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Post by plebgate on 30.12.14 1:09

@j.rob wrote:Snipped from https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3888-apt-5j-what-q-says-about-the-gnr-search-and-rescue-dogs (my emphasis in bold):



From the dog search statements, I think Administration had the keys to 5J:

"On 10th May at about 20h10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose andthose apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator".
With regard to when certain apartments were entered by police for the first time, I do not think apartment 5J was entered as early as 3/4th May.






http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html


It would seem to me that 5J was ony entered on the 7th, or more likely the 10th May, for the first time. If so, why did it take that long to gain entry? Possible delay tactics could have been, the owner could not be contacted, or the owner refused to give permission maybe?

Would Administration even know if the owner, or someone they knew, used that apartment for a few days? As I cannot imagine the owner having to report to them as and when they want to use their own apartment.

As far as I can tell, the apartment directly above 5J is 5N. The one directly below it is 5F, both of those apartments are not cleaned or presumably rented out, which probably means they are owner occupied, or sitting empty just like 5J.
so, nobody knew that apartment 5j was being used by members of the tapas crew, so why would any of the T crew want to lead the dogs/police to that apartment by leaving rotting meat in the fridge in said apartment?

There would have been plenty of time (if one of them had the key) to get rid of any rotting material before it was searched by the dogs.  I cannot understand why anybody would want to lead the police to an apartment where something may have happened to Maddie?

Sorry, I could well be reading your posts wrongly, but it is not adding up for me.
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Post by Hobs on 30.12.14 1:24

@plebgate wrote:
@j.rob wrote:Snipped from https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3888-apt-5j-what-q-says-about-the-gnr-search-and-rescue-dogs (my emphasis in bold):



From the dog search statements, I think Administration had the keys to 5J:

"On 10th May at about 20h10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose andthose apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator".
With regard to when certain apartments were entered by police for the first time, I do not think apartment 5J was entered as early as 3/4th May.






http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html


It would seem to me that 5J was ony entered on the 7th, or more likely the 10th May, for the first time. If so, why did it take that long to gain entry? Possible delay tactics could have been, the owner could not be contacted, or the owner refused to give permission maybe?

Would Administration even know if the owner, or someone they knew, used that apartment for a few days? As I cannot imagine the owner having to report to them as and when they want to use their own apartment.

As far as I can tell, the apartment directly above 5J is 5N. The one directly below it is 5F, both of those apartments are not cleaned or presumably rented out, which probably means they are owner occupied, or sitting empty just like 5J.
so, nobody knew that apartment 5j was being used by members of the tapas crew, so why would any of the T crew want to lead the dogs/police to that apartment by leaving rotting meat in the fridge in said apartment?

There would have been plenty of time (if one of them had the key) to get rid of any rotting material before it was searched by the dogs.  I cannot understand why anybody would want to lead the police to an apartment where something may have happened to Maddie?

Sorry, I could well be reading your posts wrongly, but it is not adding up for me.
An off the wall possible explanation perhaps?

From what we know and can deduce, Madeleine was frozen or at least kept in a cold environment ie a freezer or fridge.

Is it possible that Maddie was placed in the fridge in 5j for temporary storage.
Since she would take up a lot of the space, the items in said fridge were removed and placed elsewhere in the apartment.
THis would allow time for them to come up with a new location which was not likely to be searched  or searched again (always the best way to dump a body is somewhere that has already been searched and cleared. If found later the police/searchers are immediately blamed for shoddy work and the defence can claim it wasn't their client since they weren't there or didn't have time to dump them at said site after the crime)

Maddie is kept cold or even partially frozen whilst the food goes off.

Maddie is then moved when they have a new dump site or think the apartment would be searched and there may be incriminating evidence on or in her body.

Once removed, the food is then replaced and the fridge turned off or, if it is knackered , left6 as.

The dogs react to the smell perhaps cadaverine etc and when the police look all they see is rotten meat and veg.

One would need to ask ( well i would) why would there be veg and meat in an empty apartment?
I would also have checked the use by/expiry dates to see how recent the purchases were.

I would also have checked the apartment especially the fridge for prints and dna and also taken all the veg and meat and had that checked out for prints/dna etc

If prints or dna turned up from the mmcanns, Maddie or any of the tapas group, i would be asking a lot of awkward questions.

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Post by plebgate on 30.12.14 1:38

How would they have the key to 5j?    How many more people are supposedly involved in all of this and is the owner of 5j on the list to be interviewed?

