Re: Was Wojcek Krokowski - 'Sagres man with a camera' - the template for both 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'?

by j.rob 18.11.14 14:48

NickE wrote:Sorry Tony if this have been mention Before in this thread.
The Polish couple's rental car was a Grey,small Renault Clio

Maria De Silva.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm
*snip*
. Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment
..

I too remembered that another eye-witness mentioned a small grey car but could not find the link. to Maria de Silva's rogatory so well done. I think there is also another eye-witness who was driving along the road outside the apartment that evening and a small grey car (Renault Clio? not sure if they mention the make) was heading towards her car at speed, to the extent that she had to swerve to avoid it? Maybe someone else remembers who said this?

Then we have Jez Wilkins who stated that he thinks he saw Jane Tanner outside the McCann's apartment at around 8.3pm (in a purple top?) And in one of his police statements at least he mentions seeing a couple, I think, which includes the blonde 'rasta-man' (and a woman in a purple top?) walking towards OC reception?

by **Tony Bennett** 18.11.14 19:27

j.rob

According to Kate in her book the apartment was cleaned on Monday and Wednesday. And on Tuesday maintenance men came to look at the washing machine which Kate could not operate.

REPLY: They arrived on Saturday late afternoon. Presumably by Tuesday morning, or even before, Dr Kate McCann wanted to wash some things. That does seem strange.

And also to look at the window shutter mechanism in their bedroom which Gerry had apparently managed to break.
I would imagine that cleaning, washing of clothes and other items from the apartment and also the bedroom window shutters were all sensitive subject areas for the McCanns that week.

And I find the use of the word 'essentials' to describe what Kate and Jane were buying from Baptista on Monday evening of interest. Perhaps they were very essential products indeed…Bearing in mind that Kate writes that Gerry went to Baptista the day before - on Sunday morning - 'to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning.' Would have been interesting to see the till receipts. There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

REPLY: Given that they were I think on ‘half board’ that week, it is difficult to know what ‘essentials’ they required, nor is there a convincing reason why they suddenly decided it was too far to go to the Millennium for breakfast.

Would have been interesting to see the till receipts.
There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

NickE:

Before in this thread, the Polish couple's rental car was a grey, small Renault Clio.

[see Maria De Silva statement:]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm

Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58? She remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6…

After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns…she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment

REPLY: It is said that Krokowski hired his car from 28 April to 5 May, presumably using it early on 5 May to return to Faro airport from his holiday pad at the Sol e Mar apartments in Burgau. On the face of it, it seems most unlikely that that same car would be stationed right outside the McCanns’ apartment that night.

I too remembered that another eye-witness mentioned a small grey car… also another eye-witness who was driving along the road outside the apartment that evening and a small grey car (Renault Clio? - not sure if they mention the make) was heading towards her car at speed, to the extent that she had to swerve to avoid it? Maybe someone else remembers who said this?

REPLY: I am not aware of these statements

Then we have Jez Wilkins who stated that he thinks he saw Jane Tanner outside the McCann's apartment at around 8.03pm (in a purple top?)

REPLY: IMO Jez Wilkins’ claim about taking out a young baby late at night to get the baby to sleep and also calling in at the toilet to relieve himself didn’t have the ‘ring of truth’ about it

And in one of his police statements at least he mentions seeing a couple, I think, which includes the blonde 'rasta-man' (and a woman in a purple top?) walking towards OC reception?

REPLY: Not connected to the Krokowskis I think

j.rob

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday)

My Brain hurts

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday. Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?

REPLY: Not sure what the procedure was at Mark Warners/Ocean Club

Were the curtains washed as well on the Monday?

REPLY: See above

Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?

REPLY: See above

by Monty Heck 18.11.14 20:15

j.rob wrote:
MyBrainHurts wrote:
j.rob wrote:Thank you Tony. All very interesting.

-----------

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday.)
.

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday.
Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?
Then the McCann's went to the supermarket to stock up on essentials. I wonder if some of those essentials were cleaning products? Maybe it took several days to 'forensically cleanse the apt of Madeleine's DNA before they raised the fake alarm.
People here think Madeleine met her demise before Monday so maybe the cleaning of the apt on Monday is significant.
Were the curtains washed aswell on the Monday?
Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?
IMO

According to Kate in her book the apartment was cleaned on Monday and Wednesday. And on Tuesday maintenance men came to look at the washing machine which Kate could not operate. And also to look at the window shutter mechanism in their bedroom which Gerry had apparently managed to break.

