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Operation Overlord. D-Day

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by PeterMac on 11.06.14 15:18

Many years ago I heard (on the Home Service !) an interview with a veteran of WWII.
He had retreated through Belgium - one supposes back to Dunkirk.
In one small village he found an old woman sitting in her chair just outside the front door - weeping.
He spoke French.
She told him that this was the THIRD time the village had been over-run by the Germans in her lifetime.
1870, 1914, 1939

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by bobbin on 11.06.14 17:18

@RIPM wrote:
bobbin wrote

Now, ref the previous ruckus vis a vis a French (hero) general. That is a name that one dare not utter where I live in the French Alps.
The resistance is deeply entrenched here, memories fiercely defended, even now. A local regiment is named after the Englishman whom they consider to be a real hero, Tom Morrell, an English resistance leader, who co-ordinated so much action and support for the French resistance and who parachuted with many British resistance workers/soldiers, onto the Plateau des Glieres, holding it for months from the enemy.
The regiment is NOT named after the general who, from the relative safety of the UK during the war, apparently encouraged the French people to resist, and who was not seen as the leader.

I am sorry but as you have mentioned the previous ruckus, you cannot be allowed to peddle  such blatant mis-information.

Can you produce any evidence whatsoever of any Tom Morrell a British hero leading British and French troops in the French Alps.

There is a very famous and revered man Théodose Morel also known as Tom Morel  but it would seem the French on this forum are not allowed war heroes so Tom Morel becomes British, the only problem is he was born on 1st August 1915 in Lyon.

Lyon is in France.

His father was French
His mother was French
He was educated and grew up in France

As far as is known Tom Morel never set foot in England.  The man Théodose known as Tom Morel is a French national hero for very good reason.

The British have many genuine war heroes whose bravery is well documented and rightly so but if a member of this forum chooses to mention people they should do some basic research on the subject.

 Readers from your post could wrongly assume he was not French.  If you have any evidence he was British please provide your references.

 If not, you should withdraw your remarks and before other other readers tell me I am rude, there is an internet, you can check out the facts for yourself.
Untrue statements simply devalue the forum.

Reply to RIPM

I had originally written a considerably longer post, which when I re-read it, thought it to have rather too many extracts from websites, so I set about reducing it all.
I was a bit hurried to post it before going out, and in cutting and pasting, I see that I had made too many contractions and it has left an error and confusion, which no longer reads as clearly as I would want.

I had wanted to convey :-

“A local regiment is named after the “Frenchman”….Tom Morel, (not English- here I had not corrected for the reference to the Englishman Heslop).. I know Morel is French. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morel)
From my original post I had cut out a long reference to the joint operation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_des_Gli%C3%A8res between London, Morel, Rosenthal,the RAF and the Englishman Heslop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Harry_Heslop) member of the SOE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive) and I had included references to the animosity towards DeGaulle (i.e. Not seen as a hero by many in the Resistance and certainly not in this geographical area) because of what many in the “Resistance” considered a post war betrayal.

Thus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle
snipped:
Curbing the Communist Resistance
After the celebrations had died down, de Gaulle began conferring with leading Resistance figures who, with the Germans gone, intended to continue as a political and military force, and asked to be given a government building to serve as their headquarters. The Resistance, in which the Communists were competing with other trends for leadership, had developed its own manifesto for social and political change known as the National Council of the Resistance (CNR) Charter, and wanted special status to enter the army under their own flags, ranks and honours. Despite their decisive support in backing him against Giraud, de Gaulle disappointed some of the Resistance leaders by telling them that although their efforts and sacrifices had been recognised, they had no further role to play and, that unless they joined the regular army, they should lay down their arms and return to civilian life.[56]
Believing them to be a dangerous revolutionary force, de Gaulle moved to break up the liberation committees and other militias. The political outlook of the Communists represented the complete opposite of his own views, and he was concerned at the amount of support they were receiving from the public. The potential power of the Communists also troubled the American government. As early as May 1943, the U.S. Secretary of State Cordell Hull had written to Roosevelt urging him to take action to attempt to curb the rise of Communism in France.[20]
The Provisional Government of the French Republic
On 10 September 1944, the Provisional Government of the French Republic, or Government of National Unanimity was formed. It included many of de Gaulle's Free French associates such as Gaston Palewski, Claude Guy, Claude Mauriac and Jacques Soustelle, together with members of the main parties, which included the Socialists and a new Christian Democratic Party, the MRP under the leadership of Georges Bidault, who served as Foreign Minister. The president of the pre-war Senate Jules Jeanneney was brought back as second-ranking member, but because of their links with Russia, de Gaulle allowed the Communists only two minor positions in his government. While they were now a major political force with over a million members, of the full cabinet of 22 men, only Augustin Laurent and Charles Tillon—who as head of Francs-Tireurs-Partisans had been one of the most active members of the resistance—were given ministries. However, de Gaulle did pardon the Communists' leader Maurice Thorez, who had been sentenced to death in absentia by the French government for desertion. On his return home from Russia, Thorez delivered a speech supporting de Gaulle in which he said that for the present, the war against Germany was the only task that mattered.
.snipped
.
snipped
Barely two months after forming the new government, de Gaulle abruptly resigned on 20 January 1946. The move was called "a bold and ultimately foolish political ploy", with de Gaulle hoping that as a war hero, he would be soon brought back as a more powerful executive by the French people.[4] However, that did not turn out to be the case. With the war finally over, the initial period of crisis had passed. Although there were still shortages, particularly of bread, France was now on the road to recovery, and de Gaulle suddenly did not seem so indispensable. The Communist publication Combat wrote, "There was no cataclysm, and the empty plate didn't crack".[56]

