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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Post by sallypelt 12.08.14 13:22

@espeland wrote:
but it's there for world to see

Well not quite ..... SY apparently don't see it. How it can take 28 detectives 3 years and £7million so far and NOT see it is beyond me. They have so many suspicious characters to work on. As has been said here before, we will probably never know what happened to Madeleine and neither will SY but that doesn't mean we'll all accept a 'case closed' as jusified.
 Of course SY are seeing it, and as we can read from the "whitewash" thread on here, people are divided whether it is or it isn't. With all the protection the McCann's and Co have had, it's not difficult to understand WHY, so it's easy to see why so many believe this is a whitewash. However, without going into detail, I am more on the side of it not being a whitewash, and believe that without a body and all the backing that the McCann's have, it's one hell of a case for SY etc. to bring to court. If this ever comes to court, it has to be more than watertight.  We know that without a body, these types of cases are difficult to bring to justice, at the best of times,  but with all the protection and the rich shady characters supporting the McCann's, I believe that this is why things are taking so long.

I may be wrong. It may well be a whitewash, and the establishment are doing all in its power to bury this sorry saga, but I don't think for a second that SY "aren't seeing it".
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Post by espeland 12.08.14 14:29


I may be wrong. It may well be a whitewash, and the establishment are doing all in its power to bury this sorry saga, but I don't think for a second that SY "aren't seeing it".

I have no view about it being a whitewash. As I said, deciding what happened to Madeleine may well be impossible for SY: I and many others (I believe, given the time that has elapsed) would be satisfied with a successful prosecution for a relatively low crime. I was trying to say that there are a large number of 'suspicious' persons - ranging from the Tapas9 through Clarrie and the PIs to Leicestershire police - for SY to interview and develop 'a watertight case' for eg fraud. I am assuming, of course, that OG's remit has been changed. I think most would accept a lower case, providing appropriate prison terms - and not just for Kate and Gerry - resulted.

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Post by mysterion 12.08.14 14:30

Victims telling lies: If my child had been abducted I would be meticulous about what I told the police. To tell them anything less could cost the child its life. I would also be furious with any "friends" that gave a conficting account for the same reason. It seems in this case T9 stuck together.
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Post by comperedna 12.08.14 15:14

Petermac's post at 10.57

That is one of the key reasons I think the Mccanns know what happened and are involved in Madeleine's disappearance in one way or other.
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Post by winjoy 13.08.14 13:39

Pat Brown has commented on Richard Hall's films. http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/my-review-of-richard-d-halls-buried-by.html

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Post by tasprin 13.08.14 13:47

@winjoy wrote:Pat Brown has commented on Richard Hall's films. http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.co.uk/


Pat Brown 13 August 2014
My Review of Richard D. Hall's "Buried by Mainstream Media: The True Story of Madeleine McCann"
"Buried by Mainstream Media" - new film due soon: NOW OUT - Page 14 True%2BStory%2BMaddie
There is a lot of excitement over Hall's new documentary about Madeleine McCann and deservedly so as this is the first film made about the case which actually explores the incredibly peculiar issues surrounding the case that make it such a mystery, issues which haven't anything to do with the actual facts of Maddie's disappearance. Finally, someone has cobbled together a very dramatic (and I mean this in an intellectual sense, not a human interest sense) reconstruction of the events that make this case astounding - the lies, the inconsistencies, the political connections and the overwhelming political support of the McCanns - point after point is driven home with good visuals and explanations that should leave any viewer with a clear understanding that the McCanns and their friends are hardly innocent bystanders and that they had unprecedented help from high places that is absolutely astounding. I thank Mr. Hall for getting this documentary out to the public and commend him for his fine work. Certainly, this documentary, Buried by Mainstream Media: The True Story of Madeleine McCann contains a lot more truth and depth than we can expect from Anthony Summer's book, Looking for Madeleine, coming out in the UK in September.

Having viewed this excellent documentary, where do I stand on its content and the effect it will have on the case?

Sadly, I think this work will be watched in its entirety mostly by those who already question the McCanns. Summer's "approved" book will get the big publicity and mass media will ignore the hell out of Hall's documentary. Yes, folks will do their best to pump it on Facebook and Twitter but compared to large publicity machines of MSM, it will be a drop in the bucket. Having said that, I am still glad this documentary is out in the public domain, but I believe, like my book and others' sites and videos attempting to bring the facts to light, it will be for posterity, not for present day influence.

