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Not a Whitewash

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by lj on 24.05.14 14:58

@Cristobell wrote:
@coati mundi wrote:I would like to be optimsitic about the chances of the truth about this case coming out, but I now don't hold out much hope.

However, should a patsy be produced, he (and I presume that it would be a 'he') I believe that a conviction at trial would be almost impossible.

I have worked in the past in criminal defence work and so know how how a trial works. A living suspect (who is not either of two most obvious living suspects IMHO  )would in his defence be entitled to call into evidence in the trial all existing evidence - including the PJ files, the Eddie and Keela evidence (despite what anyone else says, the evidence that they alerted could be introduced and Grimes coud be questioned as to what it might mean; I would also produce the video evidence in support of that point). There could also be evidence called from expert witnesses to attest to the reliability of the dogs).

The defence would have to have the right to call any witness to give evidence about what had happened on the night of 3rd May 2007. Should those witnesses refuse  to give evidence, they could be witnessed summonsed, compelling them to appear.  Short of a confession from a patsy, there is no way a trial could proceed on any proper basis without live evidence from all of those present on the night in question. That would mean that the McCs and anyone else who had made a statement (or statements!) could be called as witnesses. Under certain circumstances, their statements, subject to the court's agreement, could be read in evidence.

Imagine what that would mean for people who might not have earlier told the truth, or had changed their version of the truth.

If the McCs are not telling the truth, and SY are on a mission to obfuscate the truth, there are only two ways to tell it:

1. She disappearead and we don't know how;

or

2. She was abducted, but we don't know quite how it happened.

Either way, it would not pass the CPS test of a a "reasonable prospect of conviction".

I think that whoever it was that decided to cover up the obvious inferences of this case,  would happy to close it with the title of this forum " The Completr Mystery'...
But weren't the CPS involved when the case moved from Review to Investigation?  Why would the government spend £6m+ of taxpayers money if there was no prospect of a conviction?

That's peanuts considering what a scandal involving politici, diplomats and law enforcement would cost.

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"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

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http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by lj on 24.05.14 15:03

@Woofer wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Something has come to mind regarding mr amarals move from the case and taken to work in Faro ,where he decided the only way to help is to write his book on what he had experienced on the said case . So he resigned from the force and did what he felt he had to do . my problem now is ,if the local police and jp would not follow through and continue the search,but released the files for all to see .Why would they be doing what they are today ,who took a=over from mr am. ? was it not to pursue what was already in files ??? or to alter what had gone before . ?I know it was shelved ,where wetre they at ? at that time ?  So I feel just what are they following after the case was reopened,that could not have been carried on before? I just feel a bot puzzled ?  Hope all this makes sense for someone to reply  joyce1938


Hopefully GA will say in detail one day why he was moved but he has hinted that it was political.  It was also at the precise time Mr. Smith was due to come over to Portugal so whether someone did not want Mr. Smith to go is what needs to be researched.   GA was told about his transfer after Gordon Brown had been informed that he had been removed - so it could well have been GB who asked for his removal.   And did GB know that Mr. Smith was due to go over?

It was Paulo Rebelo who took over from GA - maybe he was more pliable than GA and took the case in a different direction.


Supposedly Joyce it is a completely different police force that`s tackling the new investigation - one in Porto (or is it Faro?).  I may have that wrong.  But don`t know if they are starting from zero or following on from the previous shelved files.

Political ??? IIRC Gordon Brown knew Dr Amaral was going to be removed before Dr Amaral knew.  sarcastic 

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by tigger on 24.05.14 15:13

@lj wrote:
@coati mundi wrote:I would like to be optimsitic about the chances of the truth about this case coming out, but I now don't hold out much hope.

However, should a patsy be produced, he (and I presume that it would be a 'he') I believe that a conviction at trial would be almost impossible.

I have worked in the past in criminal defence work and so know how how a trial works. A living suspect (who is not either of two most obvious living suspects IMHO  )would in his defence be entitled to call into evidence in the trial all existing evidence - including the PJ files, the Eddie and Keela evidence (despite what anyone else says, the evidence that they alerted could be introduced and Grimes coud be questioned as to what it might mean; I would also produce the video evidence in support of that point). There could also be evidence called from expert witnesses to attest to the reliability of the dogs).

The defence would have to have the right to call any witness to give evidence about what had happened on the night of 3rd May 2007. Should those witnesses refuse  to give evidence, they could be witnessed summonsed, compelling them to appear.  Short of a confession from a patsy, there is no way a trial could proceed on any proper basis without live evidence from all of those present on the night in question. That would mean that the McCs and anyone else who had made a statement (or statements!) could be called as witnesses. Under certain circumstances, their statements, subject to the court's agreement, could be read in evidence.

Imagine what that would mean for people who might not have earlier told the truth, or had changed their version of the truth.

If the McCs are not telling the truth, and SY are on a mission to obfuscate the truth, there are only two ways to tell it:

1. She disappearead and we don't know how;

or

2. She was abducted, but we don't know quite how it happened.

Either way, it would not pass the CPS test of a a "reasonable prospect of conviction".

I think that whoever it was that decided to cover up the obvious inferences of this case,  would happy to close it with the title of this forum " The Completr Mystery'...

I agree, coati mundi, but I don't think there was ever an intent to prosecute.

Just "nothing" will do fine.


