The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

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Post by noddy100 05.06.14 11:03

I agree. I think Smithman was Gerry and I think its far more likely he was carrying his daughter than anyone else
I don't subscribe to the decoy too convoluted and I think GM would be more than capable of switching into detached mode
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Post by jellycat 05.06.14 11:05

Just a thought, but the way in which the child was being carried... Is that how people generally carry their sleeping children? or is it how one would carry a dead on?
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Post by Ghengis 05.06.14 11:06

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I'd like to state my agreement with other posters in this thread that we need an updates-only thread relating to the PdL searches, as this one is now full of theorizing and fiction-writing.  big grin

Complete agree! Lets concentrate on the search here...
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Post by Cristobell 05.06.14 11:06

AndyB wrote:
Baldrick wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Cristobell wrote:A body would wrap the case up
How? All I can see that it establishes is confirmation that she is dead. Depending on the extent of decay, an autopsy might also confirm how she died, but I don't see how it provides any more proof of anyone's guilt than already exists, such as cadaverine in 5a

Cause off death would provide a lot IMO
Assuming that its possible to determine the cause of death, what would it provide except the cause of her death? What would it prove in terms of identifying the person responsible? How would it wrap the case up?
It is amazing the information examiners can get from the remains of a murder victim.  In the tragic case of Caylee Anthony, her body was found with duct tape around her head and they discovered chloroform had been used.  

The way in which the body is laid to rest also gives clues as to who buried the child.  A parent for example, despite the heinous thing they are about to do, will ensure the body is wrapped and perhaps even given a treasured possession.  A stranger wouldn't bother with any niceities, in fact in most cases, they wouldn't bother to dig a grave, they would discard the body at the earliest opportunity.
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Post by Guest 05.06.14 11:07

Can I ask you all a favour please. When posting any latest news on this thread including news stories, tweets etc, can you at the start of your post put Latest News in bold if you don't want to contact mods with it, and then we can pick it out easily and transfer it to UPDATE thread. Thanks.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 05.06.14 11:11

candyfloss wrote:Can I ask you all a favour please.  When posting any latest news on this thread including news stories, tweets etc, can you at the start of your post put Latest News in bold if you don't want to contact mods with it, and then we can pick it out easily and transfer it to UPDATE thread.  Thanks.

Many thanks for the update thread candyfloss, and also apologies for the additional work this will create for yourself and NFWTD - it is very much appreciated!

 clapping 
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Post by sofieellis 05.06.14 11:13

jellycat wrote:Just a thought, but the way in which the child was being carried... Is that how people generally carry their sleeping children? or is it how one would carry a dead on?

It depends which way you mean. It would be difficult to carry a (nearly 4 yr old across the ams, in the way Tanner described, as they would get very heavy very quickly that way. It would be more normal to carry a child of that age more upright, in the way the Smith family described.
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Post by 1soapy 05.06.14 11:14

Hi TB et al.

Just a query/possible answer on one point you raised.

Rearding, if a decoy (which I'm not sure I hold to this view anyway, but if true), I'd say that the reason no-one else saw/few people saw Smithman person was to simulate reality. If a decoy, it would not be a very realistic one to have everyone see you, if pretending to be walking somewhere so no-one saw you. You'd expect it to be done with seeming secrecy, I'd say.

'Make sure someone see's the carrier, but make it looks like you tried to avoid being seen, but didn't quite get away with a complete success.'.

If no-one sees you, it defeats the object.
If lots of sightings, it defeats the object because it does not look like someone trying to discretely hide someone.

There are many other/genuine problems with this decoy theory, but just wanted to mention why this is not necessarily one.
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Post by jellycat 05.06.14 11:14

that's what I figured. thanks for clarifying softieellis
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Post by cassius 05.06.14 11:18

DonNewbery wrote:
cassius wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
cassius wrote:
Maybe Smithman is Gerry with another child, not as a decoy as such but rather as a shield or distraction in the event of him being seen, as he does a final check on the burial place he had sourced earlier in the day .
I thought that HelenMeg's 'decoy' theory about Smithman was about as convoluted as you could get, but evidently I was wrong, you have come up with something even more unlikely.

Like HelenMeg, though, you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 

These two theories (yours and HelenMeg's) are theories without a shred of evidence, whereas at least my suggestion that Smithman was fabricated (whether or not you agree) does have a considerable amount of circumstantial evidence to support it.
Thank for your kind response.
The decoy idea seems absurd to me too.
The Smith sighting seems plausible .
Surely GM didn,t carry his dead daughter.
Just trying to marry all the posibilities together.
Truth is a rare visitor to TM hopefully justice will visit them.

