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Analyzing position of sun in last photo

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by Joss on 16.11.14 17:26

When people concerning a missing child case are lying and being deceptive it can only mean one thing, that they are hiding the Truth. And i don't think its a stretch to believe that they would falsify photos or any other type of evidence either. That is in fact what guilty people do to cover themselves from being implicated in said crime.
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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by HiDeHo on 16.11.14 17:38

TheTruthWillOut wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
TheTruthWillOut wrote:Using a online Exif/Metadata reader the date/time listed is February 19th 2007 22:13:43 Peter.

Don't know how accurate that would be. Would really need the original image and a expert to confirm.
Impressive.   Does it give the camera ?

No it doesn't Peter. The date is listed under XMP Toolkit which is Adobe software and after looking into it a bit more is probably just a date for that version of the XMP Toolkit.

What is needed is the original full resolution image like the last photo to get the full Exif data.
Looks like it may have been taken at Christmas...

Maybe there is another one that can be checked?

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by juliet on 16.11.14 17:46

IMO there is no way GM sat at the pool with his two little girls - whether Sunday, Thursday or any other day. One very obvious reason is the fact that the Maddie of the pool and the Maddie of the tennis pic are simply not the same child in the same week. I agree with jrob that for some reason Maddie was not photographed...except possibly that awful tennis pic.
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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by j.rob on 16.11.14 18:04

bobbin wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Nina wrote:
Tony, bougainvillea is a strange old plant.

But very beautiful when in bloom

I am surrounded by it and at the moment it is in full bloom as we have had drought conditions for months,

You are fortunate, then



though for two days now the first rains, so the bougainvillea will lose its splendid colour and just go green until the next drought when the coloured bracts appear again. It doesn't really matter which way it is facing, though it does need a certain number of sunshine hours per day to show the magnificent display. So, heat, sun for a good portion of the day, and drought, then the bracts will start to appear.  Was it like that prior to that week re the weather?

For a general view, I looked at the temperature records for a weather station at Faro

Apr
18 Max 21 (70)
19 Max 22 (72)
20 Max 19 (66)
21 Max 21 (70)
22 Max 22 (72)
23 Max 23 (73)
24 Max 24 (75)
25 Max 23 (73)
26 Max 22 (72)
27 Max 20 (68)
__________
28 Max 22 (72)
29 Max 22 (72)
30 Max 20 (68)
May
1 Max 18 (64)
2 Max 19 (66)
3 Max 20 (68)

Looking at the average temperatures for the time of year:

From 18-25 April most days were above or well above the average

From 26-29 April they were about average

From 30 April to 3 May they were below average.

It only rained on two days:

20th April 0.5mm (one fiftieth of an inch, or 0.02 inches)
25th April 3.0mm (one eighth of an inch, or 0.12 inches)


The trouble with the HelenMeg/chirpyinsect photos is that we have no way of knowing when they were taken. As it is said that they were taken during the week the McCanns were there, I am more than a tad surprised that she never mentioned that - and shared these photos - when she was with us.

All I was saying is that IF the two photos were taken that week, and IF they are of the WEST wall as I suspect, the bougainvilleas on the Last Photo would be likely to be more in bloom than the ones on the HelenMeg photos

 
As I posted many times, and I'm sure you'll remember Tony, on a last photo/bougainvillea thread, botanical details which showed that bougainvillea only opens its bracts after several days of continual dry weather/drought and temperatures of at least 25 degrees concurrently.

Nina lives in bougainvillea territory, loves her flowers and garden, and knows full well what conditions are needed to make them come into full vibrant colour.

The 'playground' photo of Maddie, standing with a palm tree behind her, whilst she is wearing her pink trousers and long-sleeved jacket, shows the bougainvillea behind her to be at a very similar stage of development indeed to the photos posted above.

You don't need the dates, although proof would be helpful, since the temperature details you have kindly searched out and posted, countermand the botanical requirements for bougainvillea to burst its bracts open.

As Nina says, and as the botanical details which you will find anywhere on the net re bougainvillea, states that it needs dry and sunshine, and since the sun will have spent much of the day lighting and warming a westerly wall, acting like a sun-trap for much of the day, even retaining heat into the evening, the cold and or wet days preceding the McCann week and during the McC week will have prevented the bougainvillea from coming into open bract flower.


IF the bougainvillea at Ocean Club was not in bloom by Thursday 3rd May as weather conditions had not yet been favorable, then that would suggest that the bougainvillea was not in bloom earlier in the week, either. As there simply had not been enough long hot days. 

There must be many holiday makers that week at Ocean Club who had taken photos around the resort gardens and pool area. Maybe even video-footage of the gardens. Holiday-makers would certainly have wanted to photograph the bougainvillea if it had been as splendid as it appeared in the alleged 'final photo'. So it shouldn't be that difficult to get 'evidence'. Staff at the club such as gardeners and grounds-men (and maybe other staff too) would also know quite accurately when the bougainvillea blooms each year at the club.

