he hasn't-we don't know that for sure, then obviously something a foot has happened. I've heard on good authority that they're conclusion will be an abductor went off with Madeleine and they won't be being charged on anything. They for whatever reason, my guess is Gerry's mason friendships and work for the government- likely both, have kept this couple from prosecution for seven years (if they are helping) and to suddenly turn around and say that it was parents all the time and £10,000,000 has been wasted of tax payers money would cause an uproar in the public. So they won't be charged with anything.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by Guest on 20.12.14 12:41

If OG charged the parents and they were found guilty by a court, I think that £10m would be very well spent!

ETA: So you've heard on good authority that the parents won't be charged with anything as it was an abductor.  Do you have any other titbits you could share with us?
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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by ScarletLaw on 20.12.14 13:38

Ladyinred wrote:If OG charged the parents and they were found guilty by a court, I think that £10m would be very well spent!

ETA: So you've heard on good authority that the parents won't be charged with anything as it was an abductor.  Do you have any other titbits you could share with us?



All I can say is that there are quite a few policeman who aren't happy that the McCanns are getting special treatment and they believe there's been too much government involvement and they're just as unhappy as the public are. I don't know anyone directly but I've read things on forums where these people have vented their anger and Scotland Yard were refusing to look at anything else. One in particular said some things that later were confirmed by the actions of Redwood and he said that this would end up with the abductor theory alone. He was particularly upset because Interpol too were convinced it was the parents and that they had been ignored. I also read between the lines of the psychology of the Scotland Yard statements and actions and what they're feeding us through media.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by suzyjohnson on 20.12.14 13:53

I believe the police would want to build as complete a picture of events as possible before they re question the tapas group. (Even if they did set out initially to find out who abducted MM, reading and hearing all the evidence must have led detectives to consider all alternatives)  

In the past the tapas group have been able to throw almost anything they like into their interviews. They may not be quite so sure of themselves this time, how will any of them know what SY have been told by all the other witnesses? 

Anyone on that phone list could have been walking around near the apartments on the night of May 3rd. Not only able to see what did happen, but also to see what did not.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by Joss on 20.12.14 16:50

@utahagen wrote:Joss wrote, "...why has it taken so long...All these "suspects" should well and truly have been interviewed by now...And why on earth would they not question the McC's and their Tapas friends further..."

Joss, as all of us know, this seven years plus long investigation has been aborted and derailed at various points, for reasons too complicated to elucidate and debate in just a couple of posts. However, I do believe that during the last year, SY has become more focused and it seems they really are trying to wrap this up. As for why they have not yet re-interviewed the McCanns et al, my point in the prior post is that SY intends the Tapas Nine to be the very last people they interview/re-interview so that the McCanns seem even more desperate when they protest that SY haven't chased enough leads besides them. Every week that passes, every silly tabloid story about Algarve oddballs who are being questioned that is published, the pressure builds upon the McCanns, who must be thinking, "They are crossing everyone else off the list...soon they'll come knocking on our door."

I predict that the McCanns will finally lose their lawsuit against Amaral in, as has been indicated, February. After that, SY will announce that they want the McCanns to return to Portugal for questioning, reenactments, etc. I further predict that their lawyers will do everything they can to prevent the McCanns from having to return to Portugal. The argument will be that the case has been bungled from the start, the McCanns need to focus on their living children, etc. It will be baloney, and the public will see through it (finally), but they won't have a choice but to delay returning to Portugal, where they could have the cuffs slapped on them. People may argue, "Oh, it doesn't matter if the McCanns are arrested because they'll never be convicted." Well, I'm not so sure they won't be convicted, and, anyway, a mere arrest would be disasterous for the McCanns, who have cultivated an image of do-gooder, middle class victims. The trial would bring the real facts out in the open, and there would be no more honorary posts or fundraisers for the McCanns after that.

Tick-tock, Kate and Gerry...tick-tock.
I hope you are right. I'm not so confident though that the McC's will ever be held to account with the high level of protection they have had throughout. But as they say, it ain't over till the fat lady sings.
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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by phil_burton on 22.12.14 21:40

I'm currently 50:50 as to whether this is all a whitewash, or whether there is a relentless albeit slow push towards justice.

I read Blacksmiths blogs, he/she seems very knowledgeable, with at least a sprinkling of inside information. They are claiming that the SY investigation is real, and will yield results, but there hasn't been a solid indicator that SY are heading this way, and the amount of time they've spent looking at every other thesis precludes them looking at the Mccanns.