Rotting meat and veg could well have been left there by previous guests and maybe the place wasn't cleaned after they moved out?

It's all very complicated and would require too many people  to be involved imo.
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Post by j.rob on 30.12.14 11:28

5J was not in the offer of the Ocean Club, it was a private offer. It was entered the same day as the rest of the apartments in the block 5.


------


No - apartment 5A, for instance, was entered by police and searched late on Thursday 3rd May and in the early hours of Friday 4th May. And it is on record that Gerry demanded keys to other apartments in the early days so they could be searched. It would appear that some apartments could not be searched until as late as the 7th or even 10th May. This would be consistent with carrying out searches over a large resort and trying to gain entry to privately-owned apartments whose owners could not be contacted, for whatever reason. Or apartments where no-one at OC had a skeleton key to.




-------


Whilst I agree that  Jez and Murat are of interest,  I think that to suggest that Jez mentioning he finds Murat's card in his luggage when he  gets home is a message/warning is a little far fetched. He was making a statement to the police and at the time could not have known that anyone other than the police would see that statement.



--------


Quite so. But why reveal this little snippet of information? For what purpose? Murat was on the scene early on acting as a translator. He  may have handed out his cards left, right and center for all we know. Many other holiday-makers may have been given his card. But they probably would not pass on this fact to police as they would think it not particularly relevant. But Jez does not say that Murat handed him his card. He says that he finds Murat's card in a bag that he is cleaning. The implication is clear - he was not given the card but someone put it there. And how many fathers and husbands make a priority of cleaning bags of whatever description when they return from holiday? Why would he reveal this information, whether it is true that he cleaned a bag containing Murat's card or not? Why not just state that he inexplicably found Murat's card in a bag and he wondered how it got there? 


No - Jez is firmly putting Murat in the frame. Or it could be that Murat or someone from TM, perhaps, placed Murat's card in a bag of Jez in order to warn him. And Jez retaliates by revealing this information to police - just to keep TM on their toes.


Who knows, the whole thing is so incestuous, what with Murat acting as a police translator both in Norfolk and then in Luz. And Jez having strong media contacts, presumably. And David Payne contacting Sky News as a matter of priority within hours of Madeleine's alleged 'abduction'. The whole thing just screams out giant media scam. 


--------------------
How would they have the key to 5j?    How many more people are supposedly involved in all of this and is the owner of 5j on the list to be interviewed?

Rotting meat and veg could well have been left there by previous guests and maybe the place wasn't cleaned after they moved out?

It's all very complicated and would require too many people  to be involved imo.

-----


How would anyone get any key to any apartment? An agreement is reached, perhaps. Someone is persuaded to pull a favor. Mark Warner find themselves implicated and manage to get the keys to an empty apartment. I am sure the owner of 5J was of interest to Portuguese police. I think there is more on who may have owned or let 5J on the thread uplink. 


Yes, of  course it is possible that rotting meat and veg were left there. But the sniffer dogs were mighty interested in that apartment. And they are highly trained to know what to alert at and what not to alert at.


Well of course it is very complicated with a lot of people involved. That is why it is taking so long to unravel. If it was simple and straightforward it would either have been solved or it would have been whitewashed completely and long since forgotten, imo. 


--------


From what we know and can deduce, Madeleine was frozen or at least kept in a cold environment ie a freezer or fridge.


Yes. This is what Detective Amaral thinks. And he must know a lot more about what happened than many. 

Is it possible that Maddie was placed in the fridge in 5j for temporary storage.


If Amaral's theory is right, and the McCanns were occupying 5A for at least part of their stay at OC, they would hardly place Madeleine's poor little body in a fridge/freezer in 5A or whatever apartment they were occupying. Safer to use an unoccupied apartment, imo.

Since she would take up a lot of the space, the items in said fridge were removed and placed elsewhere in the apartment.


That would suggest a very last minute, panic situation. Which of course is not impossible. It could also be that this was done deliberately to account for any bad odours coming from the apartment. And to try to account for why the sniffer dogs alerted (the Mcs do get themselves in a pickle over sniffer dogs. I think they didn't quite get their homework right over this....)