Brilliant Coati mundi! (my mediaeval Latin isn't sufficient to decipher Coati)  although I hope for a fairer outcome such as the truth of which I have a pretty fair idea by now. One of my dearest internet friends is sure - or at least almost - that there will be a just outcome, so I sit on the fence, Not believing the SY review is intent on uncovering the truth and also not able to believe that despite all all that has been shovelled down our throats for the last 7 years, we will get justice for this crime.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by PeterMac on 24.05.14 16:47

If you were a middle ranking officer approaching retirement, and with a reasonable track record, who was approached on the quiet by  very Senior Officer and asked / told to do a ‘Review” on the clear nudge-nudge wink-wink understanding that it should come to nothing, what would you do ?
Would you collect some like minded old chums and colleagues, all close to retirement, sit around in a nice suite of offices, plough through a load of papers, make a couple of visits to the “scene”  and speak to a some foreign colleagues.
Would you then go back to the original Senior Officer with a Press Release like this for his authorisation -

”A team of highly experienced officers, with a combined Detective service of over 700 years  [the press love that stupid statistic !]  have reviewed every aspect of this case.
After long and painstaking work, we have been unable to find or to identify any useful leads, and our visits to to Portugal also proved unproductive.
Reluctantly therefore we have to conclude that no further work can usefully be done, unless some other credible evidence comes to light.
The case will never be closed, just as it is not closed in Portugal, but nothing further is to be gained by continuing with the enquiry.
Whilst we are sure that the family will find this distressing, we are sure that the general public will understand that there are many calls on Police time and that enquiries must be prioritised.”


OR would you gather a team of 37, plus support and clerical staff,
spend three years leaking nonsense to a known blabbermouth,
go on Television a couple of times,  
visit Portugal at least 20 times, and eventually go up in a helicopter,
compromise the integrity of the Commissioner by getting him to say there were named suspects and arrests were imminent
compromise the integrity of the DAC by getting him to plead with the Press for restraint at the time when something was going to happen,
tell everyone you were going to dig up a small town in high Tourist Season looking for a body

I don't know.
I can’t make sense of it

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Woofer on 24.05.14 16:56

@lj wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Something has come to mind regarding mr amarals move from the case and taken to work in Faro ,where he decided the only way to help is to write his book on what he had experienced on the said case . So he resigned from the force and did what he felt he had to do . my problem now is ,if the local police and jp would not follow through and continue the search,but released the files for all to see .Why would they be doing what they are today ,who took a=over from mr am. ? was it not to pursue what was already in files ??? or to alter what had gone before . ?I know it was shelved ,where wetre they at ? at that time ?  So I feel just what are they following after the case was reopened,that could not have been carried on before? I just feel a bot puzzled ?  Hope all this makes sense for someone to reply  joyce1938


Hopefully GA will say in detail one day why he was moved but he has hinted that it was political.  It was also at the precise time Mr. Smith was due to come over to Portugal so whether someone did not want Mr. Smith to go is what needs to be researched.   GA was told about his transfer after Gordon Brown had been informed that he had been removed - so it could well have been GB who asked for his removal.   And did GB know that Mr. Smith was due to go over?

It was Paulo Rebelo who took over from GA - maybe he was more pliable than GA and took the case in a different direction.


Supposedly Joyce it is a completely different police force that`s tackling the new investigation - one in Porto (or is it Faro?).  I may have that wrong.  But don`t know if they are starting from zero or following on from the previous shelved files.

Political ???  IIRC Gordon Brown knew Dr Amaral was going to be removed before Dr Amaral knew.  sarcastic 
Yep - that`s what I said lj - sorry if it wasn`t clear.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by ultimaThule on 24.05.14 18:44

@tigger wrote:
@lj wrote:
@coati mundi wrote:I would like to be optimsitic about the chances of the truth about this case coming out, but I now don't hold out much hope.

However, should a patsy be produced, he (and I presume that it would be a 'he') I believe that a conviction at trial would be almost impossible.

I have worked in the past in criminal defence work and so know how how a trial works. A living suspect (who is not either of two most obvious living suspects IMHO  )would in his defence be entitled to call into evidence in the trial all existing evidence - including the PJ files, the Eddie and Keela evidence (despite what anyone else says, the evidence that they alerted could be introduced and Grimes coud be questioned as to what it might mean; I would also produce the video evidence in support of that point). There could also be evidence called from expert witnesses to attest to the reliability of the dogs).

The defence would have to have the right to call any witness to give evidence about what had happened on the night of 3rd May 2007. Should those witnesses refuse  to give evidence, they could be witnessed summonsed, compelling them to appear.  Short of a confession from a patsy, there is no way a trial could proceed on any proper basis without live evidence from all of those present on the night in question. That would mean that the McCs and anyone else who had made a statement (or statements!) could be called as witnesses. Under certain circumstances, their statements, subject to the court's agreement, could be read in evidence.

Imagine what that would mean for people who might not have earlier told the truth, or had changed their version of the truth.

If the McCs are not telling the truth, and SY are on a mission to obfuscate the truth, there are only two ways to tell it:

1. She disappearead and we don't know how;

or

2. She was abducted, but we don't know quite how it happened.

Either way, it would not pass the CPS test of a a "reasonable prospect of conviction".

I think that whoever it was that decided to cover up the obvious inferences of this case,  would happy to close it with the title of this forum " The Completr Mystery'...

I agree, coati mundi, but I don't think there was ever an intent to prosecute.

