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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Post by Cristobell 14.08.14 13:44

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:Pat Brown has made a huge error in dismissing the witness evidence of the Gaspers.  Like other commentators, she does not have access to the investigation and is basing her conclusions on a couple of statements given 7 years ago.  I don't know if the Gaspers statements are relevant or not, but I think it is absurd for outside commentators to write off witnesses in this case when they know so little.

I wouldn't call it an error let alone quantify it.  
None of us has access to investigation.
 Every one of us, including Pat Brown, our take on things is based on the values we placed on the evidence.  It's interesting to hear her take on things from a professional crime profiler view point.
However, what I feel irrelevant is personal preference over choice of content as deemed appropriate or not based on one own's assumed value on it if one were to bear in mind the objective of the videos then anything and everything that is historical record but buried by MSM is good enough to be put out there.
In the 7 years that I have followed this case, I have had one golden rule.  As soon as a commentator discards facts and evidence in order to make the story fit their own personal theory, I stop reading them. 

I have no idea what you are saying in your final paragraph.
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Post by Doug D 14.08.14 13:50

Don’t think this has been posted before, but apologies if it has.
 
New Lazzeri blog querying Fiona Paynes alleged visit to the McCann’s apartment as stated on the film.
 
I’m sure she is correct with this.
 
http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Happy_to_be_Corrected.html
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 15:08

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Woofer wrote:@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10083-most-damning-mccann-interviews#271237

This was mentioned by Doug D and me on 20th July.
Thanks NFWTD - you`re a whizz-kid on finding stuff !

Just found the bit where he is not commenting - its after a series of questions about the dogs` findings :-

"After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.

The dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, as well,
he says that he cannot explain this fact.

Regarding the signalling of cadaver odour in the vehicle that was rented in late May, license plate 49-DA-27,
he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.

Regarding the signalling of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle,
he says that he has no explanation for this fact.

When confronted with the fact that Madeleine’s DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle, and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations that had already been described before,
he says that he cannot explain.

When asked if on any occasion Madeleine was injured,
he says that he has no comments.

I agree with DougD, there is no reason why he couldn`t have answered honestly to the last question - why not just say `not as far as I know` ?
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Post by PeterMac 14.08.14 15:17

@Woofer wrote:
[/u]When asked if on any occasion Madeleine was injured, [/i]he says that he has no comments.
I agree with DougD, there is no reason why he couldn`t have answered honestly to the last question - why not just say `not as far as I know` ?

He had to shut the line of questioning down as soon as possible, and going "No comment" does exactly that.
"Not as far as I know" leaves it open to supplementaries, "Would your wife know, when was the last time" and so on.
And then - "did you observe any injury when you were bathing the children, did your wife, Payne or anyone else observe. . . . "
AND IF NOT WHY NOT ?

He had to stop it.
And was successful.
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 15:25

Thanks Peter.
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Post by Guest 14.08.14 17:05

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Here is a link to where you can see the message from Martin Smith.

http://pic.twitter.com/UCi6sOpTEQ
Here is an easier to read link.

http://www.madeleinedocumentary.com/page4.php
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Post by Cristobell 14.08.14 17:13

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Here is a link to where you can see the message from Martin Smith.

http://pic.twitter.com/UCi6sOpTEQ
Here is an easier to read link.

http://www.madeleinedocumentary.com/page4.php
Unequivocal.  And it could be read as a reply to Tony's research.  I'm surprised that he, or indeed those claiming there is a link between Martin Smith and Robert Murat, haven't responded.
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Post by Guest 14.08.14 17:14

It's early days yet, Cristobell!
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Post by nglfi 14.08.14 17:21

@Woofer wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Woofer wrote:@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had into een injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10083-most-damning-mccann-interviews#271237

This was mentioned by Doug D and me on 20th July.
Thanks NFWTD - you`re a whizz-kid on finding stuff !

Just found the bit where he is not commenting - its after a series of questions about the dogs` findings :-

"After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.

The dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, as well,
he says that he cannot explain this fact.

Regarding the signalling of cadaver odour in the vehicle that was rented in late May, license plate 49-DA-27,
he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.

Regarding the signalling of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle,
he says that he has no explanation for this fact.

When confronted with the fact that Madeleine’s DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle, and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations that had already been described before,
he says that he cannot explain.

When asked if on any occasion Madeleine was injured,
he says that he has no comments.