I would imagine that cleaning, washing of clothes and other items from the apartment and also the bedroom window shutters were all sensitive subject areas for the McCanns that week.

And I find the use of the word 'essentials' to describe what Kate and Jane were buying from Baptist on Monday evening of interest. Perhaps they were very essential products indeed. As you say - cleaning products perhaps.

Bearing in mind that Kate writes that Gerry went to Baptista the day before - on Sunday morning - 'to get in a few bits and piecesfor lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning.'

So, given that Gerry only the day before had already done a supermarket shop for food for breakfast and lunch, how 'essential' were these 'essentials' that the very next day Kate had to visit the supermarket again? Would have been interesting to see the till receipts.

Given that, imo, the McCanns will do absolutely anything to avoid having to pay for things out of their own pockets, I cannot believe that they would forgo the ample breakfast (apart from on Sunday apparently) each morning for all FIVE of them unless there was a very pressing reason indeed why they could not go. In my view neither Kate or Gerry liked spending money on their children. There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

Re the need for the supermarket evening foray, Baptista doesn't tend to open very late in the evenings so it would be interesting to know whether a more exact timeframe has been given for this? Also, unlike other supermarkets in the village, Baptista always seemed to be open each day, including Sundays and public holidays, although it may close earlier on those days.

Foregoing five pre-paid breakfasts per day in favour of paying (twice over) for food, with the added inconvenience of shopping, preparation and clearing up afterwards for a family of five, once more per day than was actually necessary does appear a rather strange holiday choice. Even without a buggy, for fit and athletic parents, carrying a small tot apiece on a pleasant 10 minute walk would be no hardship. Also odd is that M, an active, lively child capable of striding out independently still had to be taken to kids club not far from the Millennium in any case, so it seems like a lot of extra work and to-ing and fro-ing for little gain.

by j.rob 19.11.14 12:55

Foregoing five pre-paid breakfasts per day in favour of paying (twice over) for food, with the added inconvenience of shopping, preparation and clearing up afterwards for a family of five, once more per day than was actually necessary does appear a rather strange holiday choice. Even without a buggy, for fit and athletic parents, carrying a small tot apiece on a pleasant 10 minute walk would be no hardship. Also odd is that M, an active, lively child capable of striding out independently still had to be taken to kids club not far from the Millennium in any case, so it seems like a lot of extra work and to-ing and fro-ing for little gain.

-----------

Agreed. It makes no sense at all. This was supposed to be 'a holiday' (even if Gerry did say on the airport bus that he was not there to enjoy himself! What was he there for, I wonder?)

Children of that age are up early and are raring to go by 7.30am or 8am. The house very quickly becomes incredibly chaotic if the children are not up and out somewhere in the morning. In fact, everything and everyone can get quite 'stir-crazy'. My recollection of children of two and a bit and nearly four is that they are on the go 12 hours a day. It's non-stop activity from what I can remember. So you would think they would all be dying to get to the Millennium for breakfast and allow the children to create havoc there rather than going stir-crazy in a cramped apartment.

But of course there was a whole other agenda going on that week. Or quite a few different agendas, imo. One of which I still suspect was a pre-planned 'abduction hoax' which became bodged.

But that still does not account for all those high profile guests and the very high level of protection offered to Team McCann from the very beginning. Or maybe it does partly?

by violet6000 20.11.14 3:10

This is a very interesting topic and one that I don't know a great deal about. However, to me the man's description of a suspicious man taking photographs of his daughter sounds legit. I have been in a similar situation--it was just impossible to know for sure if the man was truly doing what I thought he was doing. We were at a very nice resort at the time. I removed my child from the situation rather than report anything just b/c it is hard to know what people are photographing if you don't look at their film/shots.

I think the link of this suspicious man to the Burgau apt. strengthens the probability that it really happened. The question is then, why did it happen & what does it have to do with MBM?

Is it possible that the suspicious couple were looking for a MBM lookalike on Murat's instruction? I am not sure how it would all fit together, but it seems to fit the timeline with a death occurring early in the week. I wonder if either a lookalike was being sought to somehow be used as a sub for MBM in the creche before they decided to use the other M, if they did that--not sure how that would all work out--or even as a sub for a darker purpose--this is speculation, of course, and very unpleasant speculation, but I think I wrote on my other post about some odd similarities with the Jon Benet-R case--I find it hard to understand how educated, intelligent?, etc folks could get involved in extreme dark occult stuff, but ???

Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I would share.

All my opinion only and no offense or harm intended to anyone.

by **Tony Bennett** 20.11.14 9:12

violet6000 wrote:This is a very interesting topic and one that I don't know a great deal about. However, to me the man's description of a suspicious man taking photographs of his daughter sounds legit. I have been in a similar situation - it was just impossible to know for sure if the man was truly doing what I thought he was doing. We were at a very nice resort at the time. I removed my child from the situation rather than report anything just b/c it is hard to know what people are photographing if you don't look at their film/shots.

REPLY: But as you're new to the topic, you may have missed these points:

* Lourenco saw the man taking photographs not only of his children but another family's children
* He says discusssed this with the other couple, who had boys aged 9 & 5
* He says he eyeballed Krokowski 'aggressively until he departed
* AFTER that, two hours later, there was - he says - ANOTHER incident when Krokowski attempted to snatch his daughter
* He managed to follow the man and get his car registration number, writing it down on a 'piece of paper'
* He says he photographed Krokowski on his mobile 'phone but the picture didn't come out because 'his finger was on the lens'
* He says he threw away the car registration number soon after taking it, but can't remember if 'I threw it in a rubbish bin or flung it on the floor'
* He didn't report any of this until the morning of 5 May when Krokowski and his partner were already on the plane to Berlin
* He only reported it because on 4 May his wife said 'That might be the bloke that abducted Madeleine'.

For these and other reasons I suggest we need to consider the possibility that these 'sightings' were a total fabrication

I think the link of this suspicious man to the Burgau apt. strengthens the probability that it really happened.

REPLY: Why?

The question is then, why did it happen & what does it have to do with MBM?

Is it possible that the suspicious couple were looking for a MBM lookalike on Murat's instruction?

REPLY: No because I think Lourenco fabircated the whole thing

I am not sure how it would all fit together, but it seems to fit the timeline with a death occurring early in the week. I wonder if either a lookalike was being sought to somehow be used as a sub for MBM in the creche before they decided to use the other M, if they did that - not sure how that would all work out--or even as a sub for a darker purpose - this is speculation, of course, and very unpleasant speculation, but I think I wrote on my other post about some odd similarities with the Jon Benet-R case - I find it hard to understand how educated, intelligent?, etc folks could get involved in extreme dark occult stuff, but ???

Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I would share.

All my opinion only and no offense or harm intended to anyone.

by Zelina 20.11.14 9:27

Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

by **Tony Bennett** 20.11.14 10:44

Zelina wrote:Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

Try 'kikoratton' on Twitter - and read through his thousands of tweets on the subject.

I don't understand the reasoning behind it either

by Guest 20.11.14 10:49

Zelina wrote:Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10343-naylor-rder-mccann-creche-signatures-revisited?highlight=creche+enquiry

Also go to Search (top right) and look for Creche Records and Creche Enquiry.

by Zelina 20.11.14 11:33

thank you both, I'm going to read through this tonight

by violet6000 20.11.14 15:28

Hi, Tony--

Thank you for explaining your thoughts--yes, I understand your points, it is all very odd; I was just offering a possible different interpretation. I'm not wedded to any one theory--on the contrary, just trying to see how things might fit together.

--Violet

by **Tony Bennett** 16.03.15 21:04

NickE wrote:Sorry Tony if this have been mention Before in this thread. The Polish couple's rental car was a grey, small Renault Clio

Maria De Silva.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm

*snip*

. Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment
..

@ NickE

Yes, this is interesting.

Only one car seen, and a 'small, grey car' just llke the one the Krokowskis rented. Was this another attempt to get the PJ to put the Krokowskis in the frame?

Or maybe there are lots of small grey cars in the Algarve?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wojcek Krokowski – and Robert Murat

Wojcek Krokowski was in Praia da Luz from 28 April to 5 May.

With his wife or partner.

Nuno Lourenco claimed, unconvincingly, that Wojeck Krokowski had tried to kidnap his daughter outside a Sagres pastry shop on Sunday 29 April.

He didn’t report this to the police until minutes after Krokowski’s plane to Berlin had taken off from Faro.

The holiday apartment where he stayed was the Solimar apartment, which was built by the father of Robert Murat.