Just "nothing" will do fine.


Brilliant Coati mundi!  (my mediaeval Latin isn't sufficient to decipher Coati)  although I hope for a fairer outcome such as the truth of which I have a pretty fair idea by now. One of my dearest internet friends is sure - or at least almost - that there will be a just outcome, so I sit on the fence, Not believing the SY review is intent on uncovering the truth and also not able to believe that despite all all that has been shovelled down our throats for the last 7 years, we will get justice for this crime.

The coatimundi can be found in parts of Latin America and southern states of the USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nosed_coati tigger  biggrin:   Coati Mundi is also the stage name of Andy Hernandez, percussionist and vibraphone player, formerly associated with Kid Creole & The Coconuts, who has become an actor as well as a musician of some note and, fwiw, when welcoming them to the forum I assumed that 'our'  coati mundi is a fan of the latter, as am I.

For the reasons coati mundi has given, only a deceased fall guy would suffice to close the case out and, no matter how many helicopters and diggers are deployed, I do not believe that such a body (no pun intended) will be found.

In any prosecution related to this case the defence would no doubt call Crecheman to the stand and for this reason I am convinced that, behind the obscured-face photo of a male shown on Crimewatch, lies a real life father and, further, that his movements on the night in question were found in the questionnaires sent by Leceistershire Police on behalf of the PJ to those MW and other holidaymakers who returned to the UK on 5 May 2007.  

In her bewk Kate tells us that on that date "Gerry felt sick. It was at this moment it dawned on him just how many people would be leaving the resort that day without being interviewed. It would run into the hundreds" and I suspect that her spouse's queasiness may have been caused by the realisation that one or more of those people may have been out and about in the vicinity of 5A/the Tapas bar on the night of 3 May and could have information to impart which they would only recall after their return to Blighty, hence the McCanns most extraordinary attempt to prise information out of Leics Police by exploiting the Wardship of their eldest daughter.  

Regardless of whether he is aware that the Smiths received considerable attention from agents acting for non-uncle Brian Kennedy, I do not find it at all remarkable that Crecheman has elected to remain anonymous and I can see no purpose to his identity being revealed other than at any trial which may ensue from the investigations which are currently being undertaken by NSY and the PJ.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Woofer on 24.05.14 19:00

@PeterMac wrote:If you were a middle ranking officer approaching retirement, and with a reasonable track record, who was approached on the quiet by  very Senior Officer and asked / told to do a ‘Review” on the clear nudge-nudge wink-wink understanding that it should come to nothing, what would you do ?
Would you collect some like minded old chums and colleagues, all close to retirement, sit around in a nice suite of offices, plough through a load of papers, make a couple of visits to the “scene”  and speak to a some foreign colleagues.
Would you then go back to the original Senior Officer with a Press Release like this for his authorisation -

”A team of highly experienced officers, with a combined Detective service of over 700 years  [the press love that stupid statistic !]  have reviewed every aspect of this case.
After long and painstaking work, we have been unable to find or to identify any useful leads, and our visits to to Portugal also proved unproductive.
Reluctantly therefore we have to conclude that no further work can usefully be done, unless some other credible evidence comes to light.
The case will never be closed, just as it is not closed in Portugal, but nothing further is to be gained by continuing with the enquiry.
Whilst we are sure that the family will find this distressing, we are sure that the general public will understand that there are many calls on Police time and that enquiries must be prioritised.”


OR would you gather a team of 37, plus support and clerical staff,
spend three years leaking nonsense to a known blabbermouth,
go on Television a couple of times,  
visit Portugal at least 20 times, and eventually go up in a helicopter,
compromise the integrity of the Commissioner by getting him to say there were named suspects and arrests were imminent
compromise the integrity of the DAC by getting him to plead with the Press for restraint at the time when something was going to happen,
tell everyone you were going to dig up a small town in high Tourist Season looking for a body

I don't know.
I can’t make sense of it

I don`t think many of them are approaching retirement - there was one fellow in the early days that looked in his 50s (the ones collecting the files from M3) but the others look to be 30s and 40s.  Andy must be mid to late 40s.

And if you, having had a career in the police, can`t make sense of it, I`m sure none of us can.

John Stalker wasn`t convinced of their innocence either.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Cristobell on 24.05.14 20:30

@PeterMac wrote:If you were a middle ranking officer approaching retirement, and with a reasonable track record, who was approached on the quiet by  very Senior Officer and asked / told to do a ‘Review” on the clear nudge-nudge wink-wink understanding that it should come to nothing, what would you do ?
Would you collect some like minded old chums and colleagues, all close to retirement, sit around in a nice suite of offices, plough through a load of papers, make a couple of visits to the “scene”  and speak to a some foreign colleagues.
Would you then go back to the original Senior Officer with a Press Release like this for his authorisation -

”A team of highly experienced officers, with a combined Detective service of over 700 years  [the press love that stupid statistic !]  have reviewed every aspect of this case.
After long and painstaking work, we have been unable to find or to identify any useful leads, and our visits to to Portugal also proved unproductive.
Reluctantly therefore we have to conclude that no further work can usefully be done, unless some other credible evidence comes to light.
The case will never be closed, just as it is not closed in Portugal, but nothing further is to be gained by continuing with the enquiry.
Whilst we are sure that the family will find this distressing, we are sure that the general public will understand that there are many calls on Police time and that enquiries must be prioritised.”