Surely ruling out all these tom, dick and Harry suspects would take absolutely no time, whilst at the same time, implicating the Mccanns can be done with existing evidence.

If there are strong suspicions against certain suspects, then what kind of investigation concentrates on eliminating all other leads first?

This isn't a Sherlockian mystery that the Mccanns would have us all believe, there is no need to eliminate the impossible to finally land upon the improbable, to paraphrase the great detective.

Having said all of that, there are a few things that give me hope. Firstly, the vast majority of stories that we hear in the MSM come from a "source" ie BS, probably from Clarence Mitchell. If you filter out all of the noise, there's been very little clue from SY as to what they're looking at, there have been statements, but they Re keeping their cards close to their chest, and the Mcanns themselves are clearly not being kept in the loop.

Secondly, interviewing Murat and his wife doesn't fit with the bungled burglary scenario. If the intention was to pin this on someone else, why would they be sailing this close to the wind by interviewing Murat? 

Thirdly, the climate in the UK at the moment is one where there appears to be a concerted effort to rid the cupboard of a few skeletons, mainly child abuse skeletons. The Saville exposė, the current abuse investigation, Gordon Brown being implicated and resigning...this is potentially the right kind of climate in which an investigation in to the Mccanns might be urged to come good.

In summary; who knows.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by aquila on 22.12.14 23:00

@phil_burton wrote:I'm currently 50:50 as to whether this is all a whitewash, or whether there is a relentless albeit slow push towards justice.

I read Blacksmiths blogs, he/she seems very knowledgeable, with at least a sprinkling of inside information. They are claiming that the SY investigation is real, and will yield results, but there hasn't been a solid indicator that SY are heading this way, and the amount of time they've spent looking at every other thesis precludes them looking at the Mccanns.

You believe the Bullshit bureau has a sprinkling of inside information?

Surely ruling out all these tom, dick and Harry suspects would take absolutely no time, whilst at the same time, implicating the Mccanns can be done with existing evidence.

If there are strong suspicions against certain suspects, then what kind of investigation concentrates on eliminating all other leads first?

This isn't a Sherlockian mystery that the Mccanns would have us all believe, there is no need to eliminate the impossible to finally land upon the improbable, to paraphrase the great detective.

Having said all of that, there are a few things that give me hope. ry lFirstly, the vast majority of stories that we hear in the MSM come from a "source" ie BS, probably from Clarence Mitchell. If you filter out all of the noise, there's been veittle clue from SY as to what they're looking at, there have been statements, but they Re keeping their cards close to their chest, and the Mcanns themselves are clearly not being kept in the loop.

What the hell was the CrimeWatch farce, Andy Redwood riding in a helicopter flying over PDL and the subsequent digs with dogs?

Secondly, interviewing Murat and his wife doesn't fit with the bungled burglary scenario. If the intention was to pin this on someone else, why would they be sailing this close to the wind by interviewing Murat? 

Thirdly, the climate in the UK at the moment is one where there appears to be a concerted effort to rid the cupboard of a few skeletons, mainly child abuse skeletons. The Saville exposė, the current abuse investigation, Gordon Brown being implicated and resigning...this is potentially the right kind of climate in which an investigation in to the Mccanns might be urged to come good.

A concerted effort to rid the cupboard of a few skeletons? I think not. There's a CSA inquiry that can't even put up a credible chairperson. The only people 'brought to book' are the dead and a handful of celebrities.

In summary; who knows.
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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by ScarletLaw on 22.12.14 23:06

I agree with Phil and don't think the McCanns are kept in the loop either. Reading between the lines I think there are two separate camps now and Scotland Yard are kind of stuck and don't know how to end this thing, mainly because they can't afford another scandal with the abuse home cover ups on the horizon.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by aquila on 23.12.14 0:49

@ScarletLaw wrote:I agree with Phil and don't think the McCanns are kept in the loop either. Reading between the lines I think there are two separate camps now and Scotland Yard are kind of stuck and don't know how to end this thing, mainly because they can't afford another scandal with the abuse home cover ups on the horizon.
Read your words...that really says something about Scotland Yard doesn't it...can't afford another scandal.

Some people believe (this makes me choke) that the Madeleine case will be cracked because there's an election on the horizon.

What the **** does that say about the last three and a half years of a SY inquiry?

