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Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 15:59

@Justformaddie wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:. . .how could any doctor stand by and let someone report a statement regarding the p word and not be repulsed with the lies about him? Then not to jump in and clear himself of these disgusting remarks.

There is however a place for quiet dignity in the face of ludicrous allegations.  
If Police officers jumped in to defend themselves every time they were accused of anything the place would grind to a halt.
And of course trying to prove a negative, - that you are NOT what is alleged - is notoriously difficult.
Totally agree Petermac, sometimes the best option is to do nothing, and the whole thing blows over, no harm, no foul, end of story
Only if the allegations were true IMO
No, I disagree, Payne would have been more likely to have defended himself if the allegations were true and there was a possible case to answer.  I tend to think there was not and as such Payne just let it be, for the reasons both myself and Petermac have given above.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 16:00

@kevmack wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:

Maybe your right, I suppose that's why there's not been any other reports about this aswell. Have you any ideas why dp phoned cps on the 3rd? And the cps worker (can't remember her name) but she also thought he looked familiar, then he didn't like km talking to her  no
I think Payne was trying to protect the McCanns at that point, and the last thing they needed was being quizzed by a UK social worker, who would have sussed them all out immediately and it would have been game over.  Of course they had to talk to the police but due to the language barrier, many things, were of course, lost in translation, so to speak.  Having a one on one with Yvonne Martin could have had a totally different outcome though, so it's hardly surprising Kate didn't want to speak to her and Payne leapt in to prevent that imo
True. And even in an "honest" case, if there was nothing to hide, but a child to be found, the last thing you need while searching, is being interfered by a random social worker.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by j.rob on 22.06.14 16:04

The McCanns made a mess of it. But the show had to go on.

That's my theory.

Okay, I know there are many other threads and strands and prominent people who were there that week whose roles are intriguing. 

If you read about the Elizabeth Smart case, it has all the hall-marks of a staged abduction.

It came along at a handy time for President Bush so he could bury some other dirty stuff.

Nice 'happy' story as an attractive blonde teenager is 'reunited' with her middle-class family.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 16:19

@j.rob wrote:The McCanns made a mess of it. But the show had to go on.

That's my theory.

Okay, I know there are many other threads and strands and prominent people who were there that week whose roles are intriguing. 

If you read about the Elizabeth Smart case, it has all the hall-marks of a staged abduction.

It came along at a handy time for President Bush so he could bury some other dirty stuff.

Nice 'happy' story as an attractive blonde teenager is 'reunited' with her middle-class family.
What show J.Rob?  For what purpose?  For what result?  Because lets face it, 7 years down the line and there hasn't been a single reason that any of us could pinpoint and say Ah..now I know why the McCanns were helped.  It's just an ever decreasing circle of assumption and insinuation that somehow the McCanns are wrapped up in some nefarious plot, of which no one seems to have any inkling of what it is imo

And of course didn't stop them becoming arguidos, didn't stop the British EVRD dogs being deployed, didn't stop the screaming headlines in 2007 about matching DNA in the hire car, and yes, whilst these things didn't secure a prosecution and subsequent conviction, that's because there was just not enough solid, hard evidence to convict, and that is why I believe that the case was shelved and the McCanns released from arguido status.

But they wouldn't STFU, they have proceeded with their case to sue Amaral, and now SY is investigating them as well, and despite what other people think, I still believe it is a genuine investigation, that the McCanns are currently bricking it and there is still a possibility of them facing justice.  All the police need now, as they did in 07/08 is the evidence to convict imo

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 16:21

@kevmack wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:. . .how could any doctor stand by and let someone report a statement regarding the p word and not be repulsed with the lies about him? Then not to jump in and clear himself of these disgusting remarks.

There is however a place for quiet dignity in the face of ludicrous allegations.  
If Police officers jumped in to defend themselves every time they were accused of anything the place would grind to a halt.
And of course trying to prove a negative, - that you are NOT what is alleged - is notoriously difficult.
Totally agree Petermac, sometimes the best option is to do nothing, and the whole thing blows over, no harm, no foul, end of story
Only if the allegations were true IMO
No, I disagree, Payne would have been more likely to have defended himself if the allegations were true and there was a possible case to answer.  I tend to think there was not and as such Payne just let it be, for the reasons both myself and Petermac have given above.
No, I agree with jfm. If people have something to hide they'll do anything they can to divert attention from it. If an accusation was made but not acted on, the last thing you'd do is create a Monty Python-esque finger pointing down at your head by suing. Plus if the thing you are denying is true, any defence lawyer worth their salt will find the evidence you're desperate to protect.