I agree with DougD, there is no reason why he couldn`t have answered honestly to the last question - why not just say `not as far as I know` ?
Thanks NFWTD. I didn't realise Gerry had been obtuse with all those questions. I find interesting the distinction between his 'no comment', and 'has no explanation for this fact'. He seems to answer 'no comment' to only two questions, the cadaver odour in the cupboard and behind the sofa, and whether Maddie had been injured. No comment suggests I know the answer but i'm not telling you, whilst 'having no explanation' seems to indicate a lie, as in he is trying to claim he genuinely doesn't know the answer. I wonder why this would be the case. Taking his.comments at face value and assuming them to be the truth, with a 'no comment' meaning i know the answer but i won't tell you, it could suggest that Kate had more responsibility than Gerry. It could suggest that Gerry knows Maddie was found dead in the flat, but it was Kate who disposed of the body so he would not be able to explain anything about the car since he wasn't there. Hmm. I'm now also thinking of the footprint that was found in the bumper of the scenic, which was a partial match for Kate's shoe.

although a caveat against this could be that it has been lost in translation, and this is simply paraphrasing all Gerry's 'no comments' into a range of responses
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Post by PeterMac 14.08.14 17:24

The message from Mr Smith is this -

PLEASE NOTE: We have been contacted by Martin Smith who is mentioned towards the end of this programme. Mr. Smith reported seeing a man carriying a child on the night in question. Mr Smith stated the following ...

Dear Mr. Hall,
I have just watched the 4 parts of your new film "Buried by Mainstream Media etc" which I found very interesting. I would like to point out a major inaccuracy near the end of part 4 of the film where it was stated that I was "friends with Robert Murat". This statement is untrue and I would like it corrected. I had come across Mr.Murat twice in the previous 12 months, had never been introduced to him and merely knew him by sight.

Yours sincerely,

Martin Smith.
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Post by aiyoyo 14.08.14 17:29

Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

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Post by PeterMac 14.08.14 18:26

@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.
Also full marks to Richard Hall for publishing it on the front page of the video publicity.
As with so many of us, we are looking for the facts, for the truth about what happened.
Testing hypotheses, and being willing to change our view as new evidence emerges.

(Unlike those who blindly follow what they have been told - whichever version that happens to be !)
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Post by Truthandjustice 14.08.14 18:31

@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 18:37

@Cristobell wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Here is a link to where you can see the message from Martin Smith.

http://pic.twitter.com/UCi6sOpTEQ
Here is an easier to read link.

http://www.madeleinedocumentary.com/page4.php
Unequivocal.  And it could be read as a reply to Tony's research.  I'm surprised that he, or indeed those claiming there is a link between Martin Smith and Robert Murat, haven't responded.

I doubt whether they want to go over and over it all again Cristobel.  One of them may be on holiday anyway.
Whatever - there is still no conclusion - no one knows what is the actual truth.  At least Richard Hall always publishes peoples` replies.  He was very balanced in his documentary, always portraying the other side.
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 18:42

@Truthandjustice wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.

It`s just his word though.
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Post by Truthandjustice 14.08.14 18:58

@Woofer wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.

It`s just his word though.
It is his word, no just about it.
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Post by Praiaaa 14.08.14 19:17

@Truthandjustice wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.

It`s just his word though.
It is his word, no just about it.

And very politely worded. Very different to the sort of oiky response we see from TM.
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Post by Guest 14.08.14 19:59

Marlie wrote:I'm pretty disappointed in P Brown's assessment of the documentary regarding Payne/Gasper and in particular when she says they are interesting but not proven factual.

I wouldn't find the Gasper statement interesting and I think it's an unfortunate phrase. KG was a friend of the McCanns and holidayed with them previously. I doubt she could ever have known that her statement would be published around the world and while I can't be sure DP ever took action against her can be reasonably confident that he didn't, otherwise the statement would have been retracted but it wasn't therefore to me it still stands. She went to the police because after Madeleine disappeared she felt that if DP had been present the police should be aware of what she knew. Whatever gestures DP made caused her to be deeply uncomfortable in his presence and gave her the impression that he accessed child pornography online. She states that it was usual to take turns bathing each others children and even though she had grave concerns about David bathing her daughter she didn't feel free to stop this - only to ensure her husband was present. So this means to me that the decision re the bathing was outside of her control. Given that the McCanns were in a similar setting with DP when Madeleine went missing I think it's very relevant. And given the photos that were released in 2010 I think it's even more relevant. Adding that the statement wasn't sent for almost 6 months making it even more disturbing. I often wonder if GA had been aware of the statement if his investigation would have moved in another direction. Then the other elephant in the room, why were the Paynes airbrushed from Crimewatch?

We've all been there with the rogatory statements trying to weed out the truth from the em, erms, you knows, sort of's etc. I think they well deserved a mention. Trying to extract a simple fact from T7 rogatories is a painstaking exercise and even when you isolate the relevant text it's usually qualified with something like "sort of" or "I think" or something similar. The documentary highlighted this very well as it did DP's discomfort with telling a lie yet his willingness to help his (nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in) friend. His creepy description of the freshly washed children and the blissful domestic scene is a story that needs to be told.

