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Tuesday.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by inspirespirit on 30.08.14 15:18

@LombardySkeptik wrote:Its not my theory - its my disagreement of the theory being raised

Its not common practice for doctors to sedate their children (and with what? - lets throw out the Calpol nonsense for sure)

I accept that the Tapas7 were not normal/typical doctors based on the events but this is I think a sequence of unwise reactions and subsequent entanglement - this is not to excuse them in the conspiracy

However, whilst their own childcare was less than acceptable, I dont hold that sedation was part of it, especially given that their children were sickly that week

They are doctors and parents, and whilst they are downright disagreeable folk IMO, they are not medically and parentally so stupid - just alas criminally stupid
Thank you for answering.   So do you think they were parentally stupid enough to have left their children nightly, or do you think that is a red herring?
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by BlueBag on 30.08.14 16:23

Snipped from the other thread.

Ms Chekaya statement:

"She was recruited to give aerobic classes, however she was also asked to carry out a Quiz (game) twice a week (Tuesdays and Sundays) in the Ocean Club Tapas restaurant.


She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleines mother was also there.

When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine's father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50."
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by BlueBag on 31.08.14 7:59

Kate's Phone on May 1st.

KM
01-May

10.16
11.56
12.17
19.45

20.31
20.33
20.35
20.37

22.16
22.23
22.23
22.24
22.25
22.27
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by BlueBag on 31.08.14 8:01

Gerry on Irish TV:

"The next morning (note! he talking about Thursday morning) she said er.. mummy... I can't remember if it was mummy or daddy now.... why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying.... we both looked at each other and though that's odd.. crying...  we didn't hear anything... and we had been back checking... and so we asked and said when did you cry.. sometimes when you first put them to bed they cry.. she just dropped it.. as we've said Madeleine is very articulate... and we kind of looked at each other and thought did they wake up or was it the night before when Amelie woke up and Kate had obviously slept in that room... (Kate moves her hand over his at this point, to tell him he's slipped up)... so at the time we weren't even sure they had woken up.. but now... (Gerry looks uncertain, he knows he's said something wrong)..."
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by palm tree on 31.08.14 11:37

So now we have two nights of crying and two nights when km slept in the children's room! Who is lying?
IMO
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Hicks on 31.08.14 13:51

@BlueBag wrote:So... what if Kate made her calls then left 5A and woke the kids as she exited?

And Madeleine got up and had an accident that involved the sofa and bleeding.

When discovered later, Kate slept in the kids room that later night to keep an eye on her.

Perhaps Madeleine although ill could still speak the next morning and said "why didn't you come when we were crying...?"

But her condition got worse, head injury, internal bleeding.

Doctors who completely messed up.. 

And some other things perhaps going on that week.

End of careers and lifestyle.

Just thinking, no facts. Just opinion.
But then why would a professional liar leave his job to act on the McCann's behalf? Why would Goncalo Amaral tell us that the British intelligent services were involved ? More importantly, why would the then Labour government want to protect two negligent parents? The foreign Office was warned about the McCann's suspicious behaviour, not co-operating with the PJ, as seen in a Wiki cable .
Funny that John Buck left the Diplomatic service completely when the McCann's were made Alguido's.

Perhaps an accident, imo more likely not. There is an invisible undercurrent in all this, the crux of the mystery as yet unknown.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Guest on 31.08.14 14:33

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Hicks on 31.08.14 14:56

Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by BlueBag on 31.08.14 16:24

@Hicks wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:So... what if Kate made her calls then left 5A and woke the kids as she exited?

And Madeleine got up and had an accident that involved the sofa and bleeding.

When discovered later, Kate slept in the kids room that later night to keep an eye on her.

Perhaps Madeleine although ill could still speak the next morning and said "why didn't you come when we were crying...?"

But her condition got worse, head injury, internal bleeding.

Doctors who completely messed up.. 

And some other things perhaps going on that week.

End of careers and lifestyle.

Just thinking, no facts. Just opinion.
But then why would a professional liar leave his job to act on the McCann's behalf? Why would Goncalo Amaral tell us that the British intelligent services were involved ? More importantly, why would the then Labour government want to protect two negligent parents? The foreign Office was warned about the McCann's suspicious behaviour, not co-operating with the PJ, as seen in a Wiki cable .
Funny that John Buck left the Diplomatic service completely when the McCann's were made Alguido's.