THis would allow time for them to come up with a new location which was not likely to be searched  or searched again (always the best way to dump a body is somewhere that has already been searched and cleared. If found later the police/searchers are immediately blamed for shoddy work and the defence can claim it wasn't their client since they weren't there or didn't have time to dump them at said site after the crime)


If apartment 5J was not entered until 7th May or even 10th May, then there is time to 'prepare the scene' as it were, in order to lay a false trail, perhaps. Or to cover up the scent of death with a decoy scent. Gerry's blog about dumping a fridge/freezer which was whooshed very quickly suggests that a fridge/freezer was an important part of what happened to poor little Madeleine's body. As Detective Amaral believes.

Maddie is kept cold or even partially frozen whilst the food goes off.


Given that I believe something went wrong that week, I think TM were forced to act at the last minute and were in a panic. Everything points to this - the time-lines that don't add up; the conflicting police statements; Jane Tanner's ridiculous sighting. Covering up the scent of cadaver by leaving rotting meat and veg would be very much in line with the TM modus operandi. Rather like their flimsy excuses for why the cadaver dogs alerted to the hire car, to Kate's clothes and to the apartment. Their excuses are risible - all of them. They may as well have been walking around with stockings over their heads and a swag bag, so guilty do they look.

Maddie is then moved when they have a new dump site or think the apartment would be searched and there may be incriminating evidence on or in her body.


Yes. The removal of a body must have been done in stages, imo. Detective Amaral's theory about refridgeration/freezing must be based on forensic findings - such as fluids in the hire car. (That poor child. What a horrible end she must have had.)

Once removed, the food is then replaced and the fridge turned off or, if it is knackered , left6 as.


The dogs react to the smell perhaps cadaverine etc and when the police look all they see is rotten meat and veg.


I think this would be consistent with the TM ('hatchet job' ) faked, staged abduction and then the attempted concealment of a body. As broadly put forward by Detective Amaral put forward in his book.

One would need to ask ( well i would) why would there be veg and meat in an empty apartment?
I would also have checked the use by/expiry dates to see how recent the purchases were.


That would be interesting. If the apartment was empty for some time, then when had the food been left? How many weeks, months back had the apartment been occupied? This would lead clues as to whether someone had planted the food when the apartment was empty and let it go rotten as a deliberate attempt to cover up their tracks. No doubt Portuguese police have looked into this. 

I would also have checked the apartment especially the fridge for prints and dna and also taken all the veg and meat and had that checked out for prints/dna etc


Yes. The sniffer dogs do not lie. And they are highly trained to ignore scents that are not relevant and only to alert to scents that are relevant to helping a criminal investigation. 

If prints or dna turned up from the mmcanns, Maddie or any of the tapas group, i would be asking a lot of awkward questions.



Quite so. And it is also of interest in my opinion, that trays of food were left outside the Paynes apartment, I do believe, plus also at least one other (possibly empty) apartment nearby. And quite a few bags of rubbish too? Not sure of details but more on this from the thread linked up-thread. When you also take into account the McCann's excuses for alerts of the sniffer dogs to the hire car - that it was due to smelly nappies and rotting food and Sean developing a taste for sea-bass. And the McCann's excuses for the sniffer dog alerts to blood findings in the apartment and in the hire car - that it was due to Madeleine having had a nose-bleed in the apartment and due to meat leaking blood in the car - then I think a very clear picture emerges of rather desperate and not believable excuses for the sniffer dog findings.


Those pesky sniffer dogs, eh? TM thought they were so clever but they are not nearly as clever as the dogs.


TM and Clarence open their mouths and lies come out. The sniffer dogs can't speak ('ask the dogs, Sandra') but they don't lie. IMO.
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Post by Rufus T on 30.12.14 11:46

J.rob here is an extract from Jez's rogatory 8/4/08

The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine's disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club. Bridget and I returned to the apartment and minutes afterward, a uniformed police officer, accompanied by a British man serving as interpreter, showed up. Later we came to know him as Robert Murat. I do not remember if he gave me his details but recently when I was cleaning a bag, I came across a card with his name and telephone number. I believe that he may have given this to me so that we could contact him in case we had any additional information to offer. 


I still think you are reading too much into this, but it would be a dull world if we all agreed on everything.
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Post by ChippyM on 30.12.14 12:35

Is it true that Gerry 'demanded' apartment keys?  Isn't that the police's job for obvious reasons?

  That may be a good way to throw police off the scent if you had already had access (getting a key, stealing one, copying one,  breaking in or getting someone else to break in ? )  to one of these apartments and concealed a body there for some time, then moved it and cleaned up, or left stinky food.   Then asking for the keys days later would make it appear you had never been in there.