As to content of the documentary, I really liked the way Mr. Hall brought up inconsistency after inconsistency, lie after lie, bizarre political action after bizarre political action. I think this methodology was strong in truly pointing out why Gonçalo Amaral doubted the McCanns and why there is something not right in the UK and Portugal that allowed the McCanns to abscond and get away with their criminal behavior. I especially loved the third segment which focused on the private detective agencies...a true eye opener.

I would have rather Mr. Hall left out some of the second part content about Payne and the Gaspars because this was not so much about the McCanns' inconsistencies but a confused muddle of Payne's statements and the Gaspar statement which. while interesting. is not proven factual. I would have liked to seen more about the McCanns ignoring the Smith sighting and something about the Scotland Yard involvement. However, the segment on the dogs was particularly strong and anyone watching that should certainly wonder about the McCanns involvement in their daughter's disappearance.

Having watched the documentary, I dd come away with some thoughts unchanged and some modified. Here is where I stand:

1) I still strongly assert the McCanns should be the top suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
2) I absolutely believe Maddie disappeared on May 3rd and not anytime earlier; the crime scene and what appears to be a cover-up hardly represents any kind of intelligent staging one might expect if there were more time to consider a better plan. I find the last photo to be completely irrelevant and since the crime scene indicates an accident that occurred in the flat, I see no grand conspiracy of pedophilia or involvement by any other adult in Maddie's demise.
3) I believe David Payne may have lied about seeing Maddie (something the McCanns might simply have felt necessary to prove an alibi, that Maddie were alive when they left for the restaurant and "the abduction" occurred whilst they were with others) or why he was at the flat but I do not find any reason to suspect his involvement in the crime.
4) I do not find the Gaspar statement credible at all.
5) I find it most likely Gerry moved the body and moved the body alone and he is the only person who truly knows where Maddie is buried.
6) I believe the Smiths to have seen Gerry, mostly because the McCanns refused for so long to acknowledge that Smithman could be the abductor.
7) I find it likely that Gerry does have some strong political connections that set off the initial support of him and Kate, but I believe the support later on is a matter of politics that has nothing to do with the McCanns. Sometimes, both in the media and in politics, tidal waves of specific actions have more to do with money, ratings, careers, and other issues than being actually connected to the original issue. The same may be true for Scotland Yard.
8) I still believe Scotland Yard will close the case down in the fall with an unprosecutable suspect or allude to one and allow the case to dwindle away. I do not believe the McCanns will ever be arrested or prosecuted. The Summer's book and the final Scotland Yard conclusion will wrap things up along with the civil trial and the case will slowly fade from public view.

Again, if I am wrong about the outcome, I will be happy. If I am right, I am still happy that so many people made an effort to find the truth and keep the facts out there; who knows what effect these efforts will have on future investigations and, maybe one day, years from now, the truth will finally come out.

Criminal Profiler Pat Brown
August 13, 2014
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Post by espeland 13.08.14 14:04

winjoy wrote:Pat Brown has commented on Richard Hall's films. http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.co.uk/

Quite a reasonable review, but I disagree with her prediction: as I've said before, the McCanns and many of the others are obvious candidates for fraud charges - if charges are brought against the McCanns and they can be held incommunicado, it could well be that one of the others (not necessarily from the T7) will crumble and let more out.

Meanwhile, it's encouraging that no-one appears to be pursuing Richard so far.

Pat doesn't put much hope on the videos becoming well known. To an extent, that's up to us.

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Post by whatsupdoc 13.08.14 15:09

Pat Brown certainly has her finger on the pulse and has no difficulty spotting all the lies and deceit by the McCanns, tapas 7 and their followers. Another excellent blog. I've tweeted the url btw.

Re the dvds, I've watched many parts of them and liked the presentation of FACTS.

I didn't know about the shutters on the doors which was a whole can of worms body-swerved by the mccanns and tapas7 AFAIK. The fact that the window had 1 sliding half also showed that it only left about 15" to get through, by my reckoning.