OR would you gather a team of 37, plus support and clerical staff,
spend three years leaking nonsense to a known blabbermouth,
go on Television a couple of times,  
visit Portugal at least 20 times, and eventually go up in a helicopter,
compromise the integrity of the Commissioner by getting him to say there were named suspects and arrests were imminent
compromise the integrity of the DAC by getting him to plead with the Press for restraint at the time when something was going to happen,
tell everyone you were going to dig up a small town in high Tourist Season looking for a body

I don't know.
I can’t make sense of it
I don't think there is any way this case can be covered up, there are too many people involved, and as one detective commented, relationships change over the years.  Are all the couples still together? are they all still friends? Are the people who assisted the McCanns in the early days still in power?  Can they pull strings as they used to? The answer to the last two questions is no.  We have had a change of government and a clamp down on police powers.  

As for the relationships between the key players, it would be a miracle if the 'Pact' has survived 7 years of suspicion, ruin of reputations and the constant terror of a knock on the door.  The McCanns have always been cushioned financially by the Fund - the friends haven't as far as we know.  If one or more of my closest friends got me into the worst trouble of my life, it would drive me insane if their faces kept appearing on my TV screens bringing the nightmare back again and again.  The longer it goes on the worse our imaginings, what the hell are they complicit in that they dare not speak the truth?  Or are they all similarly minded and without a conscience?  Seven years on and in a period of what must be intense investigation, are they all sticking to their original stories?

I fully understand why people think this will be a whitewash, but imo, it is simply impossible.  Theresa May could not have been clearer - she simply won't tolerate corruption.  This is the most highly publicised and controversial missing child case in the world, it would be insanity for Theresa May to form a task force with a cover up agenda, whilst clamping down on the rest of the police for doing the same thing.  The police don't like Theresa May, how long would it take for a disgruntled member of OG to spill the beans?  

I know people do not think very highly of the police at this time, but is it really logical to think that 37 homicide detectives are such bad eggs that they would overlook the death of a child to protect two not very likeable doctors?  There is no loctite seal that will put a lid on this case, at any time the truth could come out, therefore even if the detectives could get over the repugnance of what they were being asked to do, they would also be risking their careers, reputations and the respect of their family and friends.  Thats a pretty big ask.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Woofer on 24.05.14 21:27

@Cristobell wrote:
I don't think there is any way this case can be covered up, there are too many people involved, and as one detective commented, relationships change over the years.  Are all the couples still together? are they all still friends? Are the people who assisted the McCanns in the early days still in power?  Can they pull strings as they used to? The answer to the last two questions is no.  We have had a change of government and a clamp down on police powers.  

As for the relationships between the key players, it would be a miracle if the 'Pact' has survived 7 years of suspicion, ruin of reputations and the constant terror of a knock on the door.  The McCanns have always been cushioned financially by the Fund - the friends haven't as far as we know.  If one or more of my closest friends got me into the worst trouble of my life, it would drive me insane if their faces kept appearing on my TV screens bringing the nightmare back again and again.  The longer it goes on the worse our imaginings, what the hell are they complicit in that they dare not speak the truth?  Or are they all similarly minded and without a conscience?  Seven years on and in a period of what must be intense investigation, are they all sticking to their original stories?

I fully understand why people think this will be a whitewash, but imo, it is simply impossible.  Theresa May could not have been clearer - she simply won't tolerate corruption.  This is the most highly publicised and controversial missing child case in the world, it would be insanity for Theresa May to form a task force with a cover up agenda, whilst clamping down on the rest of the police for doing the same thing.  The police don't like Theresa May, how long would it take for a disgruntled member of OG to spill the beans?  

I know people do not think very highly of the police at this time, but is it really logical to think that 37 homicide detectives are such bad eggs that they would overlook the death of a child to protect two not very likeable doctors?  There is no loctite seal that will put a lid on this case, at any time the truth could come out, therefore even if the detectives could get over the repugnance of what they were being asked to do, they would also be risking their careers, reputations and the respect of their family and friends.  Thats a pretty big ask.
When you put it like that Cristobel, you`ve almost got me convinced, but just say its not just `to protect two not very likeable doctors` but ,say, a high ranking royal or government minister at the centre of the most despicable scandal - they would HAVE TO COVER IT UP.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Guest on 24.05.14 21:46

Of course. All goes back to the P word.
TB and GB for starters.

Mods. Im sure you will delete.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by SixMillionQuid on 24.05.14 22:06

@Cristobell wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:If you were a middle ranking officer approaching retirement, and with a reasonable track record, who was approached on the quiet by  very Senior Officer and asked / told to do a ‘Review” on the clear nudge-nudge wink-wink understanding that it should come to nothing, what would you do ?
Would you collect some like minded old chums and colleagues, all close to retirement, sit around in a nice suite of offices, plough through a load of papers, make a couple of visits to the “scene”  and speak to a some foreign colleagues.
Would you then go back to the original Senior Officer with a Press Release like this for his authorisation -

”A team of highly experienced officers, with a combined Detective service of over 700 years  [the press love that stupid statistic !]  have reviewed every aspect of this case.
After long and painstaking work, we have been unable to find or to identify any useful leads, and our visits to to Portugal also proved unproductive.
Reluctantly therefore we have to conclude that no further work can usefully be done, unless some other credible evidence comes to light.
The case will never be closed, just as it is not closed in Portugal, but nothing further is to be gained by continuing with the enquiry.
Whilst we are sure that the family will find this distressing, we are sure that the general public will understand that there are many calls on Police time and that enquiries must be prioritised.”


