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Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by SixMillionQuid on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:02 pm

@CynicAl wrote:Sorry, but its completely normal for witnesses to mundane events to connect them to a major incident nearby. 

Smithman was out carrying a child like a father would at night in a tourist resort. He might have been rude and ignored people who spoke to him, but that's not a crime. Most people, other than busybodies, would file that away as irrelevent. And even if a kidnap had just been reported, I for one would not equate father-looking-guy and his sleepy daughter as the suspect making a getaway. Who would ever rationally conceive of kidnappers wandering through the streets with sleeping children? Kidnappers have getaway vehicles. 

That's why Crimewatch even exists... To appeal to the people who were around the area at the time to jog their memories for mundane details, and the people calling in are doing EXACTLY what the Smith's did. No illogical, irrational conspiracy theory required.
If the event was so mundane why report it all?

EDIT: maybe it wasn't that mundane at all as one of the Smiths attempted to make conversation with this individual and received no response.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by dentdelion on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:26 pm

 maybe it wasn't that mundane at all as one of the Smiths attempted to make conversation with this individual and received no response


That is assuming he spoke English... and maybe he did not want to engage in conversation and disturb a  sleeping child, understandable.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Watching on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:40 pm

@dentdelion wrote: maybe it wasn't that mundane at all as one of the Smiths attempted to make conversation with this individual and received no response


That is assuming he spoke English... and maybe he did not want to engage in conversation and disturb a  sleeping child, understandable.

And if it was Mr carrying Maddie - if he opened his fat mouth, the thick Glaswegian whining voice/accent, once heard, never forgotten - he wouldn't chance it, not even with short response to Mrs Smith

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by BlueBag on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:01 pm

If Gerry was carrying Madeleine at that point, where does that leave the blue sports bag?

The blue sports bag is the key.

It is my belief it was contaminated and that's what the dog picked up in the wardrobe.

The McCanns don't like questions about the bag.

Try asking them.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by russiandoll on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:09 pm

When would Mr Smith have been aware from media reports that the little girl who had been abducted was dressed similarly to the child he saw, that she was age 3/4 and fair haired, making him sit up and take notice, when he had until that point of awareness seen what he thought was a father and child?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:26 pm

@russiandoll wrote:When would Mr Smith have been aware from media reports that the little girl who had been abducted was dressed similarly to the child he saw, that she was age 3/4 and fair haired, making him sit up and take notice, when he had until that point of awareness seen what he thought was a father and child?
j.rob answered this up this same thread earlier this evening, as follows:

QUOTE j.rob

Ah. How interesting. Just digging around with timings here on the basis that timing is everything in life.

On 24th May 2007 the Portuguese police finally agree to an informal meeting with the McCanns at the British Consulate. 'To say that we were grateful to be given this 'special treatment (as it would be described by the Portuguese media) is a huge understatement' writes Kate on page 154 of Madeleine.

On 25th May 2007 the PJ finally release Jane's description of the man 'who in all probability carried Madeleine away'.

On 26th May 2007 Mr Smith goes to Portugal and gives a statement to police

UNQUOTE

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by sharonl on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:32 pm

Tony

Do we know at what point, Brian Kennedy contacted Martin Smith?

Who was present at this meeting?

Are there any other details?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by ultimaThule on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:33 pm

@BlueBag wrote:If Gerry was carrying Madeleine at that point, where does that leave the blue sports bag?

The blue sports bag is the key.

It is my belief it was contaminated and that's what the dog picked up in the wardrobe.

The McCanns don't like questions about the bag.

Try asking them.

Eddie's alert to cadaverine behind the sofa and by the wardrobe indicates that a dead body was at some time present in those locations, but it cannot be regarded as indication that death occurred in the apartment.  

If death occurred elsewhere, the blue bag may have been used to collect the body and transport it to 5A where it was first hidden behind the sofa and then placed in the bedroom, either by the wardrobe or in it, before its onward journey to another temporary hiding place prior to being transported in the Scenic to its final destination.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by kevmack on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:37 pm

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Mr Smith and his family are anything less than credible witnesses, and to be perfectly honest, this constant castigation (yes, I am using that word again)of the Smith's witness account,  is just totally unfair, and in MY OPINION  not based on anything, except an over analytical approach, which serves no purpose at all, except to create more confusion and detracts from what is known about the crime.