Excellent post Sherlock!  I remember a very long time ago expressing disgust at the very thought of a man bathing another parents child, I was hanged drawn and quartered for being of sick mind thinking such abominable thoughts.  My mind hasn't changed, it is not something I would even contemplate doing myself let alone condoning generally.  The very idea makes me shudder but perhaps I'm a bit out of date.

The issue is so often side tracked or completely ignored on the pretext that it is too sensitive to be mentioned but I disagree, after all it could be the very thing that leads to the truth.
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Post by Liz Eagles 14.08.14 20:02

Gollum wrote:
Marlie wrote:I'm pretty disappointed in P Brown's assessment of the documentary regarding Payne/Gasper and in particular when she says they are interesting but not proven factual.

I wouldn't find the Gasper statement interesting and I think it's an unfortunate phrase. KG was a friend of the McCanns and holidayed with them previously. I doubt she could ever have known that her statement would be published around the world and while I can't be sure DP ever took action against her can be reasonably confident that he didn't, otherwise the statement would have been retracted but it wasn't therefore to me it still stands. She went to the police because after Madeleine disappeared she felt that if DP had been present the police should be aware of what she knew. Whatever gestures DP made caused her to be deeply uncomfortable in his presence and gave her the impression that he accessed child pornography online. She states that it was usual to take turns bathing each others children and even though she had grave concerns about David bathing her daughter she didn't feel free to stop this - only to ensure her husband was present. So this means to me that the decision re the bathing was outside of her control. Given that the McCanns were in a similar setting with DP when Madeleine went missing I think it's very relevant. And given the photos that were released in 2010 I think it's even more relevant. Adding that the statement wasn't sent for almost 6 months making it even more disturbing. I often wonder if GA had been aware of the statement if his investigation would have moved in another direction. Then the other elephant in the room, why were the Paynes airbrushed from Crimewatch?

We've all been there with the rogatory statements trying to weed out the truth from the em, erms, you knows, sort of's etc. I think they well deserved a mention. Trying to extract a simple fact from T7 rogatories is a painstaking exercise and even when you isolate the relevant text it's usually qualified with something like "sort of" or "I think" or something similar. The documentary highlighted this very well as it did DP's discomfort with telling a lie yet his willingness to help his (nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in) friend. His creepy description of the freshly washed children and the blissful domestic scene is a story that needs to be told.

Excellent post Sherlock!  I remember a very long time ago expressing disgust at the very thought of a man bathing another parents child, I was hanged drawn and quartered for being of sick mind thinking such abominable thoughts.  My mind hasn't changed, it is not something I would even contemplate doing myself let alone condoning generally.  The very idea makes me shudder but perhaps I'm a bit out of date.

The issue is so often side tracked or completely ignored on the pretext that it is too sensitive to be mentioned but I disagree, after all it could be the very thing that leads to the truth.
I agree with you gollum and I don't think you're out of date.
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Post by petunia 14.08.14 20:12


  1. "Buried by Mainstream Media" - new film due soon: NOW OUT - Page 16 2VXuln6o_biggerHarry Blackwood ‏[ltr]@blamedandshamed[/ltr]  10m
    LISTEN UP. Interesting development in the Madeleine #McCann farce. A key witness has piped up with something very interesting. More soon

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Post by canada12 14.08.14 20:28

@petunia wrote:

  1. "Buried by Mainstream Media" - new film due soon: NOW OUT - Page 16 2VXuln6o_biggerHarry Blackwood ‏
    [ltr]@blamedandshamed[/ltr]

      10m
    LISTEN UP. Interesting development in the Madeleine #McCann farce. A key witness has piped up with something very interesting. More soon

 
Could be nothing more than the Smith response to the filmmaker that was published on his website.
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Post by Doug D 14.08.14 21:09

It is. He's confirmed it on his twitter feed.
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Post by XTC 14.08.14 21:42

@Truthandjustice wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.

It`s just his word though.
It is his word, no just about it.
That Mr Smith has said something is useful.

I hope he has seen the DVD's as he may learn about the shennanigins he and Robert Murat have been ( and may possibly still be?)
dragged into.

Like Robert Murat my only reservations are that it took 13 days for Mr Smith to report seeing the man and child and in the case of Robert Murat that whilst all the searchers on the night were running round calling and searching for Madeleine until 4am that he didn't hear anything
whilst in his mothers house and neither did his mother.

I don't know why on both counts.

Mr smith said he only met Robert Murat twice but if we contrast and compare on body shape alone ( the Smith's did not see the mans face despite what some people are saying I think ) RM looks nothing like the body shape of GM and he wears glasses. I read that he always has to wear glasses but whether that is true or not I don't know.