Perhaps an accident, imo more likely not. There is an invisible undercurrent in all this, the crux of the mystery as yet unknown.
Don't worry, I also  understand that part of the puzzle. For the Government to send media monitors as a priority there is indeed an invisible undercurrent.

Also, if it was just an accident and they glossed over a head injury that eventually got worse, I think they could just have survived that one by saying we didn't think it was so bad.

But what if a post mortem on the body revealed other things?
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by cloak'ndagger on 31.08.14 16:37

@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

I haven't seen the info about the lady in purple having been seen outside the apartment on the night of Maddie's abduction. I do recall that Tanner was wearing purple though. I would be interested in a link if you have I please.

While Amaral's theory that Maddie fell down behind the sofa seems the most likely from the forensics [blood found behind the sofa and cadaver dog alert] I cannot forget the disturbing photos of a Maddie dressing up and looking like she had make up professionally applied . .I have shown those photos to friends and the strongest reaction to those same photos comes from males. Not one was able to articulate how he felt. Their shocked expressions said it all and convinced them of the McCanns' guilt where footage of the cadaver dogs could not.

Poor Maddie I do hope she is in a better place roses

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Hicks on 31.08.14 17:14

@cloak'ndagger wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

I haven't seen the info about the lady in purple having been seen outside the apartment on the night of Maddie's abduction. I do recall that Tanner was wearing purple though. I would be interested in a link if you have I please.

While Amaral's theory that Maddie fell down behind the sofa seems the most likely from the forensics [blood found behind the sofa and cadaver dog alert] I cannot forget the disturbing photos of a Maddie dressing up and looking like she had make up professionally applied . .I have shown those photos to friends and the strongest reaction to those same photos comes from males. Not one was able to articulate how he felt. Their shocked expressions said it all and convinced them of the McCanns' guilt where footage of the cadaver dogs could not.

Poor Maddie I do hope she is in a better place roses
You'll need to scroll down a fair bit to....'Who was woman outside ..
Interesting about the brown car that swung around the corner in a hurry. Adds more confusion, did the car come to take Madeleine's body away?
I was reading somewhere (can't remember where now) that Goncalo Amaral suspected Russell O'Brien(I think) of having access to a car. This car was on a list of cars that were to be searched for evidence. Does anyone have info on this please?
IIRC Trish Cameron said in a statement that when she arrived at Faro Airport she had use of a 'friends car'. Who was that friend?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id238.html.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Guest on 31.08.14 18:02

@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

The sedation - if it happened - of the twins on the Thursday night could mean one of three things, imo:

1) The children were all sedated every night so the parents could leave them with confindence. This would indicate that what happened to Maddie did not happen earlier in the week as they wouldn't risk the authorities detecting the sedation on the Thursday. It would indicate this was their routine and the event did indeed happen on Thursday evening.

2) The children were not routinely sedated but something happened earlier in the week. The cover-up operation was to take the form of a staged abduction and/or the body was to be removed that night, therefore it was necessary to dose the children to ensure they slept through on this occasion only out of necessity. If this is the case, from where did they obtain the sedatives at short notice?

3) The whole thing was pre-planned and they came on holiday with a specific purpose. The sedation was part of the plan and the drugs brought with them.


Of the three 2) seems unlikely because, as we've discussed, it's a crazy and unnecessary risk. 3) seems unlikely becuase it's just too awful to contemplate and raises too many other questions which have unlikely answers. However, 3) would explain the swift response to the call for aid.

Any other permutations?
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by sar on 31.08.14 18:08

@Hicks wrote:
@cloak'ndagger wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

I haven't seen the info about the lady in purple having been seen outside the apartment on the night of Maddie's abduction. I do recall that Tanner was wearing purple though. I would be interested in a link if you have I please.

While Amaral's theory that Maddie fell down behind the sofa seems the most likely from the forensics [blood found behind the sofa and cadaver dog alert] I cannot forget the disturbing photos of a Maddie dressing up and looking like she had make up professionally applied . .I have shown those photos to friends and the strongest reaction to those same photos comes from males. Not one was able to articulate how he felt. Their shocked expressions said it all and convinced them of the McCanns' guilt where footage of the cadaver dogs could not.