OR would you gather a team of 37, plus support and clerical staff,
spend three years leaking nonsense to a known blabbermouth,
go on Television a couple of times,  
visit Portugal at least 20 times, and eventually go up in a helicopter,
compromise the integrity of the Commissioner by getting him to say there were named suspects and arrests were imminent
compromise the integrity of the DAC by getting him to plead with the Press for restraint at the time when something was going to happen,
tell everyone you were going to dig up a small town in high Tourist Season looking for a body

I don't know.
I can’t make sense of it
I don't think there is any way this case can be covered up, there are too many people involved, and as one detective commented, relationships change over the years.  Are all the couples still together? are they all still friends? Are the people who assisted the McCanns in the early days still in power?  Can they pull strings as they used to? The answer to the last two questions is no.  We have had a change of government and a clamp down on police powers.  

As for the relationships between the key players, it would be a miracle if the 'Pact' has survived 7 years of suspicion, ruin of reputations and the constant terror of a knock on the door.  The McCanns have always been cushioned financially by the Fund - the friends haven't as far as we know.  If one or more of my closest friends got me into the worst trouble of my life, it would drive me insane if their faces kept appearing on my TV screens bringing the nightmare back again and again.  The longer it goes on the worse our imaginings, what the hell are they complicit in that they dare not speak the truth?  Or are they all similarly minded and without a conscience?  Seven years on and in a period of what must be intense investigation, are they all sticking to their original stories?

I fully understand why people think this will be a whitewash, but imo, it is simply impossible.  Theresa May could not have been clearer - she simply won't tolerate corruption.  This is the most highly publicised and controversial missing child case in the world, it would be insanity for Theresa May to form a task force with a cover up agenda, whilst clamping down on the rest of the police for doing the same thing.  The police don't like Theresa May, how long would it take for a disgruntled member of OG to spill the beans?  

I know people do not think very highly of the police at this time, but is it really logical to think that 37 homicide detectives are such bad eggs that they would overlook the death of a child to protect two not very likeable doctors?  There is no loctite seal that will put a lid on this case, at any time the truth could come out, therefore even if the detectives could get over the repugnance of what they were being asked to do, they would also be risking their careers, reputations and the respect of their family and friends.  Thats a pretty big ask.
Lots of people involved but the important things is the media isnt asking questions. That's why the T9 have got it easy for so long.

The review came at a time when there where cuts to police force numbers and I recall some officers were reported as not being happy with money being spent on the review while the MET had to get rid of police officers.

I dont think Theresa May was happy with this but the Sun / Newsoftheworld / McCanns campaigned publicly for the review and with Mr Cameron's help managed to twist her ear...now there's a review. And who better to announce this? Theresa May. So behind the scenes she may be gritting her teeth.

The McCanns were calling for review long before this government stepped in, as far back as 2009 I would say. They need to bury the conclusion from the archived PJ investigation and what better way to do it than with a pretendy semi-official 'review' - using tax payers money. As for the detectives, they risk getting punished severely if they step out of line, or starting talking about the case.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by galena on 24.05.14 22:12

@Cristobell wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:If you were a middle ranking officer approaching retirement, and with a reasonable track record, who was approached on the quiet by  very Senior Officer and asked / told to do a ‘Review” on the clear nudge-nudge wink-wink understanding that it should come to nothing, what would you do ?
Would you collect some like minded old chums and colleagues, all close to retirement, sit around in a nice suite of offices, plough through a load of papers, make a couple of visits to the “scene”  and speak to a some foreign colleagues.
Would you then go back to the original Senior Officer with a Press Release like this for his authorisation -

”A team of highly experienced officers, with a combined Detective service of over 700 years  [the press love that stupid statistic !]  have reviewed every aspect of this case.
After long and painstaking work, we have been unable to find or to identify any useful leads, and our visits to to Portugal also proved unproductive.
Reluctantly therefore we have to conclude that no further work can usefully be done, unless some other credible evidence comes to light.
The case will never be closed, just as it is not closed in Portugal, but nothing further is to be gained by continuing with the enquiry.
Whilst we are sure that the family will find this distressing, we are sure that the general public will understand that there are many calls on Police time and that enquiries must be prioritised.”


OR would you gather a team of 37, plus support and clerical staff,
spend three years leaking nonsense to a known blabbermouth,
go on Television a couple of times,  
visit Portugal at least 20 times, and eventually go up in a helicopter,
compromise the integrity of the Commissioner by getting him to say there were named suspects and arrests were imminent
compromise the integrity of the DAC by getting him to plead with the Press for restraint at the time when something was going to happen,
tell everyone you were going to dig up a small town in high Tourist Season looking for a body

I don't know.
I can’t make sense of it
I don't think there is any way this case can be covered up, there are too many people involved, and as one detective commented, relationships change over the years.  Are all the couples still together? are they all still friends? Are the people who assisted the McCanns in the early days still in power?  Can they pull strings as they used to? The answer to the last two questions is no.  We have had a change of government and a clamp down on police powers.  