And I am already aware of the arguments for M Smith being a liar and as such have no need to have them repeated, but suffice it to say, that at this time, I have no reason to believe that Mr Smith and other members of his family did not give an honest account of what they had seen, albeit if they didn't make that report until they were all home in Ireland, and subsequently, the ID'ing of Gerry, until after the arguido status, simply because they had not seen Gerry in that particular situation until that day..well they had, but they didn't know it at the time. which I think is perfectly reasonable

And as for the whole Murat stuff, yes, Martin Smith probably had come across Murat on his visits to PdL, I come across people in my local environment all of the time..I don't know them as such, but I can say for certain, whether it was them or not, in the event of an incident, but while I could  say, yes, I saw a guy, but that guy, the one currently suspected of being involved (remember Murat was made a suspect early days), Well it's definitely not him..does not mean I know him, or am trying to cover up for him in any way..just that yes, I've seen him around, and recognise him, but the guy I saw that night with the kid..defo not him...

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:42 pm

@sharonl wrote:Tony

Do we know at what point, Brian Kennedy contacted Martin Smith?

Who was present at this meeting?

Are there any other details?
The recent Sunday Times article informed us that Henri Exton, former Head of Undercover Operations at MI5, visited the Smiths in Ireland and drew up the e-fits, here's an extract:

“It was immediately clear that two sightings of vital importance had been reported to the police. Two men were seen carrying children near the apartments between 9pm, when Madeleine was last seen by Gerry, and 10pm, when Kate discovered her missing…The second sighting was by Martin Smith and his family from Ireland, who saw a man carrying a child near the apartment just before 10pm. The earlier Tanner sighting had always been treated as the most significant, but the Oakley team controversially poured cold water on her account. Instead, they focused on the Smith sighting, travelling to Ireland to interview the family and produce E-Fits of the man they saw. Their report said the Smiths were “helpful and sincere” and concluded: “The Smith sighting is credible evidence of a sighting of Maddie and more credible than Jane Tanner’s sighting”. The evidence had been “neglected for too long” and an “overemphasis placed on Tanner”.

Could the Smiths have produced these 2 e-fits? Of course not, they are e-fits of two different blokes, and in any case none of the Smiths, on their own admission, could have seen his face prroperly. It was

10.00pm
dark
poor street lighting
only saw him for a couple of seconds
admitted they would never recognise him again
etc. etc.

So although we cannot believe that the Smiths drew up these e-fits, I judge it likely that Exton is telling the truth in saying he visited the Smiths in Ireland.

We know Exton was part of a team of at least three people working under the Oakley International umbrella, Exton, Kevin Halligen, and Tom Craig-Harvey.

We know that they were hired by Brian Kennedy on behalf of the McCann Team.

So clearly this was a Brian Kennedy planned operation; what I can't recall is whether we know if Kennedy himself either spoke on the 'phone to, or visited, the Smiths.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:52 pm

@kevmack wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Mr Smith and his family are anything less than credible witnesses, and to be perfectly honest, this constant castigation (yes, I am using that word again) of the Smithss witness account, is just totally unfair, and in MY OPINION not based on anything, except an over analytical approach...
The whole rationale of this forum is to analyse all aspects of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and many lies have already been told surrounding this case. The success of this forum, now attracting tens of thousands of visits every day, is substantially down to the quality of the information, research,  analysis and comment to be found here - thanks to the forum owner and the Mods.

All aspects of the 'Smith sighting' are being discussed here, and rightly so IMO, given that one of the Met's top police officers has told the nation unequivocally that he is the top suspect for having abducted Madeleine McCann.

Your appeal sounds a bit like: "Mr Smith said somehting. I believe him 100%. I am not even going to discuss the subject. And neither should anyone else". It is an attempt to close down free debate

Better, surely, to let a robust debate range widely, and see where the balance of the argument rests?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by kevmack on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:57 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@kevmack wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Mr Smith and his family are anything less than credible witnesses, and to be perfectly honest, this constant castigation (yes, I am using that word again) of the Smithss witness account, is just totally unfair, and in MY OPINION not based on anything, except an over analytical approach...
The whole rationale of this forum is to analyse all aspects of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and many lies have already been told surrounding this case. The success of this forum, now attracting tens of thousands of visits every day, is substantially down to the quality of the information, research,  analysis and comment to be found here - thanks to the forum owner and the Mods.

All aspects of the 'Smith sighting' are being discussed here, and rightly so IMO, given that one of the Met's top police officers has told the nation unequivocally that he is the top suspect for having abducted Madeleine McCann.

