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Tony was right was he not?

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by fossey on 14.06.14 9:39

@G1 wrote:My theory says that a very professional, organised, international group of child abductors and groomers for child prostitution and other illegal activities abducted Madeleine. It would have been easy for professional, experienced, trained criminals in the months before the dogs' scent tests to plant dead body scent in these places.
I think your theory is way off there G1. 

I appreciate your creative input in trying to exonerate any blame held towards the parents but IMO your theory just does not hold any weight. At all.

Sorry.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Guest on 14.06.14 9:40

G1 wrote:
This was the photo, it seems, which may have been stolen, in digital storage from Gerry, with his wallet, and later posted back to him. It seems to me the photo has been altered by people trying to incriminate the McCanns, or at least build up security tactics against Madeleine the abductee being identified for who she is, if they be needed (to incriminate the McCanns at a later date if necessary.)

and

G1 wrote:

My theory says that a very professional, organised, international group of child abductors and groomers for child prostitution and other illegal activities abducted Madeleine. It would have been easy for professional, experienced, trained criminals in the months before the dogs' scent tests to plant dead body scent in these places.


Oh my word, you cannot be serious!  wtf 

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Snifferdog on 14.06.14 9:53

What about Kate's pants, and other articles of clothing that had cadaver scent? Did the supposed abducters come back for the blue bag and pink blanket after they "took" Madeleine??? Sorry but you have to be joking no? daft1 

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by G1 on 14.06.14 9:54

Fossey and Candyfloss, children are abducted all the time for trafficking and grooming for going into prostitution, also for peadophile rings but abducted by professionals.

My theory about details of this, relating to Madeleine McCann, would only make standard, basic sense in such professional abduction scenarios. There's not even anything slightly ridiculous about what you've quoted - it's even sheer, basic common sense as part of a simple abduction hypothesis. Utterly standard common sense.

So either you both know exactly how these abductions work, detail by detail, real case by real case, with insider knowledge. Or you're just some of those hideous people who deny the truth that such abductions of children, including highly professional, organised, "procured" abductions exist.

But you're happy to state "oh ridiculous" or do paranoid John McEnroe impressions without any reasoning even being thought a good idea, happy and keen to abandon even basic common sense theories.

I know many people have their hearts set on a certain, very particular, often simple, targeted theory and aren't willing to consider reasoning through anything which doesn't agree. These people mostly being nowhere near Praia da Luz at a certain time, though, perhaps eventually they will admit that their theories are only theories also.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by G1 on 14.06.14 10:06

@Snifferdog wrote:What about Kate's pants, and other articles of clothing that had cadaver scent?  Did the supposed abducters come back for the blue bag and pink blanket after they "took" Madeleine???  Sorry but you have to be joking no? daft1 

What could be easier, Snifferdog?

Members of a large gang who abducted Madeleine McCann perform their follow up acts any day within months of the abduction, when the parents are away. All it takes is a half an hour or less. Then it's not a matter of waiting for cadaver to develop, they have heavily impregnated items of cadaver scent, much decayed cadaver to make thing easier still. Being professional criminals, they gain access and impregnate areas and especially a few particular items that can be associated with the child.

This can be the easiest thing in the world for an abductor. The hard part has been done already, in early May. What is it that brings such disbelief here, or is it just more of the same - never consider anything against the grain of the McCann's guilt, especially theories which can make basic, clear sense?

My own amazement remains though, at your own theories which hold that these experienced, very intelligent doctors, for sure aware that sniffer dogs are likely to come along soon enough, thought, "Ah, we'll just dump a 4 month corpse in our hire car anyway."

This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Guest on 14.06.14 10:13

I'm sorry but you are taking the 'p' I have never heard such nonsense. I am all for discussing theories, and letting people have opinions, but you are here to disrupt with such rubbish.

PS So you think I and Snifferdog are hideous people hmmm........

 byebye 

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by juliet on 14.06.14 10:29

Did these high-end abductors also place blood spots and a bloody footprint in the apartment GI? Then carefully daub cadaver scent on Kate's trousers, Sean's t-shirt, cuddlecat etc not to mention the hire car. And drug the twins. Also photoshop just about all the holiday photos. And remove the blue sports bag and pink blanket after they had been photographed. And falsify the creche records. And plant all those dodgy manuals and scrumpled Bible pages on the McCanns. They really were thorough in their determination to frame the McCanns.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Snifferdog on 14.06.14 10:35

This huge gang of traffickers also were able to remain unseen, as they broke into apt5a after the McCanns had moved out, to plant said cadaver? Or did they come already prepared with cadaver and blood, right under the PJ's noses.
  iconbiggrin

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by PeterMac on 14.06.14 10:38

Interesting how on this thread and on another couple, how many new posters are getting seriously rattled,
and are trying to disrupt and take the argument to ludicrous extremes.