   Just speculating.
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Post by plebgate on 30.12.14 16:06

snipped from j.rob's 9.28pm post :

"
How would anyone get any key to any apartment? An agreement is reached, perhaps. Someone is persuaded to pull a favor. Mark Warner find themselves implicated and manage to get the keys to an empty apartment. I am sure the owner of 5J was of interest to Portuguese police. I think there is more on who may have owned or let 5J on the thread uplink.  "




I still don't understand how Mark Warner could find themselves implicated.   If the management had knowledge of anything which might affect their reputation then why not just inform the police, why lend someone an empty apartment and possibly implicate themselves still further in more serious charges at a later date?


There would be far too many people involved imo.   No guarantees that nobody would ever sing and therefore possibly end with Warner facing possibly more serious implications than  at the start.   Far too risky imo.


SY could of course could always ascertain who had access to the key, but I don't go with the scenario mentioned in one post that someone could have broken in as there would be evidence of it surely.
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Post by Nina on 30.12.14 17:04

Not all the apartments around the OC site were used by MW, nor cleaned by their staff. Many would be just used by their owners and maybe their family and friends. Imo the left over food was from the Easter holiday.

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Post by mysterion on 30.12.14 17:27

Never knew that before now. So the private apartments could be occupied by people who were watching young children and their movements for their own perverted ends or on behalf of someone else. Presumably the PJ checked out all the owners and their tenants for anything like that.
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Post by Nina on 30.12.14 17:50

@mysterion wrote:Never knew that before now. So the private apartments could be occupied by people who were watching young children and their movements for their own perverted ends or on behalf of someone else. Presumably the PJ checked out all the owners and their tenants for anything like that.
Private apartments could be let/loaned/gifted to whoever the owner wished,or not. Not all overseas property owners have their properties to make money from. And people with perversions could be anywhere, not just privately owned apartments.

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Post by Khaleesi on 30.12.14 19:56

@j.rob wrote:5J was not in the offer of the Ocean Club, it was a private offer. It was entered the same day as the rest of the apartments in the block 5.


------


No - apartment 5A, for instance, was entered by police and searched late on Thursday 3rd May and in the early hours of Friday 4th May. And it is on record that Gerry demanded keys to other apartments in the early days so they could be searched. It would appear that some apartments could not be searched until as late as the 7th or even 10th May. This would be consistent with carrying out searches over a large resort and trying to gain entry to privately-owned apartments whose owners could not be contacted, for whatever reason. Or apartments where no-one at OC had a skeleton key to.

Apartment 5A was occupied by the McCanns, and according to their story it was a place from where Maddie went missing. It is obvious it had to be searched first. But the rest of apartments in the block 5, the 5J flat included, was searched later, at the same time. There was no bigger delay in searching the 5J than the other flats. It's written, black on white, in the GNR sniffer dogs reports.
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Post by plebgate on 30.12.14 21:18

@mysterion wrote:Never knew that before now. So the private apartments could be occupied by people who were watching young children and their movements for their own perverted ends or on behalf of someone else. Presumably the PJ checked out all the owners and their tenants for anything like that.
It is a possibility but then one would wonder why, if they were watching so intently, they decided to sneak in whilst such rigorous checking was going on?
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Post by joyce1938 on 30.12.14 23:07

If the apartments were used by perverts ,its a wnder many kids were not disappeared ,cant see that would be the case ,most folk are like most of us and would not be on holidays for that reason ? joyce1938
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 0:08

@plebgate wrote:snipped from j.rob's 9.28pm post :

"
How would anyone get any key to any apartment? An agreement is reached, perhaps. Someone is persuaded to pull a favor. Mark Warner find themselves implicated and manage to get the keys to an empty apartment. I am sure the owner of 5J was of interest to Portuguese police. I think there is more on who may have owned or let 5J on the thread uplink.  "




I still don't understand how Mark Warner could find themselves implicated.   If the management had knowledge of anything which might affect their reputation then why not just inform the police, why lend someone an empty apartment and possibly implicate themselves still further in more serious charges at a later date?


There would be far too many people involved imo.   No guarantees that nobody would ever sing and therefore possibly end with Warner facing possibly more serious implications than  at the start.   Far too risky imo.