Your appeal sounds a bit like: "Mr Smith said somehting. I believe him 100%. I am not even going to discuss the subject. And neither should anyone else". It is an attempt to close down free debate

Better, surely, to let a robust debate range widely, and see where the balance of the argument rests?
No Tony, I have read all of your arguments, and I disagree with you, and there is little room for debate, you have your opinion based on the way you have interpreted the information and other people, myself included have their opinion, based on their/my interpretation of the available information, and there is nothing currently to change my opinion, and the facts, over the years, have not changed, so I do not see myself, changing my opinion, any time soon.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:00 pm

@j.rob wrote:Just digging around with timings here on the basis that timing is everything in life.

On 24th May 2007 the Portuguese police finally agree to an informal meeting with the McCanns at the British Consulate. 'To say that we were grateful to be given this 'special treatment (as it would be described by the Portuguese media) is a huge understatement' writes Kate on page 154 of Madeleine.

On 25th May 2007 the PJ finally release Jane's description of the man 'who in all probability carried Madeleine away'.

On 26th May 2007 Mr Smith goes to Portugal and gives a statement to police

So how come, in her book, Kate writes that Jane's description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements?

'Every time I read these independent statements in the files (and neither could have influenced the other, remember - Jane's description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements.)'
You have brought a very significant factual issue to the forum, j.rob, thank you.

Clearly Kate made a bad mistake in this passage.

She got her dates wring.

Clearly, before any of the Smith family made their statements, they already knew what the description of the abductor was.

Clearly, this provides a rational explanation for why the descriptions of Tannerman and Smithman were near-identical, with as many has 17 similarities between them. The Smiths copied the existing description.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:02 pm

@kevmack wrote:
there is little room for debate
You must be joking!

Only now are we getting to the heart of the matter - how come the description of Smithman was near-identical to that of Tannerman?

What is the answer to that?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:04 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
there is little room for debate
You must be joking!

Only now are we getting to the heart of the matter - how come the description of Smithman was near-identical to that of Tannerman?

What is the answer to that?

'Some other reason (what?)' it would appear.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by notlongnow on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:07 pm

Find it hard to believe anyone would vouch for someone in a potential abduction of a small child.
I wouldn't do that for a good friend let alone someone who you see now and again in bars.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by kevmack on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:13 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
there is little room for debate
You must be joking!

Only now are we getting to the heart of the matter - how come the description of Smithman was near-identical to that of Tannerman?

What is the answer to that?
Because Jane Tanner possibly did see Gerry remove Madeleine, in fact she could have been a look out, she inadvertently described, mostly Gerry, because that was what her inner mind was telling her, but she then remembered and changed it enough, longer hair, eventually morphing to full on George Harrison look a like, who of course is nothing like Gerry.

M Smith and his family, also saw Gerry carrying Madeleine, only they had no need to lie, so they described him as they remembered him..minus the long hair, mustache etc...I mean come on...comedy mustache, what the heck was Tanner thinking, talk about the archetypal bad guy

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by CynicAl on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:16 pm

@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@CynicAl wrote:Sorry, but its completely normal for witnesses to mundane events to connect them to a major incident nearby. 

Smithman was out carrying a child like a father would at night in a tourist resort. He might have been rude and ignored people who spoke to him, but that's not a crime. Most people, other than busybodies, would file that away as irrelevent. And even if a kidnap had just been reported, I for one would not equate father-looking-guy and his sleepy daughter as the suspect making a getaway. Who would ever rationally conceive of kidnappers wandering through the streets with sleeping children? Kidnappers have getaway vehicles. 

That's why Crimewatch even exists... To appeal to the people who were around the area at the time to jog their memories for mundane details, and the people calling in are doing EXACTLY what the Smith's did. No illogical, irrational conspiracy theory required.
If the event was so mundane why report it all?

EDIT: maybe it wasn't that mundane at all as one of the Smiths attempted to make conversation with this individual and received no response.
They're in a foreign country, in a tourist town and at 10pm in partial daylight spark up a passing conversation a guy hurrying to carry his sleeping daughter home. 

Is he:

(a) not an english speaker
(b) too rushed to be bothered trying to be polite
(c) hoping his daughter doesn't get disturbed
(d) suspicious of boisterous Irish people
(e) all of the above
(f) a kidnapper forcibly stealing a child from a random tourist's apartment 
(g) a murderer/sex offender carrying his victim to a piece of wasteland for disposal

I'll be honest, both at home and abroad I've been on both ends of that scenario, and received as well as given every shade of response. My mood isn't always Sunshine and Roses. I have never once associated the other person with a vile crime or dwelt on their response long enough to desire reportingthis person to the police. 

Why raise it at all? Because hindsight can be a peculiar thing. Because playing something over in your mind when you don't need to can shift your perspective. Because human beings aren't predictable automatons.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by ShuBob on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 pm

@notlongnow wrote:Find it hard to believe anyone would vouch for someone in a potential abduction of a small child.
I wouldn't do that for a good friend let alone someone who you see now and again in bars.