After watching Richard D Halls videos I think that the points put forward were very good and well linked together.

Some points I couldn't agree with or some like the DNA and FSS Reports were not discussed too deeply as in the end The Scenic and the cadaver scent and its implications were the reason why the investigation stalled until Rebelo added nothing and it was shelved.

Also The removal of Mr Amaral and the possible reasons why were not discussed much either.

The Gaspar statements are intriguing when connected with the Social worker ( can't remember her name ) and the fact that Mr Amaral was organising for the Smiths to come to Portugal to add flesh to their statements.

The connections re: Brian Kennedy ( Latium Holdings ) and the PI's was an eye opener too.

The thing that ran like Blackpool thorugh rock for me was many names and persons involved in this investigation come from Eire or Northern Ireland. Not sure what the link is but that's what struck me throughout the whole series.

A very interesting video and well put together.
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Post by Guest 14.08.14 22:15

aquila wrote:
Gollum wrote:
Marlie wrote:I'm pretty disappointed in P Brown's assessment of the documentary regarding Payne/Gasper and in particular when she says they are interesting but not proven factual.

I wouldn't find the Gasper statement interesting and I think it's an unfortunate phrase. KG was a friend of the McCanns and holidayed with them previously. I doubt she could ever have known that her statement would be published around the world and while I can't be sure DP ever took action against her can be reasonably confident that he didn't, otherwise the statement would have been retracted but it wasn't therefore to me it still stands. She went to the police because after Madeleine disappeared she felt that if DP had been present the police should be aware of what she knew. Whatever gestures DP made caused her to be deeply uncomfortable in his presence and gave her the impression that he accessed child pornography online. She states that it was usual to take turns bathing each others children and even though she had grave concerns about David bathing her daughter she didn't feel free to stop this - only to ensure her husband was present. So this means to me that the decision re the bathing was outside of her control. Given that the McCanns were in a similar setting with DP when Madeleine went missing I think it's very relevant. And given the photos that were released in 2010 I think it's even more relevant. Adding that the statement wasn't sent for almost 6 months making it even more disturbing. I often wonder if GA had been aware of the statement if his investigation would have moved in another direction. Then the other elephant in the room, why were the Paynes airbrushed from Crimewatch?

We've all been there with the rogatory statements trying to weed out the truth from the em, erms, you knows, sort of's etc. I think they well deserved a mention. Trying to extract a simple fact from T7 rogatories is a painstaking exercise and even when you isolate the relevant text it's usually qualified with something like "sort of" or "I think" or something similar. The documentary highlighted this very well as it did DP's discomfort with telling a lie yet his willingness to help his (nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in) friend. His creepy description of the freshly washed children and the blissful domestic scene is a story that needs to be told.

Excellent post Sherlock!  I remember a very long time ago expressing disgust at the very thought of a man bathing another parents child, I was hanged drawn and quartered for being of sick mind thinking such abominable thoughts.  My mind hasn't changed, it is not something I would even contemplate doing myself let alone condoning generally.  The very idea makes me shudder but perhaps I'm a bit out of date.

The issue is so often side tracked or completely ignored on the pretext that it is too sensitive to be mentioned but I disagree, after all it could be the very thing that leads to the truth.
I agree with you gollum and I don't think you're out of date.

Thank you aquila for those few kind words, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks it rather disgusting.

IMO, the subject is about the only plausible explanation for the apparent major cover up, especially taking into consideration the current exposure of such crimes at the core of the UK establishment.  Reason enough wouldn't you say?
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"Buried by Mainstream Media" - new film due soon: NOW OUT - Page 16 Empty Re: "Buried by Mainstream Media" - new film due soon: NOW OUT

Post by Guest 14.08.14 22:29

@Woofer wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Fascinating that he'd watched the videos.

Chanced it or has been referred to it I wonder?

Is he reading this forum I wonder too?

I assume Kevin is still here, therefore the Mcs must have been told of the videos existence.

Mr Smith clearly takes an interest I'm the case as I would if I were him. I would imagine if he reads this forum some of it might have been upsetting. I am glad he has had an opportunity to put the record straight.

It`s just his word though.

I'm inclined to agree with you Woofer, it seems strange to me that iirc, this is the only occasion Martin Smith has spoken out publicly to correct a claim relating to his position in the case.  Why, for example, didn't he defend his position when it was claimed by the Sunday Times insight team, that he colluded with Exton (late of Oakley International) with the e-fits publicised by Operation Grange?  Why hasn't he before now, tried to halt all the rumours questioning his credibility?

Could be something or nothing but I can see where you're coming from.  Wanting privacy is perfectly understandable but I think I would draw the line if someone was publicly making false allegations about me.
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