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Devout Catholics

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Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 02.07.14 19:50

Just a small - but significant point - which, as far as I can tell, has not been commented on.

The McCanns made much of being devout Catholics. Wikipedia notes that "Madeleine's parents are both physicians and practising Roman Catholics." This was something which surprised KM's own mother.

The couple made many well-publicised church appearances, and even acquired the keys of the church so that they could "pray in peace."

Now, "practising Roman Catholics", as opposed to nominal Catholics, take their duty of going to Mass on Sunday very seriously. I know many practising Catholics who, on arriving in a strange town, make a point of finding the local church for private devotions and Sunday Mass.

 It would therefore be perfectly reasonable to assume that as practising Catholics the McCanns would have done the same on arrival in Luz, and would have attended Mass on Sunday 29 April, the day after their arrival. They did no such thing.

Not only that, but five full days later, on the night of 3 May when they suddenly felt the need of a priest, they did not even have the vaguest idea where the church was situated, and Gerry was apparently asking people where it was, as they had clearly never darkened its doors!

Is it not perhaps a little surprising that the onset of the McCann's show of great piety does not pre-date 3 May, and should one not question - as Mrs Healey seems to have done - the reasons for this sudden upsurge of Catholic devotion, culminating in the visit for which "Rome is preparing itself..." 

Just a few thoughts.

Enormous congratulations and best wishes to all you staunch regulars for your devotion to the Truth.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.07.14 20:12

Good point Judex

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IVF and Catholics

Post by Enid O'Dowd on 02.07.14 23:51

The Catholic Church opposes IVF and one would imagine that 'devout Catholics' would follow the Church line on this. All three of the McCann children were born with the help of IVF.  In the book madeleine talking about her difficulties in conceiving and the decision to try IVF, Kate does not mention the moral dilemma she would have had on this matter if she were indeed a devout catholic and how she resolved that dilemma.

Obviously many Catholics, including a relative of mine, use IVF but they would not describe themselves as 'devout.'  My relative successfully had an IVF child; she was so protective of it that she was even reluctant initially to leave the child with her husband who is a devoted father.  Rather different to leaving three under 4 year olds alone in an unlocked apartment.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Sonmi-451 on 03.07.14 2:18

I couldn't agree more with the original thread post.  I've only held back from saying the same knowing how emotive the topic of 'religion' remains in these otherwise enlightened times.

So here goes with my thoughts:

I am incredulous that anyone who's passed training as a doctor, (a career predicated on such scientific disciplines as biology and chemistry), could claim there's any supernatural force operating in this world.

If I am in an accident and get rushed to hospital I am not surrounded by people chanting rhymes, lighting incense or recanting scripture. No, I'm usually (& understandably expect to be) met by doctors whose studies have been based upon 'observation and repeatable results', (a.k.a. the 'Scientific Method'), and thus who understand that science, hard-graft and technology are the best bets to help a patient and not the lighting of candles, the waving of incense and the reciting of prayers.  Ask yourself: If you are in a car accident what would you rather be (i) treated by a trained professional surrounded by gadgets?...or (ii) treated by a religious person holding only one or other holy book?

My "revelatory moment" when I realised there was far more to this case than first met the eye was on the 30th May 2007 when I saw the news that trained and educated doctors had met with the pope, (I haven't had a TV for 15yrs and never buy newspapers so had only picked up a vague 'whiff' about Madeleine up to that date). My thoughts, immediately, were: OK, one doctor might (bizarrely!) conceivably place 'faith' over 'science'... but for TWO doctors to do so associated with the same case?  That simply stretches credulity to the extreme and far, far, into the realm of falsehood. At that moment the switch 'flicked' and I could not but help disbelieve anything and everything coming from TM. Educated doctors that are so obsessed by religion that they 'fall to their knees and pray' are so rare they are at the end of the spectrum of 'normal behaviour'... The alternative is that (as the OP  implies) they are simply using the perceived respectability of religion amongts the masses to hide something.

Just as the following may have done:  Savile was a [quote] "devout Roman Catholic"... Cyril Smith MP was a [quote] "deeply committed Unitarian"... A rather famous singer (whose name often crops up when discussing paedophilia and is associated with visits to Elm House, etc.) is a well known [quote] "christian" with a best friend who is a Roman Catholic priest... "Charles Lynton" is a passionate recent convert to Roman Catholicism despite his arrest in 1983 for "importunity in a public toilet with another male"... and so the list goes on, and on, and on....

