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Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:19

@russiandoll wrote:Imo phone traffic analysis has played a large part in why the police are searching particular locations and it is to do with a man speaking his native English.

OK. Here's another wild thought (not wild at all, if you knew some of the people I've known)...

Connecting the dots, of a case that the PJ have investigated to a logical conclusion, but lack the complete evidence to secure a conviction... IIRC one of the brick walls that the PJ hit (and also IIRC SY were advising them early on to watch the T9, gruesome twosome especially) was that of obtaining phone records.

What if... and it's a big what if...

What if the calls WERE all recorded? What if they WERE captured? What if they were the property of another agency altogether? What if there was an organisation which routinely monitored phone calls in and out of southern Spain and other 'interesting' regions inhabited by the wealthy and the criminalistic alike, particularly ones conducted in English language, and captured recordings of those calls in giant servers, flagging some for computer analysis, and others for escalated human intervention? What if that organisation had already been acknowledged publicly (news media) for their contribution to catching a British organised criminal who had fled justice and was living in Malaga, wanted by the police (really, really wanted), and who was captured directly as a result of that agency having been able to identify his voice, through computer analysis, or a telephone call from a mobile phone that was unsecured, in English? What if that organisation was based at one of the most controversial and secretive 'facilities' in Europe, located in North Yorkshire? What if their involvement in certain cases was only revealed courtesy of them being made a matter of record in the smallprint of court transcripts of successful prosecutions, after the fact? What if their involvement was SO sensitive because it involved the routine capture of masses of conversations as a matter of course, rather than any process of linetapping arising from a judicial process? What if they were not a law enforcement agency, and they possessed information which could give law enforcement agencies hints, where the case was important enough, of how close on the trail they were, or what lines they should go down, in order to find more solid, court-admissable evidence which was not in and of itself grounds for a public controversy or a diplomatic incident?

What if Big Brother was watching?

What if Big Brother told Little Brother that he was warm and getting warmer, but just couldn't give him the printout of the map to prove it? What if someone said 'we can confirm you're on the right lines, now all you have to do is get clever enough to find a way to prove it?'

I know what you'll say...

You'll say 'No Such Agency.'

And of course, officially, informally, in terms of what is possible and what is really happening, you'd be right.

But what a dream...

What a fantasy...

What if they really DID have the phone evidence to pin a tail on the donkey, but they just couldn't use it?

PDA (pretty damned accurate) geolocation would come in really useful, wouldn't it? Oh, but what a panic if every mal-intentional citizen were to ever think that his phone conversations could have been recorded long before he was ever in the frame for a crime that he might have been involved in?

In fact, the panic in general, for people wanting to do all kind of well-intentioned, democratically autonomous things, like voting, protesting, discussing business, speculating, ranting and raving, cursing Queen and Country, whistleblowing... To imagine for a moment that all your phone calls were like content on some state of the art catch-up TV service. Could any government be so calculating as to anticipate the need to be able to do that to their own people's calls? To envisage the day when law enforcement could pick up a suspect, sit them in a room and say 'what did you say in that call you made... no... no need to answer that... let me just play it back for you.'

And if... IF they had that, do you think they'd be in a hurry to reveal such a thing going on? Or would it be better off being a little diplomatic secret weapon between allies? After all, it is illegal for a European to routinely surveille a European, or a Brit a Brit... But a citizen of a non-EU nation, working for a non-EU organisation could surely be exempt from the rules, no?

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.06.14 13:22

@Naz_Nomad wrote:
@j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....
 Philip Green, Richard Branson, Brian Kennedy....You don't get to be a billionaire by being honest.

I know English is not your first language.

Surely you meant Philip Greene, Richard Branston and Brien Kennedy?

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by FH on 06.06.14 13:22

Did it say anywhere that the woman saw him entering/leaving the scrub?"

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms."

I thought perhaps the entering/leaving the scrub came from phone pings.




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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by Okeydokey on 06.06.14 13:23

@endgame wrote:
@Cheshire Cat wrote:Another article which I feel merits its own thread. It's another one of those 'unhelpful' articles.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers.html

English Police say that Maddie McCann assassins are Portuguese and are involved in drug trafficking

by Tânia Laranjo/Rui Pando Gomes

They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking. The English police states that they assaulted the apartment at the Ocean Club resort, in Lagos, and killed Madeleine McCann on 3 May 2007.