A true accusation and you'd keep schtum. A false one and you'd be more likely to scream blue murder.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by comperedna on 22.06.14 16:25

Keymac. Like Petermac... I think you have it pretty much as I add it up. Together with all the careful work of Mr Bennett... my goodness how far along the way to sorting out what most likely happened has been travelled. What is needed now is some more HARD EVIDENCE that will stand up in court, and back up all the piles and piles of useful circumstantial and indicative evidence... but there simply may not be any that is findable today. What puzzles me is why both countries opened up the can of worms again when there was not anything immediately obvious to go on.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 16:26

@kevmack wrote:
@j.rob wrote:The McCanns made a mess of it. But the show had to go on.

That's my theory.

Okay, I know there are many other threads and strands and prominent people who were there that week whose roles are intriguing. 

If you read about the Elizabeth Smart case, it has all the hall-marks of a staged abduction.

It came along at a handy time for President Bush so he could bury some other dirty stuff.

Nice 'happy' story as an attractive blonde teenager is 'reunited' with her middle-class family.
What show J.Rob?  For what purpose?  For what result?  Because lets face it, 7 years down the line and there hasn't been a single reason that any of us could pinpoint and say Ah..now I know why the McCanns were helped.  It's just an ever decreasing circle of assumption and insinuation that somehow the McCanns are wrapped up in some nefarious plot, of which no one seems to have any inkling of what it is imo

And of course didn't stop them becoming arguidos, didn't stop the British EVRD dogs being deployed, didn't stop the screaming headlines in 2007 about matching DNA in the hire car, and yes, whilst these things didn't secure a prosecution and subsequent conviction, that's because there was just not enough solid, hard evidence to convict, and that is why I believe that the case was shelved and the McCanns released from arguido status.

But they wouldn't STFU, they have proceeded with their case to sue Amaral, and now SY is investigating them as well, and despite what other people think, I still believe it is a genuine investigation, that the McCanns are currently bricking it and there is still a possibility of them facing justice.  All the police need now, as they did in 07/08 is the evidence to convict imo

Do you disgree with/believe Goncalo Amaral to be mistaken following his interview last Sunday, kevmac?

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by ChippyM on 22.06.14 16:29

F
@kevmack wrote:


Of course there are still puzzles, if there were none, then the McCanns would be facing the full force of justice and we wouldn't be sitting on this forum discussing theories, but I still veer towards the more simplistic view, rather than the cast of thousands covering up..well whatever, no one seems to have an answer for what is purportedly being covered up and just saying, "oh it must be very big"  What?  What could be that big?  We have seen recently that no one is above the law, look at all of the current court cases ongoing, people that we thought would never see the inside of a court room, but there they all are, no high up protection for them, whoever they are.

I don't think the current 'celebrity' court cases prove anyone is above the law at all when there has been nothing done in cases like the Elm Guesthouse or all the rumours and deaths of witnesses to the Waterhouse enquiry. for some strange reason we never get MPs hauled up before the courts just ageing comedians and entertainers. 
  It's true a large scale cover-up would be hard to prove with this case but I still think it's a possibility, there is an industry in child abuse images and quite alot of money must change hands I imagine, which would make it in certain people's interest to keep things quiet.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 16:34

@comperedna wrote:Keymac. Like Petermac... I think you have it pretty much as I add it up. Together with all the careful work of Mr Bennett... my goodness how far along the way to sorting out what most likely happened has been travelled. What is needed now is some more HARD EVIDENCE that will stand up in court, and back up all the piles and piles of useful circumstantial and indicative evidence... but there simply may not be any that is findable today. What puzzles me is why both countries opened up the can of worms again when there was not anything immediately obvious to go on.
Maybe someone has spoken, maybe when the Portuguese and SY first got together they were able to pinpoint exactly what they needed to do/find and as the review proceeded, perhaps new evidence did come to light, prompting the PJ to reopen the case and SY to move from review to investigation.

Now all they've got to do is come up with the goods, and I'm not entirely convinced that SY didn't find anything important on their recent dig, they were being so thorough in the first area, then moved to the next, then bam...right we're finished..nothing to see here, but our investigation is continuing..

I suppose we just won't know (and why would we, the police never give a running commentary on their work to the public) until it's either A)all over with no definite conclusion or B) the arrest, charges and subsequent trial of the perpetrators imo

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 16:36

Do you disgree with/believe Goncalo Amaral to be mistaken following his interview last Sunday, kevmac?


In what way?

