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Post by missbeetle on 14.08.14 11:23

@Angelique wrote:Clay Regazzoni

Many thanks for posting the interview with Tony and Richard Hall.

It was very good and gave me more information on the metres/yards battle, which I didn't know.


I've been thinking about - as Tony explained them - the human and cultural aspects of the old-style measures.

I still think of babies in pounds and ounces, and an inch is such a handy measurement.

Is anyone else familiar with the distance of one cigarette, though?

I enjoyed watching some more of Richard D. Hall - I'd love to be able to say 'laser' like he does.

Cheers and thanks to both Tony and Richard for their hard work.

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Post by aquila on 14.08.14 11:37

@missbeetle wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Clay Regazzoni

Many thanks for posting the interview with Tony and Richard Hall.

It was very good and gave me more information on the metres/yards battle, which I didn't know.


I've been thinking about - as Tony explained them - the human and cultural aspects of the old-style measures.

I still think of babies in pounds and ounces, and an inch is such a handy measurement.

Is anyone else familiar with the distance of one cigarette, though?

I enjoyed watching some more of Richard D. Hall - I'd love to be able to say 'laser' like he does.

Cheers and thanks to both Tony and Richard for their hard work.
Miss Beetle is taking the piss.
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Post by whatsupdoc on 14.08.14 11:55

@nomendelta wrote:Others will no doubt want to do this but I thought I'd reply to the numbered points by Pat Brown...my comments in blue.

1) I still strongly assert the McCanns should be the top suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.

It goes without saying that if one doubts the abduction story (bearing in mind the lack of any evidence to support it) then it is very hard to conceive of a situation where the McCanns do not know what happened to Maddie. If the abduction is, as many believe, fake then they MUST be complicit in whatever happened to Maddie.

2) I absolutely believe Maddie disappeared on May 3rd and not anytime earlier; the crime scene and what appears to be a cover-up hardly represents any kind of intelligent staging one might expect if there were more time to consider a better plan. I find the last photo to be completely irrelevant and since the crime scene indicates an accident that occurred in the flat, I see no grand conspiracy of pedophilia or involvement by any other adult in Maddie's demise.

Agree that it is hard to reconcile the mess of May 3rd with anything pre-planned but that does not necessarily mean that whatever happened had to have happened on that date, especially taking into account the weirdness of the last photo, the strange phone activity on the days preceeding May 3rd and the shiftiness over when Mrs Fenn heard Maddie crying.

3) I believe David Payne may have lied about seeing Maddie (something the McCanns might simply have felt necessary to prove an alibi, that Maddie were alive when they left for the restaurant and "the abduction" occurred whilst they were with others) or why he was at the flat but I do not find any reason to suspect his involvement in the crime.

So someone formerly close to the McCanns saying they thought he might have paedophile tendencies, a Social Worker finding his attitude "off" and thinking she recognised him, his total exclusion from the Crimewatch reconstruction...none of that sets off an alarm bell? Oh, and the very, very muddied waters of how long he visited the apartment for and the varying details of that story.


4) I do not find the Gaspar statement credible at all.

I wonder what in particular she finds not credible about it.


5) I find it most likely Gerry moved the body and moved the body alone and he is the only person who truly knows where Maddie is buried.

I don't think Kate wouldn't NOT know. Also, why cadaver scent on Kate's clothes but none on Gerry's? And why the cadaver scent in the car?


6) I believe the Smiths to have seen Gerry, mostly because the McCanns refused for so long to acknowledge that Smithman could be the abductor.

Well the Smith sighting is bizarre - it's pertinent that GA was taken off the case before Smith was brought over to make a statement. That said there are huge questions about that sighting and I find it bizarre that someone could find the Gaspar statements lacking in credibility but put so much store in a sighting where the person was only 60 to 80 percent certain of the ID.


7) I find it likely that Gerry does have some strong political connections that set off the initial support of him and Kate, but I believe the support later on is a matter of politics that has nothing to do with the McCanns. Sometimes, both in the media and in politics, tidal waves of specific actions have more to do with money, ratings, careers, and other issues than being actually connected to the original issue. The same may be true for Scotland Yard.

Gerry's connections are vague at best, at least from what we know. To get the level of support they got needed something special. A few political connections gets a bit of good press. It doesn't get someone of Clarence Mitchell's clout sprinting over to mop up your mess.