Poor Maddie I do hope she is in a better place roses
You'll need to scroll down a fair bit to....'Who was woman outside ..
Interesting about the brown car that swung around the corner in a hurry. Adds more confusion, did the car come to take Madeleine's body away?
I was reading somewhere (can't remember where now) that Goncalo Amaral suspected Russell O'Brien(I think) of having access to a car. This car was on a list of cars that were to be searched for evidence. Does anyone have info on this please?
IIRC Trish Cameron said in a statement that when she arrived at Faro Airport she had use of a 'friends car'. Who was that friend?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id238.html.
if "something" was planned to be taken from 5a or environs and that pick up didn't happen, leaving someone to carry something through the streets of P da L late at night, then yes, that might just be the "biggest cock up in history"

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Hicks on 31.08.14 19:34

Dee Coy wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

The sedation - if it happened - of the twins on the Thursday night could mean one of three things, imo:

1) The children were all sedated every night so the parents could leave them with confindence. This would indicate that what happened to Maddie did not happen earlier in the week as they wouldn't risk the authorities detecting the sedation on the Thursday. It would indicate this was their routine and the event did indeed happen on Thursday evening.

2) The children were not routinely sedated but something happened earlier in the week. The cover-up operation was to take the form of a staged abduction and/or the body was to be removed that night, therefore it was necessary to dose the children to ensure they slept through on this occasion only out of necessity. If this is the case, from where did they obtain the sedatives at short notice?

3) The whole thing was pre-planned and they came on holiday with a specific purpose. The sedation was part of the plan and the drugs brought with them.


Of the three 2) seems unlikely because, as we've discussed, it's a crazy and unnecessary risk. 3) seems unlikely becuase it's just too awful to contemplate and raises too many other questions which have unlikely answers. However, 3) would explain the swift response to the call for aid.

Any other permutations?
Mrs Fenn, heard a child crying, and for some time on the Tuesday, so I think we can safely disregard option one.

Where can you get sedatives in PDL without first going to a doctor? Maybe you can get the next best thing at the local chemist, I doubt you would need much to knock out two very young children if you knew what you were looking for. Kate is/was an Anaesthetist don't forget. Option two cannot be disregarded.

The mystery over the postcard type photo's of Madeleine, said to have been printed by some machine that was later taken to France by an OC employees boyfriend, seems very suspicious to me. IIRC the PJ had doubts. Add to this the rapid fund set up. GM caught unaware laughing and joking a few days after the event. Kate McCann was seen by a local shop keeper having fits of laughter with a friend walking past her shop. I also think that the 'Riddler' knew more than most. S/he gave the opinion that 'Praia Da Luz' was the place for 'it' to happen.
As you say, a swift response. The British Ambassador drove to PLD, perhaps told in no uncertain terms to get there asap.
The constant smirking by both these -parents- when giving interviews, gives me the shivers, so yes, I can see option three being very likely. All my opinion of course.

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You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln.
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by j.rob on 31.08.14 21:41

@sar wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@cloak'ndagger wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

I haven't seen the info about the lady in purple having been seen outside the apartment on the night of Maddie's abduction. I do recall that Tanner was wearing purple though. I would be interested in a link if you have I please.

While Amaral's theory that Maddie fell down behind the sofa seems the most likely from the forensics [blood found behind the sofa and cadaver dog alert] I cannot forget the disturbing photos of a Maddie dressing up and looking like she had make up professionally applied . .I have shown those photos to friends and the strongest reaction to those same photos comes from males. Not one was able to articulate how he felt. Their shocked expressions said it all and convinced them of the McCanns' guilt where footage of the cadaver dogs could not.

Poor Maddie I do hope she is in a better place roses
You'll need to scroll down a fair bit to....'Who was woman outside ..
Interesting about the brown car that swung around the corner in a hurry. Adds more confusion, did the car come to take Madeleine's body away?
I was reading somewhere (can't remember where now) that Goncalo Amaral suspected Russell O'Brien(I think) of having access to a car. This car was on a list of cars that were to be searched for evidence. Does anyone have info on this please?
IIRC Trish Cameron said in a statement that when she arrived at Faro Airport she had use of a 'friends car'. Who was that friend?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id238.html.
if "something" was planned to be taken from 5a or environs and that pick up didn't happen, leaving someone to carry something through the streets of P da L late at night, then yes, that might just be the "biggest cock up in history"


Yes - I think there was a plan which went wrong. 