There's a sort of trend going on here of highly outspoken religious piety? Wouldn't you agree?

For most people religious belief is an anchorage from which to draw personal strength... for others it seems to be a bizarre catalyst for, or smokescreen for, or a means of meeting others of a similar mindset who wish to also indulge in, significantly immoral behaviour.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 7:40

@Judex wrote:Just a small - but significant point - which, as far as I can tell, has not been commented on.

The McCanns made much of being devout Catholics. Wikipedia notes that "Madeleine's parents are both physicians and practising Roman Catholics." This was something which surprised KM's own mother.

The couple made many well-publicised church appearances, and even acquired the keys of the church so that they could "pray in peace."

Now, "practising Roman Catholics", as opposed to nominal Catholics, take their duty of going to Mass on Sunday very seriously. I know many practising Catholics who, on arriving in a strange town, make a point of finding the local church for private devotions and Sunday Mass.

 It would therefore be perfectly reasonable to assume that as practising Catholics the McCanns would have done the same on arrival in Luz, and would have attended Mass on Sunday 29 April, the day after their arrival. They did no such thing.

Not only that, but five full days later, on the night of 3 May when they suddenly felt the need of a priest, they did not even have the vaguest idea where the church was situated, and Gerry was apparently asking people where it was, as they had clearly never darkened its doors!

Is it not perhaps a little surprising that the onset of the McCann's show of great piety does not pre-date 3 May, and should one not question - as Mrs Healey seems to have done - the reasons for this sudden upsurge of Catholic devotion, culminating in the visit for which "Rome is preparing itself..." 

Just a few thoughts.

Enormous congratulations and best wishes to all you staunch regulars for your devotion to the Truth.

Great post Judex and welcome.

As to having the keys to the church - in my experience the catholic churches are rarely locked during the day, as used to be the case with nearly all Anglican churches.
So why would they need the key to the church unless they had another reason to be there?

Why also call Hubbard 'Father Hubbard'. Blurring the FACT that they principally dealt with an Anglican priest.

One may also ponder why the McCanns stood as godparents to the two children of Michael Wright who were baptised in the Catholic faith somewhat late -in July 2007 when they were around 11/12 years old.

The catholic card (1 billion people) was played right from the start.
My feeling is that it was also to placate more devout family/friends - I'm convinced that the old rules for mourning the dead were observed .
3 days - prayer in church. (3rdMay)
12 days - mass (the mass where they emerged smiling broadly)
40 days - memorial service, friends and family ( a meeting in Sagres)
3 months - visiting the grave(trip to Huelva)



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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 9:48

Eta:  best friends with the  closet catholic Blair and his devout wife who conceived (the baby Blair project) because she'd forgotten her pills when at Sandringham for Christmas.

Blair tried to turn the UK into a republic, by referring to his wife as 'First Lady' and hiding his catholic 'faith'  untill he was out of office.
There are no laws to forbid the incumbent PM to practise catholisism.  The only one I know of is the Defender of the Faith, i.e. Queen Elizabeth and presumably the heir to the throne.
Disraeli was a Jew and apparently a favourite PM of Queen Victoria. Some others were not CofE  I believe.

Btw. Queen Victoria said of Gladstone:: 'When one was with Mr. Gladstone, one felt he was the most intelligent person in the room. When one was with Mr. Disraeli, one felt that one was the most intelligent person in the room....'

Almost forgot, Murdoch is a catholic?  Blair was godfather to his daughter who was modestly baptised in the Jordan river. A few years back.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Julchen on 03.07.14 10:32

@tigger wrote:

The catholic card (1 billion people) was played right from the start.
My feeling is that it was also to placate more devout family/friends -  I'm convinced that the old rules for mourning the dead were observed .
3 days - prayer in church. (3rdMay)
12 days - mass (the mass where they emerged smiling broadly)
40 days - memorial service, friends and family ( a meeting in Sagres)
3 months - visiting the grave(trip to Huelva)


I can only speak from my Catholic background (which is so Catholic, that my grandmother would wear black and not eat from Good Friday 3pm to Easter Sunday mass). Im my home area of Germany you don't even have to believe in God to be a good Catholic. It's basically a lifstyle choice (in my only nominally catholic opinion).

Having said that, for a Roman Catholic the 40 day service is extremely significant. In German we call it the Sechswochenamt, six weeks' service, which is being held 40 days = (round about) 6 weeks after a funeral!!
This is taken very seriously in my home region.
Since I wasn't bothered (having left the Catholic church quite some time ago) after my mother's death, our (disgustingly ( devout??) catholic) neighbours arranged the 6 weeks' service. And I got told off....