The company that maintains and lets this, and other properties in Burgau, ATB [Actividades Turisticas do Burgau], situated on the Main Street, Marretas building, Burgau, Vila do Bispo, is still apparently run by the ex-partner of Robert Murat’s father. It is next to the Hotel Burgau. The e-mail address for both businesses is: hotel-burgau@jacinto-murat.pt

The one person who was able to give the PJ significant details about Krokowski’s stay in Burgau was an employee at the Burgau beach bar (see below), apparently owned by Ralph and Sally Eveleigh, the aunt and uncle of Robert Murat.

When the police made a forensic check of the Solimar apartment, hair haplotypes belonging to Jane Tanner and Robert Murat were found there.

Coincidences?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

References: (Grateful thanks and acknowledgements to pamalam and Maddie Case Files for providing the source material)

Processos Vol I
Pages 192 – 195

and

Outros Apensos VIII, Vol III
Pages 668-669

External diligence carried out at the Beach Bar in Burgau with CCTV images of Polish couple

In order to determine the comings and goings of the couple of Polish nationality, who spent their holiday in Burgau, we approached several business establishments and on the basis of the description which we have of the couple, the owner of the "Beach Bar" advised us that it could be two of his clients. He seemed to recall that the couple had lunch and dinner two or three times, without remembering the exact days, but it would have been at the beginning of the week. He knows that they are Polish because they spoke about football on the day of the Liverpool/Chelsea match, saying that Liverpool's goalkeeper was Polish. The match in question took place on May 1st 2007. They also discussed Portuguese and Brazilian classical music.

The couple know several performers from those countries. They asked the owner of the bar where they could buy music of this genre. The owner directed them to the FNAC shop at the Algarve shopping centre or to the Chiado commercial centre. They said they would probably go to Lisbon the same day. To the restaurateur, the couple seemed quite atypical of holiday-makers to that place. They paid in cash, the lady was often irritated and they dressed more formally than would expect for a summer holiday at a beach. The owner, however, did not perceive any abnormal behaviour from the couple.

The investigation determines that the couple effectively went to FNAC at the Chiado centre on May 2nd 2007 where they bought two comedy musicals CDs, paid for with credit card no. ... ... ... ..., the same one used to pay the Luzcar rent-a-car company for the hire of the vehicle, registration...AV-67. We seized the surveillance video and we attach photos from the FNAC surveillance system in which we can see the Polish couple in question.

02-Processo Vol II pages 304-305

02_VOLUMEIIa_Page_304

02_VOLUMEIIa_Page_305

External Diligence Burgau 06/05/2007

- In order to determine the exact trail of a couple from Poland, and who were on holiday in Burgau, we performed various tasks in particular with the catering establishment in the town, in the supermarkets, in the Garrafeira Ribeiro, in the Brizze Cafetaria, where we showed the photo from the Loja FNAC of the Chiado shopping mall, where [in which] the two above mentioned individuals are known to be (on the left of the picture), neither of them being recognised in any of those locations.

- The same was attempted at the Refugio restaurant but it was closed for its official day of rest.

- Contacted, the owner of the Beach Bar, who had already referred to serving a Polish couple, as per the Information report from the undersigned officers dated 05.05.2007, after being shown the above photo immediately recognised the lady and the individual with longer hair as having been the customers to whom he had referred the day before.

- We also contacted the owner of the Papelaria Fernandes, Gilberto Ferandes, where if it was intended to throw off the trail the possibility of the Polish couple having obtained various letters with the word "casa" [home; house], and other letters ending in a "z", as well as sticky tape to affix [fix; fasten; secure; seal] those letters, it being that when he was shown the above picture he immediately identified the lady and the individual with the longer hair as being the Polish couple, affirming peremptorily that it had not been this couple who had obtained such letters from him.

Asked how he met the couple he clarified that on 1 May they were in his shops, the paper shop and the gift shop, where they asked the price of various things [but] leaving without buying anything.

- He knew they were Polish due to talking about football, in particular Liverpool and Chelsea about the defender Dudec, who is Polish.

- He pointed out that the couple were dressed in the same way as they are portrayed in the photo.

The Solimar Apartment:

http://www.atbalgarveholidays.com/apartments/solimar-apartment

http://www.yelp.com/biz/a-t-b-actividades-turisticas-do-burgau-vila-do-bispo

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Was Wojcek Krokowski - 'Sagres man with a camera' - the template for both 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'?

What is your hypothesis about Sagres man, Tannerman, Smithman and Crecheman?