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British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by ChippyM on 17.06.14 13:57

@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@ChippyM wrote:
@canada12 wrote:
@sofieellis wrote:
If the same tradition is used in Portugal, then anyone with keys, would also have access to the coffin.

And if someone with keys had the time to wait until someone died, and their coffin was placed overnight in the church, then it would be a simple matter to take an item out of cold storage and transport it to the coffin, and nobody would be any the wiser in the morning.

  And someone who knew about the Catholic traditions of leaving the coffin in the church....unlike me, I would never have thought of such a thing!

It's an astonishing twist to this saga that seems to have no end.  But that the story comes from Amaral - already facing a libel charge - does give it a lot of credibility. This is not a 'source' or a rumour, this seems to be Amaral being quoted directly.  As bluebag said earlier, he appears to be going "all in" - so let's hope he's got the cards (Ace or otherwise) to back it up.  The McCanns lawyers are certain to call him on it, so he needs to know this is true... or know someone who does.   Fingers crossed!

 Unless it's just the translation, he refers to 'reports'. So would that mean he has access to some kind of witness statement or statements about the coffin incident?  I bloody hope so!

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by missmar1 on 17.06.14 14:17

@ChippyM wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@ChippyM wrote:
@canada12 wrote:
@sofieellis wrote:
If the same tradition is used in Portugal, then anyone with keys, would also have access to the coffin.

And if someone with keys had the time to wait until someone died, and their coffin was placed overnight in the church, then it would be a simple matter to take an item out of cold storage and transport it to the coffin, and nobody would be any the wiser in the morning.

  And someone who knew about the Catholic traditions of leaving the coffin in the church....unlike me, I would never have thought of such a thing!

It's an astonishing twist to this saga that seems to have no end.  But that the story comes from Amaral - already facing a libel charge - does give it a lot of credibility. This is not a 'source' or a rumour, this seems to be Amaral being quoted directly.  As bluebag said earlier, he appears to be going "all in" - so let's hope he's got the cards (Ace or otherwise) to back it up.  The McCanns lawyers are certain to call him on it, so he needs to know this is true... or know someone who does.   Fingers crossed!

 Unless it's just the translation, he refers to 'reports'. So would that mean he has access to some kind of witness statement or statements about the coffin incident?  I bloody hope so!
 

I believe there is no way on this earth that Mr Amaral will have lost the plot at such a crucial time, he has everything riding on this trial and would not allow himself to end up being thrown to the wolves after all these years of having his assets frozen by such a despicable couple. 

We have all seen how his life has been tormented for just doing his job as a Police Co-ordinator yet he has shown an amazing amount of patience and courage facing up to these two and, he has put up with all the name calling in the UK press in the full glare of the world for the past 7 years.... so no, I do not believe for one second that he has just lost himself the chance to have his day in court .   In fact, I would say he knows exactly what he is doing.   All my opinion only

Eta,  If there IS any chance that Mr Amaral feels this case is going to go the Mccann's way, ( I hope to god it doesn't) then I would still say he KNOWS exactly what he is doing ( reports of his recent interviews and the delaying of the trial ) )  and the very good reason he has for doing it .

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by NickE on 17.06.14 20:46

Does Roman Catholics use cremation as a method at all?

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by sofieellis on 17.06.14 20:50

@NickE wrote:Does Roman Catholics use cremation as a method at all?

Yes, I have known lots of Catholics who have been cremated.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by NickE on 17.06.14 20:58

@sofieellis wrote:
@NickE wrote:Does Roman Catholics use cremation as a method at all?

Yes, I have known lots of Catholics who have been cremated.
Thank u.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by TellTheTruth on 17.06.14 21:06

@noddy100 wrote:
@kevmack wrote:I'm really keen to find out the veracity of this and the link Candyfloss posted earlier with all the references to dawn in PdL..that's really intriguing, and definitely sounds like certain people know things.., wish they'd hurry up and reveal all, I understand about timing etc and to use the Mccanns favourite soundbite, getting all of the pieces of the puzzle, but it's so frustrating if there is evidence there, that is being kept under wraps until it can all be tied together, prior to finally resolving this crime.

