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Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by BlueBag on 03.07.14 18:20

@comperedna wrote:I bet Dickens himself lodged several copies in safe places. He knew enough to realize how devious some Whitehall and Westminster bigwigs can be. Trouble is, if one does get 'retrieved' it can be declared 'not genuine' and not like the one Dickens handed in.

Yes I meant Geoffrey Dickens.


He must have several copies unless he is stupid.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by comperedna on 03.07.14 18:34

He was certainly not stupid, but he had a bluff local boy exterior. He is sadly dead now.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by TellTheTruth on 03.07.14 19:03

Sad that he died before he saw anyone brought to justice.

Seems there is still plenty of rot in high places.

What is going on in this country?


http://news.sky.com/story/1294388/patrick-rock-ex-govt-aide-faces-court

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by ultimaThule on 03.07.14 19:39

Paedophilia is an age old perversion but it's only been comparatively recently that children have been given rights which were previously the province of adults.    

What we've seen of the rot in high places is only the tip of the iceberg, but it's as nothing compared with what is no less than a global epidemic of sexual abuse of women and children caused by the ready availability of online pornography, TTT.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by AndyB on 03.07.14 20:44

@ultimaThule wrote:sexual abuse of women and children caused by the ready availability of online pornography, TTT.
Care to justify that claim of causality with some sort of fact based evidence?

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Woofer on 03.07.14 21:09

@AndyB wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:sexual abuse of women and children caused by the ready availability of online pornography, TTT.
Care to justify that claim of causality with some sort of fact based evidence?

Perhaps the word `exacerbated` is more appropriate than `caused`.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by BlueBag on 03.07.14 21:14

Sadly I think women are pressured into performing acts they would rather not because of the prevalence of on-line porn.

Just an opinion.

I also think on-line porn is a cause of depression and anxiety.

Much debate on that it you want to google it.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 21:48

@BlueBag wrote:Sadly I think women are pressured into performing acts they would rather not because of the prevalence of on-line porn.

Just an opinion.

I also think on-line porn is a cause of depression and anxiety.

Much debate on that it you want to google it.

Prostitution is the world's oldest profession Bluebag and the Karmasutra dates back to 400BC.  I doubt the effects of pornography has any more impact on society now, than it did back then. 

I think if somebody is suffering from anxiety and depression caused because they are locking themselves away to watch online porn, their problems run much deeper than their choice of viewing.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by BlueBag on 03.07.14 22:01

No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 22:04

@BlueBag wrote:No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.
No criticism was intended Bluebag, just put forward alternate views  smilie

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by ultimaThule on 03.07.14 22:08

@Woofer wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:sexual abuse of women and children caused by the ready availability of online pornography, TTT.
Care to justify that claim of causality with some sort of fact based evidence?

Perhaps the word `exacerbated` is more appropriate than `caused`.

I considered using 'exacerbated' instead of 'caused', Woofer, and of course the exploitation of vulnerable women and children to provide sexual titillation for men predates the internet,.  However, I stand by my claim that online pornography has caused a global epidemic in terms of the increase in trafficking and the numbers of women and children who are filmed while being sexually abused to meet the demands of an ever growing market.  

The ready availability of online pornography can cause young boys to become sexualised at an early age and can cause young men to not only become desensitised to the human cost of what they are viewing, but also to become addicted to the imagery.  This can have an adverse impact on their real life relationships with the same or opposite sex  and many, as you say BlueBag, may feel pressured to perform certain acts to please their partners,  In addition, increasing numbers of men and women are becoming afflicted with body dysmorphic disorder after unfavourably comparing their own bodies with those they see on their computer screens. .

Having fallen for it before spent more hours than I care to recall answering the questions of others, AndyB, on this occasion I will allow you to prove me wrong by undertaking your own research into the subject.   Shall we say 10,000 words by the end of next week?   smilie

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by ultimaThule on 03.07.14 22:21

@BlueBag wrote:No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.