The phone calls made before and after the crime were used as evidence to support the searches that have been ongoing since Monday.

Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver.

They want to hear the three suspects, but they still lack the evidence to support the claim.

“Those who are going to commit a robbery do not travel on foot and they will not abandon a body so close to the crime scene. Moreover, there were no signs of forced entry at the apartment”, said Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the case and considers that this new theory is not credible.

This version is, incidentally, one among others contained in the letter rogatory which determined that the searches would take place. Though it is the strongest, the British open the door to other possibilities. Other five suspects are listed, they also have a criminal record for theft. 

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms.

in Correio da Manhã, June 6, 2014
I don't know why this story is receiving so little attention and comment. If true [big if as always], it is the most significant statement on the case in months. It takes you right to the heart of the SY investigation, requests for info etc. and drives a complete coach and horses through all the theories that SY are pursuing some master strategy to catch the McCanns. It says quite clearly that they have evolved a theory of bungled robbery [their "strongest"] and are now looking for evidence to fit that theory. That is the whole purpose of their being in PdL right now. It supports all those who believe either that this is a whitewash or that AR is a complete dingbat thrashing around and completely out of his depth. It also strongly shows that the investigation has got absolutely nowhere in the last three years and that all the whacky stories one keeps reading in the tabloids are actually the mainstream thinking of SY. Time may yet tell that everything that AR is reported to have said and done shoud be taken at face value and not assumed to be part of the cleverest deception ever practiced by a serving policeman.

Complete correct!  No way can this be held to support the McCann Master Strategy theory. 

This is diversion with a capital D.  If they can look at these suspects on such flimsy "evidence" why are they restricting their inquiries so much.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by Naz_Nomad on 06.06.14 13:28

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Naz_Nomad wrote:
@j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....
 Philip Green, Richard Branson, Brian Kennedy....You don't get to be a billionaire by being honest.

I know English is not your first language.

Surely you meant Philip Greene, Richard Branston and Brien Kennedy?

English is my first language, but yes, I meant those people, as the first three are 100% honest and trustworthy chaps.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by NickE on 06.06.14 13:30

Can one of the drug dealers be Serg** Mali**a?

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by Naz_Nomad on 06.06.14 13:32

@CynicAl wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:Imo phone traffic analysis has played a large part in why the police are searching particular locations and it is to do with a man speaking his native English.

OK. Here's another wild thought (not wild at all, if you knew some of the people I've known)...

Connecting the dots, of a case that the PJ have investigated to a logical conclusion, but lack the complete evidence to secure a conviction... IIRC one of the brick walls that the PJ hit (and also IIRC SY were advising them early on to watch the T9, gruesome twosome especially) was that of obtaining phone records.

What if... and it's a big what if...

What if the calls WERE all recorded? What if they WERE captured? What if they were the property of another agency altogether? What if there was an organisation which routinely monitored phone calls in and out of southern Spain and other 'interesting' regions inhabited by the wealthy and the criminalistic alike, particularly ones conducted in English language, and captured recordings of those calls in giant servers, flagging some for computer analysis, and others for escalated human intervention? What if that organisation had already been acknowledged publicly (news media) for their contribution to catching a British organised criminal who had fled justice and was living in Malaga, wanted by the police (really, really wanted), and who was captured directly as a result of that agency having been able to identify his voice, through computer analysis, or a telephone call from a mobile phone that was unsecured, in English? What if that organisation was based at one of the most controversial and secretive 'facilities' in Europe, located in North Yorkshire? What if their involvement in certain cases was only revealed courtesy of them being made a matter of record in the smallprint of court transcripts of successful prosecutions, after the fact? What if their involvement was SO sensitive because it involved the routine capture of masses of conversations as a matter of course, rather than any process of linetapping arising from a judicial process? What if they were not a law enforcement agency, and they possessed information which could give law enforcement agencies hints, where the case was important enough, of how close on the trail they were, or what lines they should go down, in order to find more solid, court-admissable evidence which was not in and of itself grounds for a public controversy or a diplomatic incident?