I wonder why ? (Rhetorical !)

Any ideas, Gerry or Janet ?

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Guest on 14.06.14 10:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLwzIxpQgfs

A reminder of Donal MacIntyre's thoughts on the subject!

 laugh 

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by galena on 14.06.14 10:41

@G1 wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:What about Kate's pants, and other articles of clothing that had cadaver scent?  Did the supposed abducters come back for the blue bag and pink blanket after they "took" Madeleine???  Sorry but you have to be joking no? daft1 

What could be easier, Snifferdog?

Members of a large gang who abducted Madeleine McCann perform their follow up acts any day within months of the abduction, when the parents are away. All it takes is a half an hour or less. Then it's not a matter of waiting for cadaver to develop, they have heavily impregnated items of cadaver scent, much decayed cadaver to make thing easier still. Being professional criminals, they gain access and impregnate areas and especially a few particular items that can be associated with the child.

This can be the easiest thing in the world for an abductor. The hard part has been done already, in early May. What is it that brings such disbelief here, or is it just more of the same - never consider anything against the grain of the McCann's guilt, especially theories which can make basic, clear sense?

My own amazement remains though, at your own theories which hold that these experienced, very intelligent doctors, for sure aware that sniffer dogs are likely to come along soon enough, thought, "Ah, we'll just dump a 4 month corpse in our hire car anyway."

This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard.
I agree with you about the hire car - that has never made sense to me either. But I find it hard to believe that an international gang would go to all that trouble to abduct Madeleine knowing that it would lead to an international search, when there are plenty of countries where you could buy a similar child for a relatively small sum of money, or abduct her without any fuss.   Still it's an interesting theory and TBH it's no more farfetched than many theories which implicate the parents ...

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Guest on 14.06.14 10:48

candyfloss wrote:I'm sorry but you are taking the 'p' I have never heard such nonsense.  I am all for discussing theories, and letting people have opinions,  but you are here to disrupt with such rubbish.  

PS So you think I and Snifferdog are hideous people hmmm........

 byebye 
Thank you candyfloss, my blood pressure was going up again as I was reading the thread just when I thought it was safe to enter the water again  roses 

 shark

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Snifferdog on 14.06.14 10:52

@galena wrote:
@G1 wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:What about Kate's pants, and other articles of clothing that had cadaver scent?  Did the supposed abducters come back for the blue bag and pink blanket after they "took" Madeleine???  Sorry but you have to be joking no? daft1 

What could be easier, Snifferdog?

Members of a large gang who abducted Madeleine McCann perform their follow up acts any day within months of the abduction, when the parents are away. All it takes is a half an hour or less. Then it's not a matter of waiting for cadaver to develop, they have heavily impregnated items of cadaver scent, much decayed cadaver to make thing easier still. Being professional criminals, they gain access and impregnate areas and especially a few particular items that can be associated with the child.

This can be the easiest thing in the world for an abductor. The hard part has been done already, in early May. What is it that brings such disbelief here, or is it just more of the same - never consider anything against the grain of the McCann's guilt, especially theories which can make basic, clear sense?

My own amazement remains though, at your own theories which hold that these experienced, very intelligent doctors, for sure aware that sniffer dogs are likely to come along soon enough, thought, "Ah, we'll just dump a 4 month corpse in our hire car anyway."

This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard.
I agree with you about the hire car - that has never made sense to me either. But I find it hard to believe that an international gang would go to all that trouble to abduct Madeleine knowing that it would lead to an international search, when there are plenty of countries where you could buy a similar child for a relatively small sum of money, or abduct her without any fuss.   Still it's an interesting theory and TBH it's no more farfetched than many theories which implicate the parents ...

It would not make sense to say the parents dumped the body in the hire car four months later - but it would make sense to say the parents USED the hire car to dump the body four months later.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Guest on 14.06.14 11:10

Like a lot of people I always thought cadaver dogs were for finding cadavers.
Even as a doggie person I didn't realise their amazing capacity to detect even the places where cadavers had been. Many years later even.
Other scent dogs like a truffle dog or a fox hound only trace fresh scent. Imagine if a dog detected all the places truffles had been maybe last year or the year before. Or after they had been eaten by the wild boar. They would lose their job. 