Perhaps 'anal' was not the best choice of word, BlueBag?  big grin   There are many causes of anxiety and depression in our modern world but it seems to me that what I regard as 'unnecessary ills' can be prevented by the simple expedient of banning online pornography and requiring those adults who wish to look at pornographic images in films or magazines to seek it out for themselves,

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 22:45

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:sexual abuse of women and children caused by the ready availability of online pornography, TTT.
Care to justify that claim of causality with some sort of fact based evidence?

Perhaps the word `exacerbated` is more appropriate than `caused`.

I considered using 'exacerbated' instead of 'caused', Woofer, and of course the exploitation of vulnerable women and children to provide sexual titillation for men predates the internet,.  However, I stand by my claim that online pornography has caused a global epidemic in terms of the increase in trafficking and the numbers of women and children who are filmed while being sexually abused to meet the demands of an ever growing market.  

Global epidemic?  Really?  Do you have statistics to back that up?  Human trafficking is more to do with vulnerable young women trying to escape poverty stricken backgrounds.  I vaguely remember a story about a woman being enslaved by a family in London, but I would hardly call that an epidemic.  The truth is, most people who work in the sex industry do so voluntarily. 

The ready availability of online pornography can cause young boys to become sexualised at an early age and can cause young men to not only become desensitised to the human cost of what they are viewing, but also to become addicted to the imagery.  This can have an adverse impact on their real life relationships with the same or opposite sex  and many, as you say BlueBag, may feel pressured to perform certain acts to please their partners,  In addition, increasing numbers of men and women are becoming afflicted with body dysmorphic disorder after unfavourably comparing their own bodies with those they see on their computer screens. .

Absolute rubbish UT!  Give the kids some credit.  As I said in a previous post to you, during a documentary 99% of teenage boys admitted to looking at pornography online - they are not all going to grow up to be sexual deviants because of it. You really need to get a sense of proportion here. 

If a boy exposed to online porn becomes a sex fiend, it will not be because he was desensitised by what he saw online, it will be because he was already that way inclined.  If 10,000 boys watch a sex film, and one becomes a pervert, should the 9,999 who did not become perverts be barred from watching it?

As for body dysmorphic disorder, again, really?  Should we ban magazine covers and supermodels because they make the rest of us feel like shit?


Having fallen for it before spent more hours than I care to recall answering the questions of others, AndyB, on this occasion I will allow you to prove me wrong by undertaking your own research into the subject.   Shall we say 10,000 words by the end of next week?   smilie

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 22:54

@ultimaThule wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.

Perhaps 'anal' was not the best choice of word, BlueBag?  big grin   There are many causes of anxiety and depression in our modern world but it seems to me that what I regard as 'unnecessary ills' can be prevented by the simple expedient of banning online pornography and requiring those adults who wish to look at pornographic images in films or magazines to seek it out for themselves,
I see now why you and I don't get on UT, I have a deep aversion to the word Ban.  What you actually mean is censorship.  You can't just 'ban pornography' - someone must decide what is pornographic and what is not. 

Who do you propose should do the censoring?  Who is a better judge of what you or I, or indeed any other adult should watch, than ourselves?

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Woofer on 03.07.14 22:58

Cristobell - I agree with you on many matters, but your replies to uT have surprised me - its as if you are defending depravity.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 23:25

@Woofer wrote:Cristobell - I agree with you on many matters, but your replies to uT have surprised me - its as if you are defending depravity.
I'm accepting that it exists Woofer, not defending it.  Its not my cup of tea, but I passionately oppose censorship.  We are all different Woofer, we have different tastes, different views. 

I find exteme violence in movies disturbing, far more disturbing than scenes of a sexual nature, but I wouldn't dream of asking for them to be banned, because millions of people out there enjoy them.  I don't expect the world to revolve around my tastes. Incidentally, young boys are far more likely to be playing graphic video games with explicit scenes of violence and gore, than watching porn. Shouldn't we more concerned about our kids watching heads being hacked off, than a couple having sex?

Protection of children begins in the home imo Woofer.  We can't protect our children from what they see, that would be impossible unless we chaperoned them 24/7, but we can prepare them for what they will encounter in the big bad world.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by ultimaThule on 03.07.14 23:33

@Cristobell wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.