But just suppose that the bougainvillea had NOT been in bloom at the time of the alleged final photo on Thursday 3rd May or indeed at ANY time during that fateful week that the McCanns were holidaying at the Ocean Club?

Then that would mean that the photo had been taken at Ocean Club AFTER 3rd May 2007. During the following few weeks perhaps (would be interesting to see the temperature charts for the area so as to work out when the bougainvillea at the Ocean Club  was likely to have bloomed given the climatic conditions it needs). Or, possibly, in a previous year.

In which case, not only was the timing of the photo faked. But it was also photo-shopped (with at least Madeleine being photo-shopped in).

Gazooks, but surely they couldn't make such a big blunder.......

Or could they??

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by Nina on 16.11.14 18:16

j.rob wrote:
bobbin wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Nina wrote:
Tony, bougainvillea is a strange old plant.

But very beautiful when in bloom

I am surrounded by it and at the moment it is in full bloom as we have had drought conditions for months,

You are fortunate, then



though for two days now the first rains, so the bougainvillea will lose its splendid colour and just go green until the next drought when the coloured bracts appear again. It doesn't really matter which way it is facing, though it does need a certain number of sunshine hours per day to show the magnificent display. So, heat, sun for a good portion of the day, and drought, then the bracts will start to appear.  Was it like that prior to that week re the weather?

For a general view, I looked at the temperature records for a weather station at Faro

Apr
18 Max 21 (70)
19 Max 22 (72)
20 Max 19 (66)
21 Max 21 (70)
22 Max 22 (72)
23 Max 23 (73)
24 Max 24 (75)
25 Max 23 (73)
26 Max 22 (72)
27 Max 20 (68)
__________
28 Max 22 (72)
29 Max 22 (72)
30 Max 20 (68)
May
1 Max 18 (64)
2 Max 19 (66)
3 Max 20 (68)

Looking at the average temperatures for the time of year:

From 18-25 April most days were above or well above the average

From 26-29 April they were about average

From 30 April to 3 May they were below average.

It only rained on two days:

20th April 0.5mm (one fiftieth of an inch, or 0.02 inches)
25th April 3.0mm (one eighth of an inch, or 0.12 inches)


The trouble with the HelenMeg/chirpyinsect photos is that we have no way of knowing when they were taken. As it is said that they were taken during the week the McCanns were there, I am more than a tad surprised that she never mentioned that - and shared these photos - when she was with us.

All I was saying is that IF the two photos were taken that week, and IF they are of the WEST wall as I suspect, the bougainvilleas on the Last Photo would be likely to be more in bloom than the ones on the HelenMeg photos

 
As I posted many times, and I'm sure you'll remember Tony, on a last photo/bougainvillea thread, botanical details which showed that bougainvillea only opens its bracts after several days of continual dry weather/drought and temperatures of at least 25 degrees concurrently.

Nina lives in bougainvillea territory, loves her flowers and garden, and knows full well what conditions are needed to make them come into full vibrant colour.

The 'playground' photo of Maddie, standing with a palm tree behind her, whilst she is wearing her pink trousers and long-sleeved jacket, shows the bougainvillea behind her to be at a very similar stage of development indeed to the photos posted above.

You don't need the dates, although proof would be helpful, since the temperature details you have kindly searched out and posted, countermand the botanical requirements for bougainvillea to burst its bracts open.

As Nina says, and as the botanical details which you will find anywhere on the net re bougainvillea, states that it needs dry and sunshine, and since the sun will have spent much of the day lighting and warming a westerly wall, acting like a sun-trap for much of the day, even retaining heat into the evening, the cold and or wet days preceding the McCann week and during the McC week will have prevented the bougainvillea from coming into open bract flower.


IF the bougainvillea at Ocean Club was not in bloom by Thursday 3rd May as weather conditions had not yet been favorable, then that would suggest that the bougainvillea was not in bloom earlier in the week, either. As there simply had not been enough long hot days. 

There must be many holiday makers that week at Ocean Club who had taken photos around the resort gardens and pool area. Maybe even video-footage of the gardens. Holiday-makers would certainly have wanted to photograph the bougainvillea if it had been as splendid as it appeared in the alleged 'final photo'. So it shouldn't be that difficult to get 'evidence'. Staff at the club such as gardeners and grounds-men (and maybe other staff too) would also know quite accurately when the bougainvillea blooms each year at the club.

But just suppose that the bougainvillea had NOT been in bloom at the time of the alleged final photo on Thursday 3rd May or indeed at ANY time during that fateful week that the McCanns were holidaying at the Ocean Club?