Training scent dogs seems to be a very rapidly developing field with the new uses for detecting diabetes and cancer etc.

ASAIK cadaver dogs and their uses were not taught in medical school historically, they may well be now, but I would seriously doubt if they were back in the early 1990's. Forensic medicine as an undergraduate is usually only a two week block. And deals more with doctors being able to detect the signs of foul play when making a post-mortem examination for signing a death certificate.
Finding cadavers is highly specialised police work. 
So it would not surprise me that GM and KM made sure that Madeleines body could not be found by the dogs. But didn't realise at the time of disposal that the body leaves a trail that lasts a very long time, and is resistant to even clinical cleaning.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by fossey on 14.06.14 11:18

dantezebu wrote:So it would not surprise me that GM and KM made sure that Madeleines body could not be found by the dogs. But didn't realise at the time of disposal that the body leaves a trail that lasts a very long time, and is resistant to even clinical cleaning.
EXACTLY.

They underestimated the dogs big time. After the very meticulous clean up they assumed that all traces would be 'whooshed'.

Wrong.

Then to to try and discredit the dogs with smelly seabass porkies is just LUDICROUS.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Cristobell on 14.06.14 11:21

candyfloss wrote:I'm sorry but you are taking the 'p' I have never heard such nonsense.  I am all for discussing theories, and letting people have opinions,  but you are here to disrupt with such rubbish.  

PS So you think I and Snifferdog are hideous people hmmm........

 byebye 
This may be a good place for TM to test out new ideas to explain away the existing evidence.  Clearly this one will never get off the ground. smilie

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by juliet on 14.06.14 11:40

The Mccanns have always claimed an abductor. The new idea suggests abductors turning up with their pockets full of anaesthetic drugs, cadaver scent, blood sprayers, cleaning materials and a size five trainer to leave a bloody smear.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by galena on 14.06.14 12:00

@Snifferdog wrote:
@galena wrote:
@G1 wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:What about Kate's pants, and other articles of clothing that had cadaver scent?  Did the supposed abducters come back for the blue bag and pink blanket after they "took" Madeleine???  Sorry but you have to be joking no? daft1 

What could be easier, Snifferdog?

Members of a large gang who abducted Madeleine McCann perform their follow up acts any day within months of the abduction, when the parents are away. All it takes is a half an hour or less. Then it's not a matter of waiting for cadaver to develop, they have heavily impregnated items of cadaver scent, much decayed cadaver to make thing easier still. Being professional criminals, they gain access and impregnate areas and especially a few particular items that can be associated with the child.

This can be the easiest thing in the world for an abductor. The hard part has been done already, in early May. What is it that brings such disbelief here, or is it just more of the same - never consider anything against the grain of the McCann's guilt, especially theories which can make basic, clear sense?

My own amazement remains though, at your own theories which hold that these experienced, very intelligent doctors, for sure aware that sniffer dogs are likely to come along soon enough, thought, "Ah, we'll just dump a 4 month corpse in our hire car anyway."

This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard.
I agree with you about the hire car - that has never made sense to me either. But I find it hard to believe that an international gang would go to all that trouble to abduct Madeleine knowing that it would lead to an international search, when there are plenty of countries where you could buy a similar child for a relatively small sum of money, or abduct her without any fuss.   Still it's an interesting theory and TBH it's no more farfetched than many theories which implicate the parents ...

It would not make sense to say the parents dumped the body in the hire car four months later - but it would make sense to say the parents USED the hire car to dump the body four months later.
Yes, I know that but it's still a big risk to take - and it certainly suggests that they were pretty desperate and acted alone - otherwise they would surely have found an accomplice to dispose of the body in a vehicle that couldn't be traced back to them.    One thing for sure the hire car evidence came as a complete surprise to everyone  on the forums at the time and sparked off a lot of interesting debate ...

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Nina on 14.06.14 12:46

@fossey wrote:
dantezebu wrote:So it would not surprise me that GM and KM made sure that Madeleines body could not be found by the dogs. But didn't realise at the time of disposal that the body leaves a trail that lasts a very long time, and is resistant to even clinical cleaning.
EXACTLY.

They underestimated the dogs big time. After the very meticulous clean up they assumed that all traces would be 'whooshed'.

Wrong.