8) I still believe Scotland Yard will close the case down in the fall with an unprosecutable suspect or allude to one and allow the case to dwindle away. I do not believe the McCanns will ever be arrested or prosecuted. The Summer's book and the final Scotland Yard conclusion will wrap things up along with the civil trial and the case will slowly fade from public view.

I don't know what to make of the SY investigation. My hope is that the PJ are on the case and won't let the matter drop. I'd like to think Redwood is being clever and working within his brief and using that to slowly eliminate all other possibilities but that is, I admit, rather far-fetched. But then what isn't in this bizarre story?


I don't know either how Pat Brown came to some conclusions but my take...

1. Agreed

2.I still think there is a possibility that Madeleine died at the w/e and a substitute was used. If so, Gerry could have been returning the sub back to her parents when seen by the Smiths. The creche register indicates lots of
anomalies.

3.David Payne visit is dubious. I don't think it happened.

4.I think the Gaspar testimonies are true and important. Men bathing other people's children is also very odd. Where were the mothers?

5.I think they both know everything.

6.I think it was Gerry that Smiths saw but may have been carrying the sub back to her parents.

7.I think Gerry merely called on his Freemason brothers to help. I did read on Joana's blog that a Comment was made that Gerry, Tony B and Gordon B were all made 33 degree masons in July 2007. I've no other info re this. The help he received was one of the most striking things of this case. Despite all the obvious lies and losing a child, Kate has  been made an Ambassador and Gerry got a police award as gob-smacked officers watched in disbelief.

8.I think the govt might well try to hush the affair up in the new year with the General Election coming in May, not only because of the McCann case but with investigations discovering more about corruption as people surf the net. The police investigation as seen by the public has just been a token gesture, hunt the patsy, and huge waste of tax-payers money.
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Post by missbeetle on 14.08.14 12:23

@aquila wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Clay Regazzoni

Many thanks for posting the interview with Tony and Richard Hall.

It was very good and gave me more information on the metres/yards battle, which I didn't know.


I've been thinking about - as Tony explained them - the human and cultural aspects of the old-style measures.

I still think of babies in pounds and ounces, and an inch is such a handy measurement.

Is anyone else familiar with the distance of one cigarette, though?

I enjoyed watching some more of Richard D. Hall - I'd love to be able to say 'laser' like he does.

Cheers and thanks to both Tony and Richard for their hard work.
Miss Beetle is taking the piss.

Not at all.

I had not seen Tony 'in person' before, and he came across to me very much a gentleman.

Christobell, Nina and Woofer had spoken well of him - 'absolute gentleman', 'lovely bloke' -

- and I am pleased to say I agree. He writes and speaks so clearly, and is a determined campaigner.

(he's also got me thinking twice about evolution, but that's another story)

I have a lot of respect for Tony, and I would again like to thank him for his hard work.


Richard D. Hall is also someone whose views I will give credence to.

I can see he has put an awful lot of effort into making his 'Buried by Mainstream Media' film -

- and he is truly a good guy for waiving the copyrights so that this can be distributed widely.
 
His accent is one that I don't hear a lot of, so I find I have to listen hard - but I like it.

(I don't believe in aliens, but that is again another story)

I'm looking forward to watching more of his work on the McCann case - thank you again, Richard.


As regards their dress sense - Tony suits his suits, and Richard his long hair.

I liked Tony's rose-print curtains, too.

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Post by aquila on 14.08.14 12:27

@missbeetle wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:
@Angelique wrote:Clay Regazzoni

Many thanks for posting the interview with Tony and Richard Hall.

It was very good and gave me more information on the metres/yards battle, which I didn't know.


I've been thinking about - as Tony explained them - the human and cultural aspects of the old-style measures.

I still think of babies in pounds and ounces, and an inch is such a handy measurement.

Is anyone else familiar with the distance of one cigarette, though?

I enjoyed watching some more of Richard D. Hall - I'd love to be able to say 'laser' like he does.

Cheers and thanks to both Tony and Richard for their hard work.
Miss Beetle is taking the piss.

Not at all.

I had not seen Tony 'in person' before, and he came across to me very much a gentleman.

Christobell, Nina and Woofer had spoken well of him - 'absolute gentleman', 'lovely bloke' -

- and I am pleased to say I agree. He writes and speaks so clearly, and is a determined campaigner.

(he's also got me thinking twice about evolution, but that's another story)

I have a lot of respect for Tony, and I would again like to thank him for his hard work.