Perhaps 'anal' was not the best choice of word, BlueBag?  big grin   There are many causes of anxiety and depression in our modern world but it seems to me that what I regard as 'unnecessary ills' can be prevented by the simple expedient of banning online pornography and requiring those adults who wish to look at pornographic images in films or magazines to seek it out for themselves,
I see now why you and I don't get on UT, I have a deep aversion to the word Ban.  What you actually mean is censorship.  You can't just 'ban pornography' - someone must decide what is pornographic and what is not. 

Who do you propose should do the censoring?  Who is a better judge of what you or I, or indeed any other adult should watch, than ourselves?

It seems to have escaped your attention that I have not proposed banning pornography, Cristobel, but I see no reason why it should be readily available online. 

A google search for 'free porn' produced 285,000,000 results.   A google search for 'free teen porn' produced 80,600,000 results.  This is one example of what I believe should not be available on the internet under any circumstances, but no doubt you will be able to justify it: http://www.teensnow.com/

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Cristobell on 03.07.14 23:39

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:No one mentioned prostitution.

I was referring to wife's and girlfriends being pressured into degrading acts they would rather not do. I'm not going to get all anal about it though.

As for the anxiety and depression chicken and egg debate... google it... lots of views.. many not in line with your thinking.

Anyway... I wish I hadn't said anything now.

I hope the dossier comes to light.

Perhaps 'anal' was not the best choice of word, BlueBag?  big grin   There are many causes of anxiety and depression in our modern world but it seems to me that what I regard as 'unnecessary ills' can be prevented by the simple expedient of banning online pornography and requiring those adults who wish to look at pornographic images in films or magazines to seek it out for themselves,
I see now why you and I don't get on UT, I have a deep aversion to the word Ban.  What you actually mean is censorship.  You can't just 'ban pornography' - someone must decide what is pornographic and what is not. 

Who do you propose should do the censoring?  Who is a better judge of what you or I, or indeed any other adult should watch, than ourselves?

It seems to have escaped your attention that I have not proposed banning pornography, Cristobel, but I see no reason why it should be readily available online. 

A google search for 'free porn' produced 285,000,000 results.   A google search for 'free teen porn' produced 80,600,000 results.  This is one example of what I believe should not be available on the internet under any circumstances, but no doubt you be will able to justify it: http://www.teensnow.com/
but it seems to me that what I regard as 'unnecessary ills' can be prevented by the simple expedient of banning online pornography

Those are your words UT. 

I've no idea why you have given me that link, I won't be opening it.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by ultimaThule on 03.07.14 23:58

This UN report to the 25th session of the Human Rights Council earlier this year supports my assertions, Cristobell, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47346#.U7Xcr0Ato3w and you have my word that this link contains no images you won't want to view unless, of course, you prefer to remain in denial that:

"The availability of child pornography online is growing. “Child victims of online sexual exploitation are younger and younger, and the images are more and more horrific,” explained Ms. Maalla M’jid, whose report provides an overview of the main issues and trends relating to her six-year long mandate.

The Special Rapporteur stressed that certain forms of sexual exploitation are increasing such as trafficking of children for sexual and economic purposes, child sex tourism and online child sexual exploitation, but noted that the true scope of the problem was not clear due to inadequate legislation, lack of reliable data, and under-reporting.

“The clandestine nature of such exploitation, the fear of reprisals and stigmatization, as well as the lack of child-sensitive complaints mechanisms, also hampers our understanding of these crimes,” she said"

Eta http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26234092

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by Woofer on 03.07.14 23:59

@Cristobell wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Cristobell - I agree with you on many matters, but your replies to uT have surprised me - its as if you are defending depravity.
I'm accepting that it exists Woofer, not defending it.  Its not my cup of tea, but I passionately oppose censorship.  We are all different Woofer, we have different tastes, different views. 

I find exteme violence in movies disturbing, far more disturbing than scenes of a sexual nature, but I wouldn't dream of asking for them to be banned, because millions of people out there enjoy them.  I don't expect the world to revolve around my tastes. Incidentally, young boys are far more likely to be playing graphic video games with explicit scenes of violence and gore, than watching porn. Shouldn't we more concerned about our kids watching heads being hacked off, than a couple having sex?

