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Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 1:36

I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by canada12 on 04.06.14 1:49

Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

How do we know they haven't? :-)

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by 1soapy on 04.06.14 2:07

Nice idea regarding these dogs re-tracing Eddie and Keela. If there is nothing, time may have erroded anything, but if detected and in any or some identical places (which could prompt a wider search coverage not done before around the flats), then this is excellent confirmation - if any were needed.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Varriott on 04.06.14 3:24


Thanks for that, and thanks Tony as well.  This reads like 99% nonsense, but I feel nostalgic reading it again.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by jeanmonroe on 04.06.14 3:27

Just a quickie.

WHY are the police 'focussed' on the 'snail'?

Smiths never saw 'Smithman' in/at that 'location.' did they?

Why are the police THERE rather than, say, the nearer to OC apartments, 'three football pitches' size 'wasteland'?

Have the dogs been used on the road where the 'roadworks' were being 'dug' in 2007?

Not such good photo 'opportunities', i'll grant you.

No Andy 'on high' like on the 'snail'

SOMETHING'S 'not quite right' imo.

I'd have thought they would have started at/IN 5A and 'worked outwards'

They would eventually (possibly in under an hour) have 'arrived' at the 'snail' wouldn't they?

"look here, not there'?

I know nothing about ERVD dogs, can they differentiate between 'cadaver' odours, or do cadaver 'odours' all 'smell' the same?

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Varriott on 04.06.14 3:47

@jeanmonroe wrote:Just a quickie.

WHY are the police 'focussed' on the 'snail'?

Smiths never saw 'Smithman' in/at that 'location.' did they?

Why are the police THERE rather than, say, the nearer to OC apartments, 'three football pitches' size 'wasteland'?

Apparently, it is easier to search waste-land than in-use private property, which requires a search warrant.  I can't help but speculate if all those leaks about mobile phone activity put someone of interest on the 'snail' on May 3rd.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Bishop Brennan on 04.06.14 3:49

I wonder if we are getting too far ahead of ourselves? Could it be that AR and team are still pursuing their 3 burglars / tractorman leads and are now digging at locations where the mobile phone pings suggested they might have been on that night? It's such a major exercise though, that surely more would be required than that? But if so, the chances of finding anything other than perhaps a discarded bong are slim.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Varriott on 04.06.14 3:55

@Bishop Brennan wrote:I wonder if we are getting too far ahead of ourselves?  Could it be that AR and team are still pursuing their 3 burglars / tractorman leads and are now digging at locations where the mobile phone pings suggested they might have been on that night?  It's such a major exercise though, that surely more would be required than that?   But if so, the chances of finding anything other than perhaps a discarded bong are slim.

Let's get back to basics.  At the end of the day, coppers want to get bad guys.  There can only be one explanation for the cadaver scent alerts in apt 5A - in the closet, behind the sofa - and in the hire car, on Kate's clothes, the key fob, bible, cuddle cat.  Why would Scotland Yard perform this major operation unless they thought it would lead to evidence, unlike the dog alerts, that they could use in court?  I don't think whitewashes look like this, and I don't think police are professional time wasters.  I just can't believe they are fools.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by ultimaThule on 04.06.14 4:23

@jeanmonroe wrote:
< snip>

I know nothing about ERVD dogs, can they differentiate between 'cadaver' odours, or do cadaver 'odours' all 'smell' the same?

Corpses emit different odours at various stages of decomposition, but a human nose which has been exposed to the odour of an unembalmed week old corpse may not be able to detect the difference if subsequently exposed to the scent of an unembalmed month old corpse.  

As with any scent/perfume, it can take repeated exposure to unembalmed corpses of different ages before a human nose can detect  the 'top notes', as it were, from the lower ones and identify them correctly but, fortunately, there are other means of determining approximate date of death which allow the option of nose/mouth masks being worn when exhuming corpses and subjecting them to pathological examination. .

I copied and saved this piece some time ago from a forensic science website (which I can't now recall) and it goes to show how sophisticated the olfactory senses of canines are in comparison with our own:
"Cadaver Dogs
Also known as ‘decomp dogs’, these specially trained canines are trained to follow the scent of decomposing flesh in order to locate the bodies of deceased human beings. Whether the cadaver is on the surface, buried underground or under water, a dog’s nose is powerful enough to pick up the scent and trace it back to its source. Cadaver dogs can not only locate actual human remains, but also the location in which a corpse or body parts may have previously been stored by tracking down residual scents. Depending on the use of the cadaver dog, they will be trained to detect specific decomposition odours. For example, some may be trained to detect odours associated with the early stages of decomposition, whereas others may be required to locate older remains. Some dogs are specifically trained to detect dead bodies underwater, with the canine situated on a shoreline or boat. A newer concept is that of historical human remains detection dogs, which are trained to locate historical or archaeological graves."

