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Devout Catholics

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by View-from-Ireland on 04.07.14 0:46

@tigger wrote:
@ajb wrote:Oh, I hear yous, I'm not setting my face against this - I would just say again: we should tread carefully when we wander into this area. We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.

So we can view the "strong faith" facade as part of a wider charm offensive K&G embarked on at the time but I really don't feel it has enormous significance beyond that. Just like slagging off, explicitly and implicitly, Portugal and its people, I think this is something that K&G would have done if M had merely been abducted.

My interest and focus lie with those aspects of this case which point most pronoucedly to something other than abduction, and I don't see religion fitting into that category.

I forgot to welcome you as you've just joined today, just hours ago in fact.

As for the bolded sentence, I feel you are in error.  On the previous pages we had an excellent discussion going on the significance/ importance of  the 3, 12, 40 days obligation to the dead. That gives us a possible date for the demise of Maddie if she died earlier, assuming she did of course.
Working back from that, we then look at what we know about e.g. the  29th April.
We then see that from that date onwards various events do not agree with the story.
We see that the telephone traffic has a curious pattern  and so on.


I know it has been brought up already but having been raised by a devout Catholic mother the only thing that strikes me is the month's mind which would be held a month after the deceased had passed away. The month's mind is a big deal. I spoke to the wife of a man who died recently and she said the month's mind is more difficult even than the funeral. As that's when reality hits. 

In my experience of Catholicism (I am lapsed!), the person is usually buried within three days of death, then the month's mind and then the yearly anniversary.

I bring this up again only because my Catholicism was Irish as would be McCann Catholicism so I am not so sure about all this 12 and 40 day stuff as it never featured in the traditions I grew up with and I am not sure they would fit with McCann traditions either. 

To go back to the original point, I think Catholicism was convenient for them given that they were in a predominantly Catholic country. I doubt they are in any shape or form devout. Like most Catholics I know, they probably pick and choose from the menu. Very few Catholics that I know actually observe all the things you are supposed to so I wouldn't get hung up on whether or not they went to mass/confession while in Portugal to be honest. I think the Catholic question kicked in after May 3rd and only because it was convenient.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 04.07.14 1:58

@ajb wrote:
9 days: Greeks, Romans and even Jews at one time attached special significance to the ninth day after death, but Catholics do not. 
(italics added by me)

@ajb wrote:We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.
You don't appear to have much regard for Jewish people. 'Even Jews' speaks volumes, and to dismiss Murdoch as having 'no religion' even though his mother is Jewish is potentially hugely offensive, given that Jewish descent is passed through the female hereditary line.

I have no religion, believing that God is God and no one set of man-made rules defines Him. (Another fact of unspeakable religious arrogance (of whichever faith) is to assume that 'your' way is the 'right' way.) But even I can see there's an agenda going on here.

It's not Catholicism that's on dodgy ground here, once again (in my opinion) it's the McCanns' manipulative motives.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by missbeetle on 04.07.14 2:18

How is it the title of this thread has been changed?

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 04.07.14 5:29

I have no idea Miss B. Most bizarre. I have changed it back.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by missbeetle on 04.07.14 7:54

"

From a May 30th, 2007 Telegraph article titled 'Madeleine's parents have audience with Pope' :




A blue tartan umbrella...

I wonder which Clan's tartan was used as a shelter for proud Glaswegian Gerry?

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 04.07.14 8:17

@missbeetle wrote:"

From a May 30th, 2007 Telegraph article titled 'Madeleine's parents have audience with Pope' :




A blue tartan umbrella...

I wonder which Clan's tartan was used as a shelter for proud Glaswegian Gerry?

Black rosary beads?

There's a wonderful clip on YouTube of Mitchell's arm coming through trying to shake hands with the Pope.

As for sitting in the seats normally reserved for heads of state - that all Mitchell's spin. Heads of state di not usually have to sit together with a bunch of Randomly selected people and wait for their 30 second blessing. They're allowed indoors and might even get the odd cup of coffee.

The truth is that the McCanns were shoe-horned into a routine event. no doubt with people more deserving of a Papal blessing.
The clips and photographs were edited to make it look as if they were the only ones invited imo.
In fact, I remember reading it at the time and was under the impression then that it was one of these occasions where you see the visitors and the Pope in an enormous palatial room of the Vatican.

I've looked for that butterfly Kate said alighted on her person, nope - can't see it. Was that by chance an allusion that the Holy Ghost had landed on her hairdo? Thus giving the approval of the Creator of the universe to this fine example of motherhood?

