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Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Bishop Brennan on 04.06.14 11:00

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@cass7 wrote:this bit of land how far is it away from the mw complex ? a fit person to walk , has it ever been used as a dumping ground in the past and cleaned up , odd clothes items , bags , bedding , fridges , freezers , all kinds of things , matresses ?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've calculated that at average walking speed for a male it should take between 6 and 7 minutes to walk from 5A to the area of scrubland being searched.

Is that factoring in an achilles injury, or not?

And the route helpfully goes by another set of tennis courts - so anybody walking about in tennis gear, carrying a tennis bag would attract no interest or suspicion. Mind you if he also had a spade... well that might be a bit more obvious...

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 11:01

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
As I don't agree with that theory at all, for me Scotland Yard are looking in exactly the right place.

For what?  If you believe a body is buried there, then does that not suggest a 'burglar with a spade' story.  

No I don't believe a body is buried there, but one may have been temporarily hidden there.  In which case they need to test soil samples for traces of DNA, and so far it looks to me as if that is exactly what SY are doing.

Old corrugated metal will cut or graze unprotected hands very easily leaving traces of blood and/or skin. If dropped back over a hole, it will drop fragments of metal/rust/paint.

A hole lined with rough wood planking could snag fabric or skin or hair.


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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by riskybuisness on 04.06.14 11:03

@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?
That is what I have been trying to work out.  How would they even relate any scent her.  If scent lasts for  10-100 of decades then surely it could have been from much longer ago.  What can they prove with scent.  Unfortunately I think Gerry may be correct with his body and dna statements.  Not sure what can be achieved without either. - Hopefully I am completely wrong

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 04.06.14 11:04

Poe wrote:
Old corrugated metal will cut or graze unprotected hands very easily leaving traces of blood and/or skin. If dropped back over a hole, it will drop fragments of metal/rust/paint.

A hole lined with rough wood planking could snag fabric or skin or hair.

Indeed, there could be DNA from multiple sources. And if that turns out to be the case ... GAME OVER.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by petunia on 04.06.14 11:04

Day 3 of the search #praiadaluz #mccann and the makeshift hide is attracting more police activity. pic.twitter.com/OXPgK228ev
 Hide photo





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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by wicksy on 04.06.14 11:06

The Guardian has just updated today's article:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/04/madeleine-mccann-search-praia-da-luz

Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have begun a third day of searches in scrubland a short walk from the holiday apartment where she was last seen seven years ago.
A team of Scotland Yard detectives arrived at the 15-acre site in Praia da Luz before 10am on Wednesday, with some officers returning to a small patch of land where they focused their searches on Tuesday.
DCI Andy Redwood, the investigator leading the operation, visited this small area on Wednesday morning, inspecting the patch of land from different viewing points as he was briefed by a uniformed detective.
Ten Portuguese police officers are on 24-hour guard at the perimeter of the site, including some on horseback and others with police dogs.
Officers started digging up scrubland for the first time in Praia da Luz on Tuesday as they prepared to expand significantly the search operation in the resort where she went missing in 2007.
Officers armed with shovels, strimmers and two sniffer dogs scoured a small patch of land where the searches focused, with some investigators digging up patches of earth 300 metres from the apartment block where the three-year-old girl was last seen.
On Wednesday two officers in British police uniform returned to that same site at the foot of the hill, where they have placed red tape around a small patch of shrubs growing next to a scrap of corrugated iron.
A Metropolitan police officer looked on as a worker used a petrol strimmer to chop back shrubbery next to where they dug on Tuesday afternoon, suggesting the small patch of land remains a key area of interest for investigators.
Nearby, two Met officers used shovels to dig up bits of earth before taking soil samples away in buckets to be examined.
As the ground-level searches ramped up, police sources told the Guardian that the operation was likely to be widened this week. The attorney general's office in Lisbon was on Tuesday considering a Scotland Yard request to carry out searches in two other areas.
However, it is understood that the searches will be wound down on Friday if officers fail to make a significant discovery.
Wednesday is the third day of the renewed search effort, launched seven years after Madeleine disappeared while her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, dined with friends at a nearby tapas restaurant.
Redwood, the investigator leading the operation, looked on from a hilltop as uniformed officers got on their hands and knees to carry out painstaking fingertip searches in the scrubland, which has been cordoned off under a 24-hour police guard since Monday.
Madeleine's parents, from Rothley in Leicestershire, are being kept abreast of any important developments as the search continues this week.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by DIBarlow on 04.06.14 11:06

@MrsC wrote:
@HelenMeg wrote:If Smithman was GM who,  some of us think may have taken a decoy blonde girl for a walk to give credibility to abduction scenario, then nothing will be found. If the body went directly from apartment to freezer then nothing will be found.