Protection of children begins in the home imo Woofer.  We can't protect our children from what they see, that would be impossible unless we chaperoned them 24/7, but we can prepare them for what they will encounter in the big bad world.

Yes, agree with you there and a couple of your other points, but as you know there is `sex` and `sordid sex`.
Whilst I`m against banning, I just see a slippery slope of what has become acceptable sliding into the gutter - it has gone from smutty mags and page 3 girls into the sewers of anything goes and before too long violent and sordid sex and who knows even bestiality and the most graphic violence will become acceptable.  I realise it is all out there, somewhere, but the more prolific it becomes, the more desensitised people become. If its like this now, imagine what it will be like in say 10 or 20 years.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by tigger on 04.07.14 6:34

@Cristobell wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Cristobell - I agree with you on many matters, but your replies to uT have surprised me - its as if you are defending depravity.
I'm accepting that it exists Woofer, not defending it.  Its not my cup of tea, but I passionately oppose censorship.  We are all different Woofer, we have different tastes, different views. 

I find exteme violence in movies disturbing, far more disturbing than scenes of a sexual nature, but I wouldn't dream of asking for them to be banned, because millions of people out there enjoy them.  I don't expect the world to revolve around my tastes. Incidentally, young boys are far more likely to be playing graphic video games with explicit scenes of violence and gore, than watching porn. Shouldn't we more concerned about our kids watching heads being hacked off, than a couple having sex?

Protection of children begins in the home imo Woofer.  We can't protect our children from what they see, that would be impossible unless we chaperoned them 24/7, but we can prepare them for what they will encounter in the big bad world.

If the bolded words are your definition of pornography I'm afraid that  you're wrong, Cristobell. It explains why you recently posted elsewhere that there's not much wrong with porn and that most men watch it. (not. Litt. quote)

Pornography is addictive and can escalate from a mere photograph of a a couple having sex to snuff movies.
The internet has turned into a major industry and we're talking billons here.

As for young boys playing violent video games, many porn movies are extremely graphic and violent so a double whammy.

The 'peeping Tom' type of  film is imo relatively harmless although pathetic, so is Playboy and you only have to go to a nude beach to realise nudity does not equate with porn.

But for many years mainstream films, TV series and bestselling books have focussed on violent, descriptive sex. It used not to get past the censors, now each one has to be more shocking, more graphic in order to attract the money and porn industry has to follow that by producing even more depraved imagery. For it's all about money and those who produce the porn and snuff movies don't care about the human cost.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by bobbin on 04.07.14 7:17

@tigger wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Cristobell - I agree with you on many matters, but your replies to uT have surprised me - its as if you are defending depravity.
I'm accepting that it exists Woofer, not defending it.  Its not my cup of tea, but I passionately oppose censorship.  We are all different Woofer, we have different tastes, different views. 

I find exteme violence in movies disturbing, far more disturbing than scenes of a sexual nature, but I wouldn't dream of asking for them to be banned, because millions of people out there enjoy them.  I don't expect the world to revolve around my tastes. Incidentally, young boys are far more likely to be playing graphic video games with explicit scenes of violence and gore, than watching porn. Shouldn't we more concerned about our kids watching heads being hacked off, than a couple having sex?

Protection of children begins in the home imo Woofer.  We can't protect our children from what they see, that would be impossible unless we chaperoned them 24/7, but we can prepare them for what they will encounter in the big bad world.

If the bolded words are your definition of pornography I'm afraid that  you're wrong, Cristobell. It explains why you recently posted elsewhere that there's not much wrong with porn and that most men watch it. (not. Litt. quote)

Pornography is addictive and can escalate from a mere photograph of a a couple having sex to snuff movies.
The internet has turned into a major industry and we're talking billons here.

As for young boys playing violent video games, many porn movies are extremely graphic and violent so a double whammy.

The 'peeping Tom' type of  film is imo relatively harmless although pathetic imo, so is Playboy and you only have to go to a nude beach to realise nudity does not equate with porn.