Then that would mean that the photo had been taken at Ocean Club AFTER 3rd May 2007. During the following few weeks perhaps (would be interesting to see the temperature charts for the area so as to work out when the bougainvillea at the Ocean Club  was likely to have bloomed given the climatic conditions it needs). Or, possibly, in a previous year.

In which case, not only was the timing of the photo faked. But it was also photo-shopped (with at least Madeleine being photo-shopped in).

Gazooks, but surely they couldn't make such a big blunder.......

Or could they??
We might not be able to get hold of the photographs of other holiday makers but what we have at our disposal are all the news shots of police around the Ocean club and all the journalists, there from the 4th May, surely there will be some shots of this plant. I will accept that the purple kind will be in flower, but not any other colour, the cultivated plant, unless the weather conditions had been conducive.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by canada12 on 16.11.14 18:41

It would seem that the Tapas friends' photo collection might have exactly what we're looking for in terms of the shrubbery... however, alas, they're in black and white and not good copies...
Take a look at what's here:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm#bw


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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by rustyjames on 16.11.14 19:46

j.rob wrote:
Staff at the club such as gardeners and grounds-men (and maybe other staff too) would also know quite accurately when the bougainvillea blooms each year at the club.

Whilst he didn't work on the area around the pool, maybe they need to ask the gardener they are allegedly questioning?

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by Doug D on 16.11.14 20:02

Not dated. Don't know how long they kept the tape up.

    

http://peaceandjustice.freeforums.net/thread/81/madeleine-mccann-cops-first-arrests

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by rustyjames on 16.11.14 20:10

HiDeHo wrote:

I will add some of the pics here...One interesting one is the view of the sun from the pool (I believe where the depth sign was) at 1.30pm.  I was taken around February (before time change) I can access the exact date if that would be helpful.





Thanks HiDeHo - some useful pictures, especially this one because it's made me realise there was a tree behind the photographer and explains to me the dark part on the right hand endg of the sunglasses lens.  The exif data says Feb 9th 2012, 2:18pm by the way.

You don't have any others like this that capture the view from the subjects perspective by any chance?

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by rustyjames on 16.11.14 20:22

Doug D wrote:Not dated. Don't know how long they kept the tape up.

    

http://peaceandjustice.freeforums.net/thread/81/madeleine-mccann-cops-first-arrests

This one is taken from here - AFP Website .  You'll have to excuse my ignorance of flora - is it bougainvillea?  The photo is dated 9th May 2007.


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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by rustyjames on 16.11.14 20:40

I don't recall ever studying this PA picture from the 5th May (looks to be something red to the left of the big tree) - source here.


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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by Nina on 16.11.14 20:45

rustyjames wrote:
Doug D wrote:Not dated. Don't know how long they kept the tape up.

    

http://peaceandjustice.freeforums.net/thread/81/madeleine-mccann-cops-first-arrests

This one is taken from here - AFP Website .  You'll have to excuse my ignorance of flora - is it bougainvillea?  The photo is dated 9th May 2007.

Yes that is bougainvillea, but the purple variety, not the cultivated one. This can actually grow wild . We are looking for white, red, orange, pink, even yellow. Any colour but the purple as that seems to flower all year.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by Nina on 16.11.14 20:48

Just to the left of this picture is another plant and I would wager a cultivated bougainvillea, without flower. Are there any more photographs of this area but later on in the season to compare just the very green presentation as in this photograph?

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by j.rob on 16.11.14 21:07

rustyjames wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Staff at the club such as gardeners and grounds-men (and maybe other staff too) would also know quite accurately when the bougainvillea blooms each year at the club.

Whilst he didn't work on the area around the pool, maybe they need to ask the gardener they are allegedly questioning?

But there must have been gardeners, grounds-men and pool men (or women, of course!) who DID work in the area of the pool? For instance, there would have been a person whose job it was to clean the pools of leaves and other debris. That is an important job in a holiday resort as if the pool is full of leaves or flowers or other bits and bobs (bearing in mind it had been windy that week and had rained) then it looks messy and unkempt. Even if the pool/s are too cold to swim in comfortably, it is still important to have the water looking clean. Usually, in hotel complexes, there will be a 'pool person' cleaning out the pool and the filters every single day. And there are often also checks on the water quality - a health and safety thing?

If the bougainvillea had been flowering in the manner suggested by 'the final photo' then the quite gusty wind on Thursday could quite likely could have caused the flowers to be strewn around the area of the toddler pool. It would have been someone or several people's jobs to clean not just the swimming and toddler pools but also the areas around the pool.  Again, if the area around the pool/s is covered in leaves or other debris, then it all looks very unkempt and people complain and/or do not want to go back. As it indicates slovenliness on the part of the hotel maintenance. 