Lots of last minute panicking, hence the inconsistent witness statements and so on. And maybe why Murat flew out at the last minute.

This would explain why TM were given high level support. The 'plan' had to be kept secret, otherwise it would reveal a can of worms.

I think a lot of the 'wider agenda' was to do with whipping up paranoia about 'stranger danger'. A bit like what is happening now with the Government saying there is a high risk of terrorist attack.

Whose fault would that be, then?

I also personally think it is suspicious that from the very outset the Mcs - and at least some of their friends - claimed that they thought Madeleine had been taken by a paedophile.

There are many layers to this, imo.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Guest on 31.08.14 22:07

@cloak'ndagger wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@inspirespirit wrote:It could have been Amelie crying that Mrs Fenn heard.   She heard a child crying 'Daddy' .  Well Maddie would have been more capable than that and would have shouted Daddy where are you, or Mummy where are you. Plus the bedroom door was open so she would have got up and went looking for them.  Anyone with a 3/4 year old child knows they do not stay in their own bed.  If they wake up they come looking.

So maybe Madeleine went looking and either fell over the balcony or down the steps (probably woozy from sedatives), whilst looking for Mummy and Daddy to tell them Amelie was crying.

I think the reason they are all covering, is that had they tested all the children, they would all have shown signs of mild sedation.  They ALL stood to lose their children and careers.

But, one thing I have a problem with, if a fatal accident occurred on any night other than the Thurs, then the parents (and any of the tapas group) would have had to have been mad to give any of the children sedatives on the night they knew they would have to call in the police.

So if any of the children were sedated on the Thurs it can only have been because the parents (and possibly some of the group as well) were caught out by something unexpected on that particular evening.

This an anomoly I've long pondered so agree with you, Suzy.
Agree also.
It's probable that the twins were sedated while the body was moved out of the apartment, this would ensure that there could be no recollection for them if they woke at an awkward moment, and also they would not be a problem during this time.
Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday. All my opinion only.

I haven't seen the info about the lady in purple having been seen outside the apartment on the night of Maddie's abduction. I do recall that Tanner was wearing purple though. I would be interested in a link if you have I please.

While Amaral's theory that Maddie fell down behind the sofa seems the most likely from the forensics [blood found behind the sofa and cadaver dog alert] I cannot forget the disturbing photos of a Maddie dressing up and looking like she had make up professionally applied . .I have shown those photos to friends and the strongest reaction to those same photos comes from males. Not one was able to articulate how he felt. Their shocked expressions said it all and convinced them of the McCanns' guilt where footage of the cadaver dogs could not.

Poor Maddie I do hope she is in a better place roses

Hicks says:  "Jane Tanner was the look out, as seen by the elderly British lady who saw a 'Portuguese looking woman, wearing purple' acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour before Madeleine disappeared. According to this lady this woman did not want to be seen.
Madeleine died sometime after 5.30 on the Thursday".

That instantly rang a bell with me.  This is taken from Jeremy Wilkins rogatory statement:

Q. Relative to whether I know Jane Tanner;
Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by palm tree on 31.08.14 22:28

In the article above, just under the info about a woman in purple there's an apology from the daily mail. Saying that RM did not call SM on that night and that SM only knows RM through work relations. They also say that made suspicion fall on RM. I don't know if RM played any part in this, but could that be the biggest f up on the planet?
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by suzyjohnson on 01.09.14 1:37

What was Jane Tanner wearing at the tapas bar on the Thurs evening? Russell's fleece? If Jez Wilkins (and another witness) noticed her by the road outside the apartments wearing purple, this would have been around 8.15 pm - 8.30 pm? 


JW statement ' I decided to take [my son] for a walk in his pram. I left about 8.15 pm – 8.30 pm'.


Jane wasn't wearing purple earlier, on the Paraiso CCTV she is seen wearing a red top and carrying a striped bag. So, she would have gone back and changed into the purple outfit, but if she didn't wear this to the tapas, then she must have changed again. But when?


JT's rogatory statement ' ... I think Russell came back, I think they were supposed to finish [tennis] at half seven and it was around, I think they had a bit of, but it went on a bit longer, so they were probably back about, he was probably back about quarter to eight.  And then put the, and they weren’t, Ella and Evie weren’t in bed at that point, erm, I think they, it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them into bed.  And then I went down to the restaurant just after half eight .....' 


