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The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 1:59

Please excuse my typos guys, my hands are a bit clumsy due to a neuro issue. I will try my best to check all way through before sending but plse forgive any typos that slip through the missy typo butterfly net! Wink
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 2:09

@HelenMeg that is what I fear most in this case tbh...,,"if the Government don't want it to be exposed, then it won't be exposed" Sad
But to be honest I do not see this just going away...What I mean is, public perception of the Mccans is different today than in 2007 in my opinion. I mean, look at us all here, all reading up and discussing the case...., so that being said, can this really be swept under the rug?? Even if SY ends up finding a burglar type patsy, the public are starting to inform themselves, as we are...,& I honestly believe all the info that is available on the web now, actual FACTUAL info, with EVIDENCE (pj files/mccan files/discussion forums such as this one. Communities of people informing themselves & discussing their opinion having read the details.....I believe those who question this case will grow in number.....fb grouos like HiDeHo's are great for that in my opinion, that is where I have this forum :)
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 2:14

@Rooster the Gaspar statements, & what they contained certainly, in my mind, put more questions forward than it did answers....DP and the inappropriate gestures which apparently were understood by Gaspars to pertain to Madelaine. I have always struggled to contemplate what sort of father & indeed what sort of man, would sit and allow his friend to make such vile & highly inappropriate, to put it mildly, 'jokes'. Yuk.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 2:46

@MisMar I totally agree, the discrepancies & changes to fundamental details (entering by front door with key, then changing to patio door/the infamous "jemmied shutter" & tampered with window....yet forensics found this to be untrue, impossible infact, as shutters could not be opened and kept open from outside & silt was undisturbed, as was the bed which any abductor would have had to step on to climb through window(watched a documentary where detectives tried the hypothesis & found it not be to possible without an acomplice outside window, but abductor still would have had to step on bed to lift the child through the window, Not feasible realistically is it? This investigation is costing millions, I read travel alone had cost 88 000 so far, apologies I forget the source of this. Regardless millions have been spent, & chances are more will be spent before this charade, whoops, I mean investigation is over, & to be honest I cannot see how SY can ignore these glaring discrepancies.... At the very least it would be reasonable to expect that both parents and their tapas cronies are reinterviewed & their inconsistancies delved into by questioning....
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 4:56

@waiting for justice, hello there :) so glad I not the only newbie!

Yes, how is it possible SY can overlook these discrepancies ?? Not small "5 minute difference inconsistencies" which kate assures us British police told them was natural in witness statements" No these are far bigger discrepancies than a 5 min time difference between 9 peoples accounts of 1 evening....There was, early on, major changes (entering by front locked door, changed to entering by unlocked patio door), & those magical 'jemmied' shutters.....reported to media by relatives of G&K, who were told about the shutters on that fateful night by K&G themselves in phone calls. Phone calls that took place when searching should have been 1 & only prior7ty, apologies, I digress....Magical shutters.....which showed no sign of force & only fingerprints were those of K herself. Hmmmm. My personal opinion only .....
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 5:13

@suspicious mind hey, great point....K says patio unlocked for fire/madi to wake & come find them !!!!! Yep, still shocks me type it, but yet REFUSED FROM VERY START TO CONTEMPLATE MADI HAD AWOKEN & WANDERED FROM APARTMENT!!! Aaarrrggghhhh. Omg, this couple make me want to scream! *lets out a blood curdling cyber yell*
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 5:16

@Hicks ......really???? Caniving Clarence in PDL eatery with the Mc's on 3rd?????, Seriously Hicks?? Wow, I never read that before.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 5:28

@PeterMac hey Peter, I do see your point, however, what about Mrs Fenn who stated child cried for up to 70 mins on a previous evening??? & as I learnt from Suzy today, Mrs Fenn stated she heard the couple return through the patio door, at which point seemingly the crying ceased.
Peter I too, have real issues fathoming why a group of educated people would leave their children alone in a holiday apartment whilst they wined & dined as an adult only party of 9:/ With or without a DP 'baby monitor' WHY would 9 supposedly responsible adults behave in such a recklass & selfish manner?? "Well it was our holiday too" as K tells us. OMG.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 5:53