Another ott spin imo which did convince a large number of people that all was exactly as the McCanns said.
In fact, I had a dear and really devout friend who would not believe anything bad about the McCanns.
'But they've been blessed by the Pope!' She said.

Possibly the best spin that Clarrie arranged, although I feel Blair may have worked behind the scenes as he was soon to be the poster boy for late conversion to the faith.





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Just rewards...?

Post by missbeetle on 04.07.14 8:37


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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 04.07.14 9:48

@missbeetle wrote:" "

I see an inoffensive, slightly Chris Martinesque, oddly-fringed Anglo-Canadian vicar on the left.

On the right, I see a chap who's rocking the interfaith look.

Interesting choice of jacket.

He does love his pens.

A trick of the light and the shirt sleeve behind him, but to me it looks like he is wearing a bridal veil.

Silvery headband/skullcap and all.

Never mind that, what the hell is that picture behind him supposed to be?

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The Hound From Hell...?

Post by missbeetle on 04.07.14 9:51

A haram, sniffing, dozy white terrier of some kind.

Presumably an English dog.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 04.07.14 9:56

@missbeetle wrote:A haram, sniffing, dozy white terrier of some kind.

Presumably an English dog.

I can see that now you've said it. But it has awfully human features - it looks like the Joker, FFS! I thought at first he had some kind of demon hovering over his shoulder.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by aquila on 04.07.14 10:00

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:A haram, sniffing, dozy white terrier of some kind.

Presumably an English dog.

I can see that now you've said it. But it has awfully human features - it looks like the Joker, FFS! I thought at first he had some kind of demon hovering over his shoulder.
I'm concerned about the grey marrow growing out of the back of his head.  big grin

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 04.07.14 11:52

Dee Coy wrote:
@ajb wrote:
9 days: Greeks, Romans and even Jews at one time attached special significance to the ninth day after death, but Catholics do not. 
(italics added by me)

@ajb wrote:We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.
You don't appear to have much regard for Jewish people. 'Even Jews' speaks volumes, and to dismiss Murdoch as having 'no religion' even though his mother is Jewish is potentially hugely offensive, given that Jewish descent is passed through the female hereditary line.


Ye Gods. I used the word "even" before Jews to distinguish Judaism - a living faith - from the two ancient cultures, Greek and Roman, that I had just mentioned. I would have used the same word if I was referring to Rastafarianism or Seventh Day Adventism. "Speaks volumes"? Maybe about your determination to be offended, certainly not about my views on Judaism.


And I'm afraid if you find the phrase "No religion" offensive (that reaction again, well done) I suggest you take it up with Mr Murdoch, as that's how he describes himself.


It's quite clear that - despite View-From-Ireland reinforcing everything I've said about the Catholic faith and its rituals and so confirming the total speciousness of this "theory" - dissent is not tolerated here, facts will not allowed to get in the way of people's recreational discussion of the death of a little girl, and so my quest for somewhere that Madeleine's disappearance is discussed intelligently and dispassionately must continue.


Good luck identifying the breed of dog behind the priest/vicar in the photo - I have no doubt that once you all manage that, the trial and prosecution of Kate and Gerry will inevitably follow.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 04.07.14 12:08

It was a joke about the dog in the photo - I can't even see it by the way!

AJB, I did understand that you meant no offence with the words "even Jews....."

There is certainly no problem with having different opinions here though there are regrettably a few instances where people need to be reminded to respect those of others. That's life.

Let's start anew and move on please.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 04.07.14 12:11

@ajb wrote:
Good luck identifying the breed of dog behind the priest/vicar in the photo - I have no doubt that once you all manage that, the trial and prosecution of Kate and Gerry will inevitably follow.

 big grin thumbup 

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by lj on 04.07.14 16:56

@tigger wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:"

From a May 30th, 2007 Telegraph article titled 'Madeleine's parents have audience with Pope' :




A blue tartan umbrella...

I wonder which Clan's tartan was used as a shelter for proud Glaswegian Gerry?

Black rosary beads?

There's a wonderful  clip on YouTube  of Mitchell's arm coming through trying to shake hands with the Pope.

As for sitting in the seats normally reserved for heads of state - that all Mitchell's spin. Heads of state di not usually have to sit together with a bunch of   Randomly selected people and wait for their 30 second blessing. They're allowed indoors and might even get the odd cup of coffee.

The truth is that the McCanns were shoe-horned into a routine event. no doubt with people more deserving of a Papal blessing.
The clips and photographs were edited to make it look as if they were the only ones invited imo.
In fact, I remember reading it at the time and was under the impression then that it was one of these occasions where you see the visitors and the Pope in an enormous palatial  room of the Vatican.