SY could of course could always ascertain who had access to the key, but I don't go with the scenario mentioned in one post that someone could have broken in as there would be evidence of it surely.
big grin  Of course you know why.....
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 0:20

@joyce1938 wrote:If the apartments were used by perverts ,its a wnder many kids were not disappeared ,cant see that would be the case ,most folk are like most of us and would not be on holidays for that reason ? joyce1938

Yes, TM are perverts, imo. Hideous, creepy awful ghastly disgusting people.....
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Post by plebgate on 31.12.14 14:56

@j.rob wrote:
@plebgate wrote:snipped from j.rob's 9.28pm post :

"
How would anyone get any key to any apartment? An agreement is reached, perhaps. Someone is persuaded to pull a favor. Mark Warner find themselves implicated and manage to get the keys to an empty apartment. I am sure the owner of 5J was of interest to Portuguese police. I think there is more on who may have owned or let 5J on the thread uplink.  "




I still don't understand how Mark Warner could find themselves implicated.   If the management had knowledge of anything which might affect their reputation then why not just inform the police, why lend someone an empty apartment and possibly implicate themselves still further in more serious charges at a later date?


There would be far too many people involved imo.   No guarantees that nobody would ever sing and therefore possibly end with Warner facing possibly more serious implications than  at the start.   Far too risky imo.


SY could of course could always ascertain who had access to the key, but I don't go with the scenario mentioned in one post that someone could have broken in as there would be evidence of it surely.
big grin  Of course you know why.....
errm I do not - I know what some people imply.
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 17:45

I still don't understand how Mark Warner could find themselves implicated.   If the management had knowledge of anything which might affect their reputation then why not just inform the police, why lend someone an empty apartment and possibly implicate themselves still further in more serious charges at a later date?


------


Mark Warner are implicated if only because a child was allegedly abducted from one of their holiday apartments while the family were on a week long holiday with them. If this is what happened (which it clearly isn't) then this calls to question the security of the holiday resort. If what the parents claim is true (which it clearly isn't) and they were dining so close to the apartment that it was like being in your own back garden, then how come it was so easy for a child abductor to get access to the holiday resort? How could the supposed abductor get past reception? Why was he or she not challenged by anyone?  (oh - I forgot, he entered the apartment from the patio doors facing onto the road and jemmied the shutters open. Except the shutters weren't jemmied - oops!!) So even if one takes the TM story at face value, Mark Warner would still want to carefully scrutinize their security. 


You could, of course, turn the story on it's head and say that it was the McCanns and their friends who were negligent, and nothing to do with Mark Warner whatsoever. They chose, so they say, not to use the night creche. Even though they knew of its existence. They chose not to hire a babysitter. They chose not to take the children with them to the restaurant at night. They chose not to dine in their apartment where they could keep an eye on their children. They chose to go to a Mark Warner holiday resort which they knew was spread out, not really a secure campus as such, and therefore also didn't offer a baby listening service. There were so many options available to them to ensure that their children were safe in the evening. And of course there was also the option of leaving the children at home with responsible adults who actually WOULD babysit or arrange for babysitters in the evening. 


They also chose to accept an apartment that was vulnerable to burglary. Once they saw the location of the apartment, they could easily have asked to be moved to one that felt more secure. Or one that was perhaps closer to the tapas where they chose to dine or even within sight of the tapas. 


But that is not all. They even chose to MOVE the travel cots and therefore the location of the children's bedroom from the back bedroom , which faced onto the tapas and pool area and not a road outside the resort, and was therefore, arguably, slightly more secure and easy for them to keep an eye on, to the front bedroom which was more hidden in view from the O.C. As well as having patio doors that opened up onto a road which was outside the resort. Which would, for course, have made it far easier for an 'abductor' to jemmy the shutters of the children's bedroom, access the apartment and steal a child.


What a number of terrible decisions you made, Kate and Gerry! You could argue that one or two of these decisions could be put down to bad luck or a coincidence, but three or more is starting to look less like bad luck or a coincidence and more like - well, a carefully orchestrated plan, actually.


As Kate writes in her book: "...the ground-floor location, access to roads front and side, secluded entrance and partial tree cover made our apartment a prime target for burglars and other criminals. Never once did this occur to us when we arrived. As far as we were concerned, we were in a safe, family-friendly-orientated resort."


This is Kate at her best, or should I say worst. Disingenuous at the very least.....the very least. Most probably an outright lie.


All of this makes it all the more extraordinary that TM appear to have well and truly silenced everyone at Mark Warner. And even holiday-makers who were there that week.