I am a strong believer that the only reason there has been no action against the McCanns so far is the lack of solid evidence that will secure a conviction in a court of law.  Knowing how slippery the McCanns can be, every i needs to be dotted and every t crossed, but hopefully it is just a matter of time
They look rattled
I think they have always been confident because they know the body will never be found
This has kept the charade going
But now I think they may be realising that forensics etc have moved on and some cases are brought without a body and the longer this drags out the more chance they have of being rumbled
That coupled with their indented arrogance is written all over their faces
They are used to calling the shots and now they aren't
Not even with SY
Still catching up but I agree.
The thing I really  have difficulty with is that someone could tamper with a coffin and  that no one would notice. soz 

Similarly, I just can' t see how  you could organise  a cremation if you didn' t speak the language and you were only in the country on holiday.

The MCs seem SO very sure that they have outwitted everyone but I' m really hoping that the "Ace" is coming.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by petunia on 17.06.14 21:23

TTT if you where friends, very good friends with a priest who also spoke the lingo,and that priest would do anything for you i suppose anything could be possible.  winkwink

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by TellTheTruth on 17.06.14 21:49

Petunia, that' s just it! 

The cremation seems far too complicated. The adding to the coffin is far from easy. 

Even though you may have the keys to the church you would still need to have the relevant information about when the next burial was to take place.

So, you have a "small problem" that you need to deal with and it has to be hidden until you can deal with it.

Where do you hide this "small problem" when you have no idea when the next solution will be available?

AND you have no idea at this time ( on your holiday in a foreign country) how long it may have to be hidden for, bearing in mind you have asked the world to search for the "small problem".

If either of these disposal options had been used I just can' t see how without some local knowledge and help.

Sorry, I ve probably just been reading too many detective stories and there's an easy answer.

I'm sure Goncalo knows....fingers crossed!

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Guest on 17.06.14 21:56

Yes, Gonçalo knows. See my comment in another thread:

***
Online Edition: José António Fonseca
McCann should be suspected from day one, insists Gonçalo Amaral
Helena Figueiras / Paul Lawrence Jun 17, 2014 14:25 / Updated on Jun 17, 2014, 14:36
Gonçalo Amaral says there is nothing more to add to the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and, therefore, no account publish a second book about the girl, despite having already written. The former Inspector of Judicial Police will still face the McCanns in court, but continues to say that the Portuguese police investigation was well made and, if you went back in time, would only do one thing differently. Kate and Gerry would have considered suspects soon the day her daughter disappeared.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by kevmack on 17.06.14 22:10

Totally agree with the last sentence, that was the one mistake the Portuguese made and that was not hauling them and their friends straight in for questioning under arguido status on the 4th May.  They were allowed to prance around, putting out stories in the media and setting the whole world off on a wild goose chase, which allowed evidence to be compromised and ultimately created a very difficult environment with which to charge and subsequently prosecute them.  

Sadly it was the compassion of the Portuguese police rather than ineptitude or lack of care, which enabled the McCanns to go about their business, raising money and acting like celebs, but worse than that, to create a huge wave of hostility to the very police force who had gone out of their way to help them, hostility that has grown over the years and culminating in the sad state of affairs that sees a hardworking, conscientious and honest man, dragged through court, in order to assist the McCanns maintain the lie, they started on the 3rd of May 2007

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Guest on 17.06.14 22:13

Hear, hear!

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by TellTheTruth on 17.06.14 22:29

Well said kevmack clapping

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Rasputin on 17.06.14 22:44

Blacksmith now mentioning " The Lusa Document " from wikileaks 2010 anybody aware of this document or where it can be read ? ....Damn good post Kevmack !

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Ochosi on 17.06.14 22:46

Was looking at it earlier, Rasputin. 

Some info here:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id353.html

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Rasputin on 17.06.14 22:49

@Ochosi wrote:Was looking at it earlier, Rasputin. 

Some info here:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id353.html
Thankyou Ochosi much obliged !

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by petunia on 18.06.14 0:25

@kevmack wrote:Totally agree with the last sentence, that was the one mistake the Portuguese made and that was not hauling them and their friends straight in for questioning under arguido status on the 4th May.  They were allowed to prance around, putting out stories in the media and setting the whole world off on a wild goose chase, which allowed evidence to be compromised and ultimately created a very difficult environment with which to charge and subsequently prosecute them.  