What if Big Brother was watching?

What if Big Brother told Little Brother that he was warm and getting warmer, but just couldn't give him the printout of the map to prove it? What if someone said 'we can confirm you're on the right lines, now all you have to do is get clever enough to find a way to prove it?'

I know what you'll say...

You'll say 'No Such Agency.'

And of course, officially, informally, in terms of what is possible and what is really happening, you'd be right.

But what a dream...

What a fantasy...

What if they really DID have the phone evidence to pin a tail on the donkey, but they just couldn't use it?

PDA (pretty damned accurate) geolocation would come in really useful, wouldn't it? Oh, but what a panic if every mal-intentional citizen were to ever think that his phone conversations could have been recorded long before he was ever in the frame for a crime that he might have been involved in?

In fact, the panic in general, for people wanting to do all kind of well-intentioned, democratically autonomous things, like voting, protesting, discussing business, speculating, ranting and raving, cursing Queen and Country, whistleblowing... To imagine for a moment that all your phone calls were like content on some state of the art catch-up TV service. Could any government be so calculating as to anticipate the need to be able to do that to their own people's calls? To envisage the day when law enforcement could pick up a suspect, sit them in a room and say 'what did you say in that call you made... no... no need to answer that... let me just play it back for you.'

And if... IF they had that, do you think they'd be in a hurry to reveal such a thing going on? Or would it be better off being a little diplomatic secret weapon between allies? After all, it is illegal for a European to routinely surveille a European, or a Brit a Brit... But a citizen of a non-EU nation, working for a non-EU organisation could surely be exempt from the rules, no?

Not Sure About that. Could I Ask someone else?

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.06.14 13:33

Would this be the same three drug dealers that might of been IN 5A  the PREVIOUS night but didn't take anything?

Who made Maddie and Sean cry?

Who then came BACK the next night, because they wouldn't possibly be seen by anyone, THAT night.

Wonder WHY 'they' didn't take a child on the previous night (Wednesday) when they might actually have been in the kids room with NO 'parents, babysitters,or 'friends' there?

But RISKED being 'caught' the next night.

 thinking thinking 

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:34

@riskybuisness wrote:If drugs are in the equation.  Then may be that's how she dies by accidentally getting hold of them.  Now in "theory"  the group have a dead drugged infant - All who are involved are in it up to their necks - the dealers and any of the group for whom the drugs were for.  All would have to work together to get her out or loose everything.  Just a theory - sounds like a fiction plot for book. 

I have never thought that any of the group deliberately harmed her - off course I may be proved wrong.

Credible theory.

I speculated yesterday that the Mc's were 'enabled' by people on the ground, around the MC/OC business, who may have been privately organising certain types of activities with the help of 'travel agents' like RM and SM, which OC management turned a blind eye to because it brought numbers in at down season, making management look good. When something went tragically wrong, I speculated that someone somewhere, either a management beneficiary or the 'facilitators' themselves concluded that the matter needed clearing up PDQ, without management or corporate knowing about the what or the how of it... Perhaps indeed a plethora of individuals played large or small parts, through a web of need-to-know and plausible deniability, for not only personal financial gain (did GM or TM promise lots of bungs that then needed to be paid, hence the dearth of money for the mortgage and the need for a flowing fund of cash seemingly handed out by crooked PI's from Spain and the UK) but also to evade culpability, prosecution, loss of job, or the addition of 'covered up accidental death and helped dispose of a body and commit massive fraud while lying to the police all on company property, company time and as salaried employees' to their 'reason for leaving last job' in their CV.

After all, you only have to watch late night television to see that so many of these holiday resorts in Yahoo Johnny suntrap destinations across the Mediterranean region are continually living on the edge of complete and utter recklessness as they facilitate and encourage the kind of rampant orgy of sex and alcohol (and drugs) that is ubiquitous in those places. It isn't hard to imagine a bunch of enterprising 'reps' hatching some kind of a Hollywood 'stoner/college' movie plot plan to draw in a 'special' class of tourist, with the nod and the wink of some young thing who likes the idea that they too might get to cop off with some fit older person with no strings attached for a 'bit of fun', and then when something goes wrong, who do they turn to short of going home disgraced and facing criminal charges? The local gangsters and dealers and petty thieves, the people who they know are always up for earning a bit of extra cash or doing a bit of extra business.