As for the relationships between the key players, it would be a miracle if the 'Pact' has survived 7 years of suspicion, ruin of reputations and the constant terror of a knock on the door.  The McCanns have always been cushioned financially by the Fund - the friends haven't as far as we know.  If one or more of my closest friends got me into the worst trouble of my life, it would drive me insane if their faces kept appearing on my TV screens bringing the nightmare back again and again.  The longer it goes on the worse our imaginings, what the hell are they complicit in that they dare not speak the truth?  Or are they all similarly minded and without a conscience?  Seven years on and in a period of what must be intense investigation, are they all sticking to their original stories?

I fully understand why people think this will be a whitewash, but imo, it is simply impossible.  Theresa May could not have been clearer - she simply won't tolerate corruption.  This is the most highly publicised and controversial missing child case in the world, it would be insanity for Theresa May to form a task force with a cover up agenda, whilst clamping down on the rest of the police for doing the same thing.  The police don't like Theresa May, how long would it take for a disgruntled member of OG to spill the beans?  

I know people do not think very highly of the police at this time, but is it really logical to think that 37 homicide detectives are such bad eggs that they would overlook the death of a child to protect two not very likeable doctors?  There is no loctite seal that will put a lid on this case, at any time the truth could come out, therefore even if the detectives could get over the repugnance of what they were being asked to do, they would also be risking their careers, reputations and the respect of their family and friends.  Thats a pretty big ask.
I doubt very strongly that Redwood would sit everyone round a table and explain that the whole thing was a whitewash designed to cover for the parents.  More likely just tell them that the parents had been eliminated as suspects and they had to focus on the abduction theory.  Would you be so keen to be a whistleblower - especially if all you had to leak was information that has been available on the internet for years?  I wouldn't.  There's a lot of things about the senior management where I work that seriously piss me off but I've seen the way that they close ranks when threatened so I wouldn't take them on unless I had absolutely nothing to lose.  I imagine the police are just the same, probably worse. 

It's not as if there's anything they could do for Madeline, and there's no evidence that there's any other child's life at risk.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by PeterMac on 24.05.14 22:19

Perhaps someone should write to Teresa May.
The filter system round any Minster of the Crown would probably ensure that she never actually got to see the letter.
BUT

Going back some years - - - was it not Sir Humphrey Appleby who said that the Minister was DEEMED to have seen everything that was received ? ? ? ?

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Okeydokey on 25.05.14 1:40

@Cristobell wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:It's the great debate of case followers: whitewash or cunning ruse.

My head tells me time and time again: this is a whitewash.

Only my heart wants it to be otherwise.

I think you have to understand that the McCanns were saved politically to understand why it is a whitewash.

The McCanns were initially saved by political interference. It was political interference in my judgement that resulted for instance in a delay of three months in the Gaspar statement being sent to the Portugese authorities by the UK Police (whatever you think of the relevance of that piece of evidence, it was clearly crucial that it be despatched to the Portugese without delay). It was political interference that resulted in Amaral's dismissal. It was political interference that resulted in the Arguido status being lifted.

It was political interference that got this current Met Police "investigation" under way - an investigation that appears to completely ignore obvious deficiencies in the Tapas 9 account. Why? Why would any competent police investigators not query all these major  inconsitencies in the Team McCann narrative? 

One day, someone might write a book that explains it all. Not in our lifetimes I suspect. I think it's been a very complex interaction of media, politicians, judiciary, commercial, national and organisational interests, xenophobic stereotyping (as in "inefficient Portugese"), Irish/Liverpool identity appeal, Freemasonry influence... and many other factors.

People tend to always underestimate Gerry McCann's genius for orchestrating these interests in my view.
I agree the McCanns were saved politically in 2007.  The angelic face of Madeleine fitted the agenda of CEOP and the incumbent government's long term desire to have us all tagged and microchipped.  However, it must be remembered that most of the assistance stopped when the McCanns were made arguidos, although for some reason, Jim Gamble and CEOP continued to promote the abduction line, despite the suspect status of the parents.  It should be remembered that in her first term as Home Secretary, Theresa May introduced massive changes to the running of CEOP that forced JG and several others to resign.

This government's hands are clean in this case.  They were not involved in the cover up and Theresa May could not have made it clearer - she intends to root out corruption and the idea that she would allow the cover up of the most controversial missing child case in history in the lead up to a General Election, is ridiculous.

I think everyone knows Theresa May opposed the current "review".  She was overruled by Cameron - thanks to having his arm twisted by the Murdoch Empire. Presumably she realised it could never be a genuine review.

I am sure you are looking at this from the best of motives. Sadly, the reality is that politicians look at this in terms of power and their own personal advancement. If Murdoch and other press barons came out strongly against the McCanns e.g. investigating the way the funds have been used, then we would see a v. different reaction from the government.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by lj on 25.05.14 1:41

@Woofer wrote:
@lj wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Something has come to mind regarding mr amarals move from the case and taken to work in Faro ,where he decided the only way to help is to write his book on what he had experienced on the said case . So he resigned from the force and did what he felt he had to do . my problem now is ,if the local police and jp would not follow through and continue the search,but released the files for all to see .Why would they be doing what they are today ,who took a=over from mr am. ? was it not to pursue what was already in files ??? or to alter what had gone before . ?I know it was shelved ,where wetre they at ? at that time ?  So I feel just what are they following after the case was reopened,that could not have been carried on before? I just feel a bot puzzled ?  Hope all this makes sense for someone to reply  joyce1938


Hopefully GA will say in detail one day why he was moved but he has hinted that it was political.  It was also at the precise time Mr. Smith was due to come over to Portugal so whether someone did not want Mr. Smith to go is what needs to be researched.   GA was told about his transfer after Gordon Brown had been informed that he had been removed - so it could well have been GB who asked for his removal.   And did GB know that Mr. Smith was due to go over?