What I am getting at is: Why arrange a six weeks memorial service if Maddie was still alive???
IMO it's a hint of what may have really happened.

Jule

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by juliet on 03.07.14 10:41

Is Sonmi a follower of Richard Dawkins? "No doctor could possibly believe in God" he asserts, yet I should think dealing with life and death so closely would only increase a sense of a higher power. But the McCanns do seem to turn their religiosity on and off like a tap. Screaming for a priest in the middle of the night? Draping herself in rosaries. Using the church for photo-ops. Wailing on the phone to their priest Seddon (but ignoring him when he panted over to PdL). Making such a song and dance about the Papal audience, as if they had a direct link to the Pope when they were just part of the crowd. Perhaps it was all to cloak themselves in respectability but it was so clearly fake.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by unchained melody on 03.07.14 10:56

Rome awaits...
 
"Clarence spoke to us about a possible visit to the Vatican. Rome is already preparing itself. Francis Campbell was spoken to"
 
– Kate McCanns' diary, 27th of May, as reported in Correio da Manhã 26 July 2007

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 03.07.14 10:58

@tigger wrote:
Why also call Hubbard 'Father Hubbard'. Blurring the FACT that they principally dealt with an Anglican priest.




Just on this one point Tigger, I've only a limited grasp of religious conventions but I did attend a CofE primary school and we always called the vicars, curates etc. "Father".

Actually now I think about it, I have a dim recollection that one of them subsequently turned out to be some kind of pervert....

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Guest on 03.07.14 10:59

@unchained melody wrote:Rome awaits...
 
"Clarence spoke to us about a possible visit to the Vatican. Rome is already preparing itself. Francis Campbell was spoken to"
 
– Kate McCanns' diary, 27th of May, as reported in Correio da Manhã 26 July 2007

Get over yourself you scouse mare.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by juliet on 03.07.14 11:01

Thinking on...perhaps the Catholic dramatics were for the benefit of the Portuguese, who are mainly Catholic and who would have greater empathy for a supposedly devout couple. The police too would handle them more gently (I think they worked out) if they were of the faith. This doesn't quite go with the Freemason postures etc as Catholics are very anti Freemasonry.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 11:26

Thank you for your thoughts (esp. Juliet)  with which I heartily agree. The Catholic aspect obviously went down well both in Portugal and in their Irish-Scottish extended family milieu.
A very Irish Catholic tradition after death is the "month's mind."  Did any thing 'religious' happen in the first 3 days of June?

Tigger, you rightly point out that "Father" Hubbard is an Anglican. Old-fashioned Catholics would  have preferred to die and go to Hell rather than accept the ministrations of a "Proddie!"(BTW Anglo-Catholics do use "Father" but what was Hubbard?)

Then there are the disturbing comments attributed to the real RC priest in Luz, Father Pacheco.

The service at Rothley on 3 May this year was "led by Rothley's Anglican vicar Rob Gladstone" (Daily Mail).

Rothley has a Catholic Church and the parish priest is Father Keith Tomlinson. Why would such devout Catholics again prefer the non-Catholic "vicar"? Conveniently over-ecumenical?


By an odd coincidence, the Portuguese expression which means 'doing something for show' is "para  Inglês  ver" which literally means "for the English to see." The expression was used last week literally as well as metaphorically during the digging in Luz! It could be said of so many aspects of this whole sorry saga.

Just a few thoughts IMHO...

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Monty Heck on 03.07.14 11:32

@Judex wrote:Just a small - but significant point - which, as far as I can tell, has not been commented on.

The McCanns made much of being devout Catholics. Wikipedia notes that "Madeleine's parents are both physicians and practising Roman Catholics." This was something which surprised KM's own mother.

The couple made many well-publicised church appearances, and even acquired the keys of the church so that they could "pray in peace."

Now, "practising Roman Catholics", as opposed to nominal Catholics, take their duty of going to Mass on Sunday very seriously. I know many practising Catholics who, on arriving in a strange town, make a point of finding the local church for private devotions and Sunday Mass.

 It would therefore be perfectly reasonable to assume that as practising Catholics the McCanns would have done the same on arrival in Luz, and would have attended Mass on Sunday 29 April, the day after their arrival. They did no such thing.

Not only that, but five full days later, on the night of 3 May when they suddenly felt the need of a priest, they did not even have the vaguest idea where the church was situated, and Gerry was apparently asking people where it was, as they had clearly never darkened its doors!