So, as far as I am concerned that either means that either: 
Mark Warner were in some way complicit in the hoax for whatever reason. 
Or: they felt a sense of responsibility and liability that was far greater than would be the case if TM's story was true. Which, as outlined above, would put the onus of responsibility for what happened squarely on TM's shoulders.
Or a combination of the two.


This could, possibly, lend some credence to the theory that a nanny or several nannies were babysitting on Sunday night, for instance. Or a nanny had promised to look in on the children, perhaps?


Hmmm.....I wonder if TM managed to 'pin the blame' for what happened to Madeleine onto someone else or several other people. That would be entirely consistent with the way they operate.....and I don't just mean the random, mystery pimple bogey tractor man. I mean they managed to manipulate the situation to make it appear that there were other people at Mark Warner, perhaps, who felt a level of responsibility for what happened. (The nanny who had a nervous break-down?)


Theorizing,, as always. 
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Post by plebgate on 31.12.14 17:54

The hotel reception staff cannot monitor eryone who visits.  Have you never been at hotel reception with the clerk booking in people, checking them out, answering the phones and people walking past going about their business.    I have, plenty of times.   One would expect the doors to be locked if one was going out with the children let alone if the children were being left alone.

I still cannot see, even if Maddie was abducted from the room, how MW's would feel responsible and feel so responsible that they would "do a favour" by giving out the keys to a privately owned apartment.   No, not doing it for me at all.

My last post on it now as I have nothing further to add to the debate. smilie
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Post by tungsten tel on 31.12.14 18:06

Could Robert Murat have had access to the keys of 5J (?) . Often wondered what the rush was for him to get back to Portugal .
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 18:13

@Rufus T wrote:J.rob here is an extract from Jez's rogatory 8/4/08

The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine's disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club. Bridget and I returned to the apartment and minutes afterward, a uniformed police officer, accompanied by a British man serving as interpreter, showed up. Later we came to know him as Robert Murat. I do not remember if he gave me his details but recently when I was cleaning a bag, I came across a card with his name and telephone number. I believe that he may have given this to me so that we could contact him in case we had any additional information to offer. 


I still think you are reading too much into this, but it would be a dull world if we all agreed on everything.

Oh dear, poor old Jez really does get his knickers in a twist over all this, doesn't he? Because it is on record that Jez became aware of Madeleine's disappearance when Matt Oldfield, in the company of O.C resort manager, woke up ( big grin big grin yeah, right!) Jez and Bridget O'Donnell, his partner, and tell them that Gerry saw Jez outside the apartment after Gerry's 9pm check and they want to know if he saw anything as Madeleine has 'been abducted'. To which Jez replies: 'you're joking!'

So how come Jez in the account above claims that it was 'the next morning' when both he and Bridget become aware of Madeleine's disappearance? Surely - given that he and Bridget were supposedly woken at 1am on Friday morning and told about Madeleine's abduction - he should have said something along the lines of: 'we hardly slept that night. It was such a shock. I helped join in the searches for Madeleine through the night. Breakfast was the last thing on our minds. And of course it was unthinkable to use the clubs for the children when we knew there was a child abductor on the lose.'

Jez' account is entirely unbelievable. It is so obviously fabricated, imo. False though and through.
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 18:16

@ChippyM wrote:
Is it true that Gerry 'demanded' apartment keys?  Isn't that the police's job for obvious reasons?

  That may be a good way to throw police off the scent if you had already had access (getting a key, stealing one, copying one,  breaking in or getting someone else to break in ? )  to one of these apartments and concealed a body there for some time, then moved it and cleaned up, or left stinky food.   Then asking for the keys days later would make it appear you had never been in there.

   Just speculating.

I think if you look in the PJ files you will find that TM were very much involved in searching empty apartments. But, yes, good point. This would be consistent with TM's deception tactics.
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 18:26

@plebgate wrote:The hotel reception staff cannot monitor eryone who visits.  Have you never been at hotel reception with the clerk booking in people, checking them out, answering the phones and people walking past going about their business.    I have, plenty of times.   One would expect the doors to be locked if one was going out with the children let alone if the children were being left alone.

I still cannot see, even if Maddie was abducted from the room, how MW's would feel responsible and feel so responsible that they would "do a favour" by giving out the keys to a privately owned apartment.   No, not doing it for me at all.