'Surely GM didn't carry his dead daughter.'

I don't think you've thought this through. If (quite a big if, but not that huge) Smithman was GM, then of course he was carrying his dead daughter. He had a problem to solve, and, it seems, he solved it rather cleverly. Though perhaps fate is catching up with him now.
DonNewbury,i have thought this through too many times for my own good!Was trying to accomodate the theory of PM that the body was disposed of earlier in the afternoon by GM.
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Post by PeterMac 05.06.14 11:19

Cristobell wrote:
It is amazing the information examiners can get from the remains of a murder victim.  In the tragic case of Caylee Anthony, her body was found with duct tape around her head and they discovered chloroform had been used.  

And in the case of Ötzi, the Iceman, found on the pass between Austria and Italy, who has been there for 5,000 years
Talk about a cold case. Researchers in Italy and Switzerland have announced that they have determined the cause of death for the Iceman. He’s that incredibly well preserved frozen mummy that was found sticking out of a glacier in the Alps near the Italy-Austria border, about 10,000 feet up, back in 1991. He’d been lying there for about 5,000 years.

In 2005, the mummy was subjected to noninvasive multislice computed tomography, often called a CT scan. In a paper published this week in the Journal of Archaeological Science, the scan found a lesion in the left subclavian artery. That’s the big blood vessel underneath the clavicle, or collarbone. The lesion was apparently cause by an arrowhead that’s still lodged in the Iceman’s back. A large hemotoma extends into the surrounding tissue. Modern records of such injuries indicate that the Iceman survived for only a short time after suffering this injury. There’s no statute of limitation on murder, and his killers are still at large. Global warming may yet reveal the perpetrators, should a dying glacier set them free.
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Post by uppatoffee 05.06.14 11:23

article in the guardian today http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/05/madeleine-mccann-police-fourth-day-praia-da-luz-scrubland

Madeleine McCann: police begin fourth day of Praia da Luz scrubland search
Officers continue scouring patch of overgrown land including concealed shaft discovered beneath sheet of corrugated iron


  • Josh Halliday and Brendan de Beer in Praia da Luz

  • theguardian.com, Thursday 5 June 2014 10.45 BST


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[size=12]British police with sniffer dogs check an area of scrubland during the search in the Praia da Luz. Photograph: Philip Toscano/PA


Detectives using sniffer dogs have begun a fourth day of searches in dense scrubland a short walk from where Madeleine McCann was last seen alive seven years ago.
Officers continued scouring the patch of overgrown land on Thursday morning using two springer spaniels that were deployed in the search for murdered schoolgirl April Jones.
As detectives returned to the 15-acre site in the Portuguese holiday resort of Praia da Luz, more details emerged about two key search sites that have become the focus of the investigation over the past three days.
One of the sites is a concealed shaft in the ground discovered by detectives beneath a sheet of corrugated iron. Forensic officers wearing protective clothing and face masks examined the site for several hours on Wednesday, erecting a white tent to shield their work from the glare of the world's media.
Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14 - Page 22 Police-search-land-and-un-011Police search land and undergrowth in the Portuguese resort. Photograph: Virgilio Rodrigues/Barcroft Medi
Portuguese newspapers reported on Thursday that this site was a disused storage box where children used to play. The shaft, measuring around 5ft by 3ft (150cm by 90cm), was covered by mounds of earth and a corrugated iron sheet, which is thought to have concealed the hole for years.
Another key area of interest for detectives was said to be a grave-like hole, where officers used ground penetrating radar before erecting a white tent and carrying out digging work.
Under the headline "False grave deceives geo-radar", the newspaper Correia da Manhã reported that a site "with characteristics similar to a grave" was discovered but officers later concluded that it was "not compatible with that of a body".
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, the Scotland Yard officer leading the operation, spent about an hour at this site with British officers and Faro's Polícia Judiciária director, Mota Carmo, on Wednesday, inspecting the discovery himself from inside the police tent.
Detectives will on Thursday examine the sewerage system below the hilly scrubland using micro-cameras and fibre-optic cables, according to Correia da Manhã.
Redwood and his team of British investigators arrived at the search site at 9.30am on Thursday, declining to speak to journalists as his accreditation was checked by armed Portuguese police officers guarding the parameter of the site.
Scotland Yard has formally applied to extend the ground-level searches into next week.
The operation was initially expected to end on Friday but progress has been slow in the meticulous search a short distance from where the then three-year-old girl was last seen in 2007.
The painstaking investigative work, which began on Monday, is being delayed by a need to clear the sites using strimmers and chainsaws.
It is expected that the searches will now stretch into a second week, after Scotland Yard applied to extend the operation as they await formal approval from Portuguese police.
Madeleine's parents, Kate, 46, and Gerry, 45, are being kept abreast of developments in the first ground-level search since those conducted immediately after her disappearance in May 2007.