I think the dvds were for people who hadn't been following the case on a forum but as I have just stated it did have new material for me so one can hardly say it got boring or laboured on a topic if one has been following the case for 7 years as I have. How anyone can say the dvds left out this and that is unbelieveable when we have had 7 years of lies, deceit and fairy stories to contend with. There is scope to fill many more dvds but nobody should knock RD Hall for not getting 7 years worth of material into a few dvds. Well done Richard for an honest presentation which was copyright-free and free to watch and d/l.
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Post by nglfi 13.08.14 17:21

I'm just watching part 3 of the DVD now. I had no idea just how involved Metodo 3 was in setting up false sightings and information and then leaking it to the press, specifically Marcos Correia's fantasies about Madeleine in the lake. I always had an awareness that people would obviously make up stories to make money, but Richard Hall has really honed in on the exact mechanism that made it work and made it so much clearer to me. It is incredibly sinister. To think that TM were paying Metodo to come up with phony sightings, using public money is just awful. It makes me wonder how it is at all possible that they haven't been arrested yet. I'm thinking if they ever are charged they would claim that Metodo did it entirely off their own initiative in order to keep receiving money from the McCanns, and they knew nothing about it. How would the police prove that TM were aware of exactly what was happening? I hope they can and will.
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Post by Guest 13.08.14 19:53

I'm pretty disappointed in P Brown's assessment of the documentary regarding Payne/Gasper and in particular when she says they are interesting but not proven factual.

I wouldn't find the Gasper statement interesting and I think it's an unfortunate phrase. KG was a friend of the McCanns and holidayed with them previously. I doubt she could ever have known that her statement would be published around the world and while I can't be sure DP ever took action against her can be reasonably confident that he didn't, otherwise the statement would have been retracted but it wasn't therefore to me it still stands. She went to the police because after Madeleine disappeared she felt that if DP had been present the police should be aware of what she knew. Whatever gestures DP made caused her to be deeply uncomfortable in his presence and gave her the impression that he accessed child pornography online. She states that it was usual to take turns bathing each others children and even though she had grave concerns about David bathing her daughter she didn't feel free to stop this - only to ensure her husband was present. So this means to me that the decision re the bathing was outside of her control. Given that the McCanns were in a similar setting with DP when Madeleine went missing I think it's very relevant. And given the photos that were released in 2010 I think it's even more relevant. Adding that the statement wasn't sent for almost 6 months making it even more disturbing. I often wonder if GA had been aware of the statement if his investigation would have moved in another direction. Then the other elephant in the room, why were the Paynes airbrushed from Crimewatch?

We've all been there with the rogatory statements trying to weed out the truth from the em, erms, you knows, sort of's etc. I think they well deserved a mention. Trying to extract a simple fact from T7 rogatories is a painstaking exercise and even when you isolate the relevant text it's usually qualified with something like "sort of" or "I think" or something similar. The documentary highlighted this very well as it did DP's discomfort with telling a lie yet his willingness to help his (nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in) friend. His creepy description of the freshly washed children and the blissful domestic scene is a story that needs to be told.
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Post by Liz Eagles 13.08.14 21:48

I'm watching Richard Hall's production and trying to look through the eyes of someone who knows nothing about the case other than consuming what the UK media have written. That's the whole point as I understand it.

I have absolutely no criticism of Richard Hall's production other than he speaks too quickly. What he says I find unbiased and factual.
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Post by Guest 13.08.14 22:06

aquila wrote:I'm watching Richard Hall's production and trying to look through the eyes of someone who knows nothing about the case other than consuming what the UK media have written. That's the whole point as I understand it.

I have absolutely no criticism of Richard Hall's production other than he speaks too quickly. What he says I find unbiased and factual.

The litmus test for me will be when my parents watch it.

Incidentally there is a very interesting film on Youtube of Richard Hall interviewing our own Mr. Bennett - albeit it doesn't cover anything McCann related.



(A word of warning! I normally watch Youtube videos in bed, on my phone. However - and no criticism of the content intended here, as I found it very interesting - Tony has such a soothing voice that I fell asleep repeatedly! I think it took four or five nights before I'd seen the thing in its entirety. So I'm not sure if there were any subliminal messages in it or if I was in fact being hypnotised - but if I'm caught trying to murder Herman van Rompuy with my bare hands then you will know what's happened.....)
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Post by nomendelta 13.08.14 23:27

Others will no doubt want to do this but I thought I'd reply to the numbered points by Pat Brown...my comments in blue.

1) I still strongly assert the McCanns should be the top suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.

It goes without saying that if one doubts the abduction story (bearing in mind the lack of any evidence to support it) then it is very hard to conceive of a situation where the McCanns do not know what happened to Maddie. If the abduction is, as many believe, fake then they MUST be complicit in whatever happened to Maddie.