It was Paulo Rebelo who took over from GA - maybe he was more pliable than GA and took the case in a different direction.


Supposedly Joyce it is a completely different police force that`s tackling the new investigation - one in Porto (or is it Faro?).  I may have that wrong.  But don`t know if they are starting from zero or following on from the previous shelved files.

Political ???  IIRC Gordon Brown knew Dr Amaral was going to be removed before Dr Amaral knew.  sarcastic 
Yep - that`s what I said lj - sorry if it wasn`t clear.

Sorry Woofer, I jumped the gun. Too much to read in too little time.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by tigger on 25.05.14 11:33

@ultimaThule wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@lj wrote:
@coati mundi wrote:I would like to be optimsitic about the chances of the truth about this case coming out, but I now don't hold out much hope.

However, should a patsy be produced, he (and I presume that it would be a 'he') I believe that a conviction at trial would be almost impossible.

I have worked in the past in criminal defence work and so know how how a trial works. A living suspect (who is not either of two most obvious living suspects IMHO  )would in his defence be entitled to call into evidence in the trial all existing evidence - including the PJ files, the Eddie and Keela evidence (despite what anyone else says, the evidence that they alerted could be introduced and Grimes coud be questioned as to what it might mean; I would also produce the video evidence in support of that point). There could also be evidence called from expert witnesses to attest to the reliability of the dogs).

The defence would have to have the right to call any witness to give evidence about what had happened on the night of 3rd May 2007. Should those witnesses refuse  to give evidence, they could be witnessed summonsed, compelling them to appear.  Short of a confession from a patsy, there is no way a trial could proceed on any proper basis without live evidence from all of those present on the night in question. That would mean that the McCs and anyone else who had made a statement (or statements!) could be called as witnesses. Under certain circumstances, their statements, subject to the court's agreement, could be read in evidence.

Imagine what that would mean for people who might not have earlier told the truth, or had changed their version of the truth.

If the McCs are not telling the truth, and SY are on a mission to obfuscate the truth, there are only two ways to tell it:

1. She disappearead and we don't know how;

or

2. She was abducted, but we don't know quite how it happened.

Either way, it would not pass the CPS test of a a "reasonable prospect of conviction".

I think that whoever it was that decided to cover up the obvious inferences of this case,  would happy to close it with the title of this forum " The Completr Mystery'...

I agree, coati mundi, but I don't think there was ever an intent to prosecute.

Just "nothing" will do fine.


Brilliant Coati mundi!  (my mediaeval Latin isn't sufficient to decipher Coati)  although I hope for a fairer outcome such as the truth of which I have a pretty fair idea by now. One of my dearest internet friends is sure - or at least almost - that there will be a just outcome, so I sit on the fence, Not believing the SY review is intent on uncovering the truth and also not able to believe that despite all all that has been shovelled down our throats for the last 7 years, we will get justice for this crime.

The coatimundi can be found in parts of Latin America and southern states of the USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nosed_coati tigger  biggrin:   Coati Mundi is also the stage name of Andy Hernandez, percussionist and vibraphone player, formerly associated with Kid Creole & The Coconuts, who has become an actor as well as a musician of some note and, fwiw, when welcoming them to the forum I assumed that 'our'  coati mundi is a fan of the latter, as am I.

For the reasons coati mundi has given, only a deceased fall guy would suffice to close the case out and, no matter how many helicopters and diggers are deployed, I do not believe that such a body (no pun intended) will be found.

In any prosecution related to this case the defence would no doubt call Crecheman to the stand and for this reason I am convinced that, behind the obscured-face photo of a male shown on Crimewatch, lies a real life father and, further, that his movements on the night in question were found in the questionnaires sent by Leceistershire Police on behalf of the PJ to those MW and other holidaymakers who returned to the UK on 5 May 2007.  

In her bewk Kate tells us that on that date "Gerry felt sick. It was at this moment it dawned on him just how many people would be leaving the resort that day without being interviewed. It would run into the hundreds" and I suspect that her spouse's queasiness may have been caused by the realisation that one or more of those people may have been out and about in the vicinity of 5A/the Tapas bar on the night of 3 May and could have information to impart which they would only recall after their return to Blighty, hence the McCanns most extraordinary attempt to prise information out of Leics Police by exploiting the Wardship of their eldest daughter.  

Regardless of whether he is aware that the Smiths received considerable attention from agents acting for non-uncle Brian Kennedy, I do not find it at all remarkable that Crecheman has elected to remain anonymous and I can see no purpose to his identity being revealed other than at any trial which may ensue from the investigations which are currently being undertaken by NSY and the PJ.

Sorry for the long quote but it sort of hangs together.

Yes, - see bolded text - that must have been the reason why holiday makers were commanded asked to send their snaps to CEOP. Gerry promoting this brilliant idea with some enthusiasm. A special website was created by CEOP and Jessops undertook to scan and mail snaps from analogue camaras for free.



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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Cristobell on 25.05.14 12:03

If this were a whitewash, why dig for evidence that could totally incriminate those they are trying so hard to protect?

