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FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by tigger on 30.05.14 13:51

@Woofer wrote:
@IKNOWWHATHAPPENED wrote:I admire your spirit Tone and as usual you are upsetting people.

Someone else should submit an identical request and see what response they get.

Looking at their website it seems they would conclude there is a campaign.

http://ico.org.uk/news/blog/2013/~/media/documents/library/Freedom_of_Information/Detailed_specialist_guides/dealing-with-vexatious-requests.pdf

In the examples given of what constitutes a vexatious request 'burden on the authority ' is The second on the list.
Without reading the whole topic again, I thought that was the reason quoted for non compliance with the FOI request?

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by roy rovers on 30.05.14 13:57

'You have been warned previously' - what totally inappropriate language for a public servant to use to a member of the public making a legitimate request as allowed by the law. This investigation is a joke. The people running it and those at FOI are THICK!

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Guest on 30.05.14 14:04

@roy rovers wrote:'You have been warned previously' - what totally inappropriate language for a public servant to use to a member of the public making a legitimate request as allowed by the law. This investigation is a joke. The people running it and those at FOI are THICK!

Sounds scary  skull

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by appleblossom on 30.05.14 15:31

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@appleblossom wrote:What I find most irregular in this...Is FOI complaining about your correspondence with OG.
Fair enough. It is appropriate to complain about your requests to them about OG but for them to address direct correspondence between you and OG is not on and very unprofessional of both teams. In my opinion!
Moreover, Operation Grange have, it seems, misled their FOI Act colleagues by describing about three e-mails and two bundles of evidence, all sent over 31 months ago (last bundle sent October 2011), as 'voluminous correspondence'
Whether your correspondence with OG was voluminous or not. (For the record I don't think it was). It was up to OG to discuss this or reprimand you over it. Not a completely seperate Gov. Agency. Stinks of unprofessionalism.
As for vexatious requests. No wonder investigative journalism has gone to the dogs in this country if 5 requests in 3 years is counted as vexatious.
In many fields and areas. I have yet to come across anyone who has received a totally honest or satisfactory answer to FOI requests.

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by lj on 30.05.14 16:06

@aiyoyo wrote:
You have made multiple requests for information relating to the Operation
Grange investigation. You have also engaged in voluminous correspondence
with the Operation Grange team
all regarding this single investigation.

Without a shadow of doubt they got this  info from OG.
The sharing of this info between OG and FOI office would suggest OG finds the request tiresome, refused to comply, and OG's communicated their negative sentiment about the request to FOI office.


You have been warned previously about the vexatious nature of these
requests.

Warned - emanating from who exactly?   FOI Office on behalf of OG?
FOI authority is an independent body that should not discriminate or rule against multiple requests as there's no rule against multiple requests is there? Especially if subject matter/s of request is different each time.

No matter what transpired between FOI office and OG, imv, FOI office should have been more diplomatic. They could say request cannot be met for X reason, without adopting bias or taking side.

Indeed a very stupid reply.

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by 1soapy on 30.05.14 16:28

voluminous correspondence with the Operation Grange team all regarding this single investigation.

Yes, too right. When you make enquiries to or of OG, TB, why are they always about this single investigation? Why can't you ask OG about the weather or street crime in Essex or the price of chips today or fly tipping on the Algarve? Why the obsession on this case when you talk to OG? I was at the dentist only today, and (thinking they must get bored with teeth) I asked her how to perform a colonoscopy and she was so obliging and very happy to explain and appreciated the variety of question. I went on to enquire about my taxes.

And another thing, TB. It's not as though there aren't other places you can go to enquire about the MET investigation into the case of MBM. Why don't you try.... errr. And... Oh, then there's. Have you tried crimewatch or 101 or your local police station?

Just stop asking appropriate questions of the right organisation about legitimate queries you are entitled to ask about - O.K.?! Clear enough? Good. Goodbye!

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Angelique on 30.05.14 16:53

Well yes I agree it's not a suitable reply to a request. Or that the reply is correct in toto. We should be allowed to ask what we like as it's our money.