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by CynicAl on 04.06.14 6:37

Dee Coy wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I don't know why we keep coming back to this :)  The DNA was Madeleine's, or at least a female child of Gerry and Kate that wasn't Amelie.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
Who verified that source sample and produced the results, WLBTS?

The Forensic Science Service.  What is your point, may I ask?  And do I need to don my tin hat?
 laughat Of course not! But that FSS? The one who 'lost' or contaminated the remaining samples of evidence provided by the PJ for analysis?  In a quite unprecedented way?

You can make a hat out of tinfoil like mine if you want. I'll provide the pencils for the nose. But seriously, if you were the PJ and you had one last piece of DNA evidence remaining, would you trust it to the (now disbanded) FSS? Oeir successors?

And another point. If Gerry had to return to he UK to find a sample of Maddie's DNA, it can only mean 2 of 3 things:

- The towel provided had incorrect DNA on it, so a misleading scent was given to the sniffers anyway, and

a)  The apartment had already been cleaned surgically to remove all traces. Or

b)  She was never in 5A.

Just conjecture,  again.

Take comfort. First, the PJ - GA particularly - have taken note of the discrepancies. They aren't fooled. Even if this latest round of investigation comes to nothing, they have the right to publish all the extra information, which could prove to be even more incriminating. Second, assuming the worst, that the DNA sample was not MBM's, just how many dead close relative's DNA puddles do you think there could be around PDL for the gruesome twosome?  Do you not think that such a detail would only serve to make them look even more guilty? The trickier and cockier they get, the more dangerous the game gets for them. This is unprecedented. Given that child killers aren't even safe in prison from hardened rapists and murderers, I don't fancy their chances at a safe and happy life if they manage to escape justice on a legal technicality.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by lj on 04.06.14 6:41

@HelenMeg wrote:Just read article page 20 of Times  -reporter states words to the effect of ' Mr Smith thought that man carrying the child resembled Mr McCann, but Mr McCann has been ruled out as a suspect.' 

Is this sloppy reporting by The Times or factual reporting by The Times. Either way, its reading things like this that makes me very pessimistic ....
Is it sloppy reporting? It is what Andy said.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by CynicAl on 04.06.14 7:07

IMO 5a will not be revisited forensically. 

Firstly, the work there is already done and a matter of record. The track record of Eddie & Keela after their deployment in PDL demonstrates a bankable certainty that their findings can be accepted at face value. The issue was always that at that time the trace forensics and the dog reactions were not enough to bag a safe conviction. They will almost inevitably be a contributor to a body of evidence. Equally the DNA samples are open to examination. There's nothing left to revisit in these locations. 

Secondly, you would not set aside the original results as 'flawed' and seven years later re-examine the same scene which has been left - in use and uncontrolled - for so long when it is possible, even likely, that interest groups could gain access and contaminate or purge the scene to confound future revisions of the forensic searches. 

I think SY and PJ have turned their attention to the near certainty of there being 'facilitators' on the ground in PDL, maybe even deceased black ones, and the wide display of publicised searching in various places across the area could well be to shake them loose, to get them paranoid, uncertain and perhaps even desperate enough to go clear up the scene of their own crime. Is it usual to have such robust 'overnight' security at forensic scenes rather than a blue tape and a couple of bobbies? You could be forgiven for thinking a trap was laid. I suspect they're looking at a perceived window of time and involvement of third parties perhaps between a T9 member making initial disposal (or arranging it) and the same T9 member taking custody of the body again to transport on to a more distant location which was necessitated by the Mc's realising they were suspects. The body could have been initially placed locally so that if discovered it would be easy to argue a crime of impulse by a stranger, but of course with no one looking for a body the window of opportunity extended. Under scrutiny the Mc's wouldh ave needed help at the very least to recover and move the body and/or dispose of vestiges.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by lj on 04.06.14 7:08

@nobodythereeither wrote:
@shabba wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:Also the shelving and publishing of the case left the finger of suspicion pointing at certain individuals - they needed it rectified. Now why would they publicly demand a review? If they were not confident in the outcome they would not have called for a review of the case.

Someone please reply to this post as I asked the same question in my first post on this forum,but no-one could explain why they would do that?

I thought I'd responded to this, but my post has disappeared so maybe I never pressed "Send"!

My take on it is that the McCanns publicly demanded a review because they thought it would look good.

But never in a million years did they think one would actually be started, still less that it would become an "investigation".
Shabba maybe because it has been discussed many times here. I too believe they did it because the comments, that they could have kept the case open or request to reopen the case, became stronger and stronger. They knew whoever from the British side would do the review would have no jurisdiction. They always wanted a review not an investigation.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by lj on 04.06.14 7:10

@sallypelt wrote:http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpN4zJGIcAAWecK.jpg

I wonder who lives in a house like that.