Who vouched for who?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by notlongnow on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:22 pm

If as some feel smith vouched for RM.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by CynicAl on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:26 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@j.rob wrote:Just digging around with timings here on the basis that timing is everything in life.

On 24th May 2007 the Portuguese police finally agree to an informal meeting with the McCanns at the British Consulate. 'To say that we were grateful to be given this 'special treatment (as it would be described by the Portuguese media) is a huge understatement' writes Kate on page 154 of Madeleine.

On 25th May 2007 the PJ finally release Jane's description of the man 'who in all probability carried Madeleine away'.

On 26th May 2007 Mr Smith goes to Portugal and gives a statement to police

So how come, in her book, Kate writes that Jane's description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements?

'Every time I read these independent statements in the files (and neither could have influenced the other, remember - Jane's description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements.)'
You have brought a very significant factual issue to the forum, j.rob, thank you.

Clearly Kate made a bad mistake in this passage.

She got her dates wring.

Clearly, before any of the Smith family made their statements, they already knew what the description of the abductor was.

Clearly, this provides a rational explanation for why the descriptions of Tannerman and Smithman were near-identical, with as many has 17 similarities between them. The Smiths copied the existing description.
You repeatedly assert your interpretations with the use of 'clearly'. If it was so 'clear' no one would need you to point it out, surely? Or are we all super-dense, and need to be spoonfed an irrational and illogical narrative?

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by russiandoll on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Clearly, before any of the Smith family made their statements, they already knew what the description of the abductor was.

Clearly, this provides a rational explanation for why the descriptions of Tannerman and Smithman were near-identical, with as many has 17 similarities between them. The Smiths copied the existing description.

 
 That is one possibility. The other is that they then became aware that they had not seen an innocent father and child, but something linked to the abduction. So contacted the police. I find your assertions unclear and illogical.

Our views on this are irreconcilable and this is why CF said correctly the debate is pointless as it goes around in circles.

 my head hurts... off to discuss elsewhere.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by ShuBob on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:28 pm

@notlongnow wrote:If as some feel smith vouched for RM.

As far as I know, Mr Smith said the man he and his family saw that night wasn't Murat.

I wouldn't call that vouching even using the loosest of translations for the word.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by View-from-Ireland on Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:00 am

If anything the Smith sighting discredited the Tanner sighting as people always questioned why the man would be walking around with the child 45 minutes later.

I think it's quite clear from the website and everything we have seen from the McCanns over the years that the Smith sighting is something that never sat easily with them. 

As for the Smiths themselves, two points. 

One, if it's a fabrication they must have had a very good reason to lie. Who were they covering for, Murat? Possibly, but I personally don't see this myself as I feel Murat wasn't involved in the McCann plot and I trust the Smith version of the sighting. I can't imagine Martin Smith sat his family down and told them what they were supposed to have seen,imo they saw it.

Two. They certainly were not helpful to the McCanns, that is certain. Smith in the September of 2007 drew attention to the fact that the man he saw resembled Gerry. Surely if Smith had invented Smithman to get Murat off the hook, he wouldn't feel the need several months later to stir things up further by revealing that having seen Gerry on tv, there was a close resemblance to the man he and his family passed on the night of the disappearance. 

It has been the McCanns who have confused this issue, not the Smiths. The McCanns tried to hone in on the similarities with Tannerman (alter Tannerman so that he was less Gerry like). Think about it, why would Smith have introduced the possibility Smithman was Gerry months later if he had invented the sighting to help Murat? He would have kept quiet as the job would have been done by then.

I think the Smith sighting is genuine and is something that is rightfully being focused on after years of the McCanns elevating Tannerman.

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Re: Why I believe Smithman is real and likely to be Gerry by Pat Brown

Post by Halfwit on Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:47 am

I agree with CynicAl and View-from-Ireland.

I believe the Smiths reported what they briefly saw. I live in a small Spanish town (I call it a village) and in general at all times of day or night when you pass someone in an otherwise empty street you generally acknowledge each other. Sometimes I forget and don't because I have things on my mind.

As previous posters have said, the fact that the 12 year old girl noticed the buttons on the man's trousers is exactly the sort of detail that a girl of that age would be looking at. Smith parents in a relaxed mood would be doing the accepted thing and looking at the passer-by to give a brief acknowledgement.

I see nothing suspicious about their report.

Even if anyone ever gets to the root of this business I think it's utterly ridiculous to cast aspersions on this family who witnessed a passerby and reported their experience.

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