Sadly it was the compassion of the Portuguese police rather than ineptitude or lack of care, which enabled the McCanns to go about their business, raising money and acting like celebs, but worse than that, to create a huge wave of hostility to the very police force who had gone out of their way to help them, hostility that has grown over the years and culminating in the sad state of affairs that sees a hardworking, conscientious and honest man, dragged through court, in order to assist the McCanns maintain the lie, they started on the 3rd of May 2007
Great post Kevmack.Goncalo said the truth will only be known when the couple have no protection (or word's to that affect) in my mind yesterday's performance out side the court,said it all, 2007 and 2014 are very different imo for the Mccann's this "car crash"performance would never have been allowed back then!! but it was there for the world's press to see yesterday, the Mccann's seemed home alone spitting venom and spite against Goncalo (especially Kate) a wise man giving up his life and his family for Madeleine..God bless you sir I hope one day Kate will want to beg your forgiveness and Gerry will beg to shake your hand

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by perpendicular circus on 18.06.14 1:23

One of the problems in the damages trial has been the information difference between UK and Portugal.  When some of the MC's wtinesses were responding to questions. it was clear that neither the judge, nor the various lawyers *got* that information here (UK) was very limited and Clarrie led.  So the estimation of the impact was confused. 

 The wikileaks cables aka the Lusa document ought to have been more widely spoken of because ,as the Guardian article makes clear, it was always assumed that it was the "bungling" Portugese PJ who developed the evidence against them. Which is why , in another thread, I stated I felt more should be said about the SY involvement and this is also why I am optimistic , slightly, that the the new SY investigation is working from the bones of the earlier shared investigations and why I felt it was a dubious tactic of GA to downplay that aspect of the initial investigation.
 It could have been vital to make that clearer here in UK earlier  . 

On the court-steps they suddenly looked alone and bereft of all the buffers they normally have in place.  
If it was just a short term tactic, to stall the trial, then it worked brilliantly to expose them to a degree. 
 They had tried to avert any coincidence , time-wise, between the digging and the trial.
 They asked for the digging to be delayed till after May and for the trial to be delayed till September. Someone knew that the 2 events together would not reflect well. 

Throughout their witnesses evidence , during the trial, it is clear that what they want to argue is that the book dried up the funds .
 They need the funds to secure their reputation. They need their reputation to secure the fund. 
 But they can't say that ,and they even have to claim that being made arguidos was totally cool and expected and not traumatic in any way. .
 
 In creating a media monster and accepting Clarrie they have made a Frankenstein that they have to keep feeding .  The monster was to push away any suggestion of their involvement and they saw that negligence was the first in-road to that. 
 The article I posted in which Clarrie gives a very open interview to a German satirical magazine was most revealing in that he focussed on  "parental responsibility" as the very first aspect of this potential money-spinner.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by The Rooster on 19.06.14 15:19

You are right Kev, had that happened the parents would be nicely institutionalized in prison in Portugal long ago. It can still happen!

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Dutchgirl on 19.06.14 20:16

Hidden Evidence

19 June 2014 | Posted by Joana Morais
The former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão discloses new information
Gonçalo Amaral says that documentation within the scope of the English investigation into Madeleine's disappearance vanished from the case files

by Magali Pinto

Just a few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club tourist resort in Praia da Luz, Lagos, on the 3rd of May 2007, a witness showed up, a British tourist woman, who claimed she saw the girl's father walking in the beach at night. The disclosure was made by the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão, Gonçalo Amaral, on CMTV [Correio da Manhã TV channel, available at MEO digital TV provider], according to whom all data referring to that witness has vanished.

"We tried to retrieve that witness statement and the documents that were in the domain of the English police. They have simply vanished. To this day we still don't know who that witness is and where she is", said Gonçalo Amaral.

The former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will face again today Gerry and Kate McCann at the Palácio da Justiça in Lisbon, for another hearing session of the trial in which the McCann couple demands 1,2 million euros for damages for the publication of the book 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira' [Maddie, The Truth of the Lie] written by Gonçalo Amaral. In the book, the former coordinator of the PJ sustains the thesis that the parents are responsible for the disappearance of the girls and the concealment of her body.

Gonçalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead.

"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".

He concluded by saying, "The mystery will only be over when they stop protecting the McCann couple. Only then we will learn the truth".

Details

5 Million
Since the beginning of the Operation Grange - the name given to the English investigation initiated in 2011 - the English have already spend well over 5 million euros. [sic, is closer to 12 million euros/10 million pounds]

Two Weeks
Just in the searches that took place in the past couple of weeks, with sniffer dogs, georadar, in three areas in Praia da Luz, the English authorities have spent about 100 thousand euros.

