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"Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

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"Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by NickE on 03.08.14 19:39

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[ltr]JillyCL I found a huge clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation I mean huge[/ltr]
















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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Justformaddie on 03.08.14 21:12

It could be that mo meant the patio door was closed but unlocked? Although I don't understand why he said always unlocked. I don't think mo checked on previous nights? Plus,did km mention at the table if it was ok to leave them unlocked so maddie could find them, or was that the night before indicating that was the first night that it was left open? huh

Sorry, I meant left unlocked, my mistake.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by suzyjohnson on 03.08.14 22:04

1) Do the Portuguese have different words for 'open' as in 'not locked' and 'open' as in 'not closed'? 


2) I can't believe any parent could leave a door open so that a three year old could leave an apartment after 8.30 pm at night to find them, in the dark, negotiating some steps when she was tired and possibly distressed, when they were in a building across the other side of a swimming pool,  not to mention several roads she could choose to walk down. Any one of those considerations would be a worry.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Woofer on 03.08.14 23:00

The same part of GM`s statement translated back into English, from McCann files :-
 
...... At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked. He went into the room, saw the twins and didn’t even notice if Madeleine was there, as everything was quiet, the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.
 
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed. 

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by canada12 on 03.08.14 23:12

@Woofer wrote:The same part of GM`s statement translated back into English, from McCann files :-
 
...... At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked. He went into the room, saw the twins and didn’t even notice if Madeleine was there, as everything was quiet, the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.
 
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed. 


I remember conversations about this a very long time ago. The pertinent question to ask was - is it one of those hotel-like sliding doors which, if closed, locks automatically? Or if it is closed, does it stay unlocked until a latch is engaged from the inside?

If the sliding door can be closed but only locked from the inside, then it can be accessed from the outside, ie by MO.
If the sliding door can be closed but it automatically locks when it is closed, then according to MO, the sliding door must have been left slightly open in order for him to access the apartment.
The confusion lies in what Kate means when she indicates the door was closed. Was it locked? If it locks automatically when it's closed from the outside, then it could have been closed and locked by the "intruder" when exiting. But then... why would she assume it was an intruder who closed the door. It could just have easily been MO when leaving. Did she ask MO if he'd closed the door?
Likewise, if the sliding door was closed but not locked, why would she assume it was an intruder? Again, it could just have easily been MO who closed the door.
And why would Kate have entered the apartment using her key? If MO knew the sliding door was always open, then why didn't Kate enter by the sliding door also? She must have known that it was locked from the inside and she couldn't go in that way. It's a shorter trip to the sliding door entrance than it is to the front door with the key. Why make the longer journey to the front door when you don't have to? Also bearing in mind that she would have noticed the shutters were up if she'd gone in through the front door, because the front door is right next to the bedroom window in question.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by suzyjohnson on 04.08.14 1:08

Need to check but I think the extract above is from Gerry's statement to the PJ? 

You're quite right Canada12 that Kate must have noticed the window and shutters open had she gone into the apartment by the front door.

I doubt, in any circumstances, that the McCanns would have gone out and left the sliding patio door ajar. AFAIK this door would have remained closed but unlocked, it wasn't possible to lock this door from the outside.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by canada12 on 04.08.14 2:01

@suzyjohnson wrote:Need to check but I think the extract above is from Gerry's statement to the PJ? 

You're quite right Canada12 that Kate must have noticed the window and shutters open had she gone into the apartment by the front door.

I doubt, in any circumstances, that the McCanns would have gone out and left the sliding patio door ajar. AFAIK this door would have remained closed but unlocked, it wasn't possible to lock this door from the outside.

Yes it's Gerry's statement to the PJ:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html
Yesterday, after the daily routine, MADELEINE and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds, and he stresses put to bed, at 7.30 pm. The deponent and his wife remained in the apartment to relax and drink a glass of wine until 8.30 pm. After checking the children, the deponent and his wife and the adults went to the "Tapas" restaurant, around 50 metres away, where they had dinner together. As usual, every half hour and considering that the restaurant was close to the apartment, the deponent or his wife went to check if the children were ok. Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant. At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked. He went into the room, saw the twins and didn’t even notice if Madeleine was there, as everything was quiet, the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.

At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.