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 16:59

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/bombshelling.html#more

@kevmack wrote:
Do you disgree with/believe Goncalo Amaral to be mistaken following his interview last Sunday, kevmac?


In what way?

The interview is transcribed in Textusa's blog, link above. The concluding statement from Goncalo is this:

"Gonçalo Amaral  - At this moment for me, the case is only solved when it is known the mystery that leads to protection of not only this couple but of all those friends.”

He believes he was pressured by the British establishment and the Portuguese to conclude an abduction had taken place. He believes the case will never be solved until there is a political will for that to happen. He believes the SY digs were a farce. In short, imo he's saying there's a cover-up. (The interview is an essential, if depressing, read. You'll need to scroll down a bit to find the transcript.)

Do you disagree?

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 17:21

Dee Coy wrote:http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/bombshelling.html#more

@kevmack wrote:
Do you disgree with/believe Goncalo Amaral to be mistaken following his interview last Sunday, kevmac?


In what way?

The interview is transcribed in Textusa's blog, link above. The concluding statement from Goncalo is this:

"Gonçalo Amaral  - At this moment for me, the case is only solved when it is known the mystery that leads to protection of not only this couple but of all those friends.”

He believes he was pressured by the British establishment and the Portuguese to conclude an abduction had taken place. He believes the case will never be solved until there is a political will for that to happen. He believes the SY digs were a farce. In short, imo he's saying there's a cover-up. (The interview is an essential, if depressing, read. You'll need to scroll down a bit to find the transcript.)

Do you disagree?
Yes, in many ways I do.  Gonçalo has had a really tough time of it, and Portugal as a whole has been, Praia in particular, denigrated in the UK media, I understand they want all of this to stop and can also understand why they think the whole thing is a farce, because they haven't seen any evidence that it isn't.  The reason that I still believe there will be a proper resolution, is that I don't believe the PJ would re-open the case just to whitewash it on the behalf of the British, and although Gonçalo was a well respected, long serving officer, that doesn't mean he is necessarily in the loop, particularly as he is fighting the McCanns on a different front.

I respect and admire Gonçalo Amaral wholeheartedly, but I am still of the opinion that there is a genuine investigation going on and that there is a good working relationship between the PJ and SY..forget what the papers in the UK and Portugal say, they are just speculating and I really cannot see, that in these times of austerity for both Portugal and the Uk that so many resources would be used to come to the same conclusion that was reached in 2008

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by j.rob on 22.06.14 17:33

@j.rob wrote:No, I totally do not think for one second it was a pre-planned abduction, inasmuch the McCanns went to Portugal to have Madeleine "abducted" sorry but I think that is an absurd idea.  Yes, in my opinion, some degree of planning (very little) went into the simulated abduction of Madeleine, post mortem, from the apartment but that was in terms of timelines, raising the alarm, getting rid of evidence etc


-----------



There are many pointers that there was pre-planning. The rapidity with which the fund was set up; the relatives immediately claiming 'jemmied shutters' when they hadn't been. Why would they say that?

There must have been a plan to jemmy the shutters, but something went wrong and the shutters weren't jemmied. But no-one told the family at in England so they came out with the wrong version of events. I can't see a reason for that unless it was that there was a pre-arranged plan which the relatives already knew about. But the plan changed at the last minute.

 The speed with which the media were alerted. The role of Jeremy Wilkins is intriguing. Why did he completely change his witness statements? That can only be highly suspicious. 

Jeremy Wilkins witness statement is completely inconsistent with what he would have said and done if he was a completely independent unbiased bystander. It is impossible that him and his wife would have 'gone back to sleep' after being told about Madeleine's 'abduction'. This is simply not credible with two journalists who make a living out of sensationalist drama/documentaries/films.

Police wanted him to come back with the McCanns and Tapas to do a re-enactment. So they too think he is very important.

The enthusiasm with which the McCanns embraced their 'celebrity' lifestyle. Their roles as ambassadors for missing children. And so on.

The Murdoch support has been massive. Everyone knew that it was a news-story that was massive. 

Amaral, who must know more about this case than most - has always been astonished by the Establishment support they have enjoyed.

You say it is absurd to consider it was a pre-planned 'abduction' but take a look at the Elizabeth Smart case in the States. She was supposedly 'abducted' and chained up in a hellish lair. Days after her 'rescue' she is seen with her parents beaming at the White House with President Bush. Despite having been, allegedly, chained up and raped she looks remarkably unscathed, as though she has just returned from a spa holiday.