2) I absolutely believe Maddie disappeared on May 3rd and not anytime earlier; the crime scene and what appears to be a cover-up hardly represents any kind of intelligent staging one might expect if there were more time to consider a better plan. I find the last photo to be completely irrelevant and since the crime scene indicates an accident that occurred in the flat, I see no grand conspiracy of pedophilia or involvement by any other adult in Maddie's demise.

Agree that it is hard to reconcile the mess of May 3rd with anything pre-planned but that does not necessarily mean that whatever happened had to have happened on that date, especially taking into account the weirdness of the last photo, the strange phone activity on the days preceeding May 3rd and the shiftiness over when Mrs Fenn heard Maddie crying.

3) I believe David Payne may have lied about seeing Maddie (something the McCanns might simply have felt necessary to prove an alibi, that Maddie were alive when they left for the restaurant and "the abduction" occurred whilst they were with others) or why he was at the flat but I do not find any reason to suspect his involvement in the crime.

So someone formerly close to the McCanns saying they thought he might have paedophile tendencies, a Social Worker finding his attitude "off" and thinking she recognised him, his total exclusion from the Crimewatch reconstruction...none of that sets off an alarm bell? Oh, and the very, very muddied waters of how long he visited the apartment for and the varying details of that story.


4) I do not find the Gaspar statement credible at all.

I wonder what in particular she finds not credible about it.


5) I find it most likely Gerry moved the body and moved the body alone and he is the only person who truly knows where Maddie is buried.

I don't think Kate wouldn't NOT know. Also, why cadaver scent on Kate's clothes but none on Gerry's? And why the cadaver scent in the car?


6) I believe the Smiths to have seen Gerry, mostly because the McCanns refused for so long to acknowledge that Smithman could be the abductor.

Well the Smith sighting is bizarre - it's pertinent that GA was taken off the case before Smith was brought over to make a statement. That said there are huge questions about that sighting and I find it bizarre that someone could find the Gaspar statements lacking in credibility but put so much store in a sighting where the person was only 60 to 80 percent certain of the ID.


7) I find it likely that Gerry does have some strong political connections that set off the initial support of him and Kate, but I believe the support later on is a matter of politics that has nothing to do with the McCanns. Sometimes, both in the media and in politics, tidal waves of specific actions have more to do with money, ratings, careers, and other issues than being actually connected to the original issue. The same may be true for Scotland Yard.

Gerry's connections are vague at best, at least from what we know. To get the level of support they got needed something special. A few political connections gets a bit of good press. It doesn't get someone of Clarence Mitchell's clout sprinting over to mop up your mess.

8) I still believe Scotland Yard will close the case down in the fall with an unprosecutable suspect or allude to one and allow the case to dwindle away. I do not believe the McCanns will ever be arrested or prosecuted. The Summer's book and the final Scotland Yard conclusion will wrap things up along with the civil trial and the case will slowly fade from public view.

I don't know what to make of the SY investigation. My hope is that the PJ are on the case and won't let the matter drop. I'd like to think Redwood is being clever and working within his brief and using that to slowly eliminate all other possibilities but that is, I admit, rather far-fetched. But then what isn't in this bizarre story?
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Post by Woofer 13.08.14 23:58

I agree nomendelta, especially :-

"Gerry's connections are vague at best, at least from what we know. To get the level of support they got needed something special. A few political connections gets a bit of good press. It doesn't get someone of Clarence Mitchell's clout sprinting over to mop up your mess."

Yes, no matter how friendly they were with these supposed high level connections, none of them would have got involved to the extent they did if there hadn`t been something that needed covering up.
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Post by nglfi 14.08.14 5:45

Also agreed Nomendelta, particularly number 5. Kate knows exactly what happened.  Her explanation for cadaver scent on her clothes is ridiculous and has never been substantiated. I am very surprised Pat Brown is of this opinion.  It's very relevant that Kate was the one who refused to answer questions,  not Gerry, although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. To me they both display huge red flags with regards to lying. Their body language and the things they both slip up with make it entirely clear they both know what happened.
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 8:31

@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin
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Post by nglfi 14.08.14 8:55

@Woofer wrote:@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin
Sorry I should have been  clearer - I think it was on disc 3 where the rogatory and initial interviews were analysed, and Richard Hall said Gerry's response to the police in his initial interview was no comment to this particular question, although he answered others. I am at work at the moment so i can't access videos, but i will try to find the exact bit where that is mentioned and post later :)
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Post by Woofer 14.08.14 9:01