[/size]
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Post by russiandoll 05.06.14 11:24

Tony Bennett wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
I also believe Smithman carried a decoy child, most likely daughter of JT.
This amounts to a suggestion that as part of the 'plot', Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien sat down and planned for Russell O'Brien, Gerry McCann or someone else to take their three-year-old daughter through the streets of Praia da Luz at around 10.00pm on 3 May 07, whilst leaving their one-year-old in the care of one or both of them. (Or as you say, it might have been one of the other children).

Now, following your decoy theory, it follows that the whole purpose of the decoy is to be seen carrying the child, so can you explain why the only claimed sighting of your 'man-with-decoy-child' was just the one (alleegedly) seen by the Smiths and by no-one else? 

And in your 'decoy' theory, what happens to your 'decoy' child after man-with-decoy-child has passed the Smiths? Does the child return with decoy man later? Or do they sleep somewhere else that night?

Moreover, given a pretty cool early May evening, around 13C or 55F I believe, your theory involves carrying a child in pyjamas at night through the streets of Praia da Luz (and maybe back again). Also, how are they to know in advance that the child will be asleep and remain asleep throughout the walk? She might suddenly stir, wake up and cry.

As explanations for 'Smithman' go, how reaslistic is this, HelenMeg?

 As realistic as your conspiracy theory involving millions of pounds and from the very top of the powers that be, without a rational reason for what and why.

 Pjs could have had a top and bottoms on underneath. You see outerwear, that does not mean no clothes underneath.
 Sedation could have ensured a non-waking child.

 Do you think you could pose an objection to a theory you disagree with in a courteous manner? I refer to your post elsewhere where you were grateful that a few members here besides yourself could see through the charade... implying anyone who sees this as anything other than a massive conspiracy is less blessed with incisive intelligence than the whitewash believers.

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contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
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Post by Tony Bennett 05.06.14 11:26

1soapy wrote:Hi TB et al.

Just a query/possible answer on one point you raised.

Rearding, if a decoy (which I'm not sure I hold to this view anyway, but if true), I'd say that the reason no-one else saw/few people saw Smithman person was to simulate reality. If a decoy, it would not be a very realistic one to have everyone see you, if pretending to be walking somewhere so no-one saw you. You'd expect it to be done with seeming secrecy, I'd say.

'Make sure someone see's the carrier, but make it looks like you tried to avoid being seen, but didn't quite get away with a complete success.'.

If no-one sees you, it defeats the object.

If lots of sightings, it defeats the object because it does not look like someone trying to discretely hide someone.


There are many other/genuine problems with this decoy theory, but just wanted to mention why this is not necessarily one.
Still more ridiculous than anything I've seen so far.

"Look, you go out as a decoy, stick your three-year-old in pjyamas like Madeleine's, look, I know it's a bit cold, but this is going to work - trust me! - just make sure you're seen by one or two people but not too many. Hide somewhere after you've walked to the beach, I'll give you a bell on the mobile and give you further instructions after we've raised the alarm".

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by russiandoll 05.06.14 11:27

AndyB wrote:
Baldrick wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Cristobell wrote:A body would wrap the case up
How? All I can see that it establishes is confirmation that she is dead. Depending on the extent of decay, an autopsy might also confirm how she died, but I don't see how it provides any more proof of anyone's guilt than already exists, such as cadaverine in 5a

Cause off death would provide a lot IMO
Assuming that its possible to determine the cause of death, what would it provide except the cause of her death? What would it prove in terms of identifying the person responsible? How would it wrap the case up?

 If they find a body but also find a prior resting place, it rules out a stranger I would think.
 If they find a prior resting place and clues. but don't find a final resting place, I imagine the same.