This sounds reasonable. GM knows nothing will be found, he always has done, hence the ubiquitous smirk.
Except of course, something was found. In the hire car and in the apartment.

The problem with unrestricted back-fitting is that these facts become submerged beneath unlikely scenarios.

Unlikely when one puts themselves in the position(s) of those involved. Why on earth would McCann run the risk of being identified with a 'decoy' child? Even he isn't that stupid, is he?

The route he took was clearly to reduce the risk of encountering anyone, there was a more direct but riskier route to the beach don't forget.

No, for me, their poorly thought out 'plan' with no independently corroborated evidence, at all, to back it up, was something put together in panic mode, with a need to shift anything incriminating out of 5A as soon as possible. Decoy runs with a similar child would not have been on such an agenda.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Woofer on 04.06.14 11:07

@nglfi wrote:This may be slightly off topic but I just wondered if anyone can confirm something about the DNA issue - if a body is found, horrible to say but it will almost certainly be a skeleton. 
1) can DNA be extracted from a skeleton? 
2) if it can, can it be determined as Madeleine simply by taking samples from adult McCanns and comparing them?

I'm thinking about the issue some people have raised that the DNA samples sent back from the FSS or indeed from the Rothley pillowcase may have been dodgy.  I'm thinking that even if they were, it doesn't matter because if a skeleton or parts of a body which contain DNA are found, they can be confirmed with 99% certainty as being a relative of the McCanns.  And truly they have no way to argue their way out of that!  I think I've read somewhere that the PJ already have samples of the McCanns so it's too late for them to refuse to provide a sample anyway.

They extracted DNA from Richard III`s skeleton, then found a descendant of his to compare it with.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by PeterMac on 04.06.14 11:09

@nglfi wrote:This may be slightly off topic but I just wondered if anyone can confirm something about the DNA issue - if a body is found, horrible to say but it will almost certainly be a skeleton.  More likely "mummified'
1) can DNA be extracted from a skeleton?  YES
2) if it can, can it be determined as Madeleine simply by taking samples from adult McCanns and comparing them? Qualified YES.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 11:14

@PeterMac wrote:
@nglfi wrote:This may be slightly off topic but I just wondered if anyone can confirm something about the DNA issue - if a body is found, horrible to say but it will almost certainly be a skeleton.   More likely "mummified'
1) can DNA be extracted from a skeleton?    YES  DNA can also be extracted from a tooth or a hair follicle (DNA has been obtained from the fur of a woolly mammoth)
2) if it can, can it be determined as Madeleine simply by taking samples from adult McCanns and comparing them?   Qualified YES.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 11:21

@PeterMac wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
And not forgetting the clothes she was wearing that very day on the 3rd of May...should have been no problem determining which clothes they were, she was after all, wearing them in the (in)famous last photo!
Anyway, starting to drift off topic here.  I wonder what tomorrow's digs, if any, will reveal?

Except that the Last Photo was taken on Sunday 29th. The last day of decent weather for a week.

Couldn't believe this (EXIF data change) was sussed out even over at 3As back then.
Surely the Police must know it too, even before they were informed by research team.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by CynicAl on 04.06.14 11:24

@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?
By adding a current, testable, active line of evidence to an investigation to which SY are actively and publicly contributing, in support of a body of information and a line of investigation which is known to the highest relevant authorities in the UK and Portugal and which will certainly not be revealed in whole or part to Joe Public until after a very sensational prosecution has yielded a verdict, or the case is abandoned again with the PJ publishing in anger the additional case files at the point of archiving. 