Is it not perhaps a little surprising that the onset of the McCann's show of great piety does not pre-date 3 May, and should one not question - as Mrs Healey seems to have done - the reasons for this sudden upsurge of Catholic devotion, culminating in the visit for which "Rome is preparing itself..." 

Just a few thoughts.

Enormous congratulations and best wishes to all you staunch regulars for your devotion to the Truth.
It's inconceivable that the McCs had not seen the church in PDL during their holiday and seems a case of protesting a little too much.  It's a small place, the church is near the sea front and it would require effort to miss it for 5 whole days, especially when one at least was a keen runner and had done circuits around the village (including at least one run along the sea front gaining a dog nip along the way).  I have often wondered if the claimed ignorance of the church location was to underline the claim that they knew absolutely nothing of their surroundings.  If GMcC had genuinely never seen the church how would he know there was one in the village?  It wasn't a question of "is there a church?" it was "where is the church".  Quite why he thought a church he had been completely unaware of hithero would be accessible during the early hours of the morning, or how visiting it then would help him search for his missing child merely add to the strangeness of this episode.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by juliet on 03.07.14 11:35

"For the English to see..." interesting indeed Judex. Re Father Pacheco, is it true that Kate mocked him in her book, saying he was a bit too smiley and effusive like Kenny Everett or something? I fear I have imagined it.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 11:41

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@unchained melody wrote:Rome awaits...
 
"Clarence spoke to us about a possible visit to the Vatican. Rome is already preparing itself. Francis Campbell was spoken to"
 
– Kate McCanns' diary, 27th of May, as reported in Correio da Manhã 26 July 2007

Get over yourself you scouse mare.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 11:46

@Julchen wrote:
@tigger wrote:

The catholic card (1 billion people) was played right from the start.
My feeling is that it was also to placate more devout family/friends -  I'm convinced that the old rules for mourning the dead were observed .
3 days - prayer in church. (3rdMay)
12 days - mass (the mass where they emerged smiling broadly)
40 days - memorial service, friends and family ( a meeting in Sagres)
3 months - visiting the grave(trip to Huelva)


I can only speak from my Catholic background (which is so Catholic, that my grandmother would wear black and not eat from Good Friday 3pm to Easter Sunday mass). Im my home area of Germany you don't even have to believe in God to be a good Catholic. It's basically a lifstyle choice (in my only nominally catholic opinion).

Having said that, for a Roman Catholic the 40 day service is extremely significant. In German we call it the Sechswochenamt, six weeks' service, which is being held 40 days = (round about) 6 weeks after a funeral!!
This is taken very seriously in my home region.
Since I wasn't bothered (having left the Catholic church quite some time ago) after my mother's death, our (disgustingly ( devout??) catholic) neighbours arranged the 6 weeks' service. And I got told off....

What I am getting at is: Why arrange a six weeks memorial service if Maddie was still alive???
IMO it's a hint of what may have really happened.

Jule

Exactly, I think these events were mostly to pacify some family members who may be more devout than K and G.
Gerry glosses over the Sagres meeting in his blog - there's a very good article in it somewhere on the FraudulentFund site and bound to be one here. Family flew in, Meeting on the 9th, they fly - Kate dressed in black - to Morocco. On their return a curious little speech from Gerry about grieving. It all adds up imo.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Monty Heck on 03.07.14 11:46

@Judex wrote:Thank you for your thoughts (esp. Juliet)  with which I heartily agree. The Catholic aspect obviously went down well both in Portugal and in their Irish-Scottish extended family milieu.
A very Irish Catholic tradition after death is the "month's mind."  Did any thing 'religious' happen in the first 3 days of June?

Tigger, you rightly point out that "Father" Hubbard is an Anglican. Old-fashioned Catholics would  have preferred to die and go to Hell rather than accept the ministrations of a "Proddie!"(BTW Anglo-Catholics do use "Father" but what was Hubbard?)

Then there are the disturbing comments attributed to the real RC priest in Luz, Father Pacheco.

The service at Rothley on 3 May this year was "led by Rothley's Anglican vicar Rob Gladstone" (Daily Mail).

Rothley has a Catholic Church and the parish priest is Father Keith Tomlinson. Why would such devout Catholics again prefer the non-Catholic "vicar"? Conveniently over-ecumenical?