The 'abduction' story

Shortly after that 'Amber Alert' launched to great fan fare. And the McCanns were lobbying hard to get a similar alert system in the UK and Europe.

Kate writes about all this in her book.


This show. The Mcs wanted fame and fortune as ambassadors for missing children.  Amber Alert systems and so on.

The Smart family got away with it in the US.

The Mcs messed it up.

IMO

---------

One curiosity, if you subscribe to the Establishment cover-up theory, is why did they send the sniffer dogs in?

Possibly because outside the McCann close circle it was not known whether Madeleine was dead or alive. Had the Mcs pulled off the stunt? 

In my opinion.

I know it sounds a bit 'out there' but read about the Elizabeth Smart case. It's completely bogus. Was just a great news-story, ushered in increased surveillance and state control. All stuff that Blair was obsessed with.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 17:35

Thanks for answering, kevmac, and I really hope you're right. yes 

But I think all the evidence taken at face value screams cover-up. And Goncalo, with his first-hand experiences, is more in a position to reach the correct conclusion. I'm sure he's right.

But, yes, that in itself raises other questions. Why did they send Eddie and Keela? What was so big that Cameron was forced into opening the review?

My hope is that there is more than one almighty power involved. And one of those is no longer on the side of whitewash.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by j.rob on 22.06.14 17:39

Dee Coy wrote:http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/bombshelling.html#more

@kevmack wrote:
Do you disgree with/believe Goncalo Amaral to be mistaken following his interview last Sunday, kevmac?


In what way?

The interview is transcribed in Textusa's blog, link above. The concluding statement from Goncalo is this:

"Gonçalo Amaral  - At this moment for me, the case is only solved when it is known the mystery that leads to protection of not only this couple but of all those friends.”

He believes he was pressured by the British establishment and the Portuguese to conclude an abduction had taken place. He believes the case will never be solved until there is a political will for that to happen. He believes the SY digs were a farce. In short, imo he's saying there's a cover-up. (The interview is an essential, if depressing, read. You'll need to scroll down a bit to find the transcript.)

Do you disagree?
I've put the especially pertinent bits in bold.

Why would Amaral be wrong on this?

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by joyce1938 on 22.06.14 18:16

I still cant make up my mind whether the pj and English police are reading from the same sheet .Mr amaral was got rid of ,so what now is the reason for pj to be having a different idea what the truth is ? Will they believe mr amaral was correct in his understanding of events ? seems that they are not telling anything that goes on ,a big thing to us in some ways ,but I don't know if they have another idea of what occurred at all .If you wont tell anything  what does that mean ?We might hope that there are things yet to come out that's why pj don't reveal ? not so sure of that now ,if we don't see some movement from pj ,which is totally different for the English ,what can we think next ? If mr amaral was still in pj .,do you feel something more pertinent  would be disclosed by now ? what really is the case pj are following that is diffent from English ,what did they not I just feel about odd about this situation . joyce1938 believe of mr amarals decision ?

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by guest. on 22.06.14 19:59

I can't fathom it at all

It sometimes seems like a strategic war game with the McCanns, PJ, SY, UK Government, Portugal Goverment, NI, GA and a player known only to those involved

I think they all underestimated GA and what he is prepared to sacrifice for justice for a 3 year old child.




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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by joel27 on 22.06.14 20:03

@kevmack wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@sami wrote:
@joel27 wrote:I have to admit Kevmack is not the only one to find Dr Amaral actions bizarre I have already expressed a view that I worry that he is being played,by some. The strength of his case was always that all the information contained in the book was in the  police files.Over recent times this strength has been weakened with the comments on the missing witness and the coffin story, now he may well have information that backs this up I hope so. However it must be water tight and without question. When I say played I can see a case where he is being fed dud information the pressure on him to prove without doubt in the court case is strong and he must remain sound in his use of any new information.


Surely the Judge will base her decision on the information before her in the current case - did the book harm the search and cause pain and suffering to the McCann family.  No it did not, IMO, the book is nothing more than an idiots guide to the PJ files.  

I don't believe the Judge can make a decision, or take account of, comments made by or attributed to Amaral last week or last month.
This and the fact that the book made money appears to be the nub of the McC complaint - it is making the content of the PJ files accessible to the public but more importantly that cash was generated that they seem to be excercised about.  Relatively few would take the trouble to wade through the files whereas Snr Amaral's book does all the hard work for the reader, and furthermore is written by an eminently credible author who happens to be an authority on the case.