Results
Even though all that money has been invested, so far, there is no progress made in the investigation resulting from the efforts of the English.

in Correio da Manhã, pag. 19, paper edition/online here, June 16, 2014
Before, during and after the time the McCanns were constituted as ‘arguidos’ [formal suspects], Leicestershire Police who was supposedly working in liaison with the Judiciary Police, displayed a link to the McCanns limited company, their 'fund-raising' website. The link was only removed on 7 September 2010. More on the fund here.

«Leicestershire Constabulary: A number of law enforcement agencies, including Leicestershire Constabulary, have a link to the 'Find Madeleine' website. Whilst we encourage anyone with information about Madeleine's whereabouts to contact the Portuguese police or their local police, we recognise the fact that some people may not feel comfortable in doing so. This link provides them with an alternative means of passing information.» in The Most Incredible Statement Made By A Police Force Ever

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by Dogs Don't Lie on 18.12.14 4:44

@Nina wrote:
@SallyVern wrote:I trust Dr Amaral and considering the length of time it took to move Madeleine's body then his theory makes sense. I recall (a rumour?) he said evidence had been found suggesting Madelene's body was frozen prior to being moved in the hire car. Maybe frozen while waiting for the first available funeral? but it's a huge gamble to take. What if someone looked in the coffin prior to the cremation.

I can't remember the guy's name, the one that stored the hire car for the McCanns. Maybe his freezer should undergo forensic examination just to make sure.
SallyVern, when one looks into the coffin at the dearly departed we look at the face, maybe the hands as they may have been placed at repose on the chest. We do not look further down the coffin and often, even with the full lid lifted the lower body is covered by a lace edged coverlet. It would be very easy to place something else beside, or under the legs of the person awaiting disposal be it by burial or cremation.
I wonder if maybe an overnight in the church prior to the service? This would make me believe it was a person who was very close to the church and wished to be there overnight before their last journey.


Just another pointer which makes it more believable. An open top casket can also open in two halves which is pretty normal anyway exposing the torso and leaving the legs and feet covered with the other half. Would there be enough room to conceal a small child without anyone noticing?


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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by ScarletLaw on 18.12.14 16:22

@Dutchgirl wrote:Hidden Evidence

19 June 2014 | Posted by Joana Morais
The former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão discloses new information
Gonçalo Amaral says that documentation within the scope of the English investigation into Madeleine's disappearance vanished from the case files

by Magali Pinto

Just a few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club tourist resort in Praia da Luz, Lagos, on the 3rd of May 2007, a witness showed up, a British tourist woman, who claimed she saw the girl's father walking in the beach at night. The disclosure was made by the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão, Gonçalo Amaral, on CMTV [Correio da Manhã TV channel, available at MEO digital TV provider], according to whom all data referring to that witness has vanished.

"We tried to retrieve that witness statement and the documents that were in the domain of the English police. They have simply vanished. To this day we still don't know who that witness is and where she is", said Gonçalo Amaral.

The former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will face again today Gerry and Kate McCann at the Palácio da Justiça in Lisbon, for another hearing session of the trial in which the McCann couple demands 1,2 million euros for damages for the publication of the book 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira' [Maddie, The Truth of the Lie] written by Gonçalo Amaral. In the book, the former coordinator of the PJ sustains the thesis that the parents are responsible for the disappearance of the girls and the concealment of her body.

Gonçalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead.

"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".

He concluded by saying, "The mystery will only be over when they stop protecting the McCann couple. Only then we will learn the truth".

Details

5 Million
Since the beginning of the Operation Grange - the name given to the English investigation initiated in 2011 - the English have already spend well over 5 million euros. [sic, is closer to 12 million euros/10 million pounds]

Two Weeks
Just in the searches that took place in the past couple of weeks, with sniffer dogs, georadar, in three areas in Praia da Luz, the English authorities have spent about 100 thousand euros.

Results
Even though all that money has been invested, so far, there is no progress made in the investigation resulting from the efforts of the English.

in Correio da Manhã, pag. 19, paper edition/online here, June 16, 2014
Before, during and after the time the McCanns were constituted as ‘arguidos’ [formal suspects], Leicestershire Police who was supposedly working in liaison with the Judiciary Police, displayed a link to the McCanns limited company, their 'fund-raising' website. The link was only removed on 7 September 2010. More on the fund here.