By an odd coincidence, the Portuguese expression which means 'doing something for show' is "para  Inglês  ver" which literally means "for the English to see." The expression was used last week literally as well as metaphorically during the digging in Luz! It could be said of so many aspects of this whole sorry saga.

Just a few thoughts IMHO...
HH's Anglican parishoners called him Father, usually Fr Haynes rather than Fr Hubbard.  They also styled their other clerics the same way, and the RC Father Pacheco as Father Ze.  Interesting their memorial service this year was Anglican led.  Perhaps they have been leaning the Anglican way since attending all those services in PDL which seemed to give such comfort.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 12:07

@juliet wrote:"For the English to see..." interesting indeed Judex. Re Father Pacheco, is it true that Kate mocked him in her book, saying he was a bit too smiley and effusive like Kenny Everett or something? I fear I have imagined it.
You didn't imagine it, Juliet. I remember that... and it reminds me of another troubling aspect of the book.

KM has a distinctly odd and unpleasant propensity to "diss" and mock some of the people who were probably only trying to help her. Here are the most glaring examples of a rhetorical technique which seems to me to be deliberate and suggests collaboration with a much cleverer writer (but not much nicer) than KM.

1. Mrs Fenn "a plummy voice." This mocks her ridiculous upper-class accent and turns the common reader against her evidence FROM THE OUTSET.

2. The first policemen to arrive were compared to Tweedledum and Tweedledee. The Portuguese police were ridiculed BEFORE the investigation had even begun in earnest.

3. Father Pacheco - like a smiley Kenny Everett. Ridiculed from the outset, again to cast doubt on the veracity of anything negative he might eventually know or say.

4. Grime and the dogs - "F***ing tossers!" A tasteless - but also utterly incomprehensible outburst - from any sane or normal person in those circumstances.

I quote from Wikipedia.

"Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh), is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or in any way humorous, to the specific end of a foregone conclusion that the argument lacks any substance which would merit consideration.
Appeal to ridicule is often found in the form of comparing a nuanced circumstance or argument to a laughably commonplace occurrence or to some other irrelevancy on the basis of comedic timing, wordplay, or making an opponent and their argument the object of a joke. [a tin of beans falling off a shelf?] ["F***ing tossers!? etc...]
This is a rhetorical tactic that mocks an opponent's argument or standpoint, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight any counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense."
 Much used by politicians and the McCs, it is a low trick, but one from which it is difficult to recover.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Woofer on 03.07.14 12:16

@Judex wrote:
@juliet wrote:"For the English to see..." interesting indeed Judex. Re Father Pacheco, is it true that Kate mocked him in her book, saying he was a bit too smiley and effusive like Kenny Everett or something? I fear I have imagined it.
You didn't imagine it, Juliet. I remember that... and it reminds me of another troubling aspect of the book.

KM has a distinctly odd and unpleasant propensity to "diss" and mock some of the people who were probably only trying to help her. Here are the most glaring examples of a rhetorical technique which seems to me to be deliberate and suggests collaboration with a much cleverer writer (but not much nicer) than KM.

1. Mrs Fenn "a plummy voice." This mocks her ridiculous upper-class accent and turns the common reader against her evidence FROM THE OUTSET.

2. The first policemen to arrive were compared to Tweedledum and Tweedledee. The Portuguese police were ridiculed BEFORE the investigation had even begun in earnest.

3. Father Pacheco - like a smiley Kenny Everett. Ridiculed from the outset, again to cast doubt on the veracity of anything negative he might eventually know or say.

4. Grime and the dogs - "f***ing tossers!" A tasteless - but also utterly incomprehensible outburst - from any sane or normal person in those circumstances.

I quote from Wikipedia.

"Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh), is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or in any way humorous, to the specific end of a foregone conclusion that the argument lacks any substance which would merit consideration.
Appeal to ridicule is often found in the form of comparing a nuanced circumstance or argument to a laughably commonplace occurrence or to some other irrelevancy on the basis of comedic timing, wordplay, or making an opponent and their argument the object of a joke. [a tin of beans falling off a shelf?]
This is a rhetorical tactic that mocks an opponent's argument or standpoint, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight any counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense."
 Much used by politicians and the McCs, it is a low trick, but one from which it is difficult to recover.

I`m glad someone has highlighted these spiteful and childish attempts at belittling people.    It`s bad enough thinking it (must admit I may think disparaging things about people some times) but to actually say it or write it down in a book is totally gobsmacking - why didn`t someone stop her, surely GM read it first or her Mum or the publishers must have proof read it.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 13:17

Careful now!