The files themselves say what Snr Amaral has written but the McCs are powerless to sue the Portuguese state for publishing the case information.  Even if they could there would be no point as no profit was made from their publication.  By comparison Snr Amaral and co-defendents are soft targets and, crucially, they have made money which the McCs seem intent on relieving them of. 

A libel case should be about reputation but this seems to come a poor second next to reparation, as evidenced by the fact that, once aware of the book's publication, they sat back and waited for the profits to roll in before making a move.  Ditto the number of articles the McCs allowed the media to rack up before taking action, the result being a large cash windfall rather than the apologies which would have had to suffice had they taken action immediately.  There is a saying in this part of the world that you can't get knickers off a bare ...., and it seems that objections with regard to reputation damage in both instances were  cynically deferred until that part of the anatomy has been handomely clothed before striking.
Agree Monty, but can I also point out in the first quote here, where joel27 has said that kevmac is not the only one to find Amaral's action bizarre, for the record, I have never said any such thing, I think someone has got confused in the quotes and has mistakenly used my name, I fully stand by any decision that Snr Amaral makes and I am sure that he knows exactly what he is doing.
Sorry Kevmac my mistake it should of read Cordellia  new

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by MrsC on 22.06.14 20:06

sally66 wrote:I can't fathom it at all

It sometimes seems like a strategic war game with the McCanns, PJ, SY, UK Government, Portugal Goverment, NI, GA and a player known only to those involved

I think they all  underestimated GA and what he is prepared to sacrifice for justice for a 3 year old child.  




 clapping   clapping 

Thank God for Goncalo Amaral and his fight for justice. xx

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 21:25

@kevmack - thanks for answering my points earlier on, just got in so going to read in earnest now.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by j.rob on 22.06.14 22:07

sally66 wrote:I can't fathom it at all

It sometimes seems like a strategic war game with the McCanns, PJ, SY, UK Government, Portugal Goverment, NI, GA and a player known only to those involved

I think they all  underestimated GA and what he is prepared to sacrifice for justice for a 3 year old child.  




Yes, the Mcs and their acolytes were probably stunned when they came up against someone who had some integrity. A word they would probably have to look up in the dictionary. They are wired so differently, it would probably have blown out a few of their psychotic nerve pathways.

They think they can bully, intimidate or bribe everyone.

And then feign victim-hood.

The word chutzpah doesn't even begin to describe their audacity.

IMO

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by kevmack on 22.06.14 23:09

@j.rob wrote:
sally66 wrote:I can't fathom it at all

It sometimes seems like a strategic war game with the McCanns, PJ, SY, UK Government, Portugal Goverment, NI, GA and a player known only to those involved

I think they all  underestimated GA and what he is prepared to sacrifice for justice for a 3 year old child.  




Yes, the Mcs and their acolytes were probably stunned when they came up against someone who had some integrity. A word they would probably have to look up in the dictionary. They are wired so differently, it would probably have blown out a few of their psychotic nerve pathways.

They think they can bully, intimidate or bribe everyone.

And then feign victim-hood.

The word chutzpah doesn't even begin to describe their audacity.

IMO
Yes, you just said it..audacity and chutzpah, that sums up the McCanns and the reasons for their current escape from justice..no more, no less imo

No hidden power, no dark forces..just sheer brass neck and an heck of a lot of luck (with a few side bits of political involvement thrown in)

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by The Rooster on 23.06.14 9:27

Good working logic there Kev. The luck will run out for them. I hope the police did find evidence during the digs.

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.06.14 9:33

@The Rooster wrote:Good working logic there Kev. The luck will run out for them. I hope the police did find evidence during the digs.
Pity Brian Kennedy and his highly-paid teams of investigators, funded inter alia from the donations of pensioners' weekly pensions and children's weekly pocket money, never found any evidence, but just promoted a series of worthless 'sightings' which led absolutely nowhere - and of course kept Kevin Halligen and his latest girlfriend in the height of luxury for a year

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Re: Libel Trial Postponement: The Truth about the McCanns' Lie - by Nigel Moore.

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.06.14 9:38

@The Rooster wrote:Good working logic there Kev. 
'Logic', The Rooster?

'Working logic', The Rooster?

And 'Good' working logic?

kevmack said this:  "Yes, you just said it...audacity and chutzpah, that sums up the McCanns and the reasons for their current escape from justice...no more, no less imo. No hidden power, no dark forces...just sheer brass neck and an heck of a lot of luck (with a few side bits of political involvement thrown in)"

Either you have an exceptional genius for spotting 'good working logic' in the unlikeliest of places - or, quite frankly, you are talking rubbish

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