My last post on it now as I have nothing further to add to the debate. smilie

Not really. The Mark Warner baby-listening service comprised of parents leaving their children asleep in their bedrooms with unlocked doors and a nanny patrolling the corridors and listening for sounds of disturbance or crying. If the nanny heard crying or noise, she would enter the apartment and comfort the baby/child. If the child was inconsolable, the nanny would pick up the baby or child and take him or her down to the dining room. I know this is what happens/happened because it happened on a Mark Warner holiday I went on many years ago with young children. Now I think back on it, it would have been a potential child abductor's dream. The nanny or nannies cannot possibly be outside every door as there were quite a few floors. There would have been nothing stopping an abductor getting into the hotel - as you say reception do not generally challenge people - and waltzing off with any number of children. Out through a balcony, say, or one of the back doors to the hotel. Some children sleep very heavily and do not wake up even if carried out of bed.

How come MW employees have so clearly been Carter Rucked to high heaven?
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Post by Liz Eagles on 31.12.14 18:34

@tungsten tel wrote:Could Robert Murat have had access to the keys of 5J (?) . Often wondered what the rush was for him to get back to Portugal .
I don't know about that but Murat's mother Jennie was out in her car doing a little campaign all of her own about people who might not wish to speak to the police directly who could give her messages which she could pass on.

I don't know how things work in Portugal. I lived in Crete for a few years. You needed a licence to rent out your property for holiday let. That licence wasn't cheap to obtain (it was difficult and expensive to obtain) and came with tax obligations.

Some people just ignored all of that and did it anyway.

The thing about the apartments in PDL that bothers me is that it's an apartment - a 'lock up and go'. Whether you rent out your apartment legally/illegally would make no difference. You'd need a cleaner to service an apartment for the arrival of guests - it doesn't matter if the guests are friends/family/someone in your office at home.

Someone has a key to your apartment to service it. Someone has a key to your apartment to go and check on things. Someone has a key.
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Post by j.rob on 31.12.14 19:44

@Khaleesi wrote:
@j.rob wrote:5J was not in the offer of the Ocean Club, it was a private offer. It was entered the same day as the rest of the apartments in the block 5.


------


No - apartment 5A, for instance, was entered by police and searched late on Thursday 3rd May and in the early hours of Friday 4th May. And it is on record that Gerry demanded keys to other apartments in the early days so they could be searched. It would appear that some apartments could not be searched until as late as the 7th or even 10th May. This would be consistent with carrying out searches over a large resort and trying to gain entry to privately-owned apartments whose owners could not be contacted, for whatever reason. Or apartments where no-one at OC had a skeleton key to.

Apartment 5A was occupied by the McCanns, and according to their story it was a place from where Maddie went missing. It is obvious it had to be searched first. But the rest of apartments in the block 5, the 5J flat included, was searched later, at the same time. There was no bigger delay in searching the 5J than the other flats. It's written, black on white, in the GNR sniffer dogs reports.

Logically, the police would have searched, or at least visited, apartments that were occupied that week before visiting or searching those that were not. As apartments that were occupied can be accessed easily. And the people occupying them are vital eye-witnesses as well, of course, as being potential suspects.

Unoccupied apartments, especially those to which Ocean Club did not have keys, would take longer to visit and search. 

Indeed, if you look at the relevant pages in the PJ files, you can see that even by 10th May, the Portuguese police are only able to search apartments to which the resort representative has keys. Which suggests there were still apartments within blocks 4 and 5 that had not been searched by 10th May.
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Post by Khaleesi on 31.12.14 22:49

@j.rob wrote:

Logically, the police would have searched, or at least visited, apartments that were occupied that week before visiting or searching those that were not. As apartments that were occupied can be accessed easily. And the people occupying them are vital eye-witnesses as well, of course, as being potential suspects.

We are talking here about searching the flats by GNR sniffer dogs. Taking the statements is an entirely different job, belonging to the different set of the policemen.

Unoccupied apartments, especially those to which Ocean Club did not have keys, would take longer to visit and search. 

Indeed, if you look at the relevant pages in the PJ files, you can see that even by 10th May, the Portuguese police are only able to search apartments to which the resort representative has keys. Which suggests there were still apartments within blocks 4 and 5 that had not been searched by 10th May.

On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches.

Colour by me. Read it carefully, please. The report states ALL of the apartments were open and searched that one day. All of them, one by one. These used by the OC were opened by the representative from the resort, for the other ones they had to have the keys from other sources. But it is here, clearly written: all of the apartments in the block 4 and 5 were searched on 10th May.
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