The Mirror Forum (yes, I'm a vet of that seven years ago) went down a similar route and before long it descended into virulent anti-Catholicism - K&G did it cos they were RCs, the priest helped them, the Vatican covered it up.
 
Juliet hit the nail on the head above - the massive amplification of K&G's Roman Catholic-ness was simply them using it as a faith of convenience while in a deeply Catholic country.

And never mind a few days in PdL, I believe I read that despite having lived in Rothley for a number of years at the time of M's disappearance, neither K nor G had ever set foot in the Catholic church there.

And just to save us all some time debating the seal of the confessional, a priest must use everything within his power to convince someone confessing to a serious crime to hand themselves in and confess all to the appropriate authorities. If the confesor does not, they have not and can not receive absolution. A priest can break the seal of the confessional (and this happens quite often) if he feels it is justified, or if someone's life is in danger. He will not be excommunicated for this, as I read often on the Mirror Forum. He will be relieved of his pastoral duties for a period to reflect on what has happened, then when he returns to his pastoral duties he can no longer administer the sacrament of penance (confession).

In short, as regards "the Catholic thing", I'd say - nothing to see here, move along, save your energy and resources for more pertinent aspects of the case.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 14:01

I feel I must stress that my original post had nothing to do with anti-Catholicism, nor could it (I hope) in any way be construed as encouraging it.
As for moving along (as KM famously suggested Maddie did!) "the Catholic thing" is in fact a very pertinent example, one among others, of the tactics and MO of the McCanns, and as such has its place in any sensible debate.

Just for the record, and to save even more time, there is no evidence of the McCanns going to confession anywhere, and certainly not in PdL.

"When questioned, he [Fr. Pacheco] said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3924.jpg


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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 14:24

No, I fully appreciate, Judex, that your post was completely neutral: I was merely advising caution on how it progressed, as the same topic on other forums has quickly become a very unedifying spectacle.

I take your point on religion being one of K&G's "weapons" but I believe they would have done that if Madeleine really had been abducted, and so I file "the Catholic thing" under "Interesting But Unproductive Side Issues."

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 14:41

@ajb wrote:No, I fully appreciate, Judex, that your post was completely neutral: I was merely advising caution on how it progressed, as the same topic on other forums has quickly become a very unedifying spectacle.

I take your point on religion being one of K&G's "weapons" but I believe they would have done that if Madeleine really had been abducted, and so I file "the Catholic thing" under "Interesting But Unproductive Side Issues."
Ok, ajb, thanks for that.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 15:18

@ajb wrote:Careful now!

The Mirror Forum (yes, I'm a vet of that seven years ago) went down a similar route and before long it descended into virulent anti-Catholicism - K&G did it cos they were RCs, the priest helped them, the Vatican covered it up.
 
Juliet hit the nail on the head above - the massive amplification of K&G's Roman Catholic-ness was simply them using it as a faith of convenience while in a deeply Catholic country.

And never mind a few days in PdL, I believe I read that despite having lived in Rothley for a number of years at the time of M's disappearance, neither K nor G had ever set foot in the Catholic church there.

And just to save us all some time debating the seal of the confessional, a priest must use everything within his power to convince someone confessing to a serious crime to hand themselves in and confess all to the appropriate authorities. If the confesor does not, they have not and can not receive absolution. A priest can break the seal of the confessional (and this happens quite often) if he feels it is justified, or if someone's life is in danger. He will not be excommunicated for this, as I read often on the Mirror Forum. He will be relieved of his pastoral duties for a period to reflect on what has happened, then when he returns to his pastoral duties he can no longer administer the sacrament of penance (confession).

In short, as regards "the Catholic thing", I'd say - nothing to see here, move along, save your energy and resources for more pertinent aspects of the case.

I don't agree. This discussion is about the fake devotion to their faith, of which they made much. It was also good publicity, esp. Where Ireland and the very large Irish vote in the US is concerned.

This is in no way about 'a catholic  conspiracy'  - it's about the unprincipled use the McCanns have made of  a religion which has many admirable and principled followers.
They did the same thing using the inherent xenophobia of the tabloid readers. In fact, they covered all the bases, didn't miss a beat to mix my metaphores.  Detestable, as is the use of a religion which they evidently don't take seriously.
Being brought up in a  dismal Reformed religion I found the Anglican churches and services sheer heaven. i also visit catholic churches and always light a candle forwhoever I think needs it.  i'm sure the saints don't mind.

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