end snip

It is worth reading the whole of the DeGaulle site. It shows that he was not uniformally appreciated by many throughout his military and political life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle


The gist of my post, simply, is to show that the ‘Resistance’ had been ‘encouraged’ by De Gaulle, who steered from the relative safety of his various family homes in the UK, but that the ‘Resistance’ had lived/fought, defended, been maimed, died, had loved-ones killed, raped etc. as dangerously as any on the front lines, and then been dismissed as no longer 'useful'.
The battallian named after Morel serves to remind us that our freedom today is due to those who do not give in to force, and that our role is still and always will be, to not give in to force.





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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by tigger on 11.06.14 18:16

Thank you Bobbin.

Here is an English language report of the Notre Dame incident.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l1x-OiYE8Qc

A) it is outside the cathedral not inside
B). We get a quick shot of de Gaulle as the shooting begins, no indication whatsoever that he bravely remained standing whilst - as we can see everyone else takes cover
C) the fire was returned by what looks to be tank canon

I doubt very much that de Gaulle just stood there, that would be folly not bravery but dumb, so I stay with my initial opinion:
Exaggerated for the greater glory of de Gaulle who in the first shots has a cigarette in mouth mouth and simply looks as if he doesn't know what's happening.
Besides everybody else dived for cover, if de Gaulle had been the only one standing, I'd expect we would have seen a shot of it.

RIPM : you appear to be incapable of  reasoned debate. You've called my source, a friend of mine who was a histrian and broadcaster, a cretin. You've been insulting both to me and Bobbin - there is absolutely  no reason to behave in such a manner.
Therefore I will not enter in further discussion with you on any topic whatsoever.

You've twice disrupted a topic which is about the brave soldiers who helped liberate Western Europe and about the privations of the various populations during the war, including the Germans.

I hope the topic will survive your personal attacks, the subject matter is far too interesting.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by RIPM on 12.06.14 11:16

@tigger wrote:Thank you Bobbin.

Here is an English language report of the Notre Dame incident.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l1x-OiYE8Qc

A) it is outside the cathedral not inside
B). We get a quick shot of de Gaulle as the shooting begins, no indication whatsoever that he bravely remained standing whilst - as we can see everyone else takes cover
C) the fire was returned by what looks to be tank canon

I doubt very much that de Gaulle just stood there, that would be folly not bravery but dumb, so I stay with my initial opinion:
Exaggerated for the greater glory of de Gaulle who in the first shots has a cigarette in mouth mouth and simply looks as if he doesn't know what's happening.
Besides everybody else dived for cover, if de Gaulle had been the only one standing, I'd expect we would have seen a shot of it.

RIPM : you appear to be incapable of  reasoned debate. You've called my source, a friend of mine who was a histrian and broadcaster, a cretin. You've been insulting both to me and Bobbin - there is absolutely  no reason to behave in such a manner.
Therefore I will not enter in further discussion with you on any topic whatsoever.

You've twice disrupted a topic which is about the brave soldiers who helped liberate Western Europe and about the privations of the various populations during the war, including the Germans.

I hope the topic will survive your personal attacks, the subject matter is far too interesting.
It was not me but Bobbin that referred to the previous ruckus by bringing up the subject of an" Englishman "Tom Morrell.

The only trouble is that everything they wrote was not true. I simply pointed this out and any fair minded person can see this is so.

Now we have you Tigger piling in and quoting more irrelevant nonsense. My previous comments concern De Gaulle and the events INSIDE Notre Dame cathedral.

You put on a video about De Gaulle outside Notre Dame and make inane comments about he had a fag in his mouth.

Inside is normally a building with a roof ,outside is where it rains I hope this clarifies the point.

 For anyone interested google Robert Reid BBC war correspondent where there is detailed transcript of events inside Notre Dame cathedral which confirm my previous comments.

I note Tigger last week, you said you would not correspond with me about this ever again and here you are ,saying you will not speak to me about this ever again, again, hardly a person of your word.