Kate says she went in through the sliding door:
At around 9.30pm, at the time when the witness should have gone to see her children, her friend Matt (a member of the group), who was coming to check, as well, went to the apartment where his children were staying and on his way went to the witness’s apartment. He entered the apartment through a glass sliding door at the side that was always unlocked and once inside, he had not gone into the children's bedroom. He remained at the bedroom door, listening for noise and observing the beds. He went back to the restaurant and said that everything was fine.

At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

So Kate and Gerry obviously didn't think to get their stories straight before talking to the police, or one of them is lying. And, as I mentioned before, if MO went in through the sliding glass door, why did Gerry go in through the locked front door? It would have been quicker to go in through the sliding glass door, as Kate claims she did.

So, if Gerry's saying he went in through the locked front door, it must only be to try to narrow down the "abduction" time, since he would have noticed if the children's window was open.

Likewise, if Kate had gone in through the locked front door, she would also have noticed if the children's window was open. It would have been easy for her to claim that she had noticed the window open at that point, and then run through her "panic" just the same, so why did she say she went in through the balcony door when Gerry claimed she went in through the locked door? My thinking is because in their not-so-well planned scenario, they claimed immediately that Kate noticed the window was open from the inside, with the whooshing curtains and everything else. So she HAD to say she'd entered from the balcony in order for this claim to make sense. If she'd entered from the locked front door, she'd have seen the open shutters, and her initial story would have been proved to be wrong.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by suzyjohnson on 04.08.14 2:28

IIRC Gerry's statement was made first?

I think that it was Gerry's intention to say that he had gone in through the apartment's front door because I do not think he wanted the PJ to know that he had ever left the patio door open.

However, in the course of his interview he slipped up twice, the first that Matt had entered the apartment through the patio door, and the second that Kate had gone through the front door at 10 pm and then noticed the open window once inside (not realising that the window would have been obvious from the outside too)

After giving this statement I think he realised his two mistakes and tried to sort the problem out, in the only way he really could, by saying he had forgotten that he went in via the patio door on that evening after all.

I don't think he said that he went in via the front door so that he could narrow down the time of abduction as you suggest because by 9.10 pm he stated that he was actually in the children's bedroom, had sight of Madeleine and would have noticed had the bedroom window been open at that point (so it would have been completely unnecessary to say he had gone in through the front door in order to convince that the window was still shut at 9.05 pm)

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Justformaddie on 04.08.14 10:08

What needs explaining here is why the change from locked front door, to unlocked patio door. Wish they'd let us know! But eh, confusions good, so were told, when your daughter disappears. Bloody w@llys  angry

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Nina on 04.08.14 10:25

Snipped,
the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.

How did Matt know that the bedroom door was usually half open, he hadn't ever checked before?

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Guest on 04.08.14 11:04

Yes Nina, that's strange.

In view of Kate's comment that, on that last "check", she noticed that the bedroom door was not as they had left it (presumably meaning herself and Gerry when they went out) this suggests that nobody had been in previously or she wouldn't have know how the door was left.
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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by BlueBag on 04.08.14 11:08

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Yes Nina, that's strange.

In view of Kate's comment that, on that last "check", she noticed that the bedroom door was not as they had left it (presumably meaning herself and Gerry when they went out) this suggests that nobody had been in previously or she wouldn't have know how the door was left.

She would have had no idea how Mat left it.

So it's complete nonsense from Kate... her face when she's telling this bit is always interesting.. that slight head back and pulled expression... bad dramatics.

Kate.. you read this forum... we know it's crap.
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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by sar on 04.08.14 17:47

possibly akin to a bad town hall am dram performance ambitiously attempted "in the round"

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by XTC on 09.08.14 23:25

@Justformaddie wrote:What needs explaining here is why the change from locked front door, to unlocked patio door. Wish they'd let us know! But eh, confusions good, so were told, when your daughter disappears. Bloody w@llys  angry
It does indeed.

It does seem to show that from the off the tale of the shutters is an achilles heel.

These patio doors are designed so that idiots like me ( drunk or sober ) don't lock ourselves out of the apatrment so we are stood like
clowns on the balcony. They have a turnbuckle which you turn to the right from inside which locks the doors. Unless you have magical powers you can't lock them from the outside

The shutters are the anti burglary repellers not the doors. You can't lift them from outside without a struggle before they become lop sided and
jam up. The same for the bedroom window.

The escape clause is the front door which has a Crucifix Key. This is like a Yale type mechanism which deadlocks the door ( i.e.  You need a key to un deadlock the door ). If it isn't locked it acts like a Yale latch. You pull the latch sideways and you can open the door easily.