Not remotely far fetched. In fact, far more likely than imagining the CIA or MI5 were swarming the ground covering up some heavyweight political pedophile.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:36

@Naz...

You can phone a friend, but be careful what you say. big grin

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:38

@Naz_Nomad wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Naz_Nomad wrote:
@j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....
.

I know English is not your first language.

?

English is my first language, but yes, I meant those people, as the first three are 100% honest and trustworthy chaps.
Ah yes... Richard Branston, the pickle magnate... Sinister bugger.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by woodforthetrees on 06.06.14 13:42

Branson made his first chunk of money copying tapes and selling them to the public through street sellers after finding a loophole in the copyright laws back in the late 80s and 90's

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:48

@Mirage wrote:I believe the press are ushering in a new era of unemployment for themselves. Editors clearly never read "The boy who cried wolf" as children. Nor did they heed the truism that the British are slow to anger.

I sense newspapers will pay in the pocket for misleading and misinforming the British public. And I don't want to hear any whining about being muzzled later on. If you are prevented from publishing the truth, the answer is certainly not to publish lies.

Eta  I realise the OP is an article in CdM.

Of course, just as SY and PJ could be playing games with TM, the media could be playing games with Leveson...

After all, if NOTW did hack TM, and they DID get incriminating information that cannot be admissible in court, and if NC/RB DID try to butter up G&K to get close enough to get their numbers and their movements in advance and make them easy targets, and G&K DID screw them royally over Hackgate, and the media have been CR'd en masse, and the message that they want to send is that this country needs to see an end to press censorship, and make high profile targets fair game for intrusive investigation and surveillance, with the evidence gathered by media being made admissible in court, and oh how the unscrupulous media is now justified, even in gossip columns, for putting known heinous buggers through the wringer...

Well...

I'd actually expect them to have an unwritten agreement to print voluminous amounts of effervescent scheisse just to prove the point that once the direction of the media is thrown away or hampered, it becomes useless and frustrating to the public, but will print lies and bollocks as long as they support their right to sell media content to the people who don't believe the official lines.

At this stage, there's a whole lot of things that are possible, and all of them resemble pragmatic responses to frustrating situations, the far more likely truth than some elaborate high-level over-arching conspiracy theory involving nuclear secrets, pedophiles, nuclear pedophiles, government ministers, nuclear ministers for government pedophiles or the House of Windsor and their reptilian hordes.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:50

@woodforthetrees wrote:Branson made his first chunk of money copying tapes and selling them to the public through street sellers after finding a loophole in the copyright laws back in the late 80s and 90's
No, no... BransTon who made his first chunk of onion and apple into a nice sweet pickle which sold like hot cakes in small glass jars and made him popular nationally.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by woodforthetrees on 06.06.14 13:51

ha ha CynicAl, very good  big grin

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by CynicAl on 06.06.14 13:52

@canada12 wrote:
@CynicAl wrote:They were obviously pitifully poor at drug trafficking. The idea that the numerous traffickers operating across the water from North Africa would do business with anyone who used a traceable, trackable mobile phone before, during and after the kind of crime that would bring entirely the wrong kind of attention is laughable. That the three are even still alive after word of their hobby got out in the criminal fraternity of drug traffickers who are, in that part of the world, largely Muslim or Catholic, nominally at least, with likely qualms about the random murder of children as an evening pastime is nothing short of miraculous. 

They were also terrible burglars it seems... Sod the valuables, take a kid. No? Oh right, the kid was dead. Take a dead kid. Hmmm. That doesn't work either. Ok, they must have made the kid dead... And then took the body... Because a missing kid is less shocking than a dead one when mum and dad stagger home from the bar, right? Errr, wrong. No, so if we take the kid, bury it, clean the place up and no one will know we were ever there and no one will come looking for us! Right... Apart from the missing kid, who is missing, with everyone out looking for them... Screw it... I'm out here carrying this dead kid - god, she's getting heavier - and looking for somewhere to dump her... Now, where... Oh sh1t... Is that a bunch of tourists coming? They sound like they have an Irish accent... What do I do? What do I do? What did the boss say to do? Let me think... Rule 1, don't make any phone calls, rule 2, if you get spotted don't do anything to draw attention to yourself, operate like you're in disguise... I know, I'll just give him a ring and ask where he thinks I should take her... But I'll do it in english so those Irish people won't know what I'm saying...