It isn't safe to assume that because Joe Public is not being Tweeted in on the master strategy of an active investigation that there isn't one. The evidence is quite the opposite, except to those making a career of cynicism and conspiracy theory.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 11:25

@aiyoyo wrote:

Couldn't believe this (EXIF data change) was sussed out even over at 3As back then.
Surely the Police must know it too, even before they were informed by research team.

Just goes to show that, in the digital age, a photo isn't worth the paper it's not printed on.

Given sufficient computing power you could quite easily synthesize every photo that ever has been, will be or could be taken.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by stillsloppingout on 04.06.14 11:28

@riskybuisness wrote:
@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?
That is what I have been trying to work out.  How would they even relate any scent her.  If scent lasts for  10-100 of decades then surely it could have been from much longer ago.  What can they prove with scent.  Unfortunately I think Gerry may be correct with his body and dna statements.  Not sure what can be achieved without either. - Hopefully I am completely wrong
Im sure members on this forum will be able to easily answer those question's for you both . 

For what its worth .

 Firstly these dogs were selected to look for recent burial [ where a body is in a decomposing state ], not historical [ ie richard the third. So there can be no confusion with any scent detected .

 As i guess nobody has died on the land , it means a body must have been there , a day week , doesn't matter it was there . So nobody has i assume died there , there is a missing child , 2 plus 2 equals 4 . especially if they get a DNA match . 

Im getting a coconut shell feeling again here , so any assistance would help .  big grin

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Pershing36 on 04.06.14 11:30

If they find anything this wont look good on the PJ.  The press will have a field day banging on about the original bungled investigation.  Also will play right into the hands of those who claimed no real search took place at the time.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by endgame on 04.06.14 11:32

@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?

Quite. In itself it proves no link to the McCanns and could be used to support any number of other theories. If AR had accepted the earlier dog findings, I don't see how the "investigation" could possibly have followed the course that it has. As always with this nothing ever adds up.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 11:32

@SchrodingersBody wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:I keep yelling at the telly for them to nip down the road and take Tito and Muzzy to 5A for a quick once-over. Seems such a wasted opportunity.

And, what would be the point of that ?  Will that yield a body ?

It's gone beyond 'death'.  
It is no longer about a body of evidence (that they have) it is about a body for evidence (this they are looking for).

If they do find something (trace of cadaver scent seems the most likely), is there any credible scenario that does NOT point the finger immediately and irrevocably at the parents?  Finding the body seems very unlikely (almost certainly moved), and finding blue-bags or toothbrushes equally so (they are too easy to dispose of in public bins). So cadaver trace seems to be the only thing that this 'dig' could find.  Won't be easy that's for sure - but perhaps that is what lies behind the cryptic comment from the McCanns about "find her DNA and prove it's Madeleine - then we will come out".    

An innocent person would assume that the most likely thing to be found was her body, and would be there - fearful that they do.  That's what made their comment so inappropriate. DNA...?  Who says that?!?

But if a body WAS there, then surely it is stretching the public's credulity too far to try and spin a story that despite the alerts in 5A and in the Scenic, and GA's conclusions, that some random burglar did it...?    Is the public that stupid?  Please tell me no...  !

Why do you think police continue to trust dogs ?
What does that tell you of the last set of dogs findings - enough for prosecution purpose or not ?
Why do you think OG embark on this costly fishing expedition if not on absolutely necessary basis ?
Martin Grime said in his reports dogs findings is an indication that must be supported by corroborating evidence.
One can safely conclude the strength of corroborating evidence is weak, hence the digs, NO ?
1) because they don't lie and are bloody good at what they do
2) Not yet
3) correct - required to establish enough admissible evidence.
4) correct.

Thank you for getting the points.



Are the dogs the only non admissible "evidence" ?

It is admissible, and often used in cases sans body, to corroborate circumstantial evidence to successful conviction.

We don't know why the locations have been chosen yet, but you can bet if they turn up a result, that the reasoning for choosing the location might not be probed too deeply, and that would be where the whitewash came in, citing "national security" or something to never really reveal the reasons for the choices. Hey who cares how we knew where to dig, look what we found.