Perhaps it should called something other than Freedom Of Information.

Something like QUANGO.


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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Guest on 30.05.14 17:07

I think the reply to TB was intended to intimidate. 
"You have been warned previously about the vexatious nature of these
requests."
I would call that a vexatious response.
It is totally inappropriate and unprofessional of them.

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by HelenMeg on 30.05.14 17:34

Section 14(1) can only be
applied to the request itself, and not the individual who submits
it. An authority cannot, therefore, refuse a request
on the
grounds that the requester himself is vexatious. Similarly, an
authority cannot
simply
refuse a new request solely on the
basis that it has classified previous requests from the same
individual as vexatious.
13.
Section 14(1) is concerned wit

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by sallypelt on 30.05.14 17:45

@roy rovers wrote:'You have been warned previously' - what totally inappropriate language for a public servant to use to a member of the public making a legitimate request as allowed by the law. This investigation is a joke. The people running it and those at FOI are THICK!

I totally agree with you, roy rovers. Add the unprofessionalism of Jim Gamble to this sad little lot, and one has to ask, WHO THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE PUT IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY?? What a shower! "You have been warned" What next???

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by noddy100 on 30.05.14 17:47

dantezebu wrote:I think the reply to TB was intended to intimidate. 
"You have been warned previously about the vexatious nature of these
requests."
I would call that a vexatious response.
It is totally inappropriate and unprofessional of them.
I agree 
I sent them a picture once of the last photo by the pool but without MBM in it and 
they replied in capitals asking where I got it!

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by noddy100 on 30.05.14 17:48

I know 'warned' what a high handed reply and use of language

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Praiaaa on 30.05.14 17:58

@noddy100 wrote:I know 'warned' what a high handed reply and use of language

shocking, but not surprising

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by aiyoyo on 30.05.14 18:18

@noddy100 wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I think the reply to TB was intended to intimidate. 
"You have been warned previously about the vexatious nature of these
requests."
I would call that a vexatious response.
It is totally inappropriate and unprofessional of them.
I agree 
I sent them a picture once of the last photo by the pool but without MBM in it and 
they replied in capitals asking where I got it!

Did you, by chance, ask them by return in 'capitals' how they got the last photo by the pool with MBM in it ?

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by aiyoyo on 30.05.14 18:21

@noddy100 wrote:I know 'warned' what a high handed reply and use of language

Beyond high handed, menacing in fact.




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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by SixMillionQuid on 30.05.14 18:24

"The Information Commissioner recognises that dealing with unreasonable
requests can place a strain on resources and get in the way of delivering
mainstream services or answering legitimate requests. Furthermore, these
requests can also damage the reputation of the legislation itself
."


What!???  what 

As far as I am know TB has made one request for specific information. There is no limit on the number of FOI requests that can be made. Who ever responded to this request is clutching at straws. If anything they're damaging the reputation of the legislation.

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Improper Conduct on 30.05.14 18:27

3rd time of asking.....was this response by email or letter ?

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Improper Conduct on 30.05.14 18:30

The reason I ask is because you must be the only one in the UK to get their post so early to be able to write it word for word online.....let's say your postman must deliver pre 6am ?

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Praiaaa on 30.05.14 18:32

@aiyoyo wrote:
@noddy100 wrote:I know 'warned' what a high handed reply and use of language

Beyond high handed, menacing in fact.




One good thing is that in this day and age it is all here, on the www, and everyone is aware. TB still wiser to avoid dark alley-ways, but at least We All Know - so he is safer.

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Improper Conduct on 30.05.14 18:43

Solicitor..(s)
Solicitation..(NSY)
Solidify..

Sorry, just thinking out loud..... cheers 

High five ?  shit happens lol! 

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Improper Conduct on 30.05.14 18:45

In plain sight....
 offtopic 

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.05.14 18:57

@HelenMeg wrote:
Section 14(1) can only be
applied to the request itself, and not the individual who submits
it. An authority cannot, therefore, refuse a request
on the
grounds that the requester himself is vexatious. Similarly, an
authority cannot
simply
refuse a new request solely on the
basis that it has classified previous requests from the same
individual as vexatious.
HelenMeg, I am most grateful to you. I am not familiiar with all the workings of the Freedom of Information Act and simply wasn't aware of Section 14(1).