So did Jane wear purple to the tapas? Or was she away from her own apartment between 7.45 pm and 8.15 pm and then went back to quickly change again before 8.30 pm?


Could she have been alerted to an accident in 5A and gone to assist as soon as Russell arrived back? In one tv interview she says, 'I carried her' Was there a reason Jane needed to change outfits? (if in fact she did) Could the McCanns have attempted to move MM's body before 8.30 pm (with JT acting as look-out) but decided against since it was still light and busy outside? 

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by sar on 01.09.14 8:34


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Re: Tuesday.

Post by cloak'ndagger on 01.09.14 11:11

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/41sep10/SteeL8_06_09_2010.htm

This article is worth reading.

A snip

Jane Tanner.Why it is so important to her that we know she did not have jeans with her when Madeleine disappeared. She is not asked what clothing she wore on that night, but volunteers the information. And goes on to explain she was wearing one of O'Brians fleeces.
 
 
QUOTE
 
I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here,but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.
 
 
 
The fabricated article of the bag found along the road to Faro airport and its list of contents are of no importance…just the two items are relevant above the reporter Dominic Herberts name.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Hicks on 01.09.14 11:46

Jez Wilkins tells us clearly that Jane Tanner was wearing purple. Another witness says there was a woman, possibly in the same spot, wearing purple. JT likes to wear purple as seen in various photos.
Why would JT have frequent changes of clothes in such a short space of time? I can think of a very good reason. The group, being doctors are forensically aware people.

I suspect that GM also had a rapid change of clothes. The fact that the dogs picked up Kate's clothing suggests she did not play a part in the removal, by that I mean actually carrying the body, though close enough to get contaminated.

There were bins all over PDL that evening, waiting for collection. As far as I know they were not searched. Perhaps the biggest oversight by the PJ.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by HelenMeg on 01.09.14 11:49

@cloak'ndagger wrote:http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/41sep10/SteeL8_06_09_2010.htm

This article is worth reading.

A snip

Jane Tanner.Why it is so important to her that we know she did not have jeans with her when Madeleine disappeared. She is not asked what clothing she wore on that night, but volunteers the information. And goes on to explain she was wearing one of O'Brians fleeces.
 
 
QUOTE
 
I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here,but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.
 
 
 
The fabricated article of the bag found along the road to Faro airport and its list of contents are of no importance…just the two items are relevant above the reporter Dominic Herberts name.
Yes - good read.

I have often wondered why JT played such a prominent role - why she agreed to. Why would anyone wish to
lie so publicly. What motivated her. It has to be to protect RO - of course.  RO, who has since remained very much in the background and is not featured in discussion as much as other TAPAS 7.  JT seems to have been motivated by a desire to protect her children's father. He obviously played a key role and as his Consultancy was in Acute medicine, he would be a very obvious choice to aid an acutely ill child. None of the other 'doctor consultants' were specialised in that area of medicine. Wow - It makes sense now.... jeans / fleece etc etc. IMO.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by HelenMeg on 01.09.14 11:56

I had never really thought about the docs - DP / MO / RO / GM in terms of their specialty regarding  medical skills. But RO was the one who was the Consultant in Acute Medicine - which would have been very very very helpful in assisting a child who was gravely ill / dying. Perhaps he would have been a very obvious choice if a child's life needed to be saved. In fact not just perhaps - almost certainly. So if anyone of those docs was called to assist M whilst she lay dying then it would probably have been him - if that situation occurred of course. IMO.

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Re: Tuesday.

Post by Guest on 01.09.14 12:19

Going back to the why Jane Tanner was flip-flopping about the streets on that particular night and the possibility that she may have been involved in some Tapas activity, this bit of Martin Grimes report keeps gnawing away at me:

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door. 

Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.


Could it be that the appearance of Wilkins interrupted something?
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Re: Tuesday.

Post by cloak'ndagger on 01.09.14 12:50

Gollum wrote:Going back to the why Jane Tanner was flip-flopping about the streets on that particular night and the possibility that she may have been involved in some Tapas activity, this bit of Martin Grimes report keeps gnawing away at me:

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by the door. 

Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.


Could it be that the appearance of Wilkins interrupted something?
 Yes Gollum. I always believed that the Tapas members [including Gerry I am sure] were interrupted  by the arrival of Wilkins when attempting to dispose of the cadaver  and had to place the body temporarily in the garden area outside he apartment.

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