Then to to try and discredit the dogs with smelly seabass porkies is just LUDICROUS.
They only did this re the sea-bass when they had done their research and had the eureka moment when they discovered that there are rather vague similarities to this 9 day old rotting fish and cadaverine. There are other similarities with other secretions but not as uppper class to speak of, but sea-bass, wow ticked the cadaverine box and the upper middle class box too, oh the joy in Rothley Manor that day.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by fossey on 14.06.14 12:54

@Nina wrote:
@fossey wrote:
dantezebu wrote:So it would not surprise me that GM and KM made sure that Madeleines body could not be found by the dogs. But didn't realise at the time of disposal that the body leaves a trail that lasts a very long time, and is resistant to even clinical cleaning.
EXACTLY.

They underestimated the dogs big time. After the very meticulous clean up they assumed that all traces would be 'whooshed'.

Wrong.

Then to to try and discredit the dogs with smelly seabass porkies is just LUDICROUS.
They only did this re the sea-bass when they had done their research and had the eureka moment when they discovered that there are rather vague similarities to this 9 day old rotting fish and cadaverine. There are other similarities with other secretions but not as uppper class to speak of, but sea-bass, wow ticked the cadaverine box and the upper middle class box too, oh the joy in Rothley Manor that day.
Yes, i gather there are vague similarities.

Even so - to blog to the world, that your 2 year old son has taken an instant like to consuming vast quantities of Seabass for breakfast, lunch and dinner (slight exaggeration, but words to that affect) to try and morph the similarities together is just LUDICROUS.

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by Miraflores on 14.06.14 13:21

It would have been a lot easier for them to declare that Kate had taken a liking to sea bass, perhaps as some sort of health kick, instead of the claims that she had been around 6 dead bodies in the weeks before her holiday.

Incidentally, who is it who made that claim?

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by bobbin on 14.06.14 13:27

@Nina wrote:
@fossey wrote:
dantezebu wrote:So it would not surprise me that GM and KM made sure that Madeleines body could not be found by the dogs. But didn't realise at the time of disposal that the body leaves a trail that lasts a very long time, and is resistant to even clinical cleaning.
EXACTLY.

They underestimated the dogs big time. After the very meticulous clean up they assumed that all traces would be 'whooshed'.

Wrong.

Then to to try and discredit the dogs with smelly seabass porkies is just LUDICROUS.
They only did this re the sea-bass when they had done their research and had the eureka moment when they discovered that there are rather vague similarities to this 9 day old rotting fish and cadaverine. There are other similarities with other secretions but not as uppper class to speak of, but sea-bass, wow ticked the cadaverine box and the upper middle class box too, oh the joy in Rothley Manor that day.

Fascinating comment Nina.

I'd be interested to know what a 'lower class' secretion similar to cadaverine might be.
If a description is at risk of being a bit 'delicate' or might disturb someone about to tuck into their dinner, would you please P.M. me.

Am always wishing to learn, and you, with your medical background, have often got your finger on the pulse.  big grin  friends 

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by fossey on 14.06.14 13:30

@Miraflores wrote:It would have been a lot easier for them to declare that Kate had taken a liking to sea bass, perhaps as some sort of health kick, instead of the claims that she had been around 6 dead bodies in the weeks before her holiday.

Incidentally, who is it who made that claim?
What, the claim about Kate the part time GP and Cuddlecat attending to 6 dead bodies just prior to the 2007 Portugal holiday or the claim that Sean developed a strict Seabass diet in the days after the dogs signalled..?

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by PeterMac on 14.06.14 13:30

dantezebu wrote:
ASAIK cadaver dogs and their uses were not taught in medical school historically, they may well be now, but I would seriously doubt if they were back in the early 1990's. Forensic medicine as an undergraduate is usually only a two week block. .

16 "Cadaver dogs– a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares."
Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N,
Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.
Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany.
Forensic Sci Int. 2008 Jan 15;174(1):35-9

17 Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried
human remains in the southeastern United States.
Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-
0210, USA.
J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.

18 The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human
remains: preliminary field test results.
Komar D.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.
J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.

These were only the three most relevant abstracts I found when I was doing the research.
Gerry MUST have come across them, they popped up on a simple google search, so it remains a mystery why Kate wrote what she did in the autobiography Exhibit KH 1

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Re: Tony was right was he not?

Post by galena on 14.06.14 15:28

Wasn't Gerry a bit of true crime fan (like myself)?  I have a vague memory of this being discussed some time in the past ...

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