Do you think we are still at junior school?

Are we junior members just expected to accept everything longer serving members say, when they offer no proof.

Opinion is fine but you and Bobbin are stating things as facts and you have been caught out.

If you make a mistake just admit it and move on, don't try and get people banned, you just demean yourself.

Finally, if your historian friend really told you that De Gaulle was never in combat in his life, can you produce a shred of evidence to support this disgraceful claim, but no, you cannot, because it is in your imagination.

This thread disruption is yours.  De Gaulle has a war record beyond dispute you and Bobbin confuse this with a political record.

You do not get bayonet wounds from sitting in an office.

You offer no evidence to support your claims just prejudice and bile and when someone has the temerity to question your assertions, they  are called disruptors and rude but my days of servitude to anyone are long gone.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by tigger on 12.06.14 13:05

You may have missed this the first time round.


RIPM : you appear to be incapable of  reasoned debate. You've called my source, a friend of mine who was a historian and broadcaster, a cretin. You've been insulting both to me and Bobbin - there is absolutely  no reason to behave in such a manner.
Therefore I will not enter in further discussion with you on any topic whatsoever.

You've twice disrupted a topic which is about the brave soldiers who helped liberate Western Europe and about the privations of the various populations during the war, including the Germans.

I hope the topic will survive your personal attacks, the subject matter is far too interesting.

 hijacked ontopic hijacked 

Where is that terminal boredom emoticon when you need it?  splat 

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by PeterMac on 12.06.14 13:29

Beginning to wish I had not started this thread.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by tigger on 12.06.14 14:00

@PeterMac wrote:Beginning to wish I had not started this thread.

It's been wonderful!  I loved to hear the personal stories, the people who did not like it are imo in a minority  of one.

I hoped you'd appreciated my restraint.  ...  winkwink

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by plebgate on 12.06.14 14:03

As our great old soldiers would say, don't let the burgers get you down, keep calm and carry on.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Guest on 12.06.14 17:54

@PeterMac wrote:Beginning to wish I had not started this thread.

I'm reminded of a certain sitcom - DON'T TALK ABOUT THE WAR!".

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by tigger on 12.06.14 19:16

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Beginning to wish I had not started this thread.

I'm reminded of a certain sitcom - DON'T TALK ABOUT THE WAR!".

Well, I think I got away with it.... big grin 

@. plebgate: I didn't know that's how it's spelled.....

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Halfwit on 12.06.14 20:00


I've loved the stories on this thread. My dad was a tank driver in the Desert Rats but he hardly ever talked abou it.

I was watching the two Spitfires display last week, climbing and barrel rolling and I though about this poem which I love.

HIGH FLIGHT

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air
Up, up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

P/O John Gillespie Magee
412 Squadron RCAF
killed 1941 aged 19.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by bobbin on 12.06.14 20:23

@Halfwit wrote:
I've loved the stories on this thread. My dad was a tank driver in the Desert Rats but he hardly ever talked abou it.

I was watching the two Spitfires display last week, climbing and barrel rolling and I though about this poem which I love.

HIGH FLIGHT

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft  through footless halls of air
Up, up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

P/O John Gillespie Magee
412 Squadron RCAF
killed 1941 aged 19.

That leaves me ...... without words, but ever grateful for the real unsung heroes and what they did without asking anything in return, knowing only that they did it for freedom, freedom not for themselves but for all. We can only justify their toil and fore-shortened lives by carrying the banner further.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Halfwit on 12.06.14 22:05

@bobbin wrote:
@Halfwit wrote:
I've loved the stories on this thread. My dad was a tank driver in the Desert Rats but he hardly ever talked abou it.

I was watching the two Spitfires display last week, climbing and barrel rolling and I though about this poem which I love.

HIGH FLIGHT

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft  through footless halls of air
Up, up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

P/O John Gillespie Magee
412 Squadron RCAF
killed 1941 aged 19.

That leaves me ...... without words, but ever grateful for the real unsung heroes and what they did without asking anything in return, knowing only that they did it for freedom, freedom not for themselves but for all. We can only justify their toil and fore-shortened lives by carrying the banner further.

I'm pleased it moved you as it did me bobbin.

His exuberance in that poem leaps off the page to me.

He didn't die in conflict - he had a mid-air collision somewhere over middle England. He escaped the plane but was too near the ground for his parachute to open.


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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by PeterMac on 12.06.14 22:08

It was said about the Spitfire that you did not fly it. . .

You simply strapped it on . . .


The trainer was the bi-plane Tiger Moth, ( which I have flown,)
Douglas Bader lost his legs in a Tiger Moth !

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by aquila on 12.06.14 22:18

@PeterMac wrote:It was said about the Spitfire that you did not fly it. . .