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 25.05.14 12:08

@Cristobell wrote:If this were a whitewash, why dig for evidence that could totally incriminate those they are trying so hard to protect?
What makes you think they are digging to incriminate the parents? (if they do in fact gig)

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Guest on 25.05.14 12:09

@Cristobell wrote:If this were a whitewash, why dig for evidence that could totally incriminate those they are trying so hard to protect?
The word 'evidence' is the most contaminated and abused word in this whole sad 'charade'.
Better get it out of the dictionaries and the papers in the future.
This McCann case made yet another victim. 
Evidence will never recover. Evidence is no more.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Justformaddie on 25.05.14 12:16

I'm hoping the pj  are allowing the digs because if they dig and find something it could be what they need to move forward? The pj have refused og a lot, but agreed to the digs (if it happens) IMO

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Cristobell on 25.05.14 12:22

@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:If this were a whitewash, why dig for evidence that could totally incriminate those they are trying so hard to protect?
What makes you think they are digging to incriminate  the parents? (if they do in fact gig)
Nobody knows what a dig would reveal HKP, but it is obvious they are looking for a body and if a body is found, it may give up clues as to who was responsible and imo, its not likely to point towards an abductor.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 25.05.14 12:30

@Cristobell wrote:
@Hongkong Phooey wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:If this were a whitewash, why dig for evidence that could totally incriminate those they are trying so hard to protect?
What makes you think they are digging to incriminate  the parents? (if they do in fact gig)
Nobody knows what a dig would reveal HKP, but it is obvious they are looking for a body and if a body is found, it may give up clues as to who was responsible and imo, its not likely to point towards an abductor.
Whilst I agree with you in principle we‘ve already seen in this case where evidence has changed from pointing towards the parents to suddenly becoming inconclusive (DNA in the car etc.). Nothing would surprise me in this case

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by canada12 on 25.05.14 12:35

I don't honestly think they're likely to find a body. But they may find evidence that a body has been there, or some other items associated with that body may have been there. We had a notorious case here of a serial killer who lived on a pig farm. He killed his victims (all women working in the sex trade who mysteriously disappeared after "partying" at his pig farm). He apparently then chopped up his victims and fed the remains to his pigs in order to dispose of their bodies. However there were still bits of bodies left, which he apparently discarded. The police employed dozens of volunteer archaeology students to patiently sift through every piece of land on the property, for months, in order to try and find artifacts tracing back to the victims, including bone fragments, etc. This is just noted as an example of the extent to which an investigation has to go, in order to find "evidence". The man was convicted, by the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Cristobell on 25.05.14 13:05

@canada12 wrote:I don't honestly think they're likely to find a body. But they may find evidence that a body has been there, or some other items associated with that body may have been there. We had a notorious case here of a serial killer who lived on a pig farm. He killed his victims (all women working in the sex trade who mysteriously disappeared after "partying" at his pig farm). He apparently then chopped up his victims and fed the remains to his pigs in order to dispose of their bodies. However there were still bits of bodies left, which he apparently discarded. The police employed dozens of volunteer archaeology students to patiently sift through every piece of land on the property, for months, in order to try and find artifacts tracing back to the victims, including bone fragments, etc. This is just noted as an example of the extent to which an investigation has to go, in order to find "evidence". The man was convicted, by the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
I'm glad they were able to convict him Canada.

I think the police must have good reason to believe they can find the body and I doubt the Portuguese AG would have given the go ahead to commence digs in a holiday resort at the height of the season if they were not digging for something specific.

Of course, the 'digs' may be a huge bluff designed to flush out those who are struggling to hold their nerve at this time.  The pressure on the main protagonists must be unbearable - many of them are probably looking at long prison terms and the urge to protect themselves may override any former Pact.  Some will be more guilty than others and may decide they are not going to take the full whack for something they only played a small part in.  Whilst they might be prepared to take part in a cover up, it is unlikely they would serve a long prison sentence to protect casual friends.

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Re: Not a Whitewash

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 25.05.14 13:20

@Cristobell wrote:
@canada12 wrote:I don't honestly think they're likely to find a body. But they may find evidence that a body has been there, or some other items associated with that body may have been there. We had a notorious case here of a serial killer who lived on a pig farm. He killed his victims (all women working in the sex trade who mysteriously disappeared after "partying" at his pig farm). He apparently then chopped up his victims and fed the remains to his pigs in order to dispose of their bodies. However there were still bits of bodies left, which he apparently discarded. The police employed dozens of volunteer archaeology students to patiently sift through every piece of land on the property, for months, in order to try and find artifacts tracing back to the victims, including bone fragments, etc. This is just noted as an example of the extent to which an investigation has to go, in order to find "evidence". The man was convicted, by the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
I'm glad they were able to convict him Canada.

I think the police must have good reason to believe they can find the body and I doubt the Portuguese AG would have given the go ahead to commence digs in a holiday resort at the height of the season if they were not digging for something specific.

Of course, the 'digs' may be a huge bluff designed to flush out those who are struggling to hold their nerve at this time.  The pressure on the main protagonists must be unbearable - many of them are probably looking at long prison terms and the urge to protect themselves may override any former Pact.  Some will be more guilty than others and may decide they are not going to take the full whack for something they only played a small part in.  Whilst they might be prepared to take part in a cover up, it is unlikely they would serve a long prison sentence to protect casual friends.
Again I agree however the protection you speak of, why do you think they protected their casual friends in the first place and would perhaps now panic into revealing the truth? Could the truth be bigger than just a bunch of doctors?

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