The FoI Act can be misused, but I have clearly not done so. Just for the record, I have received no previous warning either from Operation Grange or the Met's FoI Act section about either 'voluminous correspondence or 'vexatious requests'.

The FoI Act was one of the better achievements of Blair's term in office; I think it should have gone further, but Blair later said that it had been too generous and that he wanted to cut back people's right to information.

I think it has been said that "information = knowledge = power", and I remember a slogan from the 1970s: "If you don't know what your rights are, you haven't got them".

The governemnt set up a review which has cost £7.6 million so far into the disappearance of a 3-year-old British girl in a foreign country. It has produced (so far as we know) no result in over three years. The team of 40-odd detectives on what is now a 're-investigation' had made many statements about its work on the public record. Whilst confidential details about a live investigation are nearly always protected from disclosure, some matters are not.

Grange have spoken about how big their squad is, how many trips they've made abroad, how many ILORs they've submitted and so on. If they've publicly spoken about these issues, normally we can ask questions about them.

My recent FoI Act question about the cost of the helicopter and the dig is an example. We can see that these have happened or are about to happen. It is admitted on the record that the British taxpayer is picking up the tab for all this. We are surely entitled to ask how much; all their expenditure, right down to DCI Redwood's allowances for breakfast, lunch and dinner in Portugal, must be recorded.  

By the way, I submit all my FoI Act requests on the 'WhatDoTheyKnow' site. On this site, you can check what questions people have asked and what the responses are. It's a very friendly, easy-to-negotiate site and I'd recommend anyone with a few minutes to spare to check it out.

And so to answer the impatient 'Improper Conduct' (how apt!), my questions and any answers are sent to me online via the WhatDoTheyKnow site, which notifies me of responses from the Met and other authorities by e-mail. 

Thanks again to 'loopzdaloop' on this forum who first told me about the site

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Improper Conduct on 30.05.14 19:03

Didn't you think of calling Shrimpton for aid ?
Legalities I mean....
Just wondering Tone

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.05.14 19:36

@Improper Conduct wrote:Didn't you think of calling Shrimpton for aid ?
Legalities I mean....
Just wondering Tone
OK, you are yet another arrival here who has zero interest in us finding out what really happened to Madeleine McCann, and I trust appropriate action will follow. I wonder why so many people come on here to distract from our search for the truth rather than to give active help?

But while on the subject of Michael Shrimpton, my strong opposition to his absurd purported information on what happened to Madeleine McCann is known, as is my comment that his fantastic theories, especially about a German spy network controlling the world, may be safely ignored.

But, well, talk of the devil, here he is on a criminal charge (last month, Southwark Crown Court) for supplying false information to the police about a German submarine trying to blow up the Millennium Dome (something like that anyway):

http://barthsnotes.com/2014/04/23/conspiracy-theorist-michael-shrimpton-prosecuted-over-olympics-bomb-claim/

...and here he is in a speech last week to the right-wing Swinton Circle on his favourite subject: German spies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2PutVrP1e0

He has a brilliant mind on the British Constitution and on British weights and measures legislation and, if you accept him as comedy act, he can be very entertaining. The vid's worth a watch (for entertainment value) if you've an idle 10 minutes.

I'm not sure how accurate his book: 'Spyhunter' (just published) will turn out to be though

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Re: FOI Act request about meetings between staff of Operation Grange and BBC Crimewatch - REFUSED

Post by Guest on 30.05.14 19:57

@Tony Bennett wrote:
The governemnt set up a review which has cost £7.6 million so far into the disappearance of a 3-year-old British girl in a foreign country. It has produced (so far as we know) no result in over three years. The team of 40-odd detectives on what is now a 're-investigation' had made many statements about its work on the public record. Whilst confidential details about a live investigation are nearly always protected from disclosure, some matters are not.

Conservatively, that's three hundred man hours a day that they've potentially got to throw at this.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

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