@dentdelion,..... Crazy, bizarre Mccans.....if fire had broken out.....they were not close enough to take immediate action....the action you would take as parent, to evacuate ur childen from building, they were simply not on hand to do ... By time smoke billowed from their balcony, it would be too late for the childen one would imagine. As for their other reason 'so Madelaine could come & find us", but as has been pointed out in thread already, this makes the whole 'no way Madelaine could have wandered out' which Mccans were so certain of from the moment of her disappearance all the more bizarre....."They've taken her' What a very odd utterance upon finding your little girl missing from her bed, why not "omg, where is she?? Has she wandered out?? etc" Then for K to sit on Madelaines bed as locals & tourists alike searched through the night......For me, the non searching, speaks louder than the Mc's official "no evidence Madelaine has come to any harm" line......
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 8:31

@LittleMissy wrote:@PeterMac hey Peter, I do see your point, however, what about Mrs Fenn who stated child cried for up to 70 mins on a previous evening??? & as I learnt from Suzy today, Mrs Fenn stated she heard the couple return through the patio door, at which point seemingly the crying ceased.
Peter I too, have real issues fathoming why a group of educated people would leave their children alone in a holiday apartment whilst they wined & dined as an adult only party of 9:/ With or without a DP 'baby monitor' WHY would 9 supposedly responsible adults behave in such a recklass & selfish manner?? "Well it was our holiday too" as K tells us. OMG.
Hi Missy, what Mrs Fenn said she heard was the crying stopping when the patio doors were opened.
Not when she heard the couple return. That is an assumption. She does not mention either seeing or hearing anyone coming in through the doors.
Equally the crying could have stopped when someone exited through the patio doors.
And in fact if do do not go along with the neglect story and believe the patio doors were locked from the inside until the 3rd, then it becomes more likely that the crying stopped when someone left via the patio doors.
And for Mrs Fenn to have been able to hear the patio doors being opened, it is my assumption that the crying stopped before they were opened.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 8:53

@LittleMissy wrote:I mean, telling relatives the shutters had been jemmied, the family then feeding it to media.....

We don't actually know that they did tell them exactly that.

All we know is what family members told the media which could have been their assumption/interpretation of what they heard from Gerry.

Gerry could have said "broken in to" which in turn became "jemmied". We all paraphrase to some extent when retelling stories.

He could also have just said the window was open and the family member assumed it had to have been forced (because who would leave the kids in an unlocked apartment!), we don't know.

There are at least two valid options:
1) Gerry actually said it was "jemmied".
2) The family member interpreted/assumed it was "jemmied".

Until you cross-examine them we won't know.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Miraflores on 16.07.14 11:07

I think that Gerry did phone and use the word 'jemmied'. As far as I remember, the story was reported both from Liverpool and Glasgow by two or three different people.  I think it's highly unlikely that they would all translate 'broken into' as 'jemmied'. 'Shutters smashed' would be just as likely a translation.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Hicks on 16.07.14 11:22

@LittleMissy wrote:@Hicks ......really???? Caniving Clarence in PDL eatery with the Mc's on 3rd?????, Seriously Hicks?? Wow, I never read that before.
This link is only gossip and should be taken as such


https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070930022406AApsJu8

Still, it is an interesting thought and could explain the connections. Swinging comes into mind. Look at the last post by little weed, answered 7 years ago. I like to read posts from around that time as a lot of the truth has now disappeared into cyberspace for eternity.

IF there was a cover up....IF Madeleine met her fate earlier than the 3rd May (which I believe ) wouldn't it make sense for the cover up to be put in place immediately? CM being there in PDL on the 3rd makes good sense to me.

When I get home I will try to find more relevant info.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by j.rob on 16.07.14 11:56

@BlueBag wrote:
@SuspiciousMinds wrote:If the McCanns thought that Madeleine was capable of escaping and/or rescuing her siblings in the event of a fire, or to go looking for her parents if she wanted to, then their utter refusal to even contemplate the idea that she might have wandered off becomes even more inexplicable.

An absolutely brilliant point.
Yes. Very good point. As is so often the case the McCann's themselves provide the best evidence against themselves. A bit like saying there was minimal to no risk of someone stealing a child ( both Kate and Gerry) which is why they felt comfortable leaving all three children without a babysitter every evening. 