«Leicestershire Constabulary: A number of law enforcement agencies, including Leicestershire Constabulary, have a link to the 'Find Madeleine' website. Whilst we encourage anyone with information about Madeleine's whereabouts to contact the Portuguese police or their local police, we recognise the fact that some people may not feel comfortable in doing so. This link provides them with an alternative means of passing information.» in The Most Incredible Statement Made By A Police Force Ever
 The government will stand by them because they have invested lots of money in resources and man power in protecting them for 7 years, so they're not going to stop now. There's a person in the interviews who through deliberate slips, has already pointed out what's wrong with another person. I think they wanted the police to catch on to their hints and to scared to actually tell them because of the government involvement. My advice to them is find Michael Mansfield QC and to tell him the truth because they can trust him.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by woodforthetrees on 19.12.14 14:20

@perpendicular circus wrote: They need the funds to secure their reputation. They need their reputation to secure the fund. 
 But they can't say that ,and they even have to claim that being made arguidos was totally cool and expected and not traumatic in any way. .
 
 In creating a media monster and accepting Clarrie they have made a Frankenstein that they have to keep feeding .  The monster was to push away any suggestion of their involvement and they saw that negligence was the first in-road to that. 
 The article I posted in which Clarrie gives a very open interview to a German satirical magazine was most revealing in that he focussed on  "parental responsibility" as the very first aspect of this potential money-spinner.

They need to keep the idea of 'an abduction that happened in a matter of minutes by a highly planned individual' and NOT that Madeleine was left alone for hours to be abused and killed in the apartment, as this, regardless of who disposed of her body, is negligence....which of course will affect their reputation.

So to do that they need to maintain that she is alive and that nothing sinister happened in the alleged 3 minute window, which in turn means they have to keep the fund going (even thought hey know she is dead) and keeping the gravy train going for everyone

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by j.rob on 19.12.14 17:29

If, as Amaral suggests, Madeleine was cremated a month after she disappeared, which would be 3rd June, I wonder what Kate has to say about the events of that day in her surprisingly revealing book?

Perhaps also of interest, it was in early June that that the Foreign Office decided that Clarence had to go and the McCanns should use Madeleine's Fund to employ someone to replace Clarence once their campaign visits were complete. Also of note is how reluctant the McCann's are to have to use The Fund to pay a salary for media liaison. 

But back to 3rd June. Kate writes:

"It was the following evening, Sunday 3 June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both: thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able to ready to voice up to now.........We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive.......For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil. ......Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."


Hmmm. And very interesting. So once the 'vital evidence' has been reduced to ashes, Kate and Gerry can sleep peacefully. 

And the Foreign Office can take Clarence off the case.

Job done.

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by j.rob on 19.12.14 17:31

"It was the following evening, Sunday 3 June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both: thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able to ready to voice up to now.........We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive.......For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil. ......Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."


------


"We were so happy that Madeleine's body could now no longer be found."

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Re: British Police hiding evidence in Maddie case.

Post by ScarletLaw on 19.12.14 18:04

@j.rob wrote:If, as Amaral suggests, Madeleine was cremated a month after she disappeared, which would be 3rd June, I wonder what Kate has to say about the events of that day in her surprisingly revealing book?

Perhaps also of interest, it was in early June that that the Foreign Office decided that Clarence had to go and the McCanns should use Madeleine's Fund to employ someone to replace Clarence once their campaign visits were complete. Also of note is how reluctant the McCann's are to have to use The Fund to pay a salary for media liaison. 

But back to 3rd June. Kate writes:

"It was the following evening, Sunday 3 June - exactly a month after Madeleine's abduction - that Gerry and I opened up a little more to each other and shared some of the thoughts and anxieties that had been quietly tormenting us both: thoughts and anxieties that perhaps we hadn't felt able to ready to voice up to now.........We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive.......For me, the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil. ......Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."


Hmmm. And very interesting. So once the 'vital evidence' has been reduced to ashes, Kate and Gerry can sleep peacefully. 

And the Foreign Office can take Clarence off the case.

Job done.

Great point. It's just my opinion but the "quiet torment" that relates to us both, sounds like collective guilt. In the few interviews I've looked at so far it's always "we" when mentioning anything to do with their daughter. Gerry uses it a lot when he should be saying "I" and it's just a guess but they obviously share responsibility and not one person caused something to happen. Which points to both being out if I was a betting person and they were involved.  Not being able to voice up to now shows something weighing on her, that they can finally release something in a way. The acknowledged is also acceptance in coming to terms with something. "Buried and poison" are very interesting and quite telling if you think about them separately-poison for sure. I don't know if you're right but something was unburdened for sure.
  Talking about dates, I've noticed that Kate relates to 4th of May in Freudian slips sometimes in interviews instead of the 3rd when talking about her daughters disappearance.

ScarletLaw

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