Given that the alleged 'final photo' was only released three weeks after Madeleine 'was abducted', then the Portuguese police in the early days/weeks would not have specifically been focusing on whether or not the 'final photo' was genuine. So they would not have specifically been focusing on whether the bougainvillea was in flower, for instance, at lunch-time on Thursday 3rd May.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by j.rob on 16.11.14 21:12

Joss wrote:When people concerning a missing child case are lying and being deceptive it can only mean one thing, that they are hiding the Truth. And i don't think its a stretch to believe that they would falsify photos or any other type of evidence either. That is in fact what guilty people do to cover themselves from being implicated in said crime.

Indeed. It would seem that the Portuguese police did not believe the McCanns or their friends from the word go. But why would they have done? The story never added up, imo.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by rustyjames on 16.11.14 21:15

j.rob wrote:
Given that the alleged 'final photo' was only released three weeks after Madeleine 'was abducted', then the Portuguese police in the early days/weeks would not have specifically been focusing on whether or not the 'final photo' was genuine. So they would not have specifically been focusing on whether the bougainvillea was in flower, for instance, at lunch-time on Thursday 3rd May.

And then we're back to how useful all the guests photos taken that week would be.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by j.rob on 16.11.14 21:29

rustyjames wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Given that the alleged 'final photo' was only released three weeks after Madeleine 'was abducted', then the Portuguese police in the early days/weeks would not have specifically been focusing on whether or not the 'final photo' was genuine. So they would not have specifically been focusing on whether the bougainvillea was in flower, for instance, at lunch-time on Thursday 3rd May.

And then we're back to how useful all the guests photos taken that week would be.

Oh, very!! That's why TM were asking all the holiday makers to send their photos to TM.

How and why that hideous group have got away with this ridiculous HOAX for so long is nothing short of incredible. Playing on the general public's naivety, I suppose, that 'professionals' and people in positions of trust/authority will have honorable intentions.  

When that is most definitely not the case, imo.

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by HiDeHo on 16.11.14 23:49

rustyjames wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:

I will add some of the pics here...One interesting one is the view of the sun from the pool (I believe where the depth sign was) at 1.30pm.  I was taken around February (before time change) I can access the exact date if that would be helpful.





Thanks HiDeHo - some useful pictures, especially this one because it's made me realise there was a tree behind the photographer and explains to me the dark part on the right hand endg of the sunglasses lens.  The exif data says Feb 9th 2012, 2:18pm by the way.

You don't have any others like this that capture the view from the subjects perspective by any chance?


Well I was told 1.30pm so another example of an hour out winkwink


I was sent several pics and as the shadows of that 'time' are important, i am adding them all as there may be something of value that is not apparent to me. With the exif data available it would hold some 'proof'.












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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by HiDeHo on 17.11.14 0:21














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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by HiDeHo on 17.11.14 0:40










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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by ultimaThule on 17.11.14 5:00

j.rob wrote:
rustyjames wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Given that the alleged 'final photo' was only released three weeks after Madeleine 'was abducted', then the Portuguese police in the early days/weeks would not have specifically been focusing on whether or not the 'final photo' was genuine. So they would not have specifically been focusing on whether the bougainvillea was in flower, for instance, at lunch-time on Thursday 3rd May.

And then we're back to how useful all the guests photos taken that week would be.

Oh, very!! That's why TM were asking all the holiday makers to send their photos to TM.

How and why that hideous group have got away with this ridiculous HOAX for so long is nothing short of incredible. Playing on the general public's naivety, I suppose, that 'professionals' and people in positions of trust/authority will have honorable intentions.  

When that is most definitely not the case, imo.

It shouldn't be forgotten that the McCanns abused the provisions within Wardship in an attempt to acquire all/any information their fellow holidaymakers had sent to Leicestershire Police in response to a request made by the PJ, j.rob, but, to their chagrin, they didn't succeed.
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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by canada12 on 17.11.14 6:21

Thanks for all those very informative photos, HiDeHo... I tried putting them through a program that detects EXIF info but it wasn't able to locate time of day or date info about any of them. Perhaps someone else will have more luck. :-)

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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by NickE on 17.11.14 7:58

The police interviewed the gardener, maybe they asked him about the flowers?
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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by aiyoyo on 17.11.14 8:11

NickE wrote:The police interviewed the gardener, maybe they asked him about the flowers?
pray2



Maybe they asked him if he'd seen a man carrying a blue bag?
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Re: Analyzing position of sun in last photo

Post by BlueBag on 17.11.14 8:28

Bougainvillea specifically in the algarve.

http://www.gardeninginportugal.com/plant-portraits/bouganvillea/

"Bougainvillea is a riot of colour for nine or ten months of the year. This is one of the classic Mediterranean plants – adorning garden and house walls with show stopping colour effects. "


"Bougainvillea only flower well on new growth so pruning is essential at some point. Here on the Algarve hard pruning can be undertaken at the end of January or during February"



So I guess Jan/Feb/March/ can be ruled as the months when it's not a "riot of colour".
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