Thanks nglfi.  Don`t worry - I`m sure someone else will confirm or I`ll have a look myself on Youtube (I`ve lent my own copy out).
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Post by aiyoyo 14.08.14 9:15

I would have rather Mr. Hall left out some of the second part content about Payne and the Gaspars because this was not so much about the McCanns' inconsistencies but a confused muddle of Payne's statements and the Gaspar statement which. while interesting. is not proven factual. I would have liked to seen more about the McCanns ignoring the Smith sighting and something about the Scotland Yard involvement.

Having watched the documentary, I dd come away with some thoughts unchanged and some modified. Here is where I stand:

2) I absolutely believe Maddie disappeared on May 3rd and not anytime earlier; the crime scene and what appears to be a cover-up hardly represents any kind of intelligent staging one might expect if there were more time to consider a better plan. I find the last photo to be completely irrelevant and since the crime scene indicates an accident that occurred in the flat, I see no grand conspiracy of pedophilia or involvement by any other adult in Maddie's demise.

3) I believe David Payne may have lied about seeing Maddie (something the McCanns might simply have felt necessary to prove an alibi, that Maddie were alive when they left for the restaurant and "the abduction" occurred whilst they were with others) or why he was at the flat but I do not find any reason to suspect his involvement in the crime.

I'm afraid Pat Brown has lost it, she contradicts herself there.

The inclusion of the content of Payne is relevant, as is the inclusion of Gaspars.

She believed that DP may have lied to provide Mcs a false alibi (that Maddie was well and alive), is precisely why the inclusion is relevant because the lie raises question why a false alibi was needed.

Gaspars aspect is more than just about the paedophile angle, it goes beyond that.  
Even say if the UK police had done the necessary checks and ruled this angle out of the equation, it is not within their rightful proprietary to deal with this behind the back of lead investigators and to hold back witnesses statements from lead investigators.
The data should have been forwarded to PJ  in good and proper  useful time as every piece of info received by investigators affects their decision making on going forward direction.  The reason for the delay action needs to be explained :
Was it just an administrative blunder?
Was there an internal politicking among UK police departments/among hierarchy levels/outside third party influence that caused the delay?
Or simply, what was the reason behind the suppression of witnesses statements for 5 months?  

If proven factual must be basis for inclusion there will be hardly anything left for inclusion.
Smith's sighting (which PB believed the man to be Gerry), is not proven factual either, yet she would rather preferred to see more made of this sighting.  Her reasoning for inclusion is self defeating.
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Post by juliet 14.08.14 9:25

Pat Brown describes the Hall videos as " cobbled together". Perhaps she doesn't quite understand what the phrase means as Hall's work is meticulous. Pat's own theories become more simplistic - and unrealistic - by the day.
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Post by Guest 14.08.14 9:44

@Woofer wrote:@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10083-most-damning-mccann-interviews#271237

This was mentioned by Doug D and me on 20th July.
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Post by aiyoyo 14.08.14 9:45

The purpose of the videos Richard Hall states is to expose data buried by the MSM and to expose those who are controlling MSM.

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Post by Guest 14.08.14 10:00

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@Woofer wrote:@ nglfi  - "although as I learnt in the documentary he said no comment to whether Madeleine had been injured. "

I missed that bit nglfi; did he really say `no comment` to someone who asked if she had been injured ?

Or is my brain not quite engaged yet this morning  big grin

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10083-most-damning-mccann-interviews#271237

This was mentioned by Doug D and me on 20th July.
Yes in the arguido interviews KM only answers one question. And GM answers all his except the question about Madeleine being injured:

"When asked if on any occasion Madeleine was injured, he says that he has no comments."

www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta3
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Post by Cristobell 14.08.14 10:17

Pat Brown has made a huge error in dismissing the witness evidence of the Gaspers.  Like other commentators, she does not have access to the investigation and is basing her conclusions on a couple of statements given 7 years ago.  I don't know if the Gaspers statements are relevant or not, but I think it is absurd for outside commentators to write off witnesses in this case when they know so little.
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Post by Angelique 14.08.14 11:08

Clay Regazzoni

Many thanks for posting the interview with Tony and Richard Hall.

It was very good and gave me more information on the metres/yards battle, which I didn't know.

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