I've looked for that butterfly Kate said alighted on her person, nope - can't see it. Was that by chance an allusion that the Holy Ghost had landed on her hairdo?  Thus  giving the approval of the  Creator of the universe  to this fine example of  motherhood?

Another ott spin imo which did convince a large number of people that all was exactly as the McCanns said.
In fact, I had a dear and really devout friend who would not believe anything bad about the McCanns.
'But they've been blessed by the Pope!' She said.

Possibly the best spin that Clarrie arranged, although I feel Blair may have worked behind the scenes as he was soon to be the poster boy for late conversion to the faith.




That's exactly what I mean with they use religion as  a shield. A lot of people can't imagine people so religious committing a crime. I agree it was a brilliant move from Clarrie.
I can't imagine how people explain the leaving the kids alone., crying night after night.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by lj on 04.07.14 16:57

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:" "

I see an inoffensive, slightly Chris Martinesque, oddly-fringed Anglo-Canadian vicar on the left.

On the right, I see a chap who's rocking the interfaith look.

Interesting choice of jacket.

He does love his pens.

A trick of the light and the shirt sleeve behind him, but to me it looks like he is wearing a bridal veil.

Silvery headband/skullcap and all.

Never mind that, what the hell is that picture behind him supposed to be?
Dressed up poker playing dogs?

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"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by truthfultiger on 04.07.14 20:45

Sorry to keep harping on about the whole 3, 9/12 days thing, ajb, but there are a number of catholic websites which mention the 3Rd day as being the common day for a funeral and also that a Novena commences either after death or after afuneral, often culminating in a feast on the ninth day. I don't see how this is no evidence that in the catholic faith these says can be seen as significant.

On a similar topic, during my reading, I was reminded of the vigil or wake which takes place, where relatives sit with the body overnight... Reminds me a bit of Kate's vigil as described by herself and her relatives on the night of Madeleine's apparent disappearance.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 14.05.16 9:24

Bumping this topic, as it's being discussed off topic on another thread.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by BlueBag on 14.05.16 9:57

Catholics today generally don't know their history or their current beliefs (and certainly not what they used to believe).

They certainly get nothing on that from the pulpits.

It's all a bit wishy-washy.

The Catholic Church changed in the 1960s to survive in the modern world. To do this they by sleight of hand changed their doctrines and laws whilst trying to say they didn't change anything.

It was called "re-presenting" the faith...  presenting the faith using different words and emphasis.

The hard-core laws were still there - but "don'ts" like contraception and other things just get ignored because no one goes to hell... hell isn't mentioned in Church... the control factor of fear of hell is gone. 

The Catholic Church today is a very different entity to what it was 60 years ago.

Very different.

The Catholic Church decided to imitate it's Protestant opposition.

It didn't work... it's now a busted flush with dwindling congregations.

It has a leader who diminishes Christ and promotes "tolerant" left-wing liberalist "non-judgement" doctrine. Which may not be a bad thing except that they spent 2,000 years doing the opposite.

No credibility - so God changes his mind?

Anyway - modern "devout" Catholics are people who go to Church... when they feel like it.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Nina on 14.05.16 10:12

And it was the Rev. Robert Gladstone who led the prayer meeting, an Anglican church..........................

http://www.rothleychurch.org.uk/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3571597/Parents-Madeleine-McCann-vow-hope.html

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by lj on 14.05.16 19:06

They are probably running low on people who enable them.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by aquila on 14.05.16 19:13

I just thought I'd mention that on the anniversary date of Madeleine's disappearance, a day when children in UK were attending school, the local church close to the War Memorial was holding its regular Tuesday Mothers Union meeting which could account for the grey haired, elderly people in the photo opp.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Nina on 14.05.16 19:17

Well spotted  winkwink

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by sandancer on 15.05.16 22:00

One thing leapt out at me , the tension in Kate's hand the knuckles are white and every ligament and tendon stands out . Stress ,holding herself together afraid of letting go ? Letting go of what she knows KNOWS !

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by wickerman on 03.10.16 17:24

Why did the MCcanns need to use the church to pray for Madeleine? Wouldn't it have been more convenient and private to pray in their bedroom? Would God not listen there? Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that by going to and from the church they would be seen by members of the media and the locals?

Devout Christians would not stop saying their prayers at night or any time just because they don't have access to the keys to a church down the road. And whose idea was it in the first place? The priest's or did someone gently suggest it to him? And how often had the priest bestowed this privilege to people prior to this in his career?

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