Mr Oldfield being sound of mind and short on time says he went through the patio door which was unlocked. Therefore being a lazy beggar myself if that was me I would swiftly exit after my check on 5a via the unlocked front wooden door to check on my kids who are just to the left of the wooden door. Basically I wouldn't trek all round the back to get to my apartment at the front uless I too had left my patio doors unlocked.

I'm not an educated doctor so I don't know what a doctor would do but that's what I'd have done.

Of course if the wooden door was locked I'd have a quick curse at the McCanns and walk all the way round in order to check on my kids.

It works the other way round as well. If you have a key to 5a handy to enter via the front and exit out of the patio door.

The trouble is it is said that the Crucifix Key to 5a was left in the apartment beacause it wasn't needed ( the patio door was left unlocked?)

Perhaps the ' Key ' to this case is the Key?

All opinion.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by suzyjohnson on 10.08.14 0:56

@XTC wrote:


Mr Oldfield being sound of mind and short on time says he went through the patio door which was unlocked. Therefore being a lazy beggar myself if that was me I would swiftly exit after my check on 5a via the unlocked front wooden door to check on my kids who are just to the left of the wooden door. Basically I wouldn't trek all round the back to get to my apartment at the front uless I too had left my patio doors unlocked .......... Of course if the wooden door was locked I'd have a quick curse at the McCanns and walk all the way round in order to check on my kids.


Very good XTC, that makes a good deal of sense.

It follows from this that, IF Matt was ever in apartment 5A on the evening of May 3rd, then -

1) He either assumed that the front door was deadlocked and did not try it at all (why would he assume that?)
or
2) He tried the front door and therefore would know, for certain, whether or not that door was deadlocked
or
3) Matt had left his own patio doors open

I'm going to think about the implications of this in the morning, too tired just now. 

Would like to re-read what Matt himself said about this

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by SixMillionQuid on 10.08.14 8:10

That patio door was/is something that needed looking at more closely. Former residence said you cant close it shut from the outside.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8766-how-do-you-close-a-patio-door-that-cant-be-closed

There's no handle on the outside so how you open and close it shut without leaving your greasy hand prints all over it? And lets say the abductor used gloves, if the door is firmly shut how will he/she get a secure grip from the outside? No sign of Oldfields or Kate prints on the patio door? Over to Grange to explain that one.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Guest on 10.08.14 11:46

@Justformaddie wrote:What needs explaining here is why the change from locked front door, to unlocked patio door. Wish they'd let us know! But eh, confusions good, so were told, when your daughter disappears. Bloody w@llys  angry



If GM/MO did their checks using the front door they would have had to pass by the jemmied shutters and notice them.
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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Justformaddie on 10.08.14 12:01

Marlie wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:What needs explaining here is why the change from locked front door, to unlocked patio door. Wish they'd let us know! But eh, confusions good, so were told, when your daughter disappears. Bloody w@llys  angry



If GM/MO did their checks using the front door they would have had to pass by the jemmied shutters and notice them.
Ofcourse, but they were never jemmied  winkwink Even after MO and mcs check. Forgot, he was hiding behind the bedroom door then, yea right ok. Sorted.  aaaah 
IMO

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Monty Heck on 10.08.14 12:39

@SixMillionQuid wrote:That patio door was/is something that needed looking at more closely. Former residence said you cant close it shut from the outside.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8766-how-do-you-close-a-patio-door-that-cant-be-closed

There's no handle on the outside so how you open and close it shut without leaving your greasy hand prints all over it? And lets say the abductor used gloves, if the door is firmly shut how will he/she get a secure grip from the outside? No sign of Oldfields or Kate prints on the patio door? Over to Grange to explain that one.
Thanks SMQ, interesting to see what others who stayed in 5a had to say about accessing/exiting the patio doors.  Reading the evidence, it is pretty impossible not to conclude that the story of carrying out visual checks entailing entry to the apartment is nonsense.  At best it seems likely that there was no more than the occasional sweep by and listening outside, as described in some of the statements.  I'm with Suzy Johnson who says above:
"2) I can't believe any parent could leave a door open so that a three year old could leave an apartment after 8.30 pm at night to find them, in the dark, negotiating some steps when she was tired and possibly distressed, when they were in a building across the other side of a swimming pool, not to mention several roads she could choose to walk down. Any one of those considerations would be a worry."