Richard D. Hall is also someone whose views I will give credence to.

I can see he has put an awful lot of effort into making his 'Buried by Mainstream Media' film -

- and he is truly a good guy for waiving the copyrights so that this can be distributed widely.
 
His accent is one that I don't hear a lot of, so I find I have to listen hard - but I like it.

(I don't believe in aliens, but that is again another story)

I'm looking forward to watching more of his work on the McCann case - thank you again, Richard.


As regards their dress sense - Tony suits his suits, and Richard his long hair.

I liked Tony's rose-print curtains, too.
Still taking the piss here Miss Beetle.

Oh, and why do you logon as 'hidden'?
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 12:30

Please can we call a halt here.

Many people do hide their online status for whatever reason, including Tony Bennett and Aiyoyo.
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Post by Nina on 14.08.14 12:51

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Please can we call a halt here.

Many people do hide their online status for whatever reason, including Tony Bennett and Aiyoyo.

How do you hide online status please?

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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 12:53

Go to your profile and then to preferences.
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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 12:56

@Nina wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Please can we call a halt here.

Many people do hide their online status for whatever reason, including Tony Bennett and Aiyoyo.

How do you hide online status please?

I haven't a clue how to hide it.
All I know is if I choose to read only without replying I may not log in to do that.
If I wish to reply then I have to log in.
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 12:59

Your status is showing as hidden, Aiyoyo. If you want to change this, just untick the box in the preferences section.
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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 13:00

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Please can we call a halt here.

Many people do hide their online status for whatever reason, including Tony Bennett and Aiyoyo.

Oh yeah, I just checked it, and yes I did select that.
Despite the selection I see myself listed as online whenever I am logged in.
So the function is apparently not working.
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 13:00

Other people can't see that you are online though.
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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 13:04

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Other people can't see that you are online though.

Hmmm what do you mean?

My name is among the rest online and people can't see it except me?
How does that work?
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Post by Cristobell on 14.08.14 13:07

I see Martin Smith has emailed Richard D. Hall to correct the inaccurate statement that he knew Robert Murat.  Good for him.  Sorry I can't c/p, but basically Mr. Smith has confirmed that he only knows RM by sight.
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 13:07

Aiyoyo, don't ask me to explain how it works! All I know is that other people can't see your name.

Nina: are you still here? Please could you confirm that you cannot see Aiyoyo's name?

Cristobell: where have you seen the e-mail?
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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 13:11

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Other people can't see that you are online though.

It should not matter one way or another which preference one chooses, it's personal choice.
But I have to say aquilla's point is valid.
Commenting on curtains and then assuming it to belong to TB is being personal.
It is unnecessary to draw attention to personal aspect of people's life.
It's intrusion of privacy.
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 13:12

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Aiyoyo, don't ask me to explain how it works! All I know is that other people can't see your name.

Nina: are you still here? Please could you confirm that you cannot see Aiyoyo's name?
Cristobell: where have you seen the e-mail?
Logged in to post that I cannot see Aiyoyo's name. 
Nor in the list nor right topside of the post.
Hope this helps. roses 
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Post by Cristobell on 14.08.14 13:14

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Aiyoyo, don't ask me to explain how it works! All I know is that other people can't see your name.

Nina: are you still here? Please could you confirm that you cannot see Aiyoyo's name?

Cristobell: where have you seen the e-mail?
It is on the front page of Video 4 NFWTD.  :)
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Post by Justformaddie on 14.08.14 13:14

@Cristobell wrote:I see Martin Smith has emailed Richard D. Hall to correct the inaccurate statement that he knew Robert Murat.  Good for him.  Sorry I can't c/p, but basically Mr. Smith has confirmed that he only knows RM by sight.
Good for him, wonder will we see any one else correcting him? Nah
IMO

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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 13:17

parapono wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Aiyoyo, don't ask me to explain how it works! All I know is that other people can't see your name.

Nina: are you still here? Please could you confirm that you cannot see Aiyoyo's name?
Cristobell: where have you seen the e-mail?
Logged in to post that I cannot see Aiyoyo's name. 
Nor in the list nor right topside of the post.
Hope this helps. roses 
parapono

Should I deselect it then if people like to see my name? big grin

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Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.14 13:20

@Cristobell wrote:Pat Brown has made a huge error in dismissing the witness evidence of the Gaspers.  Like other commentators, she does not have access to the investigation and is basing her conclusions on a couple of statements given 7 years ago.  I don't know if the Gaspers statements are relevant or not, but I think it is absurd for outside commentators to write off witnesses in this case when they know so little.