To deploy and involve that kind of resources, bureaucratic approvals and logistics, you'd think they believed they'd hard evidence for locations selection.




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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 04.06.14 11:33

@endgame wrote:
@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?

Quite. In itself it proves no link to the McCanns and could be used to support any number of other theories. If AR had accepted the earlier dog findings, I don't see how the "investigation" could possibly have followed the course that it has. As always with this nothing ever adds up.

They're not looking to prove anything with the dogs.  They're using the dogs to identify specific locations to search for evidence such as DNA.

The ground penetrating radar is good for objects that are buried in the ground.  If a dead body has been in (or on) the ground and removed, the dogs are even better.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by ChippyM on 04.06.14 11:34

@Pershing36 wrote:If they find anything this wont look good on the PJ.  The press will have a field day banging on about the original bungled investigation.  Also will play right into the hands of those who claimed no real search took place at the time.


 Surely the current 'dig' is in the very early stages. They have been clearing vegetation and haven't even started with the GPR yet.  I think they are investigating the hole as a matter of course because it's there.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by stillsloppingout on 04.06.14 11:35

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:

Couldn't believe this (EXIF data change) was sussed out even over at 3As back then.
Surely the Police must know it too, even before they were informed by research team.

Just goes to show that, in the digital age, a photo isn't worth the paper it's not printed on.

Given sufficient computing power you could quite easily synthesize every photo that ever has been, will be or could be taken.
Yep useful if you shoot a weather picture on a beach in sunny weather, and  re send it the next day , strip/ change the metadata , and the desks think you have just taken it , even though it is now pis*ing it down .

Exactly what was done on the pool shot IMO

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by aiyoyo on 04.06.14 11:35

@PeterMac wrote:97,  98,  99,   ONE HUNDRED

Ready or not - I'm Coming ! ! !



At least he is seen involved in the field works.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 11:37

@Portia wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@MarleneP wrote:
Do you think he has taken this injury  when he dug the hole in the afternoon?

I never thought of that. But I think it was probably bogus. I have had achilles injuries in the past and they are not the kind of thing that you can "run off" or that just go away spontaneously - I needed physiotherapy for mine. So he really should have just said twisted ankle, or something, and I really don't know why he didn't.
To -sort of- 'incapacitate' himself totally, seeing that most of us would walk on with an ankle problem?

Mr Poe completely snapped his achilles tendon playing football. He finished the match then drove himself home.

He spent two months with his leg in a cast with the threat of surgery if it didn't heal and even now (years later) it still causes him discomfort sometimes.

So I can see how Gerry running on adrenaline would be able to ignore an achilles injury but, like Clay says, it needs specific, and visible, medical intervention - x-rays, scans, casts, crutches, surgery & physiotherapy.

He didn't injure his tendon. nah 

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 04.06.14 11:38

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@endgame wrote:
@phil_burton wrote:How would finding cadaver scent in a nearby field 7 years after the event put the McCanns in the frame when the cadaver scent was found in their apartment and that has disappeared from public consciousness?

Quite. In itself it proves no link to the McCanns and could be used to support any number of other theories. If AR had accepted the earlier dog findings, I don't see how the "investigation" could possibly have followed the course that it has. As always with this nothing ever adds up.

They're not looking to prove anything with the dogs.  They're using the dogs to identify specific locations to search for evidence such as DNA.

The ground penetrating radar is good for objects that are buried in the ground.  If a dead body has been in (or on) the ground and removed, the dogs are even better.
Dogs don't search for DNA. They sniff & smell. Bodies. Not DNA as such

And don't the Mecs know that!

Hence, more than likely their present stand amounting to: 'if you don't find her DNA, you haven't found her', which might -just might- be intended to pre-empt the retrieval of an otherwise unidentifiable skeleton or parts thereof.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Praia on 04.06.14 11:38

What does he look like fully suited and booted in this heat? I swear he is a robot, does not blink, smile or sweat.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by stillsloppingout on 04.06.14 11:39

@aiyoyo wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:97,  98,  99,   ONE HUNDRED

Ready or not - I'm Coming ! ! !



At least he is seen involved in the field works.
' Julie was heartbroken when it was revealed who she had selected in the PDL dogging competition " big grin

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