That it will be cracked because there's a political reason for it to come to a miraculous end due to an impending election/can't afford another scandal. That's really clutching at straws and pushing the boundaries of optimism beyond the realms of fantasy.

It's because we want to believe things that we believe them.

We want to believe SY will come and do the business.

We want never to believe parents can harm their children.

We want to believe (this one is amazing) that the media have a whole store of stuff they're just sitting on and can't wait to let rip but at the moment they're gagged by super-inaudibles.

We want to believe the PJ are not complicit in a cover up.

We want to believe there is justice and that justice is about fairness.

We want to believe we are protected.

That's it you see, we want to believe....every PR company's dream. Clarence said it was a great campaign didn't he?
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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by ScarletLaw on 23.12.14 9:00

@aquila wrote:
@ScarletLaw wrote:I agree with Phil and don't think the McCanns are kept in the loop either. Reading between the lines I think there are two separate camps now and Scotland Yard are kind of stuck and don't know how to end this thing, mainly because they can't afford another scandal with the abuse home cover ups on the horizon.
Read your words...that really says something about Scotland Yard doesn't it...can't afford another scandal.

Some people believe (this makes me choke) that the Madeleine case will be cracked because there's an election on the horizon.

What the **** does that say about the last three and a half years of a SY inquiry?

That it will be cracked because there's a political reason for it to come to a miraculous end due to an impending election/can't afford another scandal. That's really clutching at straws and pushing the boundaries of optimism beyond the realms of fantasy.

It's because we want to believe things that we believe them.

We want to believe SY will come and do the business.

We want never to believe parents can harm their children.

We want to believe (this one is amazing) that the media have a whole store of stuff they're just sitting on and can't wait to let rip but at the moment they're gagged by super-inaudibles.

We want to believe the PJ are not complicit in a cover up.

We want to believe there is justice and that justice is about fairness.

We want to believe we are protected.

That's it you see, we want to believe....every PR company's dream. Clarence said it was a great campaign didn't he?

I agree people do want Scotland Yard to do the right thing and for me, that's the way out of it. If they have to sacrifice Gerry then that's what they have to do. They're worried about Gerry's mouth is my guess because the McCanns like to play themselves victims and blame others. The Portugese police did a crap investigation; the Inspector was incompetent , the man who had the dogs signalled to them. It's always someone else's fault with them. And the fall out will see Gerry try and drag others into it by blame. As for Clarences campaign- Of "surely every parent isn't perfect" and "haven't you done things that put your kids at harm"-it's total bullocks. It has been from the beginning a dated strategy too that went out when Ogilvy hung up his advertising brogues. His interviews have always been a monumental cock up and badly planned. A massive mistake of Clarences too was trying to silence the press and advising them to take part in the press enquiry. Once the shackles are off, if things go well in February with the libel trial, they will go for the McCanns with full force and he knows this. Hence the damage limitation with his "little helpers" on here now trying to pull people off in different directions and trying to cut others off from them who are telling them the truth. The Game is on! -as sexy Benedict as Sherlock says, and this is the most critical time if we're going to get justice.

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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by aquila on 23.12.14 10:13

@ScarletLaw wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@ScarletLaw wrote:I agree with Phil and don't think the McCanns are kept in the loop either. Reading between the lines I think there are two separate camps now and Scotland Yard are kind of stuck and don't know how to end this thing, mainly because they can't afford another scandal with the abuse home cover ups on the horizon.
Read your words...that really says something about Scotland Yard doesn't it...can't afford another scandal.

Some people believe (this makes me choke) that the Madeleine case will be cracked because there's an election on the horizon.

What the **** does that say about the last three and a half years of a SY inquiry?

That it will be cracked because there's a political reason for it to come to a miraculous end due to an impending election/can't afford another scandal. That's really clutching at straws and pushing the boundaries of optimism beyond the realms of fantasy.

It's because we want to believe things that we believe them.

We want to believe SY will come and do the business.

We want never to believe parents can harm their children.

We want to believe (this one is amazing) that the media have a whole store of stuff they're just sitting on and can't wait to let rip but at the moment they're gagged by super-inaudibles.

We want to believe the PJ are not complicit in a cover up.

We want to believe there is justice and that justice is about fairness.

We want to believe we are protected.

That's it you see, we want to believe....every PR company's dream. Clarence said it was a great campaign didn't he?