What do you mean sallypelt?

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 7:47

@Justformaddie wrote:I wonder what would happen if the dogs found something now?

The answer is easy peasy.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 7:57

Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

And, what would be the point of that ? Will that yield a body ?

It's gone beyond 'death'.
It is no longer about a body of evidence (that they have) it is about a body for evidence (this they are looking for).

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Bishop Brennan on 04.06.14 8:06

@aiyoyo wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

And, what would be the point of that ?  Will that yield a body ?

It's gone beyond 'death'.  
It is no longer about a body of evidence (that they have) it is about a body for evidence (this they are looking for).

If they do find something (trace of cadaver scent seems the most likely), is there any credible scenario that does NOT point the finger immediately and irrevocably at the parents?  Finding the body seems very unlikely (almost certainly moved), and finding blue-bags or toothbrushes equally so (they are too easy to dispose of in public bins). So cadaver trace seems to be the only thing that this 'dig' could find.  Won't be easy that's for sure - but perhaps that is what lies behind the cryptic comment from the McCanns about "find her DNA and prove it's Madeleine - then we will come out".    

An innocent person would assume that the most likely thing to be found was her body, and would be there - fearful that they do.  That's what made their comment so inappropriate. DNA...?  Who says that?!?

But if a body is WAS once there, then surely it is stretching the public's credulity too far to try and spin a story that despite the alerts in 5A and in the Scenic, and GA's conclusions, that some random burglar did it...?    Is the public that stupid?  Please tell me no...  !

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 8:29

@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

And, what would be the point of that ?  Will that yield a body ?

It's gone beyond 'death'.  
It is no longer about a body of evidence (that they have) it is about a body for evidence (this they are looking for).

If they do find something (trace of cadaver scent seems the most likely), is there any credible scenario that does NOT point the finger immediately and irrevocably at the parents?  Finding the body seems very unlikely (almost certainly moved), and finding blue-bags or toothbrushes equally so (they are too easy to dispose of in public bins). So cadaver trace seems to be the only thing that this 'dig' could find.  Won't be easy that's for sure - but perhaps that is what lies behind the cryptic comment from the McCanns about "find her DNA and prove it's Madeleine - then we will come out".    

An innocent person would assume that the most likely thing to be found was her body, and would be there - fearful that they do.  That's what made their comment so inappropriate. DNA...?  Who says that?!?

But if a body WAS there, then surely it is stretching the public's credulity too far to try and spin a story that despite the alerts in 5A and in the Scenic, and GA's conclusions, that some random burglar did it...?    Is the public that stupid?  Please tell me no...  !

Why do you think police continue to trust dogs ?
What does that tell you of the last set of dogs findings - enough for prosecution purpose or not ?
Why do you think OG embark on this costly fishing expedition if not on absolutely necessary basis ?
Martin Grime said in his reports dogs findings is an indication that must be supported by corroborating evidence.
One can safely conclude the strength of corroborating evidence is weak, hence the digs, NO ?

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Atomic Peanut on 04.06.14 8:30

@Varriott wrote: I don't think whitewashes look like this, and I don't think police are professional time wasters.  I just can't believe they are fools.
Indeed. At the risk of being accused of having a fixation on this matter, whitewashes involve collectively pushing things to the back of the drawer and ignoring them. Not creating a massive display of activity for everyone in the world to see. That wouldn't be a whitewash, it would be actively and transparently perverting the course of justice.
Whitewashes work because when things are ignored within the circles of power, eventually most people forget about it. This is the exact opposite.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by PeterMac on 04.06.14 8:47

@kevmack wrote:
And not forgetting the clothes she was wearing that very day on the 3rd of May...should have been no problem determining which clothes they were, she was after all, wearing them in the (in)famous last photo!
Anyway, starting to drift off topic here.  I wonder what tomorrow's digs, if any, will reveal?

Except that the Last Photo was taken on Sunday 29th. The last day of decent weather for a week.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by SchrodingersBody on 04.06.14 8:54

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

And, what would be the point of that ?  Will that yield a body ?

It's gone beyond 'death'.  
It is no longer about a body of evidence (that they have) it is about a body for evidence (this they are looking for).

If they do find something (trace of cadaver scent seems the most likely), is there any credible scenario that does NOT point the finger immediately and irrevocably at the parents?  Finding the body seems very unlikely (almost certainly moved), and finding blue-bags or toothbrushes equally so (they are too easy to dispose of in public bins). So cadaver trace seems to be the only thing that this 'dig' could find.  Won't be easy that's for sure - but perhaps that is what lies behind the cryptic comment from the McCanns about "find her DNA and prove it's Madeleine - then we will come out".    