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Post by uppatoffee 05.06.14 11:30

Josh Halliday ‏[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]  1m
Two officers have prized open a manhole in Madeleine McCann search area
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Post by uppatoffee 05.06.14 11:31

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Josh Halliday ‏@JoshHalliday
  1m
Officers now lowering a black rod, presumably containing fibre optic cameras, into the sewer #madeleine
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Post by uppatoffee 05.06.14 11:33

Josh Halliday ‏

[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]

  1m
Officer in British police uniform on hands and knees inspecting the prized-open shaft and making notes
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 05.06.14 11:33

russiandoll wrote:
 If they find a body but also find a prior resting place, it rules out a stranger I would think.
 If they find a prior resting place and clues. but don't find a final resting place, I imagine the same.

Also, if something is found at this site then surely SY must have had a solid reason to focus on the area. That reason could also point the finger somewhere.

For example, when Kate told the PJ of her dream of Madeleine being buried on a hillside, if the PJ had found a body there they would not have just said 'lucky for us you had that dream Kate!'.
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Post by uppatoffee 05.06.14 11:34

Josh Halliday ‏[ltr]@JoshHalliday[/ltr]  1m
This manhole is about 20ft from where officers used ground penetrating radar yesterday #madeleine
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Post by Tony Bennett 05.06.14 11:35

russiandoll wrote:
Pyjmass could have had a top and bottoms on underneath. You see outerwear, that does not mean no clothes underneath.  Sedation could have ensured a non-waking child.
Absolutely fascinating, building on HelenMeg's speculation with two more 'could have's - piling speculation upon speculation upon speculation.

So let me amend the suggested dialogue I just gave to 1soapy (and yes I am going to call his idea 'ridiculous'):

 
"Look, you go out as a decoy, stick your three-year-old in pjyamas like Madeleine's, look, I know it's a bit cold, so look, put on some warm clothes underneath the pyjamas to keep her warm. This is going to work - trust me! - but, I know, what if she wakes up? Simple, just give her some more sedation than uusal, that should ensure she is a non-waking child. What to do after you've reached the beach? Er, don't worry, I'l think of something, I'll send you a text".

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by russiandoll 05.06.14 11:35

my last on this as it is off topic

  you propose a theory that involves one of the Tapas 7 parents volunteering for their young blonde daughter to be carried around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold night dressed only in pyjamas. 


 Tony, we believe that some if not all tapas told lies for the parents... why would this favour be such a big deal?

 No more from me to you on this issue even on another thread when you insult fellow members, once again being belittled for  their "ridiculous "  theories.. some of whom possibly think that your whitewash theory is ridiculous , but are too courteous and respectful to members here to say so.

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Post by Guest 05.06.14 11:36

uppatoffee wrote:
Portuguese newspapers reported on Thursday that this site was a disused storage box where children used to play. The shaft, measuring around 5ft by 3ft (150cm by 90cm), was covered by mounds of earth and a corrugated iron sheet, which is thought to have concealed the hole for years.

Now, who would have known about that?
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 05.06.14 11:37

LATEST NEWS

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 3m
This manhole is about 20ft from where officers used ground penetrating radar yesterday #madeleine

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 4m
Officer in British police uniform on hands and knees inspecting the prized-open shaft and making notes

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 5m
Officers now lowering a black rod, presumably containing fibre optic cameras, into the sewer #madeleine

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 6m
Two officers have prized open a manhole in Madeleine McCann search area

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 59m
This is separate to two key sites where Madeleine McCann police have been focusing work in past four days

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 1h
DCI Redwood just visited a third site where five officers are clearing undergrowth using pickaxe, shovels and rakes

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 2h
DCI Andy Redwood, the officer leading the Madeleine McCann search, has arrived. Said "bom dia" to local cops but no word to media :-(

Josh Halliday @JoshHalliday · 2h
Madeleine McCann search: two police sniffer dogs who searched for April Jones returned this morn to Praia da Luz scrubland
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whatliesbehindthesofa

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Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14 - Page 22 Empty Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Cristobell 05.06.14 11:38

noddy100 wrote:I agree. I think Smithman was Gerry and I think its far more likely he was carrying his daughter than anyone else
I don't subscribe to the decoy too convoluted and I think GM would be more than capable of switching into detached mode


I cannot think of a single logical reason for Gerry to have rushed through the streets carrying a child, except that he is a risktaker extraordinaire.  Imo, the chances of a man who looked exactly like Gerry, carrying a child who looked exactly like Madeleine at the exact moment it is claimed she disappeared are beyond reason.  I think it was Gerry in a panic, rushing to meet someone and the phone calls made in that area on 3rd May must have been of great interest to the police. 


The 'wanting so much to help' Jane Tanner obliged them with the decoy. 
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Cristobell

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