But for many years mainstream films, TV series and bestselling books have focussed on violent, descriptive sex. It used not to get past the censors, now each one has to be more shocking, more graphic in order to attract the money. For it's all about money and those who produce the porn and snuff movies don't care about the human cost.







Thank you tigger for pulling this thread back into focus.
It is supposed to be about Leon Britten.
The man who received a dossier and who 'lost it' and now gives the most mealy mouthed explanation of how the appropriate pages were handed to the appropriate authorities to appropriately consider.
Then, whoosh cluck, it's miraculously disappeared.

Whilst we are detouring through the pros and cons of not wanting to define or ban porn, we are failing to address the real issue.
This is, the stealing, the seizing, the violation, the depriving of one person from having the ownership of his/her own body and mind.

Whatever age this happens at, is a violation, but more so for a young child who simply can not make that decision with a mature judgement because it is not mature enough to do so.

Leon Britten's name should be written up LARGE here, because his hands let this dossier slip into 'lost' land and there is no justification for the loss of any important government and public owned material other than that the perpetrator would prefer it to be 'lost'.

And no guesses why that would be.

Let us focus on Leon Britten, his unfortunate LOSS of what must be some seriously incriminating data and let us focus on the 'theft, seizure' of people's rights to own their own bodies and minds and to decide at what time, and with which companion, to have a sexual relationship.

UNTIL we refocus on self respect and the right to possess our own bodies and decisions there will be violence against the person.

It is a slippery slope, where one margin becomes merged into the next stage, and, forgetting about the 'niceties' of whether we use the word or concept of 'banning', we need to be aware that the more is permitted, the more is expected. For this reason, it has to be recognised that lines must be drawn, one side is acceptable, the other is not.

Without this we would have an implosive free for all. Anyone can see the consequences of risk to all living things if all things were permitted.

In terms of re-focussing on the rights of the individual, the child in this case, many many adults are forced into sex slavery, who go there because it is a source of income for drugs, traffickers, etc. It is very rarely a profession of first choice. It is surrounded by risks higher than those encountered on a normal office worker's day, it is not a profession. It is a marginal occupation.

I daily pass a 'Lay by' where 2 eastern block ladies are deposited each day, rain or shine. Cars come by and they get into these cars.
Now, tell me, that alone, is risky. These women do not 'choose' this lifestyle. It just serves them and their current needs for the day, and perhaps their tomorrow. Whatever fate may bring.

Regarding children, in trapped corners, such as in the child's own home or at the behest of some 'relative' or 'known individual', or in the state run children's home, where their lives and own sanctity is supposedly protected by the 'state', this is an evil we should be tackling by bringing it out into the open.

That, for me, means supporting the MPs who have taken this issue on for the horror that it is.

They demand that LEON BRITTEN be answerable to the dossier which he 'lost'.

Victims are now being asked to come forward and tell the police.

We may hope they will, and at least tell the newspapers or friends at the same time, to ensure that the police carry out the role they are supposed to carry out, namely of defending the rights of the individual and not abusing the information and trust of the individual by equally 'losing' essential incriminating information.

There is no doubt that the pendulum has swung too far and too much is permitted to go 'unseen'.

Yes, it has always been around, but equally, the perpetrators must be pulled to account to keep the problem towards the minimum end of the scale, rather than the maximum, and that is the role of those members of society who still recognise that it is 'theft, seizure, violation' to take something which is not mutually offered.

LEON BRITTEN, the 'loser' of an incriminating dossier, that would no doubt show how little children have been despoiled, needs to be challenged most vehemently, in the open, for all to see.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by missbeetle on 04.07.14 7:49

Well said, Bobbin.

Thank you.

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by worriedmum on 04.07.14 7:59

Well said Bobbin    goodpost

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Re: Leon Brittan urged to comment on paedophile dossier

Post by MrsC on 04.07.14 8:51

@bobbin wrote:

LEON BRITTEN, the 'loser' of an incriminating dossier, that would no doubt show how little children have been despoiled, needs to be challenged most vehemently, in the open, for all to see.

Hear, hear!!  bravo 

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