An innocent person would assume that the most likely thing to be found was her body, and would be there - fearful that they do.  That's what made their comment so inappropriate. DNA...?  Who says that?!?

But if a body WAS there, then surely it is stretching the public's credulity too far to try and spin a story that despite the alerts in 5A and in the Scenic, and GA's conclusions, that some random burglar did it...?    Is the public that stupid?  Please tell me no...  !

Why do you think police continue to trust dogs ?
What does that tell you of the last set of dogs findings - enough for prosecution purpose or not ?
Why do you think OG embark on this costly fishing expedition if not on absolutely necessary basis ?
Martin Grime said in his reports dogs findings is an indication that must be supported by corroborating evidence.
One can safely conclude the strength of corroborating evidence is weak, hence the digs, NO ?
1) because they don't lie and are bloody good at what they do
2) Not yet
3) correct - required to establish enough admissible evidence.
4) correct.

Are the dogs the only non admissible "evidence" ?
The "persuading" of the prime minister to start a review, may have involved him becoming aware that he was having something taken out of his urinary tract, and his becoming aware of further non admissible evidence of involvement.

We don't know why the locations have been chosen yet, but you can bet if they turn up a result, that the reasoning for choosing the location might not be probed too deeply, and that would be where the whitewash came in, citing "national security" or something to never really reveal the reasons for the choices. Hey who cares how we knew where to dig, look what we found.

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ready or not . . .

Post by PeterMac on 04.06.14 8:55

97,  98,  99,   ONE HUNDRED

Ready or not - I'm Coming ! ! !



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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by CynicAl on 04.06.14 8:56

@lj wrote:
@nobodythereeither wrote:
@shabba wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:Also the shelving and publishing of the case left the finger of suspicion pointing at certain individuals - they needed it rectified. Now why would they publicly demand a review? If they were not confident in the outcome they would not have called for a review of the case.

Someone please reply to this post as I asked the same question in my first post on this forum,but no-one could explain why they would do that?

I thought I'd responded to this, but my post has disappeared so maybe I never pressed "Send"!

My take on it is that the McCanns publicly demanded a review because they thought it would look good.

But never in a million years did they think one would actually be started, still less that it would become an "investigation".
Shabba maybe because it has been discussed many times here. I too believe they did it because the comments, that they could have kept the case open or request to reopen the case, became stronger and stronger. They knew whoever from the British side would do the review would have no jurisdiction. They always wanted a review not an investigation.
Can you quantify the notion that the comments got 'stronger and stronger' and somehow, after years, reached a point of critical mass which caused an arguable sociopath to behave counter-productively? 

I don't mean to insult anyone, but conspiracy theorists and forum activists have a history of thinking a little too highly of the impact of their online crusades, with little evidence to support beyond the arguably coincidental. 

If the Mc's are indeed the perpetrators they appear to be, and are as sociopathically inclined as they appear to be, the greater likelihood is that this kind of tampering with the course of the investigation was simply a slow burning fuse of expediency (keeping the fund alive) or psychological revisiting of the crime scene (control issues) or the prodding of a sleeping dragon, fuelled by characteristic sociopathic sense of indestructibility, which they didn't expect to awaken in quite so feisty a mood.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by PeterMac on 04.06.14 9:00

Martin Grime said in his reports dogs findings is an indication that must be supported by corroborating evidence.

He cannot really say anything else, since it is up to the jury to decide if the other evidence provided by the Prosecution is corroborative or not.
He will know know, but he is merely presenting evidence.

And remember that corroborative evidence does not have to be DNA, physical human remains, blood or whatever. It can just as easily be a description of the behaviour of the missing person in the days leading up to the disappearance, notes left, things said or done by the accused, sightings of a car, and an infinite number of other things.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 04.06.14 9:02

Watching and waiting with interest. Will we see a positive indication from the dogs?
 
It looks to me like they are searching all areas of disturbed ground within a certain distance of flat 5A.  At the moment they all seem to be areas where Smithman could have been heading. Scotland Yard used aerial techniques which archaeologists use to determine disturbed ground hundreds, thousands of years later. Dogs can find buried bodies after these time scales. 7 years is nothing.
 
The examination of all disturbed ground would either prove or eliminate the possibility of Madeleine’s body being buried at any time within a certain walking distance of flat 5A. I wonder if samples taken from the Scenic contain earth that may be matched to a certain area. There is one caveat to this ….areas that have been built on in this 7 year period.
 

Bearing all this in mind there is an area marked out for examination that is now a block paved car park but in 2007 it was undeveloped. This is just to the East of the church. If they start to dig this up is shows a certain level of determination.

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