And yet, the moment it is 'discovered' that Madeleine is no longer in the apartment, the only possible explanation is the very thing that neither parent thought there was any risk of.

Hmmm....

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 12:09

@Miraflores wrote:I think that Gerry did phone and use the word 'jemmied'. As far as I remember, the story was reported both from Liverpool and Glasgow by two or three different people.  I think it's highly unlikely that they would all translate 'broken into' as 'jemmied'. 'Shutters smashed' would be just as likely a translation.

I'd like to see the original sources, it could have been first, second or third hand passing on or the Liverpool and Glasgow people also rang each other.

Like I said we'll never know for sure until they are pinned down with serious questioning.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by tigger on 16.07.14 12:18

@BlueBag wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:I think that Gerry did phone and use the word 'jemmied'. As far as I remember, the story was reported both from Liverpool and Glasgow by two or three different people.  I think it's highly unlikely that they would all translate 'broken into' as 'jemmied'. 'Shutters smashed' would be just as likely a translation.

I'd like to see the original sources, it could have been first, second or third hand passing on or the Liverpool and Glasgow people also rang each other.

Like I said we'll never know for sure until they are pinned down with serious questioning.

PeterMac has postedon this matter, including the uncanny word-perfect , identical phrases.

Perhaps you could use the search facility (as Clayhas explained in the topic on search facility) with - this is just a suggestion ',jimmied shutters' which imo should be 'jemmied' - and find out for yourself.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 12:20

@BlueBag wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:I think that Gerry did phone and use the word 'jemmied'. As far as I remember, the story was reported both from Liverpool and Glasgow by two or three different people.  I think it's highly unlikely that they would all translate 'broken into' as 'jemmied'. 'Shutters smashed' would be just as likely a translation.

I'd like to see the original sources, it could have been first, second or third hand passing on or the Liverpool and Glasgow people also rang each other.

Like I said we'll never know for sure until they are pinned down with serious questioning.

I found them.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html

The "jemmied" seems to come from the Glasgow faction.

"Forced open" is from the Liverpool faction.

"Jemmied" could have become the word after they all started talking to each other in Glasgow.    

I think at least they DID tell friends and family the windows had been forced open.. but they could be "well they're open so they must have been forced" kind of thing without necessarily having any physical tool marks (like a jemmy).
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 12:29

@Justformaddie wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:I think that Gerry did phone and use the word 'jemmied'. As far as I remember, the story was reported both from Liverpool and Glasgow by two or three different people.  I think it's highly unlikely that they would all translate 'broken into' as 'jemmied'. 'Shutters smashed' would be just as likely a translation.

I'd like to see the original sources, it could have been first, second or third hand passing on or the Liverpool and Glasgow people also rang each other.

Like I said we'll never know for sure until they are pinned down with serious questioning.
If you go to mccann files you can read the first calls to the uk from k&g word for word. The words jemmied and smashed were said.

I know.

But the point is that the words were always second hand and there is no way of currently knowing how they came to be used. It could well have been Gerry or it could have taken on a life of their own once the family started talking among themselves and "forced open" became another persons "jemmied" then it did the rounds.

There isn't any certainty until they are pinned down.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Justformaddie on 16.07.14 12:35

Km told trish the shutters were jemmied in the phone call. It's the first reactions so IMO I don't think it's the result of say, Chinese whispers.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 12:43

@Justformaddie wrote:Km told trish the shutters were jemmied in the phone call. It's the first reactions so IMO I don't think it's the result of say, Chinese whispers.

If you read Trish's quote, she's not quoting Kate.

This is interesting from Jon Corner.


He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."


There is NO DOUBT that their first story was that the apartment was locked. Jon Corner was told this and Gerry's first statement to the Police said he used his key to enter.

As we know they later changed that story.

I also believe the apartment patio doors were UNLOCKED every night because of Mrs Fenn.