It is implausble, to put it mildly, that any individual of sense would go out and deliberately leave their apartment with open access, even without anyone left on the premises.  With small sleeping children within, even less plausible, for the reasons SJ has outlined.  The only rational explanation for the mutual confidence within the group that they could go off each evening for me time without needing to supervise their sleeping children would be the knowledge that the children couldn't wake or get into mischief, and that the apartments were secured.  The tale as told collapses at the intial hurdle because these alleged actions are without credibility of any sort and there is simply no getting around that.  When people are saying on the one hand they are desperate to find their child but the evidence is that they are not telling the truth in part or in whole then they should be investigated thoroughly, but regrettably there is nothing as yet to indicate that has, or ever will happen.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Monty Heck on 10.08.14 12:58

Just to add to the above, the McCs have recorded in their signed statements that they secured the apartment when out and and about during the day.  The claim that they could leave their apartment unlocked with unattended children in the evening because "it felt so safe" fails to stand as they were by their own admission perfectly security conscious during daylight hours.  There is no rational explanation for feeling "so safe" in leaving the place unsecured only in the evenings as they do not seem to have claimed they left the apartment with open access during the night either.  Waking the children by unlocking the "noisy" front door is vastly less of a risk to their welfare than leaving the apartment open and nobody with an ounce of sense would do so.  Totally unconvincing, IMO.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by SixMillionQuid on 10.08.14 13:33

When David Payne went on his 6 - 6:30pm urgent visit to see Kate

1485 "Did you open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or''
 Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed...


I think Kate version of events is different, but luckily for him the door was open he walked right on in.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

No wait Kate says something different

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door.
She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

So the door wasn't already open when David arrived?

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Guest on 10.08.14 13:44

What a **~~** joke.  Poor Madeleine.  To think that these disgusting people continue to parent their children.  They will all have mental health problems when they are adults, IMO.
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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Nina on 10.08.14 14:58

Mmmm eating and looking at some books. What were they eating, they had had high tea supposedly an hour before and what books. The apartment wasn't particulary tidy when seen in the first photographs, well it just looked a lived in holiday apartment, but no evidence of any books on the settee. Was the bedtime story a book read story or a made up one, gosh I bet Kate was an ace made up story teller.

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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by aquila on 10.08.14 19:30

@Nina wrote:Mmmm eating and looking at some books. What were they eating, they had had high tea supposedly an hour before and what books. The apartment wasn't particulary tidy when seen in the first photographs, well it just looked a lived in holiday apartment, but no evidence of any books on the settee. Was the bedtime story a book read story or a made up one, gosh I bet Kate was an ace made up story teller.
If you look at SY's CrimeWatch spectacular production (the UK version) - this will be the production made in Spain - a co-production with the McCanns as they took part in it to voice what happened - showing Madeleine with long dark hair and Sean with dark hair morphing from a toddler to a baby in a swanky apartment with a white leather sofa, a white table, chrome and perspex chairs (such accurate attention to detail! - obviously the European version was different)  I think you'll find Kate nestled between the kids reading a big book about a giraffe and a lion.

I've just re-watched this and either Scotland Yard are taking the piss or they're playing a blinder (I happen to think the former until proved otherwise).

10mins 28secs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y

Needless to say the McCann version of events in this CrimeWatch version by Scotland Yard bears no accurate relevance to the statements.

ETA: There's also a pushchair - you know the pushchair that the McCanns didn't have.
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Re: "Madeleine McCann and the lie about sliding door - clue in Portuguese that is missing in English translation"

Post by Guest on 10.08.14 19:46

@aquila wrote:
@Nina wrote:Mmmm eating and looking at some books. What were they eating, they had had high tea supposedly an hour before and what books. The apartment wasn't particulary tidy when seen in the first photographs, well it just looked a lived in holiday apartment, but no evidence of any books on the settee. Was the bedtime story a book read story or a made up one, gosh I bet Kate was an ace made up story teller.
If you look at SY's CrimeWatch spectacular production (the UK version) - this will be the production made in Spain - a co-production with the McCanns as they took part in it to voice what happened - showing Madeleine with long dark hair and Sean with dark hair morphing from a toddler to a baby in a swanky apartment with a white leather sofa, a white table, chrome and perspex chairs (such accurate attention to detail! - obviously the European version was different)  I think you'll find Kate nestled between the kids reading a big book about a giraffe and a lion.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1841215651



Edit: Forgot to say, the giraffe is called Gerald.
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