I wouldn't call it an error let alone quantify it.  
None of us has access to investigation.
 Every one of us, including Pat Brown, our take on things is based on the values we placed on the evidence.  It's interesting to hear her take on things from a professional crime profiler view point.
However, what I feel irrelevant is personal preference over choice of content as deemed appropriate or not based on one own's assumed value on it if one were to bear in mind the objective of the videos then anything and everything that is historical record but buried by MSM is good enough to be put out there.
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Post by Guest on 14.08.14 13:30

Here is a link to where you can see the message from Martin Smith.

http://pic.twitter.com/UCi6sOpTEQ
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Post by Cristobell on 14.08.14 13:32

@Justformaddie wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:I see Martin Smith has emailed Richard D. Hall to correct the inaccurate statement that he knew Robert Murat.  Good for him.  Sorry I can't c/p, but basically Mr. Smith has confirmed that he only knows RM by sight.
Good for him, wonder will we see any one else correcting him? Nah
IMO

Well Martin Smith has now clarified that he doesn't know Robert Murat.  Will that be accepted by those on here who believe he is covering for RM?
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Post by Justformaddie on 14.08.14 13:38

@Cristobell wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:I see Martin Smith has emailed Richard D. Hall to correct the inaccurate statement that he knew Robert Murat.  Good for him.  Sorry I can't c/p, but basically Mr. Smith has confirmed that he only knows RM by sight.
Good for him, wonder will we see any one else correcting him? Nah
IMO

Well Martin Smith has now clarified that he doesn't know Robert Murat.  Will that be accepted by those on here who believe he is covering for RM?
Probably not, but the email is pretty much to the point, just like he has been over the last seven years, wants no  attention and no media spotlight!  thumbup 
IMO

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Post by j.rob on 14.08.14 13:38

Great post whatsup. 

I don't know either how Pat Brown came to some conclusions but my take...

1. Agreed

Yes. They always were. Was Murat being made a suspect, given his strong police links (translator for police in Norfolk etc) a strategic/political move? Maybe buying time. Maybe putting the frighteners on someone/people? A warning shot or something? Or just muddying the waters. Murat's role is very intriguing. 

2.I still think there is a possibility that Madeleine died at the w/e and a substitute was used. If so, Gerry could have been returning the sub back to her parents when seen by the Smiths. The creche register indicates lots of 
anomalies.

I think that there is quite a lot of evidence that *something* happened to Madeleine earlier in the week. I also think that it is quite likely that other children may have been signed into the creche as substitutes. The obvious candidates, imo, being the Naylor child and friend called Madeleine, also Ella Payne who looks very like Madeleine. Possibly Jez Wilkin's daughter. If other adults are taking other people's children to the creche, it could provide an innocent explanation for the muddle of the creche sheets. The adults simply got the names muddled up. After all, they were all, as Bridget O'Donnell wrote: 'blonde, pink and pretty.'

3.David Payne visit is dubious. I don't think it happened.

Very strange, this one. Why incriminate himself in this way? Being the last person apart from the parents to claim to have seen Madeleine alive (Matt gets himself off the hook in this respect with his 9.30pm 'check' as he claims he didn't go into the room). In any event there are massive inconsistencies in his accounts. According to Kate in her book, David Payne merely 'pops his head round the patio door'. Yet in at least one statement, Payne gives a highly emotive and colourful description of how he saw all three MacCann children in their pajamas ready for bed and looking like angels early on Thursday evening. Huge red flag all this, imo. David Payne is certainly a central player. Matt and Russell have also implicated themselves, imo, with inconsistent witness statements and other 'red flags' in terms of what they have said/done.

4.I think the Gaspar testimonies are true and important. Men bathing other people's children is also very odd. Where were the mothers?

I don't understand why Pat Brown gives no credence to the Gasper testimonies. I think they are important. On their  own they obviously do not 'prove' anything but taken together with other potential red flags, they certainly could be smoke signals. I think it is odd for the men to 'take it in turns' to bathe other people's children. 

5.I think they both know everything.