Gerry could say he changed his story because he initially thought admitting they left the apartment unlocked didn't look good for them as parents and hopefully no one will find out.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.07.14 12:56

@BlueBag wrote:
But the point is that the words were always second hand and there is no way of currently knowing how they came to be used. It could well have been Gerry or it could have taken on a life of their own once the family started talking among themselves and "forced open" became another person's "jemmied" then it did the rounds. There isn't any certainty until they are pinned down.
I confess I am puzzled, 'Blue Bag', at your endeavours to discover the exact words used in each conversation that Drs Gerald and Kate McCann and some of their friends had with their close relatives, friends and media contacts in the early hours after their daughter was, they insist, abducted.

But I am sure you must have a very good reason for focussing so strongly on this matter of detail.

Just to assist you, though, here are a selection of reports of those initial, so-important, conversations:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The BBC carried the comments of Trish Cameron: The BBC reported that Mrs Cameron had “received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was ‘hysterical and crying his eyes out’. She said:

"They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open…and Madeleine was missing..."

The Guardian carried the following account from Kate McCann’s father, Brian Healy:

“Gerry told me that when they went back, the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone”.

The Mirror and the Times both carried a report from Madeleine’s godfather, film-maker Jon Corner, who said that Kate McCann had ‘phoned him in the middle of the night. He said: “She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing. It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.

Jill Renwick, a family friend, Jill Renwick told GMTV and the Independent that:

“They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine”.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In view of the almost identical versions of the initial story, does it really matter if the word 'jemmied' was used, when we also have:

* front door lying open
* window tampered with
* shutters broken
* shutters broken open
* shutters smashed?

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 13:14

BlueBag wrote:
"I also believe the apartment patio doors were UNLOCKED every night because of Mrs Fenn."



I am interested how you are so sure of this BB.


Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007
Mrs Fenns statement, taken in Praia da Luz on the 20th of August 2007:
snipped
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying."



Although Mrs Fenn assumed the crying stopped after the parents arrived, she did not see who opened the patio doors or if it was someone entering or leaving.
She formulated an image in her mind based on what she expected at the time. ie that the child was crying because it was left alone/ nightmare. And that it would be the parents who had come in, and the child stopping crying after this. She only heard the patio doors open. She did not see or hear anyone. In fact the child could equally be crying if someone was in the flat and then stopped when someone left via the patio doors. 
In my experience a child who has been howling for a considerable time does not stop suddenly and takes some time and consoling to settle down. 
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by PeterMac on 16.07.14 13:16

1 Shutters
Claim
The McCanns told family members that the shutters had been forced or broken
Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old
brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out".
She said: "They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep,
sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The
front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters
had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...”
Brian Healy -
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned
him shortly after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the
room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy.
"She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
Jon Corner -
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in
the middle of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had
been abducted. Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine
was missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to
her.
Jill (or Gill) Renwick -
a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been
abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour
and the shutters had been broken open and they had gone into the room and
taken Madeleine," she said.”
Fact
The shutters had not been forced or broken

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 16.07.14 13:25

Thank you Tony.

I have a problem with second hand accounts taken as fact when there are all kind of ways they could have been mangled. There is a lot of that in this saga, friends, family, spokespersons.  "Smashed" and "jemmied" seem a big colourful but people do that with descriptions.

The Brian Healy quote now mostly convinces me that "jemmied" has Gerry as the probable source - although he could have seen/heard Trish's account and taken it from that.

Anyway like I said, there is NO DOUBT there initial story was the apartment was LOCKED and the windows had been forced open in some way.

The question is.. how did Gerry get away with changing his story unchallenged? 

Someone must have picked him up on it? His "plausible" get out could be that they were knew that leaving apartments unlocked was not a great idea from a good parenting point of view and we were embarrassed by it initially until we realised it was significant.
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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.07.14 13:50

@BlueBag wrote:The question is...how did Gerry get away with changing his story unchallenged? 
Because the British government, at the very highest level (Prime Minister Tony Blair, no less), personally sent the Head of his 40-strong Media Monitoring Unit, Clarence Mitchell, to Praia da Luz to manage the news, and do what exactly what Mitchell one boasted was his role: "To control what comes out in the media".

He did, to coin a phrase, 'exactly what it says on the tin'.

And has been doing for over 7 years.

And still there are some on this forum who insist that the British government is not involved in managing this narrative.

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