I agree people do want Scotland Yard to do the right thing and for me, that's the way out of it. If they have to sacrifice Gerry then that's what they have to do. They're worried about Gerry's mouth is my guess because the McCanns like to play themselves victims and blame others. The Portugese police did a crap investigation; the Inspector was incompetent , the man who had the dogs signalled to them. It's always someone else's fault with them. And the fall out will see Gerry try and drag others into it by blame. As for Clarences campaign- Of "surely every parent isn't perfect" and "haven't you done things that put your kids at harm"-it's total bullocks. It has been from the beginning a dated strategy too that went out when Ogilvy hung up his advertising brogues. His interviews have always been a monumental cock up and badly planned. A massive mistake of Clarences too was trying to silence the press and advising them to take part in the press enquiry. Once the shackles are off, if things go well in February with the libel trial, they will go for the McCanns with full force and he knows this. Hence the damage limitation with his "little helpers" on here now trying to pull people off in different directions and trying to cut others off from them who are telling them the truth. The Game is on! -as sexy Benedict as Sherlock says, and this is the most critical time if we're going to get justice.
Good post ScarletLaw, although I'm still on the whitewash side of the fence (and I don't want to be).

I can't see the Lisbon trial coming to an end in February/March. There always seems to be a handy spare spanner thrown into the works at the last moment. This trial is older than Madeleine was when she went missing.
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Re: "And Then There Were None [or Nine]"

Post by ScarletLaw on 23.12.14 10:25

@aquila wrote:
@ScarletLaw wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@ScarletLaw wrote:I agree with Phil and don't think the McCanns are kept in the loop either. Reading between the lines I think there are two separate camps now and Scotland Yard are kind of stuck and don't know how to end this thing, mainly because they can't afford another scandal with the abuse home cover ups on the horizon.
Read your words...that really says something about Scotland Yard doesn't it...can't afford another scandal.

Some people believe (this makes me choke) that the Madeleine case will be cracked because there's an election on the horizon.

What the **** does that say about the last three and a half years of a SY inquiry?

That it will be cracked because there's a political reason for it to come to a miraculous end due to an impending election/can't afford another scandal. That's really clutching at straws and pushing the boundaries of optimism beyond the realms of fantasy.

It's because we want to believe things that we believe them.

We want to believe SY will come and do the business.

We want never to believe parents can harm their children.

We want to believe (this one is amazing) that the media have a whole store of stuff they're just sitting on and can't wait to let rip but at the moment they're gagged by super-inaudibles.

We want to believe the PJ are not complicit in a cover up.

We want to believe there is justice and that justice is about fairness.

We want to believe we are protected.

That's it you see, we want to believe....every PR company's dream. Clarence said it was a great campaign didn't he?

I agree people do want Scotland Yard to do the right thing and for me, that's the way out of it. If they have to sacrifice Gerry then that's what they have to do. They're worried about Gerry's mouth is my guess because the McCanns like to play themselves victims and blame others. The Portugese police did a crap investigation; the Inspector was incompetent , the man who had the dogs signalled to them. It's always someone else's fault with them. And the fall out will see Gerry try and drag others into it by blame. As for Clarences campaign- Of "surely every parent isn't perfect" and "haven't you done things that put your kids at harm"-it's total bullocks. It has been from the beginning a dated strategy too that went out when Ogilvy hung up his advertising brogues. His interviews have always been a monumental cock up and badly planned. A massive mistake of Clarences too was trying to silence the press and advising them to take part in the press enquiry. Once the shackles are off, if things go well in February with the libel trial, they will go for the McCanns with full force and he knows this. Hence the damage limitation with his "little helpers" on here now trying to pull people off in different directions and trying to cut others off from them who are telling them the truth. The Game is on! -as sexy Benedict as Sherlock says, and this is the most critical time if we're going to get justice.
Good post ScarletLaw, although I'm still on the whitewash side of the fence (and I don't want to be).

I can't see the Lisbon trial coming to an end in February/March. There always seems to be a handy spare spanner thrown into the works at the last moment. This trial is older than Madeleine was when she went missing.

 A white wash is the biggest probability in outcome especially with the Chief being linked to the Barry George stitch- up, sorry trial.  I also think even if he does win, they will be an appeal and it will be all back on again because his book being published in this country will ruin them and they have no choice now but to shackle him. I feel very sorry for the Inspector because they are going to drag this out as much as they can.

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