I think Gerry and Payne (and other tapas apart from Fiona's mother) knew what had happened to Madeleine from the outset, although possibly once she had been 'taken away' they were not entirely in the picture in terms of places, people and so on. It was a bodge job ('the biggest cock-up in history' - Murat/'it's a disaster - GM). Kate I think may have been a bit more in the dark. The bruises that she writes about in her book on her hands, wrists and lower arms on Thursday morning suggest, to me, that she was being physically restrained either on Thursday evening or before which suggests to me she was highly conflicted over what had happened/was about to happen to Madeleine. Was she something of an ostrich in terms of the nature of GM and DP - and possibly other tapas members? Perhaps in denial as psychologically unable to process certain things?

6.I think it was Gerry that Smiths saw but may have been carrying the sub back to her parents.

The Smith sighting is such a mystery. They only came forward after Murat was made a suspect. They co-own a flat in the area so would know people in the local community. Who knows what kind of speculation there was after Madeleine's 'disappearance'? There certainly would have been theories and gossip. And the fact that Murat appears to have made a very last minute booking late at night on 30th April, arriving in the resort early on the morning of 1st May, I do believe? Being picked up at the airport by his mother I think. This suggests to me that *something* happened over the weekend or on Monday 30th April. I think there are a few possibilities for the Smith sighting, assuming the Smiths did see a man carrying a child (uncorroborated 'sightings' being such a feature of this case). 

1. It was Gerry carrying Madeleine. The abduction 'plan' had been botched. Shutters not 'jemmied' at 9.15pm. The time-lines had gone wrong. Gerry had to clean up the mess. (Jez Wilkins/Matt/Payne perhaps 'bailed out' of some role for whatever reason?) This was a desperate move but choices had run out.


2. It was Gerry carrying another child. Possible but again really risky. Why return the 'sub' child at such a critical time in the evening?  Why not have done this earlier? (The role of Jez and his pram at 9.15pm outside the Mc appartment has always intrigued me). So if it was this scenario then I believe it would be to do with a botched plan and possibly other people bailing out. 


3. It was someone who looked like Gerry carrying Madeleine. Again, this is such a risky option. Why risk it at such as key time in the evening? Again, the only reason I can think of would be a botched plan. Something went wrong. Someone panicked/changed tack. A Gerry-look alike carrying an ill/over-sedated Madeleine. Perhaps to try to get emergency help?


4. It was someone who looked like Gerry carrying a child that looked like Madeleine. The fact that no-one has come forward with an innocent explanation suggests that there is not an innocent explanation for this. So - was the person who looked like Gerry carrying a child who looked like Madeleine trying to implicate someone? The fact that TM have tried to 'morph' Tannerman into Smithman suggests that there is a desperate, imo (given that the descriptions are different and 45 minutes apart) need to 'sanitize' the Smith sighting. 

7.I think Gerry merely called on his Freemason brothers to help. I did read on Joana's blog that a Comment was made that Gerry, Tony B and Gordon B were all made 33 degree masons in July 2007. I've no other info re this. The help he received was one of the most striking things of this case. Despite all the obvious lies and losing a child, Kate has  been made an Ambassador and Gerry got a police award as gob-smacked officers watched in disbelief.

There are a lot of 'cults' operating in this case. A 'cult' looks after its own and is secretive - Freemasonry, Medicine,  ('cover-up' culture if things go wrong) Catholicism (secrecy of 'the confession'). Throw into the pot the certain deeply held beliefs and myths - professionals will tell the truth, middle class parents do not neglect their children, doctors would not harm anyone etc. I think it became a real-life Emperor's New Clothes story which grew out of control. I think the high level protection was to prevent a scandal and cover up sleaze. Plus protect reputations. And so on. Plus it was a good 'human interest' story to 'bury' other news.

8.I think the govt might well try to hush the affair up in the new year with the General Election coming in May, not only because of the McCann case but with investigations discovering more about corruption as people surf the net. The police investigation as seen by the public has just been a token gesture, hunt the patsy, and huge waste of tax-payers money.

I think the genie is out of the bottle and the case is now a major embarrassment. Can you imagine a senior BBC broadcaster announcing on primetime news: 'The McCanns are guilty. There was a major cover-up.'


Egg on so many faces - the Fund was a fraud and so on. Reputations in tatters. Not to mention the fact that it would become obvious that at least certain sections of the media had been complicit (Murdoch - you didn't do any favours to British journalism, did you?)


All opinions only.
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j.rob

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