You simply strapped it on . . .


The trainer was the bi-plane Tiger Moth, ( which I have flown,)
Douglas Bader lost his legs in a Tiger Moth !
The site where Spitfires were made is now the Jaguar car plant in Birmingham.

There is the most beautiful sculpture on a roundabout to commemorate not only the manufacture of the spitfire but the spirit.


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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by petunia on 12.06.14 22:19


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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by aquila on 12.06.14 22:39

To Tony Blair, I hope you rot in hell for your war crime to take our men and women into spurious war and to lose not just the lives of our own, not just the lives of those in foreign lands but to leave those in foreign lands in a worse situation than before.

I hope one day that your terrible crimes are exposed.

I hope it's in your lifetime and mine.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by petunia on 12.06.14 22:51

I love and hate these comarations.I never knew my grandpa because of the war and it used to break my heart that my Nan became a widow with 5 children at such a young age of 45,and died never having any other relationship at the grand old age of 93, it gives me comfort to think they are now together..In this day and age religion has a lot to Answer for ETA it was about power in those days imo..

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by petunia on 12.06.14 22:54

@aquila wrote:To Tony Blair, I hope you rot in hell for your war crime to take our men and women into spurious war and to lose not just the lives of our own, not just the lives of those in foreign lands but to leave those in foreign lands in a worse situation than before.

I hope one day that your terrible crimes are exposed.

I hope it's in your lifetime and mine. clapping 

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by ultimaThule on 12.06.14 23:05

@Halfwit wrote:
I've loved the stories on this thread. My dad was a tank driver in the Desert Rats but he hardly ever talked abou it.

I was watching the two Spitfires display last week, climbing and barrel rolling and I though about this poem which I love.

HIGH FLIGHT

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft  through footless halls of air
Up, up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

P/O John Gillespie Magee
412 Squadron RCAF
killed 1941 aged 19.

A beautiful poem written by a young man who already knew what it was to be an angel, Halfwit.

Except to recount some amusing anecdote,usually involving a sergeant major and officers from other services, the Desert Rats in my family didn't talk about what they'd experienced and they died long before I began to comprehend the enormity of what they, and their equally brave comrades, achieved.   I wish I could tell them how proud I am of them and how grateful I am that their sacrifices have spared so many of us from the horrors of war. 'Indebted' doesn't even begin to describe what I feel for all those who laid down their lives so we could live ours in peace.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by ultimaThule on 12.06.14 23:39

@PeterMac wrote:Beginning to wish I had not started this thread.

There will always be those who seek to promote themselves by debasing others, but they are of no account as all they end up achieving is to debase themselves.

Please don't wish this thread away as it stands testament to those without whom we wouldn't have the quality of life we currently enjoy in the western world and, as such, it stands as a testament to you too for creating it in honour of those of your relatives who sacrificed their tomorrows for our todays PeterM.

I'm delighted that Bernard Jordan has been given the freedom of his home city, an honour which he richly and rightly deserves, and it's to be hoped that all veterans of WW2, regardless of whether they served overseas or on the home front. will also be given the ceremonial keys to their home towns and lauded for being exceptional heroes of modern times.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Guest on 12.06.14 23:42

@ultimaThule wrote: [...] Indebted' doesn't even begin to describe what I feel for all those who laid down their lives so we could live ours in peace.
***
Amen, uT, Amen.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by tigger on 13.06.14 5:34

@petunia wrote:


Thank you Petunia, that picture really brings home to me what it must have been like for the young soldiers.

The choppy crossing without any comfort, seasickness and we see what they saw, we stand in the same spot as the photographer.


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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Halfwit on 13.06.14 6:23

@aquila wrote:To Tony Blair, I hope you rot in hell for your war crime to take our men and women into spurious war and to lose not just the lives of our own, not just the lives of those in foreign lands but to leave those in foreign lands in a worse situation than before.

I hope one day that your terrible crimes are exposed.

I hope it's in your lifetime and mine.
 
And to make yourself rich on their backs.
 
I'd like to be Buddhist but he's always in my way. Him and mosquitoes.
 
I love the Spitfire sculpture. John Magee's words there to look at.
 
Tigger I echo your words. How frightened they must have felt.
 
Thank you for this thread Peter.

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Re: Operation Overlord. D-Day

Post by Snifferdog on 13.06.14 7:11

Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote: [...] Indebted' doesn't even begin to describe what I feel for all those who laid down their lives so we could live ours in peace.
***
Amen, uT, Amen.
Peace? Unfortulately not to be.  It will never be enough for the likes of Obama, Blair, Bush, and all the bankers and industrialists who make money off the backs of people.  No greed + lying propaganda + no finance + no weapons = no war.

On a lighter note...I read this one on fb.  It went something like:  The meal was so full of oil it caused Bush to invade the plate. big grin

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