Wait, wait, I'll have to abandon this dead kid NOW. I can't go back to my two pals with her. Maybe I can take her back to the flat I took her from. I left the shutters open. Should be easy. In the same way I climbed out. And who's that English lady looking at me and making notes? She looks proper shifty. I think I'll just drop the kid here on this wasteland and hope she doesn't notice. Damn. She's seen me. I'm leaving. I need a pee. I think there's a loo at the Ocean Club...

You mean the guy frantically searching round the hillside muttering 'I'm sure there was a pit round here somewhere... used to play in it as a kid... where the hell is iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit' before disappearing from view.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by jhansigirl on 06.06.14 14:03

Could it possibly be a 'new' sighting from a different evening?

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by AndyB on 06.06.14 14:23

@CynicAl wrote:At this stage, there's a whole lot of things that are possible, and all of them resemble pragmatic responses to frustrating situations, the far more likely truth than some elaborate high-level over-arching conspiracy theory involving nuclear secrets, pedophiles, nuclear pedophiles, government ministers, nuclear ministers for government pedophiles or the House of Windsor and their reptilian hordes.
:-)
That made me smile. Nevertheless, your theory is predicated on nothing more than your imagination and relies on News International being a force for the common good, which is something I think a lot of people will struggle to accept. At least the other theories that you mock have the virtue of having some sort of evidence to back them up:

  1. Gerry was involved with COMARE, which wrote a report on the safety of nuclear power stations that directly contradicted a similar German report
  2. Kate & Gerry have told us all along that paedophilia was involved "She's been taken by paedophiles"
  3. The Gasper statements
  4. Tom Watson MP has claimed that there is evidence of a high profile paedophile ring that leads all the way back to no. 10 and which the Met are allegedly investigating Half way down this page
  5. The Met are currently accused of not investing high profile paedophiles because of who they are. Exaro article

Admittedly, there is no connection between 2/3 and 4/5. The shape shifting reptile thing is almost certainly nonsense but I don't recall reading anyone on here seriously suggesting it as a possibility (and I suspect was just included for its comic value)

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by MRNOODLES on 06.06.14 15:49

Ah but what if by sheer coincidence a Portuguese were in of a drug trafficking surveillance operation. E.G these shadowery people lurking at the bottom of stair wells etc. They indeed saw and had valuble information for the McCanns' case, but at the time couldn't say anything because they were undercover.

What if there was a sort of cover up. But McCanns got lucky by way of coincidence.

Just a thought the crossed my mind.

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Re: Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Post by ProfessorPPlum on 08.06.14 18:13

CynicAl - excellent rationalisation back there on p5 (iPhone makes quoting and snipping impossible!). You're absolutely right, a live patsy would be a very bad choice for a whitewash or, for that matter, an earnest but doltish hypothesis by SY. It's fascinating to be at a point in time where all three possibilities seem to be coexisting: that SY is corrupt and protecting the McCanns, that they are well-meaning but completely inept or they are stalking the McCanns with patience and cunning as they build a case that strong enough to prosecute with. The trouble is no one single explanation works: there is evidence of all three mixed together. 

And maybe that is how this will go: a mixture of corruption, decency, ineptitude and skill that totally confuses and frustrates the armchair analyst. On balance though the one thing this doesn't look like to me is 'whitewash' and that's because it's not possible for it to be one because too much is in the public domain thanks to the PJ. 

Ignoring the media all we're left with are some striking turns of events: the transition from a live Maddie (and therefore fund source for the McCanns) to a dead Maddie. The re-opening of the Portuguese and UK investigations (when a whitewash would have closed one or both down)...and last but not least the ringing silence from the pink orifice. 

I have no idea what's going on other that to back up CynicAl in saying that there will be good reason both for the searches ongoing and the Portuguese permission to do them.

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